mj412

I have a friend who has a mother who is an "elder' this friend is fifty something and does not go to church . but she has never beenn thrown out it would shame her mother so much so mom lies and claims the reason she doesnt attend is for health reason for over thirty years! her daughter is too ill, although she works full time and lives a normal life concerning attending to everything eles. hmmmm. but I recognize the fact this mother has a great deal of control still over my friend , she has always lived in one of her homes and has never married even when in love because her mom didnt like his race etc. so I guess it may be the same i just have never seen it like I have in twi. also whenever I would reach out in friendship to this girl , we had the love of cats in common and met at a cat store , without fail mom and her friends would come knocking on MY door with their little paper books and wanting to vist! so in a sense she was still controlled by the cult she was raised in , but had a slight rebellion streak that was controlled by the elders for appearance sake. sad really.

Sunesis I am afraid to write after such a wonderful and beautiful post that describes our life in the spirit . but I will give it a go anywyas. it is an us thing the spirit . a bloodline that runs deep and heavy within my soul . it is in others we are the body of Christ who is the head . I was hurt emotionly very deep and didnt even know it when I lost my job last year. I have a new job and this is how I got it , honest story I saw a barn in the middle of the winter , driving around after praying for a job for three months , I had just been told the position has been filled at another place and was all dressed for success in heels and suit . I stopped at the barn wlaked across a field with snow in my heels and suit opened a garage door in the back of the barn and walked in this barn to see a strange fat man got in his face and point blank asked him for a job . what the hell ? Im reading it and cant believe I did this but it is how it happened .. he said nothing but pointed to a very young high strung man sitting in an office in the loft of this barn . I climbed over tress and hay and tools and god knows what to go to this office and was about three feet away when this obnoxious man came out and said what the hell are you doing? I said "you need to give me a job". he did . it isnt a dream come true job in fact for the most part this job sucks more than the average job. the high strung dude that asked me what the hell I was doing is increasingly more obnoxious every day in fact. I am feeling stronger every day I am getting healed of so much pain that had no voice yet screamed inside me everyday. I learned to trust others again , I learned to trust myself again , but most of all I learned to trust God again. I may move on soon ya know this was not exactly the wise career choice in life. yet somehow we all know God is in this , me desperate to work, him so silent only able to point me in the direction I should go .. another him that couldnt say no. and their has been others including the realization of what went wrong in my life and the chance to do it right this time and I did and I got healed from the guilt and pain of the past . it has been something . it has been God working in all of us to see life through His eyes of trusting and loving Him and one another.

being saved is simple to me . saved from death unto life. eternal and otherwise. I believe without the life giving spirit inside we are dead on this earth with a void and emptyness that only Jesus Christ as Lord can fill. it is the longing desire and purpose of man.

CoolWater. it doesnt have to be endless strife it really doesnt. a friend of mine went to catholic high school and was a strict catholic I had him take pfal and today he is ordained in twi... well over two decades we have talked his entire idea about God and his mission has been to refute the trinity . nothing more . I made him this . I am ashamed. ya know once we were young kids thinking God is the answer to life and prayer will help each of us get through the complexes of life and ya know we thought good things about people . it turned into a military war stance of doctrine for him. I know this man he only wants to help people and love people yet this is ahold of his mind and he can not and will not let it go for anything now. God is bigger , He made a donkey talk to get his point across to His people ! that debate can take over your spirtiual life only if you allow it to be the focus . Another CHOICE is what our Saviour tells us to be our focus which is to love the Lord God with our whole heart and one another.

searcher oh boy how manipulating he stops where he did in his little report of CES. if you look at their page you will also notice a stop of the time line. it is sugar coated where they leave out a lots and I mean a whole lot of serious insanity. YEARS and I mean decades are left out of trouble and debate and serious abuse and allegations and divorce and upset and division within the CES group . Both John S. and John Lynn are divorced , John lynn was fired by his own company and brought back a year later when things calmed down about what he did. the rules of the leadership and their special page and oath to CES are not metioned hmmm... the difference and the only difference is CES is much more sly and sneaky and full of only those with ears to hear secrets . they got good at it when twi fell and learned . Twi got a little to bold with the game, CES knows better. geez whatever people want to float their boat in. anything for the good of the cause .

Shaz and exie are right. Mark G. wife claims to be a prophetess and has been advertised as such by John S. and CES, ( someone with a gift to speak for God ) . The "gift ministries" where always held in esteem by folowers as special and deserving of worship and respect. She also reccommended people "break out of their comfort zone" and take the training I personly heard her and of course we listen to the "gift ministries" and heed Gods spokeman and all hail CES for putting a nice PC twist on the idea by recognizing a WOMAN with such say so to the masses, no reason to suspect a sexual reason for her say so much safer just in case ya know. good lord in heaven am I the ONLY one who can see this ?

It sounds like both groups have power plays but I see a difference JW does not have such a thick line of who is and who isnt really allowed to "hold those in close scruntiny". many who post here are grads of the corps progrma which is an elite group inside of twi. the actual" better than" people(groomed to be leaders of the flock by twi) they held the commintment high and longer than the "ordinary believers" who ironicly often paid their way through the program . This is an hiearchy formed within twi, again it is so ingrained it isnt notice even within their own ranks... you will notice a poster conceeding being extra kind and gentle to way corps grads . At grease spot only the chosen know who the chosen are in the posts and it is clear they often still hold this power over others and within themselves. twi is not a cult with a even playing board of self righteousness , power, prestige and say so, was earned by the number of years in who you knew , your family memebers and their rank etc. these mind sets do not erase themselves it takes a humbling process to realize the false throne you sit upon is nothing more than a pile of crap . the problem is and always has been within a group think setting those who adore and want to pay allegence are just as ignorant, loyal and self righteous with the parasitic nature they learned while in the cult. hence the desire for grease spot cafe.

if I stood in the kitchenand read the puter in the living room I was getting along with the tiny font ok, the truth is size does matter .

I would like it bigger please.

excathedra how do you know how mny hands God has? do you think God needs us excathedra?

I think Zixar thinks Of Greas spot as his home his own trusted forum with friends and companions he cares about. this is clearly shown in his posts and that is why he naturally would post about something that is upseting him about grease spot. fights? I have been watching one all week at my job ( really bad nasty cops sex booze and Im going to kill you kind of stuff) between two girls connected to two guys that work here. it is horid as they come, and never ending. well you know what I get talked to by the owner today( who may actualy lose his business over the trouble these two woman have made this last week , because his landlord has had enough of the scenes) well he tells me not to gossip . I thought about it and I said hell no this is not gossip because the whole place is talking about the employees involved and one has gone to the owner complaining about how it has changed his position with other employees . both woman have secrets about dude he doesnt want everyone to know so if he shuts me up I hear both sides then maybe it will end. back stabbing well let me say he would not be in this position if he didnt have the mess with these two woman and darn right Im talking about it it makes work stressful and at times dangerous and I frankly do not need this at work. i am going to get involved too. he says well why cant you stick up for(the companys name) instead of taking her side neither woman work for the company but all these scenes take place at my work between these two woman . his crap the girls boyfriend isnt the company I told the owner and just because he has a girlfriend and works here does not mean I will lie or say something happened in a manner different from the truth of what I saw and heard. I might lose my job tommorrow . i do not care I am not going to lie for this idiot , I wouldnt want someone to do that to me . geez fights why? on top of it the guy is a filthy scum bad drunk idiot. but he is kissing the owners butt alot and the owner who doesnt have a clue about what is happening takes his word for it. I do not I have heard both sides and I believe it takes two to fight and I will not give false witness even about a stranger that is angry, he is lying about her and I wont back him up . god I hope I wont lose my job tommorrow. people who so afriad of gossip are cowards really gossip isnt truth it is slander and lies what I say is the truth and he is nervous about the information this girl has about him and Im listening . my bad or his I say? I guess I will find out.

out and about geez that is awful having to be hospitalized after the class. it is storys like yours which I have heard before and often that makes me very wary of that stuff. I think they know it does things to peoples mind the storys are common enough why do they not warn people? what like half goes nuts the other goes away as happy and insprided as two peas in a fresh pod? I do not get that . somone explain the reason for that and how they would know who is going to have a bad outcome and who is not? one heck of a chance I say .

coolwaters it is about adminstrations which is the word twi used.. After the resurrection the rules changed and the mystery was revealed Jew and gentile can now have eternal life.. before that it was by the blood line and works to know "God". the old testiment believers will face Christ at the BEMA and chose him to be Lord and KIng at that time they will have the choice face to face remember they believed in the coming messiah their entire life although he was not yet born. the bible states before God formed the earth we were called to Him so God knows who is called to believe on His son Jesus Christ but each individual must make the choice to answer it or not. even old testiment believers will have a place in the kingdom that Christ reigns as King in with us / then at last Jesus will hand all of us over to God. Mary was a chosen sevant of God and a jew , she was beloved of God as all of His children . Why would we "come" to mary? no one worshiped Mary while she lived on earth, she lived the life of a good jewish woman who God chose to be the mother of Jesus because of her faith in Him .

the difference is that when a person gets a new job or signs up for military training the agenda and training is explained and the outcome is expected. the manner in which the momentous training was sold was as a christian thing to grow in the Lord. my pont is I think many where shocked at what it was , ok they could have investigated further blah blah etc. yes. Yet in fact the endorsement by CES and those who trusted their judgement and reccomendation persuaded some to do it without looking into the thing as much as they would have otherwise . some felt betrayed by CES when they got hurt this I do understand especialy with the fact anyone who had problems with the training where called unstable or weak and not good enough to handle it by CES the very ones who they trusted to get involved in it . the training sounds unpredictable by the accounts I have read , CEs did not indicate that it was troublesome to some because it was not trouble some to them , yet as "leaders" to people who are trained and who have obeyed by their own training at their beck and call searching for help in the new cult or out of the old cult I feel CES could have been much more forthcoming about what it was all about and then willing to help those that had issues with it, instead of banning together with the elite that had a good experience and insulting those who did not.

Is it ironic that? llpof came to this thread and questioned the motives of the posters about what they write. In response posters question llpof motives for what he writes. As far as accusations and proof, vpw was never arrested or sued for the alleged crimes of sexual abuse etc. no proof can be had other than the testimony of some that claim to be victims. Yet the testimony of a positive experience is dismissed as just what a person claims as truth of their experience while involved with twi therefore invalid. is this a double standard ? safety in numbers ? who can throw a fit loud and long enough ? A ....ing contest on who is right or wrong or just the same thing by two seperate groups of thought?

Wordwolf or more to Rachel I do not think just because a father is God the Son is as well. using your logic Rachel some sons are very very differnt than their fathers even in name sake and we would not recognize the relation unless told it was so. so we can not assume, also it is the spirit that impregnated Mary of which God is a Spirit .. so maybe God didnt use all of his marks as the ONLY God and creator. for example my daughter has blonde hair and her father has jet black hair so some stuff came from somewhere eles.. namely Mary his mother. or a long lost relative down the line of birth order. We are not clones as humans no one has the same code to reproduce the same again. Aslo spirit is spirit , it does not work as the flesh, and It is clearly written we can not know God His ways are far above ours and etc.. so we do not know how he contributed to the making of Jesus christ really. it was a miricle , without much definition . so to assume Jesus Father is so jesus must be is the same is not very logical on many fronts. the bible state man was made in His image so all of us Look like God in some manner but does that mean we have the title God ? the idea of God as a title: my father is a dr. yet I can not say well Im a dr. as well because my dad is. Because Jesus Christs father created the world does not mean he is also capable of such.

that is a very difficult concept for christians to grap to stand or fall alone . twi used people as pawns to make money and hold power over one another because they enjoy the feeling of being the one who "ministers" to another. I think people want it as well need it even because the idea of lesser and greater mind for christ is the base line of all these teachers and their sales. then the personal prophecy got even more intimate and in your face about who knows what about whom,and when also claiming to be from god geeez so complicated. to much work I say . I love my friends and family but at days end it is my maker I must speak to about my comlete pictures in life He is the only one who knows it all togeher without the impressions and feelings and stress of my other relationships so in a sense it is just me and God. I have very close friends but Jesus christ really is the one true friend I am learning knows me better than my own self.

Def59 I liked the link very much. It addresses the idea so many have today that God just would not be able to make it without their expert input on all His work. the idea that this mini christ in everyone is what is needed to save the world and what really is the secret with all power has been making me sick for a very long time. it is very difficult to wake people up to the idea that God is God and frankly no matter how much the leader may priase your money making schemes or bible you read the Fact is there is only ONE GOD and we are not the one. the idea of getting rewards is what begins this idea in people then it escalates into ego and poer trips as written in the very first book of the bible. This article speaks of God like a father with children and we are included because He wants us to join in His work and activities and blessings in life. I would have liked it to elaborate on the fact Jesus is the only begotten Son without sin that pleased God and we are the siblings that he (jesus christ) loved enough to include in the family of God . Remember the prayer in John that was Jesus for us not god softening His ideals and allowing the circumstance of His thought to be any different towards us. Jesus is the Saviour of us. Jesus is the standard Jesus is the reason we even have a season with God today and a chance at eternal life. God does not need me,but He does love me . I think this concept is difficult for some to understand till we get older in the bible age and even today many folks have had children in their teens and early twenties on into their thirties... the bible says we are not an adult till we are at least thirty . That means some of our children are grown up and began families of their own by the age we are considered an adult . this is the bible model of how life can and I think should be a blessing to see His greatness. The mystery lives in the family deeply. When we are young we see the need of our children and the helplesness and we really do understand the idea of God as a Father or parent that provides and supplies and protects well. Yet the bible says to "grow up" to be in christ to grow is a concept that implies taking on more responsibility and personal choices in life and that means less of a parent would be needed for many simple tasks such as home and hearth etc. As I think it is with God and me as I have grown to trust Him as the one who loves me I realize what the truth means in my life , Ihave learned my lessons I have accepted the responsibility life is, so the relationship to my Father has changed. when my daughter was small it was my job to be sure she got up in the morning and completed her daily tasks , it was my job to keep her safe and protected. Now she has been taught well and can function in our world with her own mind and less of my input. But we still love one another and often need the companionship of one another for comfort and joy in life. My life would be far less blessed without such richness of time and work of the relationship . Such as the relationship with god and His children we are His children we should grow up and become adults and the relationship is one of a sharing and living in a world that is made for us to be happy in. I know people who have had no children yet somhow they tend to make a family or reach others in life that fill this lesson for them in some way whether it be a study of acadenmics or a neighborhood child or a dog or cat to nuture and see the growth of another is what life is met to be. In my family grandchildren and babies of the grandmom is normal and if life is met without the outside circumstances of birth control and money etc.. the family is intact the model of what God considers children clearly shows a growth of personhood into their own person towards a purpose of loving one another and THAT is what God is the Father of with children of all ages and stages of growth . It is a fun thing it is a family and as this article states it is His purpose for mankind. Roy God has angels God has all the animals He created God has many things He could love and use to keep Him company and loved I think He made the family so we could see How much Love is the most important thing of all that works in the miricle of life itself. The idea we have a choice betwen satan and God is a concept I enjoy and it mkaes life fun and worthwhile and rather helpless in the reality of what truth really is . without the contrast today would we be a butch of brats without the concept of choice and responsibility Jesus christ took on to show us who and what and how God really thinks we should grow up to be as His children?

Evan I hear you say it was a positive thing for you I have read the negatives Mr. P has linked what is your input on the goodness of the program? I can only read the neg response what was good about it? a little more detail other than "strong" would be great.

ok. the way I understand it John Judes and John Lynn are not exactly bed fellows . ha . but they seem so much alike to me really . I think to reccommend something is one thing and folks should NOT have to be responsible for the reaction of those who participate. hence the HUGE disclaimer one must sign etc. BUT CES knew they had "live ones" just falling out of the cult and into theirs and many are fragle and unsound due to the stress and upset involved in the turmoil to consider the bigger picture and recognize those following them which they do and did and will encourage ( not neccesarily a bad thing) as such . I think when you claim to know what is best for everyone it hurts hard when it goes wrong.

I never took momentous , I have heard it promoted by CEs and I have read the testimony that it was not good for some folks. I guess my question is why did CES think it was so important for extwi to take it? Evan if you got stuff from it why would you not recommend it because some cant handle it like CES thinks?

why then do you think it is/was endorsed so highly by CES? I do not think they think it is so bad even with hindsight. CEs was in one heck of a position: admit problmes with their judgement of the class or get rid of those that oppose them . they soften it with the you know "lesser " folks cant handle the real meat of the truth , so keep it between those that we know and love and can trust not to make us look wrong . hmmm sounds like twi again. what does everyone els think it was all about?

Mr. pjroberge you are in the business of giving facts about groups and the problems you may have with what they do or do not do , it is a needed service and you have helped many. CES involvement with the monmentus was from a different position I think, it helped them so they really reccomended it to help others.. and people took it as a idea and got hurt in the process of getting involved. CES defended monmentous and said some very nasty things about those who gave negative feedback. When John Lynn was FIRED from the way he also said some very nasty things about twi and VPW then calmed down later and sang a differnt tune much less attacking and hostile. I do believe it was to draw people away from twi and into his thing and I think it was done out of anger and hurt and his deep feelings of betrayal. I have zero doubt John Lynn would have never left twi if don W. had not told him he was done and not to return. He claimed to not know the reason he was fired. Both Johns have since admited to adultry in their marriages while in the Way and have claimed repentance but it truly was the kettle calling the pot black at that point. Both have divorced and remarried since then. It was a war. These leaders truly believe they love people and know what is best for God concerning what folks should do with their life and had many fall right into line with them . I think the monmentous thing slapped them right across the face with the reality they are not above hurting others with their pompous misdirection given in the name of love and growth for Jesus. I think it was needed . the problem with scraping up half dead cult head from the gutter and claiming to lead them into a glory land of right teaching and good love is you still have the same problem as the original one of all time. leaders are NOT responsible for the body of christ to work effectivly and well in the manner God almighty created! Jesus christ IS ALIVE and is the ONLY one begotten and given the JOB to DO as our eternal KING ( leader) please read that again.... so the "victims" had no business asking another to be responsible for what only a livng and abiding Spirit can do for them , and the leaders can learn to humble themselves under the mighty and all powerful hand of God who is the only one who reigns on this earth. The conflict begins when money is involved with guys who have never had to think about believing God instead of other chirsitans for it AND when christian believe what a man may say about ideas instead of God because they are paying money for it or just do not know any better. TWi instilled this mind set and CES and the folks who follow them cling to it in practice amass even if they preach different. Denial is a strong thing and very sly in the mind I really do not think CES or those involved realize how it happenens to this day. Monmentous woke many up to it, once again God is on the throne trying to give His children a chance to come to Him as the one who knows and truly Loves them above all others.

folks who get angry have self doubt . I get angry when I doubt or am afraid of somone or something can hurt me or one I love. it is a natural course of events... It is often when a person can not find a solid base line of "self" of what they believe or know as truth for themself and are ok with it that they may feel threatened. the cult taught approval from the masses was important that keeping up with the status was the manner to please and be happy. and that others appoval was very important regardless of your own genuine feelings about a subject. this causes pressure and confusion and that is when people feel out of control and lose their temper or piece of mind. also the whole group mentality of IM ok and I can fix you comes from the cult mind set. when a other rebels against this set of silent rules peole do not understand and get angry. and the friends join in. it is simply displacement .

of course Tommy Z they are manufacturing and testing many new "parts" everyday I truly hope your prayers will be answered soon!