Hope R.

imbus - not only did he teach it - he taught it as "the original sin". Gosh - we need another topic started about the WAP class... so bizarre - I'm amazed they're still teaching it. As inaccurate as PFAL is, it looks like Shakespere compared to WAP.

I'm jumping into this late in the discussion - last time I looked it was about Craig's letter from 1989... :D--> Catcup speaks the truth about RP. Let me tell you the same tale from how I saw it. I was in Way Prod in residence. So was RP. He was the head of the Sickth Corpse Way Prod dept. He had his own office in Kenyon - backstage on the tip-top floor - which was more like a 2 room suite. There were several rooms on the 2nd floor - probably old music classrooms, where I would go to write and to get away from the crowd. There was always a pot of coffee back there, too - so I took advantage of it often. One night, I wrote a song that I really believed was inspired, I was very happy with it. I wanted to share it with someone. It was really late- maybe 1 or 2 a.m. (there was no curfew back then). I had seen RP and a single Corps woman, DS, heading up to R's office earlier that night. They told me that they were working on some lyrics that R. was stuck on and she was good with words. I believed them - why shouldn't I? Anyway, after I wrote the song, I went upstairs to see if they were still around to play it for them and.... oops! No, they weren't nekkid or anything - but they were in a bit of a compromising position - she was giving him a backrub, he was shirtless. No, I didn't say anything - I was in denial - there had to be a reasonable explanation for it, after all he was married! And it was only a back rub... Now, Uncle Hairy - I only knew RP from Way Prod. I didn't know him or his reputation when I was in-rez. Why should I? I was never in his area. I'm sure he did nice things for people - so did VP. As far as the other woman that Cat was talking about - I will also say that she was taken advantage of by several married men. I didn't know about it until our last year in-rez was almost over with, and didn't know about her encounters with VP until after we graduated. Was she complicit? That's a really hard thing for me to judge, knowing what I know now. Hindsight is always 20/20 as the saying goes. If you asked me this a few years ago, I'd say she had some responsibility for her actions, that she was willing, therefore bore some of the blame. Ask me now, and I say she was indeed a victim and was coerced with lies, deceit and a total mishandling of scripture to enduce her into these acts. I considered this woman to be one of my closest friends in-rez and can honestly say I still remember the times we were together with a ton of love in my heart. Shaz - from what I recall - when RP got caught with his pants down in-rez - he was made an example of and booted out. A few months later, an ordained 1st Corps guy who was running part of CA showed up at Emporia when VP was there. I thought he was just there for a visit. At our Corps meeting that night, VP announced to the WHOLE Corps that this Rev. had cheated on his wife and had been removed from his responsibility. Told us how awful it was for that Rev. to do such a horrible thing - breaking his commitment and all.... Think about it, VP made examples of people who were doing the same stuff he was doing! That way, if and when anything came up about adultery, we would surely believe that VP thought it was wrong - I mean, he punished the guys who got caught doing it! He could NEVER do that! How naive was I? (that's a rhetorical question, please don't answer!)

It was so good on Sunday night that I watched it again on Monday! The Tony/Adrianna story line was a real surprise - I never expected that one! Do you think Tony & Carmela will get back together again? I do...

Hey there Sudo! I googled "Deadwood" "language" and came up with a multiplicity of articles. Apparently, David Milch swears that the language was common for Deadwood in the 1870's. I don't know. The "c" word is really offensive to me. I'm sorry to hear that Carradine will be exiting sooner than I expected. He's a marvelous actor - and I just love his voice. He is the perfect Wild Bill Hickok, although I can't imagine the real dude using the "c" word like the character did in that one scene.

The way I figure it, Wild Bill won't get knocked off for a couple of seasons. Remember, each weekly episode is only one day in Deadwood. The first episode had a "July 1876" subtitle when if first opened up. Hickok didn't get killed until August 3rd of the same year. They've got at least 30 days left - which equals 30 episodes, and in HBO life that's about 2 1/2 years! Yeah - it was more foul than the last 2 episodes. The scene where Hickok attributes McCall's mouth to a part of the female anatomy was disgusting. I really thought Bill had more class than that. Friday night HBO is going to run all 3 episodes back to back. I might tape them. Oh - the NY dude's wife - my prediction - she's going to lose all the money and have to become one of "the girls".

Yes - and they have files on most of us. (HI GARY!!! MR LINDER!!!). Making a long story short - about a year (?) ago we received a letter from a higher-up at HQ's in answer to something John requested. In this letter were copies of some of John's posts from GS - old posts that had been deleted months before. Kinda freaked me out, really - I mean - who cares what you and I say, our opinions are our opinions. There's still a First Amendment in the Constitution - so I guess they have the right to keep our posts as much as we have the right to post them! But I'm a bit uncomfortable knowing what I say here is in someone's file cabinet in Ohio. Remember to use - IMO - IMO - IMO - IN MY OPINION - if it isn't a real, actual, able to be verified fact. If something happened to you - it's a fact. If you think VP or LCM are (fill in the blank), then preface the sentence with IMO. IMO, I think the WayGB should find something else to do. The ABS of TWI's current followers is probably paying them to watch us!! How silly.

Pirate: PTL, Circa 1984, was better than that!!! Words of advice for the chorus/choir (which is just SO redundant) - GET NEW DRESSES LADIES, you look like giant green circus tents. Words of advice to the Singin' Ladies - STOP MOVING AROUND! You don't have to constantly "walk" while you're singing - it looks stupid. No one does it, not even PTL, circa 1984!

Okay - I just had a TWI flashback from the Advanced Class I went to in 1995 or '96. When Howard Allen made that awful speech (which I've related about a dozen times), I remember something else he said- anyone else here who remembers, please help me out. I can't quote it word-for-word, but the gist was that "we" meaning TWI, were tracking down everyone who was using the name "the way" and making them give it up - that it was trademark infringment. In the context, I think he was talking about the "spin-off" ministries - but the way I heard it, he sounded like when they were through with the ex-way people, they were going to go after everyone else who was using it for profit. Does anyone else remember this? I know I'm not dreaming. Radar? Cat? Anyone who was at HQ's back then recall that happening? Socks - good explanation as usual. Just wondering... "socks.com" or "socks, inc." are broad, unspecific business names name. If you had "socks" trademarked, could you go after someone who had a business and/or website called "socks r us" for using your name as part of their company name? I think of Flowers.com. The site is actually called 1-800-Flowers.com. If you type "flowers" in google, that's the first hit. But then there is also justflowers.com and virtualflowers.com , aboutflowers.com, proflowers.com, wildflowers.com - and so on and on and on. Can "flowers.com" make them stop using the word "flowers" on their site or keep them from registering their copyrights? My confusion, I guess, is that TWI went after Pat for using "The Way of Christ International" because it had the term "The Way" in it - not the use of the domain name itself. Is that right? Personally, I think if it had been anyone else - someone who was not an ex-way follower, or someone who didn't have any type of religious affiliation (i.e. "The Way To Go Bobsleds, International") they might not have blown their lid about it. Darn, just type "the way" (without the quotes) into google and see what comes up! Then type it with the quotes - TWI's website doesn't even show up until Page 4! (There's actually a site called "The Way Home", and another called "By The Way..." all terms TWI has used at one time or another). Why aren't they going after these site owners? Sorta makes me go "hmmmmmm?".

dm - a post I wrote on Catcup's thread "At What Price?" I used other words instead, but was going a bit batty trying to think of the word I wanted to use. It's that old CRS disease that hits me every now and then. I wrote When I wanted to say: "I can only recall them admitting they were wrong when they "improved" a certain teaching - which was self-serving and disingenuous....."

socks - bingo! That's the word I was trying to think of.... thanks!

"If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve." *but thanks for the compliment, Dot - xoxox"

Right - like when TWI would admit they translated something wrong in order to change their doctrine - not because they were admitting their old research was bad, but saying their new research is better, and aren't we wonderful that we're able to admit we're wrong.... that kind of scenerio. The word to describe that action and/or attitude is:?????

thanks dot, but it's more like having an ulterior motive... if you know what I mean. Zix?

I've been wracking my brain trying to think of a word that means: someone who apologizes for something but the reason for the apology is that they stand to gain something from it. My friend and I have come up with: Opportunistic Self-Serving Expedient I know there's another word - it's on the tip of my tongue but I can't bring it to the tip of my brain!

Did you ask him if they cared about where the foundational teachings of PFAL emanated from? Does he even know about the plagiarism of BG Leonard's works as well as the works of so many others? Does he or she still believe in the "Way of Abundance and Power" teachings? That the Word IS over the World? He may blow off LCM's adulterous acts - but does he believe adultery is wrong? Agree with him or not, Richard Clark just apologized to the families of the 3,000 WTC victims. Does that make him culpable, will they sue him because he apologized? I don't think so. Therefore the arguement that TWI won't apologize because it will "open them up to a ton of lawsuits" is bogus. Besides, the statute of limitations has probably run out on most of LCM's acts of debauchery. What's their excuse for no apologies in this case? Actually, it might be a good time to come clean - it's been over 3 years since he was given the boot. But they won't. IMO, it's not in TWI's nature to admit any wrong teaching or any wrong-doing. I've never seen it happen, at least not in any genuine, selfless, unprompted way. I can only recall them admitting they were wrong when they "improved" a certain teaching - with the self-serving, false humility that tried to show how meek they were in admitting they were wrong - "but we got it right now!". If your friend has been around for any length of time - he needs a good dose of retrospect. I'm glad he's comfortable in his own little world. (Could it be LLP?)!

Think about it - even if they collected $2 or $3 dollars from every TWI follower in the state to give to the visiting dignitary - that's well over $1000 dollars in unreportable cash! I was never asked for more than that - and I don't recall gifts being given to visitors as much as "love offerings" were. (Except for a beautiful stained-glass window made by Mstar once - and an incredible wooden podium. Wonder where the heck those ended up?). Most of the time it was money. Of course, we never knew how much they received - but the envelopes were pretty stuffed most of the time. Didn't LCM get one of those stolen once? In AZ? I heard that story years ago - don't remember it well.

John told me that people who had registered movie star's names had to give them up (juliaroberts.com). I don't know whether or not they got fined or paid for them. When a new mall opened close to here, everyone was calling it "Citrus Park Mall". Someone I met had bought that domain name before they broke ground in anticipation of it being worth something once the mall was built. Well, the name of the mall was "Citrus Park Town Center" and guess what their website was called? Not citrusparkmall.com! So these people were stuck with it and eventually let it go. Someone close to me was checking out the registered domain name site and came across theway.com. This was a while ago - I think in '96 or '97, when TWI was still paranoid about the internet. Well, my friend found out that this domain name was owned by someone in England and they were selling it for $4,000. He told our LC, B** M about it. I don't know whether or not they cared about it then, but they own it now. I don't know whether they bullied the person in England who owned it or simply paid him for it. If I had to guess, I'd say that they paid him something. IMO ALERT! I think the reason they're hassling Pat is because he's a former follower. If someone else owned it, like this person in England, they probably would have purchased it. Maybe not for 4k - maybe they would have negotiated a deal for less. The attorney's fees are surely going to cost them more than they would have paid Pat for it. I think this is a grudge match - plain and simple. Since they can't go after him for content because of the 1st Amendment, they're going after him for the copyright stuff. IMO IMO IMO!!!!

I was still in TWI when I started posting on Trancechat and Waydale. I stayed as anonymous as possible and was able to vent my anger for all the things that were going on at the time. I never thought TWI 1 had been a problem - I had fun - everything was hunky-dory-dory! Once I got out, it took about a year for me to wake up and realize that TWI 1 was a nothing more than a whited sepluchure - looks good on the outside but is "filled with dead men's bones." I realized that VPW was that dead man. No one outside of someone who has been in TWI really, truly understands what we have been through. My bestest girlfriend, who I love like a sister, still is amazed when I tell her stories about TWI - and she's been hearing them for 6 or 7 years! When I say to someone here: "I was a WOW in Arkansas on my interim year", I don't have to give any explanations of the WOW program, the Corps program or why I would have "chosen" Arkansas (I didn't!). You all understand exactly what I'm talking about. For me - there is a lot of comfort in that. The chat room is another aspect of Waydale and GS 1 & 2 that is one of my guilty pleasures (guilty because I spend too much time there!). I have connected with old friends, made some new ones and had a blast not only discussing TWI, but talking about other silly things and laughing a whole lot! The other benefit of GS is that I can help someone who is still in, who comes here asking questions to make the decision to get out. I think since I've worked through a lot of my anger, that's my most important purpose for being here. That's why I try to post topics about current TWI stuff, because there are innies who still lurk here and who may just need a tiny bit of motivation to make a decision to leave TWI. I've heard from quite a few people who have lurked here for a week or so who tell me that we are nothing but a bunch of bitter gripers, that we need to get on with our lives and get over it! To that I say - work out your own salvation - this is where I need to work out mine - and it's been a great experience for me. I'm grateful to the person who started Waydale, and to Paw for continuing to keep the ball rolling at GS. I'd be very sad if this place ever shut down. Thanks once again....

Jim - I love it! Where in the world did you find something like this? Huh?

Zix - wasn't he gross? I can't believe that actor had b@lls to do that! (pun intended). That and all the peeing - what's that all about? I didn't think it was necessary to the plot line to watch Charlie pee and pass gas while he was talking to Seth & Saul outside the tent. And I don't think there was much added to plot when Swearengen got up in the morning and peed in the corner. It could have been easily left out and I sure wouldn't have thought, "Gee, I wonder why they don't show these guys relieving themselves more often?" Again, gross. They didn't need to use the "F" word as much this week because they made up for it by using the "C" word a few times...

Thanks Simpleton - I never thought that TWI would have a totally negative reaction to anything that had to do with Jesus Christ that was trying to be bible based - as was "The Passion". With all the hoopla surrounding the film, especially in the Christian community, they'd be stupid to critique it too drastically. It wouldn't win anyone over who might be taking a look at TWI. Instead, they make their usual comments, which don't sound that heinous. Remember, VP used to criticize Billy Graham for not giving anyone a "place to go" after one of his revivals (which, btw, was not true - but that's another thread). And I agree that they really don't like anyone to have a positive impact on an individual's spirituality unless it comes from them - or is promoted by them. A few years ago they promoted books by Larry Burkett on debt-free living. Of course, along with those books there were teachings to give it the TWI "spin" (Burkett doesn't think mortgages are debt). I'm happy for Mel Gibson. I'm glad he made money on a movie he was passionate about making. Whether his motives were spiritual or financial isn't really any of my concern. The fact is he initally made the film because of his faith, and then made money on it because he is a good film-maker and because of the incredible publicity the movie received.

Okay - I googled Wild Bill Hickok just to see how good Carridine was at his portrayal - what a ringer! And the pics of the real Calamity Jane look exactly like the actress. I also found out a bit of history. It seems that Deadwood is where he meets his doom on August 2, 1876 at the hand of a man named Jack McCall - who shot him in the back. The story is that Hickok had killed his brother. According to the HBO site - the first episode takes place in July of the same year. The show is historically accurate - though I still can't find anything that says they used the eff word so much. Gawd, tonight they made Tony Soprano sound like a choir boy. And the frontal nudity? I was surprised, really. I think that Milch spent so many years on NYPD Blue and Hill Street (among others) that now he has a chance to be on cable and is doing everything he couldn't do on network TV. I can't say whether I enjoyed tonight's episode or not. I'm going to stick with it until it makes me feel too yucky to watch. Swearengen is the devil - and actually reminds me of Al Pacino in "The Devil's Advocate" at times.

Joe - check your PT on Rafael's site - I posted back to you.

This is one that I wish someone in NJ could confirm because my recollection is a bit fuzzy. A couple had a baby die of SIDS. What a heartbreaking thing to happen. I didn't know them that well, and was young and didn't know what to say. I only know that I was very sad for them. Not too long after that, another Twig Leader told me that the reason this baby died was because the wife hadn't "cleaned her house out from devil spirits." Apparently, the woman had inherited an antique glass decanter with matching liquor glasses and a tray. According to this TL -this decanter was supposed to have devil spirits housed in it - and she shouldn't have had it in her house. That's what killed her baby. I don't know who gave this TL that information. But I know I couldn't believe it when I heard it. How awful for some damnable leader to blame this poor mother for losing her child BECAUSE OF AN OBJECT IN HER HOME! Sick - sick - sick... Please - someone that was in NJ from around 1978 - 1980 - fill in the blanks if you know them.

Something Catcup wrote on another thread got me thinking about the fact that TWI still calls itself a "research, teaching and fellowship" ministry. I can buy the teaching - even though I believe it's wrong. I can buy the fellowship, even if it is just for those in TWI's household. But research? When was the last time any research was done at HQ's? When was the last time anything new and exciting came from any "research department" there? The last time I recall the term "research department" being used was in April or May of 2000 when it was announced that LCM was going to step down as president to become head of the "rd". We all know that never happened. Does anyone know if there's still any research being done at HQ's? Are they sticking with the label because of the previous "research" that was supposedly done by VP? Or is because of the magnificent use of "literal translations according to usage... in the promised land of the prevailing word in the true sanctified household"? But really - when was the last time there was more than one person on the RD? All I can think of is about 7 or 8 years ago, before Wayne C**** left - and I think he was the only one in that dept. Catcup? Geek? Radar? Staffers? P.S. I don't even mean genuine research -IMO, that hasn't been done there in many years. I'm just talking about stuff they've come up with, like The Way of Redundance and Power stuff. Was that the product of any "department" or just LCM's own "research"?