mj412

Rascal you address me nearly everytime in your posts by name. it seems to me your the one who is directing comments . Abby thatis what Im saying exactly that is was a complex mix of those who had personal issues of their own with what twi offered as a life style set of rules that got so warped people got hurt. but to say it was all about twi and they condoned it set it up and even arranged such truama is beyond reasonable to me. Shaze I had those kind of surprises often in raising my children I had a day care go out of business in the middle of the day and forget to call me (this was before cell phones of course) so when I went to the school YES this was in a public school day care! the state troopers where caring for my children!!!! I tell ya it was a good thing they had left the building and the only folks left had badges I was so angry . this was a very fine day care that was started for the teachers children on campus and they all had masters and they walked out on the kids .

plenty and I mean to say plenty of divorce in twi, I understand you thought what you did was right , I saw more divorce in twi than I did marriages and that is the truth, I saw people leaving their families to marry into another all together corps as well. the fact you were in an abusive relationship tells alot about where you where at scary isnt it? NY just passed a law that states if a parents allows a child to witness abuse they will be taken from the home imediately . I think it is a good law. some would say it is blaming the victim. Somone has to protect the children in those types of households and obviously the parents being abused or the one abusing is incapable.

why eles would somone leave their children with folks they questioned as safe ? why eles would they not listen to their children or teach their children how to be safe regardless of who ever may hurt them? they lacked the ability Ex, to keep their children safe for the sake of the group and its approval and Im sorry for that. To be intimidated because you need to belong or obey another at the cost of compromising children, their safety or well being would never be Gods will for anyones life it just isnt common sense it is cult like behaviour that is instilled in the parent willing to compromise for group think or people pleasing behaviour or fear or ignorance. for me the most important job I had or ever will have is helping my children grew up to be well and safe no group or intimidation could stop that as a priority #1 . I feel it was a job with honor and righteousness granted by God and I am truly sorry for parents unable to see or live that in their families and got hurt. neither cruel or ignorant .

yes I was going to ask if alcohol was involved. or drugs.. it makes a difference IM glad you seek help to cope with the issues your youth presented itself with. my sister was run over by a car when we were teens she was drunk she does not remember it and she was awake in the emergency room. I was not drunk I have remembered the blood the emergency procedures and her screams and the fear she was dead for over forty years... I think she is better off not remembering. I still hate walking along side of a busy highway .

John Lynn has spent a life time teaching..the difference I see is teaching and debate John lynn and the folks of CES will not debate what they believe to be truth they teach it. I know they try to exhuast a topic in their learning before they put it out as doctrine as much as possible and will discuss the merits of their belifs and how they got to the point and they have even changed their views on certain topics over the years. But to be swayed by other ideals would be rare, CES has gone into other countries and worked with many different types of folks , they have worked with many different type of folks here.. They offer what they see and believe as truth as "lessons "and try to convince others of the same that is their career and occupation as a organization. the goal is to teach others what they have worked out as truth from the bible. The truth is grease spot is not really a platform for bible teaching and enlightenment the posters here who do speak of doctrine like Raf and Steve have been or is a part of what CES offers already. they do make the link possible for any interested folks but I would think the type of debates and agruement at this thread would be a waste when they want to cater to those who "have ears to hear" the truth as they offer it instead of debating it round and round with other issues or ideals that come up here. they are quite focused in their mission .

I doubt I would still be involved and I never was "involved" to the point of self destruction . Excathedra it is very important the fact you can not remember what happened to you and how, it may be blocked by the truama, our thoughts only handle what they are able to survive intact. sometimes a block is made to erase from the formost part to survive something the brain does not think it can survive with . this is why conseling and talking about truamas are so imediate , why they send conselors grief and otherwise to survivors of 911 and the school shooting or even the death of a class mate in the schools. the hospitals have crisis counselors for victims of crimes and rape and truama who write notes that can be very useful in the post mental health care that is needed. To say you do not remember may indicate a inability to process information you do have inside yourself. this is not a healthy response Excathedra a common one but not healthy as the pain and experience is valid and working every minute in your thoughts and unless dealt with can cause a life time of trouble you may never connect with just why you think the way you do or react in a manner you do to the original problem or truama. to not remember is more dangerous and capable of providing harm than to deal directly with the depression and truama with a professional who can help you cope and have a healthy life . it is not funny it is no way to cope , I hope you seek help to resolve this problem and I pray you find the strength to overcome and work with yourself and a professional to be happy and at peace with all of you.

I guess what I do not get is the fact parents would or could allow TWI any say so over who watched their kids.. they never demanded your kids go to a certain place you could have made other arrangements. In the early eighties "childrens fellowship" was huge at the limb meeting hundreds of children often times..I left my children with my mom on these occasions untill they were old enough to speak clearly about what they did and with whom . they enjoyed going at that point. MY own twig leader would take her children to a babysitters house (somone not in the way) when they held fellowship at their house. no one forced anyone to have their children left with another Im certain a "friend" may have offered their services hmmm ok again if it was a young child I would make my own arrangements with those I trusted. I never saw any demand for parents to force their children to be babysat for free.. or is it more like you wanted to "take the class" and couldnt find a sitter and the happy household volunteered their service and you gladly took them up on it ? and assumed all was well? I also know if someone is arrested for sexual abuse it does not mean they were convicted...or even guilty maybe he was I know not of your current highlighted story in AK. But if a person is convicted it is often the case they must stay away from all children as part of their parole and clearly "runing a childrens fellowship " would be in violation of such. this is how I feel about it my children where given to me to take care of not twi or its leaders.. it was an honor to have such a long and very difficult job and God was our saving grace through much. I am very sorry for the parents without the ability to see the honor and righteousness of such a calling goes above and beyond any group bible or not.

Again with the twist. My point is I do not think leaders openly allowed children to be molested or do I think they "condoned " molestation . Did they take action against people you had a problem with? maybe not that would be your job as a parent not a bible research group to get involved in your personal accusations and affairs..I know they did get involved in peoplels life yet they seldom went out of the ministry for problems to be solved and get involved in court and having people arrested. they did not stop anyone from going to the law , they may not have encouraged it if it was not something they agreed with. Abigail you say you where forbid well now they hand tied your ability to find a baby sitter and forced you to chose someone who was in question... or is it you felt pressure to belong and make the group happy and obeyed somone suggestion fearing they will not accept you or your husband would get angry Personal problems over ruled your better judgement and you compromised your childrens safety for twi? I saw that alot many parents lost their ability to keep their children safe to be involved in twi. it is sad indeed. I have raised teens a child can legaly have sex when he she is 17 years old... a teen or young adult who again compromises her self and regrets a bad choice learns a very tough leson indeed. but the law supercedes twi law and rape has been illegal for many years authorities could have been accessed by those who felt they had been violated. but apparently they were not for personal reasons again... the personal desire to belong to twi . or ignorance . or fear these sad stories happen all over the place eveyday to children who had parents who never instructed or protected their children from what this world offers as "love" or consel or caring or whatever name abuse may take on. to not report abuse or rape is bad and sad and that is why maybe more incidents were allowed to continue on other girls or boys. I also know parents can not be with their children all the time I was a working mom .. but we can tell our children to tell and then TELL our own self to make it stop. sure it is pressure and difficult if it is a family member or a person in your churchy group but it is a parents job. The fact a twi leader told you to keep quietand you chose to obey their instruction would indicate to me a much more serious problem within the individual who has the precious job of taking care of innocent children. my only point in this thread is I do not believe the leaders of twi condoned or encouraged child molestation , I do not believe twi set out to harbor crimes against children or take care of those who did. Do I think men will have sex with a sweet young girl who is willing ? you bet! do I think young girls are niave and at times seeking from older males giving them attention? YEP! Do I think people regret choices they make when they compromise themself sexualy ? yes sadly sometimes for a life time.. but it does not have to be so. do I think people get caught up in belonging to a group and listen to the wrong people in what is good for their life? yes it happens everyday. as far as stupid parents and niave teens and sexual abuse Yes it did happen probably more than anyone wants to know , this type of activity is common in our culture as a whole and twi had "new" people coming and going all the time and had a structure of people pleasing and group think mentality. a ripe forest for child molestation and abuse. Many stupid people with personal problems and history of abuse sought out consel from twi leaders, and what the leaders was for the most part was other stupid people with personal baggage and personal problems . personal responsibility in life and ability to make good choices for ones self is a growing up process, and much forgivness is neede to continue on in a healthy peaceful happy life.

this is not about cool waters and what she said or I said. I read the thread to be honest I rarely look at who writes what . This thread has said twi condoned or looked the other way when child abuse was complained about. ok who would care what any group said if your child was in jepardy ? hmm? the point made here maybe by rascal is that twi condoned and harbored folks they openly knew where child molesters even after they got arested the story just get thicker and thicker with no proof. that they knew some had molested and kept in the ranks of leadership as if they ok his behaviour, or wanted to protect their pals. the fact somone was arrested is no big surprise someone was arrested where I lived as well. and he was kicked out. I do not believe it was twi job to protect your children from who you chose to leave them with, I do believe children got abused I saw it often parents to stressed out to deal with life on normal terms . I know that people with sexual issues towards children do hang out with those who are otherwise distracted and unable to protect or confront them. this is no big shock or shouldnt be to anyone with kids. What I do not believe is that leaders condoned it or encouraged it or even tolerated it or organized it as a agenda of the organization. I also believe the parents themselves have the responsibility to keep their children safe from any kind of harm , and if they failed to be able to do so becuase what a leader said was more important it is a very much more serious problem than blaming a group for incidents of child abuse within it. I saw folks protecting and atacking others for their friends they liked and hung out with sure you can see that happening right here on this thread. and that is the reason some got away with some crimes it was/is to tough to stand up to if ya care about belonging more than your common sense or wisdom or the safety of your family.

I do not understand the question. it seems quite plain to me what is wrong with child abuse . child abuse at the hand of another person on my child would result in that person going to jail. if you chose to shame yourself CW that is your business.. what is wrong with child abuse? that is a simple answer of hurting an innocent or defenseless smaller person . Adults who fail to protect children from such crimes I think should feel shame and guilt those feeling may motivate them to look at what their job as a parent is and how important it is to you and God. To compromise such a noble calling because a "leader" told you to or your to young to make good choices for a defenseless child maybe the problem is more than twi. maybe. I am not making excuses for any abuse because I do not believe Twi was a ring that supplied molesters its prey. I just do not believe it. I think childen may have been hurt by the many number of neglectful parents in twi that were unable to take care of themself much less keep their children safe. twi came first and foremost to many by choice and like I said the cost was high for those unwilling to get a grip for whatever reason, some without question begged twi for their very life answers and got burned and harmed their children because of it. If you chose to feel guilt that is your issue. do not try to blame me now. I think a little shame and guilt may motivate change for a safer more positive life style that will not allow you or those you care about to not get hurt. . Or stand on this forum with your group of pals and get more accusing and tell some more tales no one can prove as truth or not and have it all planned out on just what the other guy did wrong and call it a party. I know people and children got abused while involved in twi,,, who is to blame is not as simple as saying it was a ring that was condoned by twi . I was in twi I never condoned it it was about people pleasing and keeping your friends beyond your better judgement even the welfare of your own children sometimes. sad . very sad . now the more you twist what I say try to have me thrown out and accuse me of stuff I never said , call me names just proves my point of the whole group mentality thinking that warps sound thinking. as long as you all agree your safe because your saying what one another wants to hear is a very dangerous place to be amoung groups as large as twi. but somhow it still works for ya! lol

oh boy this is what makes me sad. I listened to the rev tapes I never finished them . See I would like someone to teach me and I would like to walk around and say I KNOW this is what the bible says is true! because I believe God wants us to know and I desire to know. but then this kind of agruement happens and I get very sad. who do we believe? it seems far to complicated ya know? I think John is giving the idea it could go that way Steve// and maybe not as you say.. but these type of bible wars really hurt everyone do they not? John often teaches with his scope of the bible verses he has studied in mind as do I , I build on my learning in every subject something I learned last year can be added to something I see today to make a lesson clear. I think John is doing that in these tapes. How much liberty or trust is ok is up to the individual to decide I guess. If you think your debate is valid have you told them your idea ? what is their response they just ignore you? I think it is dangerous to start taking somone eles scope of learning for granted and assume he must be right because he has studied the bible for a career tho.

it is not that I do not care if one suffers we all suffer really. but the need to imagine it to be anything other than what it was, helps no one either. I do not think weirwille is special for pfal I never did nor did I think his leaders in the way were anything more than folks with jobs in a mininstry (or a cult) even that had an agenda. the problem is many of you guys did and now blame them for getting hurt by such thinking. it may be their agenda but it was your choice to buy into many of compromises you paid to be a part of it. not everyone went as far as others I recall the old saying you can go as far as fast as YOU want to with God. hahah God was far remeoved with what most had in mind to be doing it was all about the ministry for many, to heck with God or yourself. dam shame really. all of it.

the idea of being born again is what I think about. We are born here with a life and then we are "born again" to a spiritual life that begins here and battles the first life untill we meet at the bema and get healed. + I know twi made a big deal of rewards and punishments written about in the bible, these are actions that will be taken by the Lord for deeds done or not done in this life time... my example is clearly Paul who hunted and killed christians for the fact they believed in Jesus Christ.. he stopped when he converted yet he was converted by force . God forgave Him . the murder of those who where direct friends of the fresh new Christ had to be quite the sore spot with the saviour... yet he was forgiven. so forgivness plays a factor here as well. we are called before the foundation I guess it comes down to whether you believe one can lose the saving grace of the christ who died for all SINS. I do not know who will be in heaven , but I know some will be punished and still make it to life eternal . I suppose this gets into the idea of degrees of sin as well who has the bigger X or x remember the board of sins? I would rather think God is larger than that and will mete judgement in a sentence of sorts. maybe now maybe then .

I saw alot of child abuse in Twi and I stood up to every parent that thought a ministry was more important than their own families. it didnt work tho because that type of thinking comes within a person and can only be changed within the person who allows it to happen. it is not brain science to recognize child molesters will be around children or that fire freaks will belong to the fire departments. I told the girl who watched my children during fellowship she is not allowed to touch my children although she was instructed to slap other kids in the fellowship. I point blank told her I will put you in jail in a NY minute . and I would have no doubt. some parents ALLOWED their children to listen to the wrong people because they themselves trusted the wrong people and or wanted to impress the right people and got hurt by not protecting their own families. I saw it alot honestly . I said people pleasing was common at great expense. I remember the order as God first , families and your job then ministries functions. If a person was unable to maintain their life in order because they wanted to be bigger and better for the way who had the problem hmm? the way was happy to have idiots such as that and it was full of folks willing to compromise nearly every area to belong and impress one another. cool water what the hell are you saying ? I think child abuse is wrong but I think protecting yourself and your own children is the primary will Of God and if that is not happening for you you have a problem more serious than gee golly why did this happen to me? I make no excuse for those who have guilt and still wallow in it, child molester are rampant in our society . I do not think Twi was created to abuse children sexualy do I think molesters were involved? you bet, with some of the parents I saw in the way who would give anything to make the ladder in twi it was easy picking for sure. the bible asks us to be wise and to use our wisdom, it was about people pleasing and people got hurt you bet. but the problem belonged to who it belonged . God would not allow us to get hurt, trusting anyone with the care of your children was a choice people made. Im sorry things like molestation happen , but It does happen . the inability to protect yourself from that is another problem all together. a very personal one indeed. I do not believe the majority of people in the way had anything to do with this "ring" you claim to know of. I sure twi could care less what I think and Im not sticking up for any bad person in the way. But I know God and the Lord Jesus christ is a good Lord who we can trust I choseto give God the glory of living a life of peace and happiness instead of misery and bitterness.

My daily pain is not going to happen in a constant bitch session of it is all about the other guy fault. fault finding is fine,, and dandy that is why grease spot is here , but this conversation is also getting very old about how you knew it was wrong and complied anyway. and now get angry enough to complain? At least I admit I was stupid and wrong in what happened to me, it is the only way I grew up to understand the fact it was a bible study group of folks who cared about one another and got caught up in people pleasing and obeying one another for the perks of joinng a cult. I learned to LOVE through it all not hate. God myself and humans who need one another in the hard times. ironic isnt it? YOU know what? when you start this you cant prove nothing MJ what you say is invalid right back at ya baby doll , I was there , and I only speak for myself and those I know and still believe in loving God and one another. those of you in your own messes can just keep on keep on eating one another with your memories from hell and who fault is really is. it makes you look and sound like your insane when someone keeps saying gee golly I obeyed all these leaders and did horrid things to myself and allowed my children to be abused and etc. Will you please trust and listen to me as a person who is in the least bit sane now? UM no I will not. no one needs to shut up God knows you love this platform have at it all you want it is why this place is here so you think. keep in the muck and mire of crap in your life all I ask is for once to recognize it was a place to seek approval from those you chose to trust more than God almighty HImself and even you own self. and your still doing it . The tag team attacks generated on this board shows who is really trained and on board willing to dismiss and attack anyone who disagrees with your own inability to have a voice without one another . that is the cult I was in and the one that is alive and active on Grease spot cafe.

I also know of several families who went into the corps and came back out because they had sick children or couldnt manage the money at the time. They remained twig coordinators and went back in to graduate. I agree no one wanted to leave once they began the program and encouraged to try to get the monies and make arrangements for their life but many went in several times that I know of and eventualy graduated. How people "think" is a different matter . I happen to believe our children are not idols to be worshipped anymore than a organization like twi is ,life within the spirt goes beyond having children Rascal whether you chose to engage in it or not. children are a "part" of life a temporary one at that when it comes to care taking . I still believe God is the only reason my family flourished and prospered in many difficult situations not my own skill at being a god like character to those I chose to harbor much responsibility for . I put God first and still do . to use your children as an excuse to not take on a life of fullness and to do what you want is abusive to them and yourself. YOU put the blame of your abortion on others , like you where a child having a child you where unable to take responisibility for your own life and make a good choice for yourself. Life has pressures being grown up is living within those pressures and trusting God to live in a manner that pleases HIm, God loves you He would not harm you. the fact you and others here speak to the fact they were unable to make healthy choices or succeed in their goals with any peace speakes to your own issues not TWI. You next step will say Im sticking up for cowards , Im not , Im asking those who claim to be victims to consider their own place in the decision making process of "what happened". many more folks where able to maintain healthy boundaries and say no to those they felt pressure from. these stories of extreme do indeed tell alot about those who allowed them to happen and bottom line each person is responsible for only him or herself before the Lord. The fact people can get in your own relationship with God and sway your choices in life says alot to just where you really are spiritualy. to people please was common in twi, to try to impress others with who told you what and when was common. but never the less those who suffered the most in twi sought the approval of other twi people not God or His will for their life. and they still seek such at this forum . it is a lifestyle of co-dependcy, and yes plenty in twi, it fosters it, as does much of our culture. I am also a victim yet I learned it was NOT who or what helped me continue in the illness and fostered the problems but my own sense of who I am and my own personal power and strength in knowing and trusting Jesus Christ to be able to overcome the attraction to such groups and manner of thought.

Psalm 139:1-24 1 O Lord, You have searched me and You know me. 2 You know when I sit and when I rise; You perceive my thoughts from afar. 3 You discern my going out and my lying down; You are familiar with all my ways. . . . 11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me," 12 even the darkness will not be dark to You; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to You. . . . 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

I also do not think you have to be a christian to be "born again". God knows who he picked to have eternal life before he laid the foundation of this earth. think abut that for a moment. think about the fact many people have lived their entire life without being able to read the bible or tv! break open your mind on this. God is the searcher of our hearts and His words are like the marrow in our bones.... deep stuff. many are called few are chosen which means it has a level of knowledge and understanding and purpose in a spiritual realm that everyone will not understand in the same manner. God knows who He will save.. how we get their is a journey that is as personal as the Lord Jesus christ is to each person. many can say Lord Lord but the door will be closed. I think many are gliding now and thinking way to much about their own abilities to be a god to others .. they may have a surprize some day about who and what Lord means to God for us. confess with your mouth speaks a great truth in and of itself, i think it is an ongoing confessing of what your doing where your going and how and why with the Lord .. If God knew He was to offer you life eternal ages before you where born than the actual "saving" may be quite a simple process of decision . but eternal life and making Jesus Lord has many complex ideals involved doesnt it?

I thank God it can not be settled by me. I chose to not consider Jesus christ God, and believe me it has little to do with what I may have learned from twi, because I never really got into the debate after I changed my friends mind. it just doesnt make sense to me, I was born a babptist and I never have had any teaching other than Jesus being the only begotten son of God. If I am wrong I am and I will learn different , then or now Im think Im willing to learn but so far the trinity has never made any sense to me and I think idolitry is a dangerous thing to consider when thinking about the facts the way I read them.

The bible clearly states a commandment of you shall have no other God before me and clearly describes a God that desires worship solely to Him and HIm only and all others will be punished and die. the issue is deeper than paper it is idiol worship. As in the RC statues that folks pray to for various needs and ills etc. the fact is it appears to be worshiping a different God for their life and wants and needs. and praise is given to theses saints (appointed such title by the pope (a man))their powers and abilities to be greater than human. that describes a God to me. to worship idols is very serious in the bible and has destroyed many kingdoms and rules and people. As a person who puts equal worship and ability to the Risen christ in Jesus do you worship an idol ? do you put another in the position God almighty Claims to only HIS? do you compromise the creator of the universe in power to save to the uttermost the ends of the earth with a man he created for our well being and eternal life. What and how does Jesus christ describe His God the father? Certainly Jesus christ worshiped God as a man and called Him his Father and prayed for deliverence several times in his life as did his parents and followers.. He knew he was helpless to save His own life.. the issue is one of chosing to worship another God and making a idol . these choices bring death to those who chose to practice them or even believe them in their heart. no other God is a clear statement of what God demands from his children, he never says except one named Jesus christ who I also created. it is serious and something to consider if you truly want to obey God and His decrees.

uncle Hairy I work with men all men all of them are at least twenty years younger than me. I did enough mommy duty with my own as a single parent. I do not care take co-workers . let me say what you suggest is the only way it has worked for me. scare them worse I say. they want to get drunk and show up with no place to live sorry joe employee life is rough all over, they want to not pay their child support and lose their license it is not my problem . I have seen and worked with plenty and I always think I am going to get in worse trouble by telling them no, but so far they have backed down it is very stressful sometimes.. but the day I am afraid I will leave. or be killed . 90% are great guys . but i do have those who want to educate me on the fact they are a male they must be more capable. the ones who have been with me awhile stand in the background and wait untill they to learn how much I give a crap about a man who thinks he is more than a man. I lke to work with women but then I get the girls who think the guys should pick up their slack... because they are girls.. it goes both ways in my job. I tell the girls you must not discriminate yourself and most do not want the job anyway. I have a pretty one now and she is complaining to me that the guys frighten her so she has decided to tell the owner all her issues in life.. yeah he is the worse haha .he is a extreme macho homosexual haha . I say nothing.. lol . frankly I think it comes down to loving yourself and your job and doing well enough to NOT have to take any crap anymore and be willing to KNOW I can walk with who I am ok enough and not need the approval of an *** , a paycheck but not abuse. most know who the abusive ones tend to be and guys do not like them any better than anyone eles. I also pray alot at my job. Lord gives me strength just this week I had one tell me I disrespected him because I asked to go home early, i told him to write it down and take action against me... I lost all fear. some time ago.

exactly Shaz. I feel the same way they honestly believe the world needs to be on a mission from God. it is very ego inflating and power appealing to those who can NOT really stand with a genuine life and relationship with the Lord. that is why they need the people around them amass as well, they do not face life in honest terms if you ask me. it is high pressure sales and if they "win" it is a type of high or victory. it is a game , a business a life style( god) dificult to stop once embraced . it feeds something alright but not anything more than their own pat on the shoulder for helping those with a lesser or dimissed life in their eye. it makes me sick. did not Jesus say we are to be humble and a servant of others? Serving another isnt saying I have some food and if you do this and believe me on this and and and jump my hoops and we like you and accept you you can have it because IM a good servant of christ and your not.

I believe christ had a choice and GAVE his life as a living sacrafice for Gods people, like the animal sacrafice in the OT that covered for their sins Christ died to pay the price of Gods reckoning for our sins once and for all . first adam sinned as a man and then Jesus Christ showed us a much better way , by dying on the cross with the burden of all of our sin. I do not think it was a plan that was a slam dunk by any other means than a active loving choice by a man determined to please His father and who also loved each of us enough to end his life for the sin to stop and give us access and fellowship with the Holy spirit as Adam once had and as God originaly designed for us to live . He gave us a choice to believe in what He did or not and join in eternal life. A payment had to be made for sin by Gods rules and Jesus paid the price by giving something out of choice and that was his life for our sins. It is the spirit which does not sin , people can and often do sin . We grow in the spirit which means we grow into a more spiritual person capable of more spiritual manners and ways in obedience to God as Christ was our perfect example . our flesh just turns into dirt evenutaly it is our spirit life that will abide in new more perfect bodies in the kingdom.

He was capable of sin the devil tempted him for many days and offered him the entire world if he would bow down to his will. Jesus rebuked the devil. He was capable of listening to satan and doing what he wanted he had the same choices the first Adam did on who to listen to. He chose to obey God the Father. Now as the reserected christ and Saviour of Mankind (now that is a reward!) he can not sin , but in his earthly life he had as much sin nature as adam and eve did and we do.

I think the mistake that caused the most hurt was the thought we knew the truth and we were special and "set-apart" from you know those other unbelieving believers! it was a self righteous atitude of holier than tho which included anyone that is not in the way and making the current leader du joir happy. it was thinking we are more and improved and mightier than the rest of the world. it was an attitude of being equl with Jesus christ himself but maybe even better because we could speak in toungues whatever it got ill and Im glad it is over