mj412

just thinking your right man they are on people like flys on sticky tape.. to come back but as soon as I said i may agree with another person who had left and had decided not to come to one of those parties that is EXACTLY what she did turned cold and walked away from a very eager discussion that had previously found me just a delight! my best friends wont speak to me unless they think I will discuss how twi was NEVER wrong just those that have of course left while the household was getting to the perfect clean state it is in now!! hahahaha

this idea of the most difficult thing and not being able to undo it sounds like a definition of GUILT and shame to me. I am not guilty of anything, have I regrets in life ? yep big huge gapping regrets and wishing things could have been different.. but I can no longer live in the pastand/or get angry which often turns into serious depression for woman . I let it go I make amends as best I can and I love people alot and allow them to love me and I enjoy every single day of my life . we are not born into a life of guilt and shame we are taught to feel that way ya know and you can unteach yourself that program and be happy. life is good!

house is a rockin I do not know of any . I do know of a bible story about a single mom unable to feed her child and God sent somone a man not a husband tho who she gave her last bit of food to and then God supplied for her and her child all through the hard times. I know of tons of promises He is able to supply all our needs and how folks often had quite awful circumstances and a miricle happens. my life as a single mom actualy can fit in with one of those. I know the story about how a mom is able to forget her child of her womb yet we are graven on His palms...In Isaiah 49:15,16 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea they may forget, Yet I will not forget thee. Behold I have graven thee upon the palsm of my hands: thy walls are continually before me. the blue book the bible tells me so has a taching on it .

I saw that in the off shoots . it broke my heart, people still struggling to find friendships and fellowship and some bible teaching or something and blam before I knew it Im hearing all the horror storys about a twenty year old boy now turning into a forty year old man still thinking they might love him some day if he tried hard enough to please them and shared his life enough. this is so gross ....... so unloving ......so unkind so not how the bible says we are to feel towards our brothers and sisters even if they did screw up and ask for forgivness. In twi I assumed we all loved and cared and would only do what was best for one another. then I got slapped real hard into reality one day.. and was marked. but I went back Hope R. and nothing ever was said about what happened from the leaders in the way about why or how I was marked and avoided... plenty of others who had left the way thought they knew the story and must have learned from a rumor mill because I heard the accounts of my life told to me and they were not even close to what really had happened but they were convinced even with me in their face reminding them it was my life they were talking about .

the whole christian gig to me goey is life or death . ya know if you do not do this no eternal life for you etc. that is a threat really of not being good enough or eles. God does pick and chose who He has called to be born again clearly. the bible speaks alot about enemies and wars and God protecting and folks dying at the hand of the one true God. I am not into a debate about who is killing who satan and all that i have heard enough storys bible and otherwise, but it is not a huge leap goey to teach that God does have a sense of justice and Jesus has a vengence issue his own self. do not warp this into Im saying someone deserves to be threatened . but to say God has exspectations of His children to be pleasing to HIM is not an outrageous claim to me personly. or to many christian or even not christian groups . compliance is often the norm in any group or eles why belong? how difficult that becomes for a person to cope with of course will vary . evil? I have said the twi uses the bible as a bullet and I mean what I said like a weapon to hurt another. intimidation was used in twi, intimidation was used on this thread is it evil ? yes ok . I can agree with that and to say God said it most groups do claim their beliefs are from a God . I personly do not believe in the busines of personal word from God to a believer from another. CES is very very keen on that . I never realized twi had gotten into it. I have been offered it and walk before something even opens the mouth to tell me what God tells them about me. It is why I left CES. It is insanity to me . no one has or ever will be allowed to tell me what God told them I should do, if I cant hear it myself then well I do not need to hear it . end of discussion for me, I never realized twi had gotten into the personal prophet line although john lynn and John S. love it to death maybe they did back then as well in the corps. I have no doubt people can get hurt messing with that business if they chose to believe it is God speaking through another.

I guess im guessing but your saying all consel that brings God into the equation and or thoughts that He may have an opinon about a situation is evil ? well most groups do just that in some manner Goey not just christian. that is why people go to them for consel to find out what they think God says concerning an issue . if you think people should not offer it well ok then . I reread your point again and think your saying folks should not use God as a threat for harm .... ok I hear that if that is your point but Goey that is so very very common in our society and certainly not just a twi thing religous wars and murders have been a constant throughout history. even in the bible its self God was used as a threat to harm another.

So goey do ya think the leaders of the outfit would have had any better luck if they would have turned people away and said no cant help you , your on your own kid. it was a bible group Goey people wanted answers and sought answers from twi. do I think they should have conseled any one? ha in hindsight I see the lack of awareness of the leaders and the lack of education and see what was lacking but at the time I bought the ticket and rode the ride. I did seek advice and consel about a number of situations in my life and when what they thought no longer jived with what I thought after many attempts and hurtful incidents I said no more listening to them . we all did at one point. I do not guess folks motives . I do not think all those who tried to help others in twi had evil plotting intent to harm them tho . I think it was often just what they were taught themselves as right or wrong in life from twi. my point is how people responded to that advice or "word" or what ever you may call was solely up to them as individuals .

cry meaning upset not feeling right about the situation searching for a peace about it..wondering distracted by it. what rascal choses to do is only up to Rascal Steve I seldom give advice to anyone in life.

the evan you assume much about me yet know very little . you do not know what i have experienced in life. as I said before if this thread and even this forum is about pity and support for victims that never want to explore why they got hurt and want to wallow in the same people pleasing andneed of the approval of others to make a positive choice in life that twi offered. I can be of little input. thank you for the great testimony man of a thousand names. I would only add that if a person is still dealing with negative feelings and inability to cope with incidents in life many years after the fact it may indeed be time for a professional check up on what can happen to help you overcome and enjoy life once again.

Steve the approval of others and people pleasing is not something I seek at grease spot or in life . I am simply me and that is good enough for me . advice from others is quite worthless at times esp. when it isnt asked for . is that not the point of the thread? but yet you still feel the need to give it. hmmm.

I just chose not to blame or be angry Rascal . I chose to find peace and good things in life , and yes that for me has changed everything .

yes Rascal it is but life gets better doesnt it ? for most i would say it has. and I am very thankful . God required I do not know if you read my other post about one LC teling me to give God direct orders for my life. I was marked after I said I am not in a position to demand anything of God. yes people clearly had egos and power trips . but it was fed and you may not like this the power trips where fed by those laying at the feet of the leaders and begging for answers and direction from them instead of from the Lord Jesus Christ .

because you think abortion is evil you mix in any consel concerning that as evil I understand that Goey I just do not agree . twi taught breath life from the pfal class, as tom said maybe some didnt understand how that plays out in a pregnancy . ok but if a person asks and finds out that is HOW twi feels about when life begins and what is considered murder or not. AT that point a choice is on the shoulder of the person to believe it or not . outside of twi people are given the same choice Goey IT is a CHOICE! I understand where your coming from that abortion is murder and evil etc... but not all believe that and twi certainly never claimed that !!!! so the consel is not evil I repeat you think abortion is evil so the conselto have one is evil I GET IT. but some did not and do not believe that, so the consel would NOT be considered evil any more than if it came from a dr. or a sister or a loved one . understand? I know you feel strongly about these choices. most do Goey but the fact remains and always will twi taught differently than what you believe as truth always did from the very first class. many believed them and did heed the consel of that teaching . they do not think it was evil , you do . it is simply a difference of opinon Goey and as I said I will not debate the right or wrongness of how people chose to believe in this matter it is far to personal and endless really for my taste.

Simpleton oh boy aint that THE TRUTH!!!!! and then some . and depending on your ability to sperate yourself from the cult and at what point the line was drawn for your own life is when ther"situations" hit the fan . It was a sale and I bought it . Rascal relax just a little bit this is not all about you, it is simply a thread on a ex-way forum. you do not have to make a defense stance in this discussion if you chose not too. as Oak said if it isnt about you then it isnt.

wafernot yep God does indeed open the eyes . why it had to be with suffering is the very mystery I was referring to. Long gone I am not prepared to fight the bible fight about whether abortion is right or wrong I have said all along that is a personal choice that most feel very strongly about one way or the other. or they have changed their minds on what they believed and now feel differently . I hear you say you do not think twi should bibly consel abortion. ok great. but they did and probably still do , and people heeded their consel . that does not make the consel EVIL. If you believe abortion is EVIL that is another topic and one that has raged on for many decades in our countries courts, in our hospitals,churches etc.in political circles etc. and not one I care to get into . yet at this point in time abortion or conseling a person to have an abortion is not illegal . If a person felt as strongly about pro-life abortion issues and had the measure of intelligence and reasoning you have from whatever source and convinced they knew how they felt about it then they would not seek consel would they now?

being held acountable is a fine thing . just do not forget your own self in the mix . I do not chose to pick and chose who is more guilty of what . it was a cult.

[or QUOTE]Originally posted by insurgent: and, mj, I *think* you're wrong! People were hurt, intentionally. People did sit up at night figuring out ways to _get rid of_ people who a) knew too much b) were too independent c) were a threat and/or d) were just not liked for some reason. There have been plenty of examples of that given here. If you want more I can give you some. _AGAIN....NO ONE IS DENYING THAT! THAT'S NOT THE POINT! YOU _GET REAL!__ Just because your experience may be different from someone else's does not invalidate the other person's experience and it does not mean that it did not happen the way they say it did. You really sound like the kool-aid drinkers, "Everyone has a choice. No one _made_ you do so and so." Yeah, let's see, I could commit suicide or do what the local wc tells me to do......hmmmm, that's a choice alright.....and that's the way it seemed many times in twi(t)ville. But, you refuse to see it an I think the twi experience was very common for many and I think people experience the situations they claim Im not deny that. If your mental state is at a level you may need to commint suicide or do what a church leader states you should I also see several options or choices. !) you need expert mental health help. 2) your sought the leaders or the wc for answers. 3) they tried to help you the best way they could with very little genuine skills in dealing with the complex mental health issues many came to them with. they may have even conseled you to leave the group to get professional help for your issues of suicide and drepression. 4) you chose to go with what they thought was going to work in your life and then spend the rest of your life on the internet blaming them for not having the ability to help you. or you realized you needed more concentrated or serious help in life and sought professional care concerning your issues in life. do I think twi had bullies and victims ? yep I sure do.

Oldiesman & mj412, The choice presented to rascal was to do God’s will by getting an abortion or to break a vow to God, walk away from Him and His protection, and face consequences that could include death. The point is not that the choice was “real” or believable now, but that it was very real and believable to her at the time.` that was the choice given to many many folks and that is why many left or where thrown out long gone.

I can give you a practical example of what Im saying here. I have a friend who was in great health and feeling wonderful and living a full exciting life. she went to the dr. who said she should take a pill for a high count of cholesteral , she complied and three weeks later had a very serious side effect caused by the medicine causing her to be unable to stand or walk for the rest of her life. she trusted her Dr., the Dr. trusted the medicine, the producer of the medicine had tested the drug as much as they thought was possible to make it safe and a positive thing for the health of those who took it. who is to blame now? yet the fact remains she is still in a wheel chair forever. life is like that . the scores of horror storys about twi on ALLL levels just prove it was a mess for many and few are safe from harms way . but who did what when and how is an endless job of making judgement on those in the very same trouble or ignorance or whatever the problem may be. if it is purely doctrine that is simple you do not think God says that .. so do not do it and leave. but that is NOT how many got hurt people where folowing people for the most part and not thinking the way they may now they are "out". who is to blame exactly?

I was marked and avoided Goey I was hurt and so where some very very innocent members of my families hurt by the actions of others. Yet the motive is what Im referring too the intent. I do not think people sat up at night and plotted evil against one another for mere evil sake. fact is bad things happened and that is why so many left or where kicked out. I can not judge folks oh facts are ok Goey just fine as we all have our story, YET the largest fact is evil happens people abuse one another and folks get hurt in life . I do not dismiss pain but I surely would think a forum such as this may educate rather than blame. I didnt keep my mouth shut . and I was marked for it . some chose to not obey a leader and left to go to another leader they thought knew even better in life. it was sales and people bought the package and that is that. I really do not think most plotted to destroy others and others sat around with a gun to their head and said please do not hurt me. it isnt that simple . your first paragraph is exactly my point people want to say they had no choice and were forced to accept what they often sought as consel in twi . My point about God working in mysterious ways is the fact that much of the consel or instruction was claimed to be based on the bible and actualy was but twisted to fit the needs of the organization or person telling others what to do. I see compliance I hear compliance in all of the above situations Goey , all but being marked and avoided in which a person may have no choice but to do what they ask although I didnt comply and did indeed go back after a number of years . So someone looks back and says geez I have regrets I should not have thought that way or did that... it must be the organization I was in and how they used peer pressure and any number of actions to persuade me or even an individual person. bad bad evil !!!! Be real. one day you may wake up and realize everyone does make the choices in their life and must face the fact of the choices they made. I do not judge them or anyone about that bottom line fact. Grease spot is a platform to scream the injustice of the way , fine and great , it stops with asking someone eles to assume responsibility for what you your own self have decided to do in life. I have said the more ignorant or isolated a person may be concerning life the more difficult this concept becomes. followers NEED leaders Goey not the other way around and maybe we can be disappointed in the end of the game if you chose to be , but I will say no one Including LCM got away from twi without being hurt .

I once worked for a very large company. the corporate ideals here sound and excellent yet somehow in the application of how it is "suppose to be done" get twisted and all to common a bad apple of a manager or leader would run ruin for awhile. for whatever reason it takes time to repair or even be aware of all the details of what is going on and honestly is key to a well functioning anything and people just tend to not want to be honest when it comes to power and prestige and impressing one another with all its glory. so no one really lives in a vacum of right when the direction is warped YET many left houseis a rockin and that is what speaks volumes. or got kicked out. I know God works in a way I can not understand. at all. to put ryhme and reason and calculation on situations and wide sweeping situation such as the way is merely guessing I think. no I do not think the higher UP taught people to lie or manipulate or use or abuse one another, I think plenty came with that package already intact and some not a few bought the ticket with their own personal agenda. I just frankly do not think evil of people , I think people got caught up in something and it may have been out of control . victims indeed. It is about isolation and ignorance and a society racked with co-dependency issues in general. But as I got older and see the world at large and educated myself and deal with the fact it is the choice of each individual only on how they chose to live regardless of a great deal of humanity. I understand forgivness to others is the key to growing more each day. To live more to do more to open the gates of life its self. very very few truly know the honest motives of another , or intent really in life and I dare say all have played the fool in that arena eventualy or have chosen to just stay in isolation and ignorance and never ever really experience life in all its glory . In everything in life leaders are chosen to fill the mandates and goals set up by the organization house a rocking . I often think the cover-ups may have been a type of trying to live within a loving and forgiving attitude towards one another not so much a agreement that wrong is ok. I just do not think evil about people that way. oh yes things went wrong things go wrong but I really do disagree with some of the rather rabid fans of GS who have nothing but hate and bitterness and a sore need for revenge on a group they once all but gave their life up for. it appears to me to be slapping your own self in life and I do understand why a person would be unable to grow anymore spiritualy or in any way in life with such a mid set. hate consumes a person and eventualy destroys the ability to see any good at all. I will say this one time as I have said it and said it. If a person now believes abortion is murder and is a pro-life and at one time had an abortion they may have larger issues at hand to deal with on a very personal level . I have seen this group spend a large amount of effort and time trying to redeem what they believe was wrong and make sure it never happens again . Such is the course of regret sometimes. But twi didnt make abortion legal twi did not lie about their position on how life is defined , and certainly at the corps level people knew it was an option . planned parenthood and many DR., our law: to have the choice is supported in our culture at large to say twi is evil because they assisted a person who was complaining and seeking consel over an unwed pregnancy is NOT evil untill you put a spin that abortion is murder and any person who felt that strongly should not have been with TWI or have enough personal integrity to say no at the point they chose to disagree. Look many did disagree with much of what twi was or became and did leave or get kicked out . the degree you blame twi for your own personal choices in life is your own business. I am willing to take responsibility of being involved in a group that made mistakes huge mistakes, but I can not and will not say it was their responsibility to make me happy or to make solid decision for my life . If a person can "blame" anyone or anything for the state of how they live it may boil down to once again ignorance and isolation , which is a very personal journey one must undertake for their own self. yet sadly few do. at what point did it take for someone to leave ? it varied did it not?

I know God protected me from a great deal of harms way , did i meet trouble? yes but if you play with fire you may get burned and maybe next time you will understand better and hopefully be less willing to compromise your own self and others . I do not live in fear no way I truly do love people and The bible states to love and pray for our enemys not just those who help us feel good. it works. not a fake love a type of understanding that we all may play many different roles and positions in life if it was not for the utter grace of God and a genuine thankfullness and love for one another is what brings about the changes often needed to be healed from pain and bitterness .

this is awful but it is the only thing I can think of . alot of great sex ! by refusing to get married and dealing with all the rules and regs that requires! and still believing it is wrong to have sex without that commintmeent to one another! I seriously ask God about this alot still why to me this is the most foolish set-up in the word. but I believe it is true. lol

I had truama a great deal of truama that will indeed last a life time from folks I knew while in the way ministry . yet I can not blame an organization , people mess up and I truly feel twi just organized what all of mankind is indeed capable of doing to one another. I was bitter for about five years and God dealt a great deal with my life then and showed me His outrageous power and strength in this world and His ability to change each one of us if we allow Him to . the change for me was a view that He loves us he does not stop it is indeed one another choice to act on love or hate. If I loved somone I certainly would never want them to hurt or compromise their happiness for me is Gods love any less? forgivness is key to knowing what love is, to love myself I have to forgive myself for regrets and mistakes that humans do in life out of ignorance or even worse.. If I can and do allow myself forgivness I can only then gladly grant that same respect to another regardless of what may have happened. or why. I do not think God holds grudges to me clearly forgivness is just that forgivness. I like this for me and once again view this for all of the world at large. we are talking about our very brothers and sisters in Christ in twi! although it is appealing and drama and enticing to scream the horror of just how evil can play out itself amoung man kind I tend to remember I also am of the same breed and concern . when I am in trouble and maybe capable of hurting another I hope someone who loves and listens to God will clearly speak to me in the tone we all yearn for in life with out malice or bitterness towards the person but rather the problem itself. and then be willing to forgive as we all wait for the next chance to truly love as He loves us .

I am still watching this twi thing in many lifes that surround me. It has taken me a million years to realize something housearockin. the secret to succes or even peace in life is not being meek or even full of courage it is to be honest in the very least to one own self and more hopefully to the creator of our very souls. so many lost the ability to be honest while thinking they had found the truth in life. twi claimed to teach or know the truth yet what good is anything if your not honest? God is truly LOVE to me now and even in times of huge turmoil and stress I think God must love ME> not what I do or did or didnt do . He had the idea of what a human could be and well in all honestly here I am I must be good enough or why even bother to think a God is a father of all ? what keeps me well is the fact I aslo just as firmly believe the above about every human on earth and creature He created. I know we got caught up in something and I think it was the inability to be honest and real and I think the reason ws not to please God and often not our own self but rather one another. and why? to be able to know we are loved. so I decided what I decided and know God does indeed love us all very very much and each and every one of us is worthy of that fact. the fact I do not understand or even hate another does little to change this fact to me,I know Jesus Christ gave us one another to make life worthwhile and it is the only reason to livefor me . but honesty to God and one another and mostly to your own self is the only way home to a place of knowing we all share this capacity called love. without it I do not think it is love at all just a illusion or a lie.