Hope R.

When the latest BC came to town, we were asked to look over a list of PFAL grads here in the Tampa area and check off the ones who had left TWI in order for them to purge the mailing list. We'd been in this area for so long, that we knew just about everyone on the Tampa side of the Bay. There were hundreds of names on a thick print out. We didn't know too many of the St. Pete/Clearwater people, but I think we checked off at least 50 Tampa folks who hadn't been at a fellowship for a long time. I'm sure there were people on the list who took the class once and never went back to TWI as well -- not just the "cop-outs" they might have been looking for. Of course, they were trying to save money on postage - but the excuse I recall hearing was something about "casting pearls before swine". Ugh.

I was just in the chat room talking about this thread. Another person said they were at HQ's and didn't know very much about what happened at the time of the accident. I talked to another old friend who had been also on staff at the time and she never even heard about it at all. Now... if TWI was REALLY the "family of God"... if we were really in "the household"... wouldn't we have heard about it? Even if for no other reason than to pray for the people involved? I know if anything happened to my sister - I'd sure as hell know about it! And I would do whatever was in my power to help and love and care for her to the best of my ability. It just pi$$es me off that most of us - Corps or not - knew NOTHING about this accident. We used to have 24 hours of prayer for classes that were running for Gawd's sake... My turn to GRRRrrrrrr....

Quick question HCW - if you can remember... How many of Lead 104 stayed in the hospital after you left? Do you recall for how long? Thanks again for telling your story. You're a great writer, BTW...

I was telling someone who was ON STAFF at the time this happened about this thread. I asked her what she knew about it. She said that she never heard about it at all - until I just told her. I thought I'd get over being amazed at some of the things that happened in TWI - but now I think there's so much I didn't know about that - even after all these years - I'll still get shocked from time to time.

I love that movie - it's on my top 10 list of favs. I'm sure some cable station will be showing it over and over and over again all day!

Steve - darn it - you missed the "present truth" stuff... According to LCM - lesbian sex was the original sin and the universe is surrounded by water - like a baby in the womb. Oy.

I agree they believed most of what they were teaching - when it applied to us! But they didn't always practice what they preached, did they? For example, and you 6th will remember this... During our first year in-rez, T*m B*sh*p came from his assigned area in California to Emporia when VP was there. A few days after he arrived, we had a meeting. (I think T*m had already left the campus - I'm a bit foggy about my time frame - but remember the meeting). Anyway - VP announced that this man had been fooling around with a woman other than his wife and had been dismissed from his responsiblity as the Co-Limb Leader of CA. He told us how screwed up it was, and how much he'd hurt his wife, etc. This was at a CORPS MEETING! 350+ people were there! You would think that after publically exposing and degrading this guy, that VP would perhaps not be inclined to do the same, wouldn't you? Guess he didn't believe everything he taught. And then there's the whole "God is no respector of persons" so we shouldn't be either, teaching. All that heart-felt teaching that he was no better than any other believer. Uh huh. Perhaps he believed that there were 4 Crucified and that JC died on a Weds. and got up on Saturday - the boring research stuff. But I think there was plenty of doctrine we were taught that he (and others) may have believed was right for us - but really didn't apply to him.

HCW - please don't stop... I had no idea. All I recall hearing was there had been a bad accident during a LEAD session. Period. Nothing about how many people were involved or what kind of injuries they incurred. I didn't even know it was a car accident. All I knew is that everyone who was involved was going to be fine. For some reason - I thought it was an accident that happened on a climb or on some other LEAD exercise. I had no idea until right now. I'm sure I'm not the only one - Corps or non-Corps - who was in the dark about this. Please go on....

Catcup - When John S. was in Tampa a few years ago, I asked him the same questions about LCM & VP. He told me much of the same thing he told you. He told me he didn't know about LCM until it was announced and didn't know about VP until after he left TWI. And as you stated - he also told me he wasn't considered "Corps" by LCM and therefore was not in the "inner circle". I believed him - no reason not to. I wasn't a part of CFF and didn't intend to be a part of it - and I believe he knew that. I was at the meeting just to say hello to him and Mary Lou because I like them and it was nice to see them. I never heard the teaching where he announced that adultary was wrong - but I don't doubt he said it. I didn't post it before because it was a private conversation and I didn't feel quite right about it. I figured he'd had that question asked of him a hundred times, so I'm glad you shared what he had to say. John Shroyer is a very nice man - salt of the earth type of guy. There's never been a time I didn't like him. But I'm like Exie - If it looks like The Way, sounds like The Way, and feels like The Way then.... NO WAY for me! :P-->

I always believed that anyone who was or had been clergy at HQ's - especially from the late 70's til VP died - had to know about the sexual misconduct that was going on there. As far as I'm concerned - if they knew about it - even if in their heart of hearts they knew it was wrong - and did NOTHING - they were complicit just by keeping their mouths shut. Even if they never did it themselves - they condoned it by saying and doing nothing. They approved VP's actions by their silence. Most of the splinter groups that are in existance today are run by the men who were at HQ's or on staff during that time. Have any of these men come out and admitted they knew what was going on? Have any of these so-called ministries taught that what happened was WRONG? Have they admitted that there was sexual misconduct in TWI at all? I don't know the answer. But I think any of these guys who are running one of these off-shoots should come out and admit what they knew, how long they knew it and that it was WRONG. Period. That's one of the many reasons I won't go near a splinter group - I haven't heard anyone come out and say "VP was f**king women and I knew it. I'm really gut-wrenchingly sorry I did nothing to stop it." I doubt I'd join up with one even if that happened - but I'd sure have a lot more respect for the person who admitted it.

I've told this story before, but here goes: It was 1978. I had been at my assignment in NJ for a few months when I got a call from one of my best Corps girlfriends who had been assigned to the Atlanta area. She told me she was in NJ and asked if she could come see me - she wanted to tell me something. When she got to my apartment, she proceeded to tell me what had happened on her interim year when she was a WOW in State College, PA. What she told me made my head spin. I’m not going to go through all the details - it’s all on John Juedes’ site. (Marsha's Story) Anyway, she told me that when she went to VP’s coach - he first asked her to give him a back rub and then turned over on his back and told her to finish the job. She went on to tell me that he had intercourse with her several times after the first incident. He has convinced her that it was “on the Word”, and that she had a “ministry” for it. She told me that she had decided to leave TWI, and was telling all those who were close to her why. After she left I was pretty shaken up. The next day, I called Vince F. to tell him about what had happened. The first thing he asked me was “Well, do you believe her?” I told him I didn’t know what to believe - that I was upset and confused. That her story was pretty detailed - and didn’t it sound like she made it up. He then said something like “You know a deceiving spirit has to first deceive the person they’re in before they can deceive you.” He then went on to tell me about all the devil spirits my friend had around and in her. Not just deceiving, but charming, and lying and a whole bunch of others. He told me that VP had invited her to HQ’s to stay on staff until she could get healed - but she refused. So what did that tell me? I hate to say it but it was the only reasonable alternative to believing that her story was true - and I swallowed it. Fast forward 6 or 7 years… It was after VP was dead - I was at a Corps week hanging out with a group of women - just talking, laughing and “sharing hearts”. I don’t know how it came up, but a girl who was in the 9th Corps who I didn’t really know very well started to tell us about her experiences with VP. I got chills down my spine - her story was almost exactly the same story I’d heard from my friend years before. Another woman chimed in and told us that she’d heard about another woman who had the same thing happen. At that moment, I knew all the stories were true. I felt so frikkin miserable. I swore that if I ever heard from my friend again - I would beg her forgiveness. It took the internet for me to find her. She had posted her story on John Juedes’ site. When I saw it, I started to cry. I was posting under my assumed name at the time because I was still in TWI.. I wrote to John Juedes and told him my predicament - I asked him to send my friend my email and phone number. When I apologized to her a whole lot of guilt was lifted off my shoulders - and it was so nice to talk to her again. I think about how naïve and gullible I was - and yes - brainwashed to a certain extent. Brainwashed to believe that the MOG could NEVER do anything like that. It HAD to be a lie. Brainwashed to believe that my friend was chock full of devil spirits. Brainwashed enough to stick around for 15 more years. I’m sorry to say we haven’t kept in touch. But I think of her when often - especially when threads like this appear on GS and hope all is well with her.

Hey TommyT - I moved to WBP in Oct. of 1980 with Donnie & Patty G. I met John in November. He lived in Tampa. Don't think I witnessed much - spent most of my time travelling back and forth between WPB and Tampa! I finally moved here in July of 1981. Wish we woulda crossed paths back then.

Galen - You're right - the Branch Leaders were corps - but they didn't make the call. The Louisiana Limb guy was the one who called them to WARN them about this guy. That's the way it usually worked. The old leaders called the new ones with the "dirt". Or they were told at some meeting or the ROA. Otherwise, you're right, no one called to "check up" on people for the most part. I don't understand what you mean by "No body could be called to check on us"... Did the people who kicked you out in '80 and '93 leave the area you had been in? We are not on any list of M&A either - we never even got a letter. It was spread around by word-of-mouth that we got kicked out. The reasons were revealed to the people who TWI believed "needed to know". You know how that fire spreads?

Socks - geez - now I've got VP's voice in my head..... pee-pul.... dontcha know.... (snap! snap!)... ugh.

Highway - that brings up another question... How many people ended up settling in the area they were sent to by TWI - even after you weren't involved anymore? Hard for me to answer, because the last time I was "assigned" anywhere, we were allowed the privilege of picking where it was we wanted to go. I moved to W. Palm Beach in 1980 to "open the area" with some friends - met John then moved to Tampa in 1981 and have been here since. We were never asked to move or take another assignment until the mid 90's. We said no and were dropped from the Corps.

I was in for 29 years and moved 11 times. This does include going from Emporia then to Arkansas for my interim year and then back to Emporia again. I can't remember all the physical moves I made - going from campus to campus, Way Home to Way Home, etc. Musta blocked it all out.

To those of you who were in TWI for more than 5 years - how many times did you move to another area? That incudes going WOW, Corps (including interim year), or just going to another area of "concern, interest and need". This doesn't include moving from one house to another in the same town. If you were in-rez - and were relocated from one campus to another - don't include that either. Thanks! It's hard to do a poll like this because some of us were in for more years than others. If you could answer the poll and then post the number of years you were in and how many times you moved, it would be appreciated.

Galen - First of all, I think that the "average" believer did move around a lot. I only know a few folks who were in TWI for any amount of time who stayed in the same place they got involved in. Even though I went through the Way Corps, I wasn't an insider at all. Some of these reputations were simply known because TWI was really a small place. If you moved around a lot like I did, you got to know a lot of people - whether you were in the Corps or not. I would hear things about certain leaders like "man, you don't want to get sent WOW to THAT state - Mr. Big is there and he's a mean SOB". Or, "watch out for that department head [at HQ's] -- she's really tough to work for..." The other side of the reputation coin is that there were many "Joe Believers" who had certain qualities pinned on them because of a mistake or two they might have made in the past. When I came to Florida, there was a wonderful guy in the West Palm branch named Tom who had recently moved there from Lousiana. I mean, this guy was the salt of the earth - one of the nicest, funniest people I have ever met. Well, it seems that the Limb leader of LA called Tom's current branch leaders and told them all kinds of awful crap that he had apparently done in LA - and to watch out for him. I gotta give the Florida branch leaders credit. They saw the innate goodness of this man and instead of making him a TWI pariah, they sat down and told him about the call - asked him about the accusations and found out that his old Limb Leader just plain hated his guts because Tom had stood up to him a couple of times. So anything Tom did wrong was magnified and passed around the state to the point that he felt like he had to move away and start fresh again. The good news is that he moved to an area where we all loved him to pieces! If anyone tried to tell any of us about his past - we'd tell them we didn't know who they were talking about - it must be some other guy named Tom.

It seems there has been a lot of discussion about certain ex-TWI individuals lately. Initals were posted, but most of us who knew these people quite easily figured out who they were. It got me thinking about reputations. Certain leaders were known to be "hard-a$$es", others were known to be incompetent - a couple were heavy drinkers. Some had good reputations as well - but that's not part of this discussion (Joe G. comes to mind). TWI was a small group - things got around. Three or four degrees of seperation at most, IMO. And there was even a smaller connection in the the Way Corps. I never "served" with the ordained woman who was mentioned on another thread - but I knew exactly who it was before I saw the initials ("address me as Miss so-and-so" gave it away). She had a reputation. Not a good one either. I'm wondering... if most of us knew about these personality flaws - whether by experience or word-of-mouth - why didn't any of us say anything? And if we heard about these people - can we assume that the Grand Poobahs at HQ's knew about them as well? I know of one Limb guy in the NE who got ratted out by the Corps in his state for excessive drinking and messing around with women other than his wife (betcha some of you know who I'm talking about). Other than him, most reputations were whispered about, or discussed in small groups of people you had to know really, really well. Does anyone else remember this besides me?

CAUTION: De-railment about to occur.... Abi - you've got to read "The Plot Against America" by Phillip Roth. I'm not finished with it yet - but it's a fascinating tale so far. The premise is that FDR didn't win re-election in 1940 - instead, Charles Lindbergh, who was said to be a Nazi sympathizer and and anti-semite, was elected president. Yana wrote: I always felt that his claim to reading thousands of books was either an exaggeration or an out and out lie. Remember, the ones he burned once Gawd told him he'd teach him the word and yada yada yada??? I believe he was highly influenced by the more educated young people who flattered and pandered to him. Sunesis - Didn't the Hayes G. have something to do with some of that conspiracy/new constitution stuff, too? Roses are redish, violets are bluish, if it wasn't for Jesus, you too would be JEWISH!

Dang it Johnnie - now all I can think of is Ethel Merman.... :D-->

Funny, "The Thirteenth Tribe" didn't offend me like "The Myth of the Six Million" did. I'm also descended from Ashkenazi Jews. My grandparents were from Germany, Romania, Poland,and Russia. My mom's folks spoke Yiddish (I only know the cuss words!). I always thought that Koestler's theory was possible - that the Jews of The Pale were converted Khazars. But then again - there's the possiblity that they might be the real thing. Remember, the twelve tribes were "scattered abroad". Who knows where they ended up? And if they were Khazarian converts - so what? There are Ethopian Jews and Sephardic Jews who may or may not be direct descendants of Jacob any more than the Ashkenazi Jews are. And, IMO, what makes someone Jewish isn't blood - it's in how one worships God. If Jews are a "race" of people, then why did they so easily assimilate into the cultures of the countries they lived in? Why do we say "African American" and "Italian American" but not "Jewish American"? Because it's a RELIGION - we don't say "Catholic American" either. Anyway - there's another book titled "Jews, God and History" by Max I. Dimont that I highly recommend if you're interested in Jewish History.(check it out on Amazon.com - read an excerpt) I think that Koestler's book fed into VP's Anti-Semitism - but I also don't think he gave it too much thought. I wonder if he even read it or just had someone give him the "Reader's Digest" version. He probably thought it was written by the same type of people who wrote "The Myth..." I didn't get that from Koestler's book at all.

I have to agree with Grasshopper - the Corpse from the 90's were the worst Goose-stepping folks I've ever seen. I'm not saying there weren't hard-@ss people in the earlier years - but I think there were more good, kind, caring individuals than there were control-freaks (as many have stated here). The "Nazis" stood out to those of us who weren't that way. We knew who they were - we talked about them. ("Gawd - I'm so glad I didn't get sent to Florida, I couldn't stand being under (fill in the blank)'s leadership!") In the 90's, as the Corps grew smaller, the people who signed up were more likely to be Kool-Aid drinkers - not people who thought they were going into the Corps to help others and "move the Word" like many of us did in the earlier years. They were people who aspired to be "dog soldiers for the truth", "committed disciples in the household", "prevailing ministers", etc. Not much was mentioned about love and giving and healing. I had a few bad experiences with some of these "Corps Nazis". One took place at the Advanced Class in 1995. I hadn't been to Rome City in 20 years and was feeling quite nostalgic about the "good old days" when I was there for the class. I told some stories to a few of the women in my room about the time when "Craig" did this, that or the other thing. Later that week, a Corps woman approached me. She said that one of my roomates was in her A/C fellowship and was upset that I had referred to Rev-er-end-Mar-tin-dale as "Craig", that it was disrespectful and WHO did I think I was, etc. Needless to say, I was disgusted. She didn't know me from Adam. I'd never seen her before either. So I got b!tchy. I told her that when I was in residence that everyone called Rev-er-end-Mar-tin-dale "Craig" and he never had a problem with it. She then told me that it was an "old wineskin" and wondered where I was coming from. Since I was stuck in R/C without transportation and had to last another few days, I turned on my Stepford charm and told her I was sorry that it offended my roommate and that I'd be more careful around her from that point on. I was also reproved by another Corps Hitler Youth when I made a comment about being sick of the "Singing Ladies" music at every session and meal. I knew that was a mistake the minute I heard myself say it!

I was still in in 1998 when a friend who had been out of TWI for quite some time told me about the Trancechat forums. I had wanted to leave for a few years - and finding Trancechat was my "cold waters to a thirsty soul". The first night I found it, I stayed up all night reading the archives. A lot of it was pretty rough stuff. Some people would get down-right nasty with each other. Because there was little moderation and no screen names or password protection, I could sign on as anyone I wanted - even another poster! There were a lot of problems, but it was all that was around, and it served its purpose at the time. I started posting as "A_Friend". Then Karl K. asked me if I was a "girl" friend or a "boy" friend - so I called myself "Amie Friend", and stayed that way until the night I left TWI. When Trancechat closed - I was almost frantic. It was my only link to ex-Way people and an incredible outlet for my "innie" frustrations. But it was only a week or two and Waydale was up and running. There was a guest book at first - and the Documents section. The forum came a bit later. I loved the original Waydale chat room. The night we got kicked out of TWI, I went into the room and chatted under my real name - letting everyone know I was finally out! Grease Spot, of course, was practically an extension of Waydale - Paw didn't miss a beat so there was no down-time between the sites. I think all three sites have proven to be a haven for those of us who didn't have anyone to "talk" to who could understand our TWI involvement and the effects it had on our lives. The fact that GS is still up and running strong and that so many people lurk and post here says volumes about the need for it to continue to exist.

Sky - I think what you're thinking of is the after POP staff. After the first great exodus of the late 80's, there weren't many staffers at HQ's who were Way Corps. So they lowered their standards! They would take anyone who was an A/C grad for a while. The folks who left our area to have the "privilege" of living on the farm had to make at least a 2 year commitment. I guess if they worked out, they'd be asked to stay longer. But for quite a few years there was not 100% Corps on staff - there weren't enough Corps to fill the positions left by the "cop-outs" --> ! I think TWI had more than two sides to it. Heck, Way Productions was in its own little world - and I don't think they fit into either of your original catagories. Think about all the "worker bees" - those who weren't doing the business/organizational/professional side of TWI. Housekeeping, Way Builders, Grounds Crew to name a few. They all had to be Corps Grads, too when TWI got bigger. But after POP, I think they were lucky to get anyone they felt was worthy enough to clean the toilets in the BRC!