Hope R.

Excath - that baby is in college by now.

Please don't make this thread about PFAL. Please. That is exactly what is frustrating me. Start another topic.

I appreciate all your responses. I don't think some of you got what I was trying to say, and I apologize for not making myself clearer. Grizzy - I think I get what you're trying to communicate - and I agree. A lot of people who left early on have had a lot of time to forget the mud - and might not like seeing it when it's brought to their attention. (did I get it right?) And Jerry, I didn't see the fire either. But I don't need to know where the fire is or who started it to see the smoke. For me,(and this is just me, mind you), if, as you said, the incident "fits with the character of things taught", I will always take the victim's word for it. That is not to say I never have any doubts about some incidents that were posted here. I have. But again - I try to give the victim the benefit of the doubt. I don't need to know their real name in order to believe them. And I may be a bleeding heart, but I do not understand how anyone would need to know someone's real name in order to make their story credible. Masterherb - I don't think Jerry was being mean at all. I understand what he was trying to communicate, I just don't necessarily agree with him 100%. MJ - I have never doubted you. I don't need to know your real name. I know you have been hurt. I don't think you are lying. I understand your reasons for not revealing who you are. Not knowing someone's real identity has never been a problem for me when it comes to their testimony. Pat - I didn't think I implied that those who were abused were in denial. If I did, I apologize - it's not what I meant. The denial was in reference to the people who do not believe the stories of abuse. The fact that someone wouldn't believe your story and rip you apart as though you had lied is abhorrent to me. That's the kind of denial I'm talking about. The people who don't believe your story or mine. (love you, too!) Garth - I know not everyone who asks for proof is doing so to defend TWI. You're right - the shock of hearing some of this stuff may require more information in order for our own heads to comprehend it. But I could tell you a story about a guy who EVERYONE probably still thinks was the greatest guy in TWI, who made me feel like I was 2 inches tall. It would be hard for a lot of people here to believe because most people have had nothing but great experiences with this man. I couldn't prove it happened. No one else was there. Should I not tell the story because I have no proof? (I never have on these forums, btw, not because I have no proof, I just don't want to). And I agree no one has the right to be believed. But we don't have the right to say their stories aren't true without proof. Seaspray - I never mentioned any names. It has just been a general feeling of frustration. These forums are ex-TWI sites. And yes, we can present whatever side of TWI we want to, pro or con. But when people have been hurt beyond repair by the doctrines and practices of TWI, and a poster tells them to master PFAL or listen to old tapes of VP or read Blue Book - I want to SCREAM. They don't get it. I believe they refuse to see the other side of TWI. And I agree 100% with what Jerry said about PFAL. Go to the link he posted. It's an eye opener to those who think PFAL is akin to the Word of God. Karmicdebt said it - and I think I might make it into a poster and hang it over my computer to remind me not to get so frustrated... I'll repost it again because it makes so much sense that I'm sorry I didn't see it. Thanks Karmicdebt - drop me an email sometime - Hope R. color>size>face> "And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>

Ya know, Woodstock was a filthy, muddy mess. No food or shelter, not enough potable drinking water or bathrooms. There were over 400,000 people there - do you think many of them got to hear anything from the main stage? I know people who went that never even got close enough to see who was playing, let alone hear anything. Not to mention the bad acid floating around (?don?t take the brown window pane!?) and the heat strokes and the rain. In an article I read: "It was chaos, wasn't it?" says The Who's Pete Townshend. "I mean, what was going on off the stage was just beyond comprehension -- stretchers and dead bodies and people throwing up and people having bad trips.? But fast forward 30 years and ask anyone who went how they feel about having been at Woodstock and they?ll tell you: ?Man, it was the best! It was unbelievable! Nothing like that can ever happen again. Three days of peace and love and music. Jimi and Joni and Janis!? Except Joni Mitchell didn?t perform at Woodstock. She wasn?t even there. She couldn?t attend because of a conflict in scheduling. Most people think she was there because she wrote the song. But nope - she never sang a note at Yasgur?s farm! Memory is selective. We all remember the Rock of Ages like it was scaled down Woodstock sometimes. Peace, Love and Jesus. VP in a white suit. WOW burgers. Family Tables. Ahhhhh those were the good old days! And we remember all those marvelous teachings! The lame man, the blind man, the man with the withered hand. We?ll never hear teachings like that again! In reality, lots of us got rained on, our tents and sleeping bags were flooded. At the Shelby Fair Grounds, the flies were as thick as a rope in some places. Some of the teachings were downright boring. And some of the music was just awful. And many of us HAD to be there. Most of us worked our butts off and didn?t get any sleep. Some of us ran out of money, or lost jobs, or missed a wedding or special event because we went to ?the Rock!? Our memories of those days are selective. I?ve realized that about my Corps experience recently as well. I tend to only remember the fun stuff, things that make the glass half full instead of half empty. Then I hear stories from certain posters that bring back a lot of the reality of what TWI was really like underneath the sugar coating - and I see the empty half of the glass. It?s easy to remember the good things. I think it may be a defense mechanism for many of us. I think the reality of TWI is a very bitter pill for many people to swallow. Karmicdebt said it very wisely: ?Don't ever underestimate the power of denial. It is the mechanism that allows people to not see what is clearly evident to others. Sometimes the pain of reality is far too much for some to handle even though it is there in black in white.? I never thought I?d say this but, I?m glad my parents didn?t let me go to Woodstock. Hope R. color>size>face> "And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>

BECKI - I had no idea that was you! I remember your Trancechat posts! I was "Amie Friend" on Trancechat. Glad you're here again. Hope R. color>size>face> "Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>

I don't know, MJ... I see no reason for anyone who was abused or mistreated by people in TWI to lie about it. Maybe I'm naive. But I think that people who put their life in writing here at GS, and share their most horrible experiences with us have no ulterior motive. I think they want to help other people see what went on as well as get it out of their systems. There is no real purpose in faking abuse here. No, not everyone who posts here is mentally healthy. That's because we're all in the process of recovering from an abusive cult. I am one of the people who never saw a lot of what went on behind the scenes in TWI. The first 10 -12 years I was in were great. I had fun, met great people, and had a lot of experiences I will never regret. But I will not deny that while I was having a wonderful time, there were people who were being treated maliciously and abused. I give everyone who posts here the benefit of the doubt. For me to say "prove it" to them is like me telling them their life is a lie. They don't have to prove it. The fact they're posting it here is proof enough for me. Hope R. color>size>face> "Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>

Nadia Comaneci - the Romanian gymnast who scored a perfect 10 in the summer olympics. I remember sitting in a class that Gxxxxd Wxxxn was teaching and we were watching a tape of the competition. He distinctly said she was either seed or possessed because it was impossible to score a perfect 10 in anything. If I'm not mistaken - every Secretary General of the UN has been either possessed by a "5 Star General" debbil spurt, or was a "seed boy" - according to TWI. Yeah - Boutros Boutros Ghali and Dag Hammarskjold have me quivering in my shoes.... Hope R. color>size>face> "Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>

Or what the blind man saw? a rant in one part. (I didn?t know whether to put this on the About TWI forum or not? It?s not really about TWI, just what people think about TWI.)size> There are a few frequent posters here on GS who believe that because they didn?t see any corruption, coercion, manipulation, abuse, lying, cheating, stealing, or any other negative while they were in TWI that those things really didn?t occur. At the very least - they may admit that these things might have happened once or twice, but they were quickly corrected and everything was right in Way-World again. They want facts. They want dates. They want proof!!! It reminds me of those three monkeys - ?See no Evil, Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil? which is said of people who don?t want to see reality. Or think that because they didn?t see it, it must not be true. Frankly - I?m getting tired of trying to explain to these folks that just because they were deaf, dumb and blind to what was going on doesn?t mean that it didn?t happen! I?m tired of trying of to explain that, although you may disagree with someone?s opinion at times, no one can take issue with what another person has experienced. Unless you are calloused enough to call another poster here an out-and-out liar - what they are saying happened to them REALLY HAPPENED. They do not need to prove it to anyone. If I say I was mistreated by a certain leader in TWI, if I say that he or she ripped my heart and soul apart, I don?t care if you think he?s got sunshine coming out of his butt - HE HURT ME. Experiences and eye-witness testimonies can not be disputed. I heard LCM SCREAM at a good friend of mine for singing a song that LCM didn?t like. How can anyone argue with that? It?s a fact. It happened. Why does someone need the date and time it happened? What does it matter? My frustration level is at an all time high. I have tried to ignore these posters. I have tried to not respond to their posts. I try to skip the lengthy diatribes. But I can?t -- because I feel they are pointing fingers at people who were victims of not only sexual and physical abuse, but verbal and emotional abuse as well. What they are saying that these people have no right to make accusations if they have no proof. But they aren?t accusations BECAUSE THEY HAPPENED. They are reality. I question their motives. At times, I wonder if they?re not still in TWI - and if they?re not - then perhaps they should go back. Denial is not a river in Egypt. If these posters would only take off their rose-colored glasses, they might see how ugly the reality of TWI was from the beginning. But instead they question people?s experiences and still deny - deny - deny. I?m sorry - I had to vent. I?ve been posting on forums like this since 1998 and have never read anything like what has been posted here in the past few months - plus I?m getting over a nasty upper respiratory infection and feel pretty bitchy. As Charlie Brown would say AUGH!!!!

Could be, Ginger - he died at the end of 2001. I didn't watch the Grammys last year - but they probably did something then. I noticed the extras during Avril Lavigne's performance too and thought about all those big-wig movie stars and nominees who were sitting in the first few rows looking at a bunch of teenage backsides instead of what was on the stage. It really was unnecessary - and silly. Hope R. color>size>face> "Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>

But "The Rising" didn't win album of the year. Needless to say I was disappointed. Norah Jones is marvelous, but, IMHO "The Rising" was this year's best album. I think it surprised everyone in Madison Square Garden. If you closed your eyes when you listend to Paul & Art - you'd never know they were approaching 60. They sound the same. James Taylor with Yo Yo Ma made me cry. I need to get TiVo - I accidentally put my VCR on SP instead of EP and only got the first 2 hours of the show on tape. It ended right at the end of Springsteen's performance of "The Rising". Did anyone video tape the show that would be willing to send me a copy? Did they do a tribute to George Harrison? I caught the last half hour and saw the tribute to all the people who died last year, but Harrison wasn't mentioned. All in all - the two hours I saw were one of the best Grammy shows I'd seen in a long time. Not as much time devoted to ©rap as they have in the past. I'm sorry I missed that third hour. Hope R. color>size>face> P.S. Dot - we went to see Bruce and the band a few months back. They were incredible. I'd go again in a heartbeat. He's still got it - so does Steve Van Zandt and Clarance and Patti and Max. It's like going to watch old friends. "Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>

Didn't get my annual Christmas card from them and was wondering if anyone knows them and how they are. They stood up for us at our wedding and John & I were talking about them tonight and how wonderful they were (are). Thanks. Hope R. color>size>face> "Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>

Believe it or not - "The Shining" scared the poop outta me. Couldn't sleep after I saw it. When I was a kid "House on Haunted Hill" was terrifying... that vat of acid at the end .... ewwwww... But - and don't laugh - When I was in elemetary school - my friend Betsy and I watched "Carnival of Souls" on TV. It scared us to death! I know it's supposed to be one of those "Ed Wood" type movies - so bad it's funny - but it freaked us out. I couldn't get it out of my head for a long time. Oh - and let's not forget the ORIGINAL "Night of the Living Dead"! What a nightmare maker THAT one was. Rottie Girl - "The Sixth Sense" was a recent flick with Bruce Willis and Haley Joel Osmont... he saw dead people. Hope R. color>size>face> "Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>

CC and all - These documents are still available on the main Grease Spot Cafe page (Way Generated Documents). I think many people forget that the main site of GS is a gold mine of information regarding the events of the past 4 - 5 years in TWI. MTC - I stayed in for more than 5 years while I waited for my husband to see the light and want out. It was worth it. Had I pressured him into leaving because of my dislike of TWI, I feel he would have always wondered if he'd done the right thing. I wanted him to leave of his own choosing - not because of me. Thank goodness for sites like Trancechat and Waydale that allowed me to vent anonymously until we were finally free of TWI. I think I may have put more pressure on my husband to leave if I hadn't had those outlets. Hope R. color>size>face> "Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>

"Something" - and the lead is pretty durn hummable, too. I'd bet anyone could conjure it up in their head as easily as the lyrics to "Farther Along". "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" "Strawberry Fields Forever" "Back in the USSR" - c'mon - when you hear that jet sound - you KNOW what's coming next. "In My Life" Can ya tell I've been listening to The Beatles lately??? I'll stop now. Hope R. color>size>face> "Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>

NLL - oh gosh - forgot about that one. That has moved to #2 on my sad list, #1 on my tragic list. I could cry just thinking about that one, too. Hope R. color>size>face> "Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>

Oooo - forgot about Dr. Zhivago - that's a 2 tissue boxer, too - but takes a long time to get to the tears. Hope R. color>size>face> I get by with a little help from my friends... size>

And the winner of the two tissue box, sob-out-loud in the theater award goes to: "Beaches" - did you ever know that you were my hero? I can't even think about the end without starting to cry. "Terms of Endearment" is a close 2nd - I start crying when the doctor helps Debra Winger off the table in his office and says "what's that lump under your arm?" "Steel Magnolias" wins 3rd place... Julia Roberts dying in front of her kid... it manipulated me to tears. I thought about having a "chick flick" night with my girlfriends. I'd give each one of them a box of tissues and play those 3 in reverse order. Can you think of more? Hope R. color>size>face> I get by with a little help from my friends... size>

Excath - I think all of them were victims. Even the ones who recruited other women. Somewhere along the line these recruiters were taught that it was the right thing to do for the MOG (gag me))! I'm sure they didn't think that up themselves - they were taught the "scriptures". And I'd bet any amount of money that they participated first before getting anyone else to do so. So even though they may not have thought of themselves as victims at the time, I believe they were. I wonder how they feel about it now, so many years later? Do they still think they did the right thing? If they really didn't think or feel like they were victims back then, I'm sure now, 27 or 28 years later, they know damn well they were. Hope R. color>size>face> "Don't let the past remind us of what we are not now." - Stephen Stillssize>

My 15 year old and her friends told me to skip it... When it comes to movies like this - I usually take their advice. Hope R. color>size>face> I get by with a little help from my friends... size>

Long Gone - the judge did rule that the remaining 4 counts be upheld because he believed the allegations of the plaintiff's were credible. That included the "pattern of corrupt activity which included acts of assault and rape and breach of contract." No, he didn't make conclusions, he made a ruling. I'm not a lawyer, but if a judge rules that those 4 counts are valid, isn't he coming to a conclusion that these things might have occurred and that they were worth bringing before a jury? Oldiesman - I agree with long gone. Read the quote again - it doesn't mention just LCM - it mentions LCM, Bidon and "others" - and that the assault was part of a a civil conspiracy against the plaintiff. Had it been a criminal case, it may have indeed resulted in a prison sentence had it gone to trial. We will never know. Hope R. color>size>face> I get by with a little help from my friends... size>

Thomas Crown - please come back with more of your insight! You've hit so many of the valid questions most people who are still in TWI have - but might be afraid to ask. I hope you continue to ask questions, but I doubt you will ever get a straight answer. Hope R. color>size>face> I get by with a little help from my friends... size>

I agree Mr. Crown (welcome - loved your movie) - Too many people were hurt by the debt garbage LCM made mandatory. People sold their homes! Some people got divorced over it. People who contributed to TWI for YEARS were told not to come back until they were out of debt. People who had taken every class, sat through every program and given YEARS of their time to TWI were told they couldn't take certain classes until they were out of debt. Apologies? Gosh - I'm not sure that's enough in some cases. How about restitution for money lost when someone sold their house to get out of debt? How about reimbursement for vacations not taken, for cancelled piano lessons and disconnected cable TV - because debt was SIN and SIN couldn't exist in the fellowships? Oh I could go on... so much damage to people's lives in the name of God... Hope R. color>size>face> I get by with a little help from my friends... size>

Amen, Grizz I was thinking about the first time I started looking at ex-Way sites on the internet. The first one I came across was "No Way Out". The articles on there were old news. There was a big one about the stupid "Kansas Safe Hunters" class the Corps had to take when I was in rez. Heck - Emporia had been sold by the time that article came out, and most of us who took that class knew it was the same class they gave the 4-H club kids. Yet there it was - all this stuff about para-military TWI training the Corps with guns. I laughed at it. I was still in at the time, and didn't have much respect for the people who put that site together because there was nothing CURRENT on it. Every article was about stuff that happened 15 year ago or more. No wonder TWI wasn't threatened by any internet site until Waydale appeared - with information that was up-to-date and really eye-opening as to what was going on at HQ's and TWI's strange policies. That was stuff that even I, as an innie, knew nothing about. Hope R. color>size>face> I get by with a little help from my friends... size>

Thank you so much for saying that. I have been trying to put it in the right words for a few years now without insulting anyone or making it sound like "my TWI was worse than your TWI!" And you're correct - all discussions are valid about TWI 1 or 2. My observation is that since Mike appeared defending VP as the MOG and PFAL as the Word of God, much of threads on GS have become about those things. LCM, Rosalie, Donna and the law suits have all but disappeared (thank you Dot! Glad you posted that stuff). I think the current regime at HQ's is glad we're "dwelling in the past" because we're NOT talking about them! I'm not sure if I'm saying it the right way - I don't want anyone to think I believe that TWI-1 topics aren't necessary. I'm just asking that more TWI-2 stuff get to the top of the page again for those still in or on the fence. I guess I'm on some kind of personal crusade - and I'm much better at un witnessing than I ever was at witnessing! xoxoxo to Ex10... Hope R. color>size>face> I get by with a little help from my friends... size>

You're welcome Fresh - I have a ulterior motive for posting this stuff. Since Mike appeared and started up his VP/PFAL threads, many of the discussions on GS have been about VPW's research and TWI-1. I'm not saying that shouldn't be up for discussion - but a lot of people who are still in today don't know jack about VP, and really don't care. They were told some kind of fairy tale about him, I'm sure. But a lot of the legalism of TWI-2 really wasn't apparent in TWI-1 - and that's what is affecting people who are still in or who have recently gotten out. I can hear people mumbling "control freak" under their breath as they read this. But my opinion is that more needs to be said about what's gone on in recent years, and what is going on NOW! Like why Donna M. is still living in the log mansion in the woods? Like what are the so-called policy changes regarding debt and mark and avoid which have hurt so many people in recent years? How much of the ABS has been spent on law suits the past few years? TWI has been very quiet recently. Not much to talk about, not much to tell. In the chat room the other day, it came up that some topics were being re-hashed for the 10th time since Waydale started. But think about it - the title of WW's thread is "May I remind newer lurkers and posters"... There are new people registering every day. I would venture to say that most of them are either still in - or newly out. Those who have been out for a while have stated a few times that they were wondering what became of TWI and that's why they looked at GS. I'm glad topics about TWI-1 are continuing. They need to be for those who suffered abuse and humiliation during that period of TWI's history. For me personally, TWI-2 was far worse - and more in the forefront of my memory because I only left a little over 2 years ago. I need to reminded that as awful as TWI-1 may have been, TWI-2 continued to be as evil, if not more evil, IMO. I don't want them to be forgotten just because they've quietly slithered back under their rock... Hope R. color>size>face> I get by with a little help from my friends... size>