Hope R.

I agree for the most part, Linda. There was lots of giggling and pond-tossing. I was told it was to relieve the stress from the "heaviness" of the Advanced Class that summer of 1973. Personally, I thought it was hysterical. I will never forget Randy F**se and Barry J. in those robes, pointing the way to the campfire like the Ghosts of Christmas-Yet-To Come. They looked at me and said - "Ah... Neophyte"! I thought I was going to go in that nasty pond like others before me, but someone came to my rescue and told them I'd been initiated already! (they'd done it a few weeks before during Summer School). Looking back - yeah, it was wierd, but I don't think it was "devilish". I don't think it was ever done again after that summer. Anyway - I have funny memories of it - but, unlike Dot, I never ate the Indian Turnip. The same person who saved me from the pond told me to toss it... and I owe him my eternal gratitude!

When I think about it... I can only name a handful of people who showed me genuine kindness in my 29 years in TWI. My context is kindness in time of need - not just nice or kind people in general. Like Dot said - I can think of the unkindnesses as well -- and there are more than a handful of people who are guilty of that - also in time of need. Of the kind ones, I will put Joe G***ini at the top of my list. He immediately came to my mind. He was the real deal. But folks like him were few and far between in TWI.

Igotout and I have been away from internet access for about a week. I only skimmed the posts on the last 3 or 4 pages, so if I repeat some of the points that have already been made, I apologize. Preface: I stayed in TWI until 2000 (too long) and experienced LCM’s melt-down. I watched him get more legalistic and paranoid from 1990 until the Waydale lawsuit brought his warped behavior to light. I also know several people who got involved with a CG spin-off group soon after PoP. Many have stayed active in those groups and, as I shared before, are not very friendly or informative about what they believe. However, I also know a couple of people who left a CG group around the same time I left TWI. The stories they shared with me sounded almost exactly like ones I could tell about the latter years of TWI! IMO, LCM and CG walked down the same path – parallel to one another – going in the same direction. Many of the practices of both organizations are so similar, you wouldn’t know they were ever at odds. For example: LCM told us not to go surfing on the internet. If we needed information, we should “get on the internet, get what we need and then get off”. I was told by someone who left a Geer associated fellowship that they were told that the internet was just a tool to use, and that it “wasn’t profitable” to search for things out of curiosity. The “Mark and Avoid” policy of TWI seems similar if not identical to the CG fellowships. First – confrontation, second – accusation, third – rejection, and finally – isolation. The last step was usually in the form of a letter saying something like “have no further contact with…” whichever group was marking and avoiding the accused! Lots of legalism, control, and fear motivation also come into play in both groups. Also, the arrogance of the claim of having the “present truth” from “the man of God” are part of the package. The difference is in which MOG they follow. I’m not sure if the CG groups regard Chris as the MOG or VPW or both. I know in TWI it was Rev-er-end-Mar-tin-dale. Anyone else was either a counterfeit or an “old wineskin”. My point is, that these two guys should have teamed up. For the most part, they were both on the same page. They would have had a lot more people stick around, and probably would have been able to hide any of their deviant behavior for longer period of time. But both of them have huge egos. I’m sure neither would admit that they agreed on anything, and each of them would consider themselves spiritually superior to the other. Of course, they both believe that VPW put them in their positions of power as MOGs, which to them probably justified everything they did.

From Encarta... idio- prefix Definition: private, individual, proper, or distinctive --idiolect --idiomorphic [< Greek idios "your own, private" < Indo-European, "self"] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ id·i·ot (plural id·i·ots) noun Definition: 1. an offensive term that deliberately insults somebody's intelligence ( insult ) 2. an offensive term in a now disused classification system for somebody with an IQ of about 25 or under and a mental age of less than 3 years ( dated ) [14th century. Via French and Latin < Greek idiōtēs "private person, layperson" < idios (see idio-)] Whaddya think???

Uppity - I PT'd you... Pinklady & I are old friends... This group has been around here for a while. It's made up of mostly ex-TWI people (surprise!) and doesn't have very many new recruits. I know several people from our old TWI days who are involved with them. They aren't very friendly when I run into them - some are downright standoffish. Back when LCM fallen from grace because of first lawsuit, I ran into one of of these folks at the mall. I was glad to see him. He was a bit cold, but that was his personality - so I blew it off. Then I shared about what had happened in TWI with LCM - told him to check out Waydale and a few other Ex-Way sites - that it was really eye-opening, etc. His reply was something like "I don't waste my time on that stuff... it isn't profitable." Ugh. I told him it was nice to see him - kept going and didn't look back. That's the general "line" you'll get from most of them. They don't want to talk about anything that isn't "profitable" - which is everything they know nothing about! :blink:

Gawd - that is so true it's scary

Frankly, I prefer cheese with my whine... When I first came to Trancechat - an old ex-way site that was up and running in 1997 (?), I remember reading all the posts and thinking that "these people should just get over it". Of course, I was still in TWI at the time - not loving it, but still refusing to see it for what it was. Over the years Trancechat, Waydale and Grease Spot have made it possible for me to whine (really b!tch) about TWI. I was able to unload all my frustrations and doubts in the hope I would "get over it". I have come to realize that even though I have left TWI, parts of it will never leave me. So no - even after 6 years of freedom - I'm not completely "over it". I don't come to GS every day anymore, and don't post as often as I used to. It's not because I'm "over" TWI ... I'm just busy! And honestly, I don't have as much to say anymore. It's true TWI has grown more insignificant as time passes, but it's still a huge hunk of my life. And I also don't want to "get over" the good friends I've made over the years - whether I was in TWI or in the Cafe. I don't want to get over the ability to help other people who are just now getting out. I don't want to become someone who blots out their past - I want to learn from it. You "get over" the flu -- you don't "get over" years of your life. They happened - you deal with them and keep moving forward. But to tell anyone to "get over it" is just plain stupid and mean-spirited. I know -- I've said it - and it was wrong to do so.

I googled Earl Burton and found his Real Estate site (click here). Scroll down and check out the Burton Realty movie. Earl still looks so young!

Pat & Mary Powell have a Geer-ish group here in the Tampa Bay area. If you look at the Cortright site (Believer Home Pages ) you'll find links to a multitude of different spin-off groups of various sizes. On some of those pages, there are links to even more. And I'm sure there are more people in those groups than there are currently in TWI.

When I still had one foot in TWI, I got to know a bunch of wonderful women I'd met through the PTA of my kids' school. We talked about everything, including religion. One day at lunch, the subject of what church we went to came up... I hesitated, not wanting to go into the whole TWI explanation, and didn't want to witness to these smart, funny women at all! I gave a brief explanation of what our fellowships were and how long I'd been involved, and how it was part of the Jesus movement of the 70's and yada yada yada.At our table were a Unitarian, a couple of Roman Catholics, a Southern Baptist, a Methodist or two. Someone asked me what the difference was between what TWI taught and what they learned in church. I said we didn't believe that Jesus was God. They looked at me funny... and one of them said, "we don't either" -- and the others nodded their heads. I was confused... I thought everyone who went to church believed that Jesus was God! Turns out that even though the church may teach the deity of Jesus as its tenet - most of them logically concluded that God and Jesus couldn't be one in the same. Sure, they believed in the trinity - but I got the impression that the father - son - and holy spirit were three entirely different entities to them. Amen sistah Wayfer!!! And I continue to see that most folks don't pick apart their church doctrine like we did in TWI. I think the top reasons most of my friends attend church is to worship, to give their kids a religious foundation, and to connect with other people in their community. I don't think there's anything wrong with that!

Great point - There were several people who had amazing talent who were never "permitted" to perform for one reason or another. There was a woman in the 7th Corps who had a fabulous voice, could play piano and write but never really made it to the Way Prod front line. Years later, I wondered who she wouldn't fu<k. Sh*rry - if you're out there - you deserved better. IMO - that music challenge was one of the worst Way Production events ever (next to High Country Caravan - sorry again Ted). Geez - I shouldn't have got started on this one...

Ahem - Belle If you came and stayed with us, the Dali museum is only about 45 minutes away - and it's realllllly cool, too! I'd go again... I actually think I have a couple of discount coupons, too.

Here goes... IMO - There was a very small amount of truly great talent in Way Productions (no offence socks, ted, or anyone else who was involved, including me!). It was what it was. The pool of musicians, singers, songwriters was a mere puddle compared to what was out "in the world". I can think of only a few performers who actually had jobs in the music business before their TWI involvement. Most of us, myself included, were teenagers who could play a few chords and sing a few notes. It was a hobby, a past-time, it was "cool". I wrote my first TWI song when I was 16, believing that I was inspired by Gawd. Frankly, it was awful. BUT - VP thought it was great so I got to play it again and again and again in front of a few thousand folks at the ROA. All that attention and adulation led me to believe that I was actually quite good, when the reality was that I was mediocre. And I wasn't the only one. Many, many Salieris performed on TWI's stages. There were one or two Mozarts - kinda. I'm not trying to criticize someone's heartfelt emotions when they wrote or sang their songs - I'm just talking about the end product. Oh, there were some who were better writers, better guitar players, better singers... but better than who? Not better than Joni Mitchell or James Taylor or CSN. (I know I'm dating myself, but that's who everyone was trying to emulate at the time). I can think of only two or three people who could have written songs that were recordable and marketable enough to reach an audience outside of TWI. Maybe. And that was TWI 1. TWI 2 Way Prod was so bad it was scary. Talk about plastic Jesus! And everyone had to sit through it and smile and applaud and act like Stepford people while inside they were secretly barfing. Case in point --- I went to the Advanced Class in Rome City in 1995. Worst 10 days of my life - but that's another story. Upon entering and leaving every meeting and meal the Stinkin' Ladies of Oy Vay were playing in the background. After a few days, I made a comment to someone about how I wished there was more variety in Way Prod like there used to be in the past, and the ladies were getting a bit monotonous and boring. Well, some Corps Nazi came up to me later that evening and told me to keep my opinions to myself - that the old TWI music was an "old wine skin" and who was I to criticize them anyway? I again stated that I wasn't saying they were bad (which they were), I was only saying I wish there was more to choose from. She mumbled something about not being a stumblingblock to others in the household and we left it at that. I kept my mouth shut and cringed through every song and laughed at how insane it was that people actually made believe that it was good. More of the Emperor's clothes...

I'm with Oak and Krys... I was still in - but very disillusioned when I found Trancechat. It was a haven for me. Had I still been totally way-brained, I would have chalked the whole internet stuff as "an attack of the adversary". But I was ready to hear and more than ready to participate in any ex-way forum at the time. I think the impact of the internet wasn't as relevent .until TWI got smaller and the ex-way presence on the internet grew larger In the mid to late 90's, there were certainly more ex-way people around than participants. It was when those ex-way found each other that caused TWI lots of grief. Sure, trancechat was a mess, but it was all that was out there. It did enough damage, but IMO, "t'was Waydale killed the beast". I honestly believe LCM would still be running things if it wasn't for Waydale. I don't think TWI would have grown, but he'd still be in charge of the small group of kool-aid drinkers who stuck around. In the old days, when TWI was fat and happy, most of us would have gone on the defensive had their been an internet site that was against the MOG. We used to defend TWI against ANY criticism back then. I think one of the reasons that other groups haven't been closed down by disillusioned ex-followers is that there are still enough current followers to circle the wagons against any attacks on them. For example, Tom Cruise and his gang have lots of faithful followers and very deep pockets. They can afford to fight their nay-sayers. TWI has neither. Interet criticism against them will hurt a lot more than it does the Scientologists because they can't afford to give it any recognition in order to fight it. Just admitting there are ex-way sites on the internet will draw those who are curious or disillusioned right to them.

Jonny - The Powell fellowships have been running here in the Tampa Bay area for several years. There used to be 4 or 5 of them, I don't know how many there are now. Yes, they are affiliated with CG. We know several people who went seamlessly from TWI to their group. When we'd run into them, they were quite aloof. I don't know whether it was because we were still in TWI or because we weren't with them. Some of these people had been in our Twig in the 80's. I was so surprised at how cold and unfriendly they were. When Waydale was up and running - I ran into a man who I knew from those days. I asked him if he ever went on the internet and told him a bit about what was happening. His reply was something like, "We don't talk about that stuff anymore. It's not profitable. The internet is full of garbage and we don't need to fill our minds with that." Sounded like LCM's instructions to the TWI faithful after Trancechat and Waydale appeared on the scene. After we left TWI, I ran into someone else in a PP fellowship and let them know we'd finally gotten out of TWI and that we were attending a Methodist church. He was indifferent, cold, almost condescending - an attitude like "goody for you...". I then realized that it was because we weren't part of their group, not because of the group we were a part of. It didn't matter whether it was TWI or the Methodists - we weren't in their circle, so we didn't count and they didn't care. The person I spoke to a couple of years ago attended one of their fellowships as well, along with her whole family. Her story was much like pinklady's. What I noticed the most was that CG's "ministry" almost ran parallel to LCM's. They had the same need for control, the same kind of paranoia and megalomania. I thought they might have done much better had they joined up together instead of going their own way. They were travelling down the same path and didn't manage to connect!

Uppity --- Absolutely! I'd rather be singing "Green Day" songs than "I Love the Lord".... PinkLady - Welcome Are you in my area (I'm in Tampa)? I know someone who went through something almost identical to your situation with the same exact group. I haven't talked to her in a couple of years. After reading your post, I wonder how she's doing. Please email me at hoperich@verizon.net. Thanks

I was in the Sickth Corps - and we needed $300 a month - that included our interim year. That also included a reserve fund to be given to us when we graduated. If I remember correctly, the way it worked was - if you received all of your $300 sponsorship every month - $20 of it was put into your reserve fund while you were in residence. If you got your sponsorship on your interim year, $90 of it was put in your reserve fund and you got a "student aid" check from TWI for $200 (the other $10 was used for tapes, way rags, etc.). Our last year in-rez, the reserve went from $20 to $10 for some reason. When I graduated I received a check for $1440 to get started in my assigned area. This was 1978 - so it was really helpful. I was able to buy a used car and put a deposit down on an apartment. I think we were the last Corpse to get that money. Something to do with the IRS. Anyone else remember? Hope Hey - TT - I never thought of it that way - great point. As far as getting $ for when you DID sleep - heck - you were there - they owned you. If they wanted to wake you up at 3:00 a.m. to "chase rabbits" - you got up! So IMO, TT's figuring is right on the money! :blink:

Again - I forgot to put my orignial post in the context of LCM's regime -- especially the last few years of it. He'd teach something different, or wierd (Eve was a lesbian) or scream and spit about something going on in the world -- and then say "and if you don't like what I'm teaching - you can go to CHURCH!" As if going to church was like going to one of Dante's circles of Hell. I think there are many people who just haven't opened their eyes up to the fact that there is more to church than the particular doctrine of the denomination. As it's been stated by many in this thread -- there's a social benefit as well as a spiritual benefit - especially in a church with a large congregation that has more resources and more choices to offer. I think many ex-TWI, especially those from LCM's latter years, still think of church as ungodly or evil or filled with ulterior motives. I have nothing against home fellowships and am sorry if I came off that way. The purpose of my question "What's wrong with church?" was simply to ask those who went from TWI to a TWI-like spin-off why they went in that direction, how they felt about attending a mainstream church and why they wouldn't. Like I said, I don't attend anything right now - tried church and enjoyed it for the most part - but have taken a different turn in my beliefs - which is why I no longer go to church. Even if I still believed what I was taught in TWI, I wouldn't attend a spin-off because of the incredible similarities they have to TWI. I had almost 30 years of that. I don't think I ever want to sing "At Calvery" again....

For those of you who left before LCM went off the really deep end -- this statement was an order. It was much more than just getting a grip on things. This was a yet one more way to control any criticism or angst one may have had listening to LCM's teachings. Don't get emotional about losing your house because of the "no debt" policy. Don't lose your cool if you lose your Corps or clergy status. And don't freak out when your Leadership tries to screw you -- literally! Don't let your emotions cloud your obedience to da MOG!!! There have been several Christian and secular writers who have discussed the need to curb your emotions in certain situations. They are trying to help people take control of their own lives. TWI's take on emotions was used in order for THEM to take control of others. Big difference.

Igotout and I were discussing the splinter groups that stemmed from TWI the other day. Some of the people in these groups have been out of TWI for 10 years or more. Yet they still cling to the home-fellowship as if it were an abomination to do otherwise. The format to the fellowship for most of these groups is still the same as well: Sing – Pray – Sing - Announcements Sing (softly) - Manifestations Teaching (20 minutes) Tithe Sing Cookies and coffee! (Oh boy!) Gawd, it sounds so bland and boring. It makes me wonder why people haven’t tried … (insert “Jaws” music here)…. CHURCH! Now, I don’t go to a church, or a splinter group or anything at the moment. We did go to a nice, large Methodist church for about a year after leaving TWI. We don’t go there anymore, and it has nothing to do with the church or the minister in charge – but that’s another thread… One thing I noticed about this church, and have heard about many other churches is that they’re very diversified. Besides several Sunday services to choose from, there are couples nights, singles nights, family spaghetti nights, classes for people with specific needs as well as bible studies, rock music services, and tons of volunteer opportunities – like helping others in need! The church we attended helped build a “Habitat for Humanity” home every year. They had missionary programs in Haiti and other third world countries. Most of the congregation lived in our community. Their kids went to the same schools as our kids. We shopped in the same stores. We weren’t in someone’s living room, isolated from other points of view. So – if you’re still a Christian – what’s wrong with church? Is there a fear that you might be taught something contrary to what you learned in TWI – and that what you learned there might be wrong? Or is it a disdain for those teachings – a smug sense of superiority and arrogance that came with the territory of knowing the “only truth”. I know someone who had been in TWI all his adult life, and attended a splinter group when he was kicked out with a bunch of others. He’s been sitting in a living room with the same kind of people, singing the same songs and hearing the same type of manifestations and teachings for over 30 years. There are seldom any new attendees. There’s no sense of community or charity there. Just the same-old same-old. He – and others like him – would have a great time going to a big, lively, active church! His social life would have a totally different outlook! But the mention of it gives him the willies. I’m not putting anyone down who attends a splinter group. I’m just wondering why they would never check out something that might be better – or different! What's the problem? As the poem suggests... "It isn't the church... it's you!" Whaddya think?

Act2 - I sent you a private message -

.... was the day we officially left TWI. Even though I had mentally left 5 or 6 years earler - there was a tremendous relief lifted from my heart knowing that the long, strange trip I had started nearly 29 years before was finally over. It's hard to explain - but the past 6 years feel much longer - like I've been out longer than that. I was involved in TWI from the age of 16 until I was 45. Much too long. In the past 6 years I'm surprised at how easy it's been to de-program myself from the wrong teachings and the wrong way of thinking that had been ingrained in me for my whole adult life. I will forever be grateful to websites like Trancechat, Waydale and Grease Spot for giving me an outlet to release my angst and the patience to put up with me while I was regaining my sanity. Those of you who moderate and host these sites are doing more good than you may ever realize. Thanks --- Hope R.

We're in Tampa, Oaksie - just down the road a piece. You're welcome to stay here as well. Don't know exactly where Davenport is in relationship to us - but it can't be too far.

There are enough "old-timers" around to remember what it was like when all the teenagers flocked to TWI in the 70's. They've probably figured out by now that adults their own age won't easily be drawn into their organization. Get 'em while they're young... it worked for VP! I would also make a guess that many of these my space teens are children of innies - probably those old timers I mentioned above. The last few years we were in - most of the "new" students for LCM's class were kids whose parents were innies. I know that when my oldest turned 12, I was getting pressure for her to take the WAP class. I told my BC she wasn't ready to hear the stuff about Eve's lesbianism yet and he actually understood my concerns. The following year, she went away for the part of the summer they were running the class. I'm so glad neither of my kids were exposed to that bullsh!t.