mj412

Song I wonder if your still reading. I hope so. your comment about some who feel if the "word" wasnt true they would go insane . I will asume they are referring to the bible verses as "the word". ok. Well I have story that took me off that whole unfortunate train of thought . First let me say I think the promises in the bible are true. YET like many other issues and situations it is only what I think and nothing more or less. I once "reproved" (lol I HATE THAT WORD!!!) my son because I thought he was drinking to much alcohol to many times a week. side note I adore this child of mine in all the earth this one person has truly been my best buddy my harshest enemy and truly the love of my life. ever think about somone and your eyes light up with joy? ever want to live another day just because that person is alive? no matter what this kid has done that is how I feel towards him. so here I was thinking I need to tell him the evils of alcohol blah blah blah . Because of "the word". now mind you I have never even seen this guy drunk I just know he has a six pack once and awhile. So he says to me "Ma I do not use alcohol to escape from my problems"... like you use religon to ignore yours...." !!!!! BAM!!!!!!!!BAM !!!!!!! Some people use God as a crutch to get through the hard times . think about it what do these types do? pray , read some choice bible verses and think life is better or it will be or in the very least forget their trouble for a awhile. a person who drinks can accomplish the same mind by having a few beers with some friends!!!!! the next train of thought is the devil is attacking me for my stand on that so called "word" well in normal thinking when a person claim an invisable force is responsibile for their behaviour or outcomes in life we consider them in a very serious mental state of delusion and give medications which takes away such thoughts !!!!! this word that some cant function without isolates a person from other people as does excessive drug and alcohol abuse , when it is out of control. the bible and the attitude of having a special and select "word" NUMBS a person to reality much the same as getting drunk or being on drugs does!!!!!! When you say your friends say they would go insane if they had to consider what they call the word as not true , I say consider that statement in light of ANY THING in life other than "the word" or the bible it would be defined as addiction that is out of control , unrational thinking , denial , depression and mental illness. these are very real issues in our world today, and I submit "the word and its use of contribrutes as much as any other substance that is used to escape from reality of life.

Rascal I get it I get what your saying! the part where you think maybe we can pay a atonemnt for sin whe we are ignorant!!! Maybe in a sense this is about serving Jesus as LORD, ya know? WE have to recognize we were yet sinners when He died without sin.!!! for our sin. Rascal that was profound... and it the common ground isnt it? I feel so much more confortable around those who can say I made a mistake or I just do not know . Yet I also struggle with my darkest shame in life in ignorance of God mighty .

I think they are true. No I was not a witness. The personalities of the writers shine through in the writing. the feeling of the people would be common.

of course Paul was a Servant of Jesus after his conversion yet he was a person different than Jesus how he handled situation the manner in which he thought the way he spoke , how he reacted etc was certainly different than Jesus . the church was forming under paul's leadership, with a new risen christ as the head. Jesus had a completely different focus altogeher and the revelationship and what the people had been through was completly diferent so naturaly Paul would have to incorporate new ways and means of dealing with the information and teaching it to the christians. Jesus for one had a reputation of a healer and a rabbi and a all around good guy whereas Paul was a brutal killer of those he was about to address umm kind of feels like a new spin would be needed doesnt it now?

Rascal with children or folks who have an on going relationship with investment that might work. but I think the fact Jesus says to love instead of condem works better and he also says to forgive 70 times 7 or some such very large number. clearly because we all sin who stands on the IM ok your not platform? go ahead. not me I try to stay as humble as possible aware every minute the adversary is out to kill steal and destroy all of Gods children and our Saviour Jesus Christ paid the price for my sins. it is NOT my job to keep track of anothers sins, Jesus asks me to love. Jesus Deleivers a person from sin not this shuning and shaming ideal you suggest.

People who are always "forgiven" and never held accountable... Well, if you can't see a problem for them in this...nothing much I could say. when a person does not want to held accountable they do not the fact another thinks they should be often has very little to do with it. How does NOT forgiving somone hurt them ? so what your saying is it works for you to hold a grudge and condemm a person till they change to your liking??? well that only hurts you , for the most part the other party could probably care less .

in corinth they were "in glory" about the one who had sinned Paul was saying that the fact they had glory over it was like the leaven. vs6 it was hurting everyone the fact they had glory about the one who sinned. he would rather they mourned for the one who sinned.vs2 but they were puffed up about the fact he was taken away (the one who did the deed)vs3. Paul said their attitude of self righteousness was like the Leaven and ruining everyones attitude towards one another. VS^ clearly states the problem was with the self righteous ones who where puffed up and gloried in another who had sinned. he then addressed what was done in VS he said he had judged him and in the name of Jesus christ DELIVERED HIM !!!!!! the guy was healed of his sinned so in VS 5 THE SPIRIT may be SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus!!! WOW ! Paul was teling the folks to stop getting to self righteous and puffed up about how that man had done wrong . their Leaven was ruining everyones attitude. Paul said he had judged him and he delivered from his sin and his spirit was saved!!!!1 your glorying is not good . he was telling them they were wrong about judging their brother in christ. We fight not flesh and blood but spirits and principles etc.... fits in nicely here

how is it bad for the one forgiven? esp if you do not wish to continue in a relationship? I can not think how it would effect them at all.

but rascal how do we know if anyone really repents? because they say they no longer do it? cant go there with some of the folks I have come across as liars . people say what others want to hear and do as they want right? repentance means what to you? I think this is why I trust very few people. I try to pray and trust God to help me and put very little stock in people because we all fail and sin.

Vertical Limit I also have a person who hurt my family badly . like yours. I remeber when it was all fresh and I was more tormented than I am now. I could not be comforted for the pain he brought my life. I was a mess so angry and wanting vengence. I never felt so alone and afraid. One day my sister said to me... I wish he would get hit by a truck. ran over just smashed and bleed on the highway. when I heard that I felt relief for the first time in over a year. I was that angry and hurt. it felt good to hear another would suffer like he made us suffer. in fact it kind of still does... but I am not going to kill him . but I understand why somone would murder somone now. it is an overwhelming pain that ate me up. time has gone by . he is still alive I suppose. do I forgive him? to the point that I can function now in a manner that is better BUT if he ever was near me or my family I could probably kill him without a second thought. some do not deserve forgivness and I do not think God requires us to do so. but in a sense I had to allow alot of the anger go and understand and let it go and forgive enough to live without allowing the anger to kill me. I did forgive as much as possible.

Why is it needed to forgive anyone if you do not wish to carry on with a relationship of some sort? again it comes back to helping your own self feel better about the wrong done. to let the anger go away we need a place to put it and even if that means never talking or seeing them again . forgivness is about self more than the other party sometimes. a person who does you wrong has choices as well. they can care and ask for forgivness and recognize the relationship needs to change to grow. or they can pfff you and care less how you feel. either way your stuck with anger so I submit the forgivness is all about the one forgiving not so much the other party involved (UNLESS it is for a relationship to nuture and growand both are willing to invest in that relationship) forgivness is about changing how we feel about another and their deeds done or not done . I see forgivness as a work of self more than a work on relationship.. I mean I have relationship where in I get really angry this person doesnt realize the harm being done sometimes but he doesnt and I can not convince a person to change any more than the next , so I continue to forgive because I chose to have a relationship . it is all about me . If I was to stay angry and not forgive the relationship would suck. I think that is how relationships work . but if it just a person who I chose to no longer invest in I forgive so I do not have to be angry about what happened in my life. it doesnt involve the other person at all, yet I feel better knowing I am free of the emotion that is heavy and burdensome to carry around.

yes it is possible to not like the sin and love the person Ex. Jesus did it as an example of how we are to love.

that is how I feel daddy dog . they may never seek forgivness for being not my cup of tea why should they ? nor do I have a need to seek their love or forgivness . life is just life it takes all types we need not mesh into a like mind of borgs . I think the key is to let go of the hurt, and for me it takes forgiving people who really hurt me or misunderstanding me for lack of concern or whatever reason maybe even one I am not able to understand /

God certainly does not love every person in fact a very select few . Jesus christ commands us to love one another as he loves us. he didnt ask . now to further define what and how we "do" that love is another question isnt it?

ex I mean when I love somone and want a relationship to be healthy and honest forgivness must be included. We all disappoint those we love and it hurts (or it wouldnt be love at all) I was refering to raising him (as a baby and the forgivness of it he used to over eat and spit up on me) he then understood people sometimes do things they can not help to do and it hurts another but loves endures hardships and forgives one another for being human or love can never grow to a point of understanding and intimacy. it sounds as if you describe co-depency in your family excathdredra and YES therpy is one course to help families that have this abusive cycle. your own link describes the ability of such behaviours to follow into future generations if someone does not seek forgivness within their heart and break it.

so your base line of truth is what exactly? you bring in the name of christ and then cancel the story of His life and deeds , and make up your own . try being a little honest. His story is written and even a big mouth such as grease spot can not change the fact of what it says . try as you might to manipulate what he did or didnt do the story has NOT changed. now if your base line is all about what YOU think (yawn once again) have a riot.

Paul was a religous leader so zealous for the law he killed christians ! Jesus christ gave him the gift ministry of a great apostle!!!! forgivness was granted and he was exalted to a position of huge leadership to all gentile and JEW!!!!! helllo if your going to throw around what my Saviour is capable of please in his most precious name keep your facts straight.

how do you know who Jesus forgave? He laid down HIS LIFE for ALL!!!! So we could KNOW THE LOVE from God HE KNOWS towards us. Jesus Christ Loves us more all of us (all of mankind) more than any human that has ever lived. So much so God gave HIM the position of being our LORD and KING. to say he didnt forgive that somhow he just bitched and walked away is a lie from the utter depths of hell.

I think the part about giving his very life for those who sinned is RATHER TELLING about his attitude towards those who hurt HIM!!! it is kind of difficult to reconcile a relationship while your being tortured and murdered, but then again the reconcilation was for them anyway to a God who gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN Son. thank you Jesus Christ for your forgivness and the reconciliation it gave us all.

and it does often end in a passive aggressive stance , doesnt it? victim again and again and again but NO NEVER the ABUSER. give me a break , did you read the link those abused are often those that abuse ? aint it the truth ? I have to ask how is it one can be victimized and misunderstood continuously but yet find enough strength to carry on with so much anger and bitterness . victim indeed.

well this is kind of fun reading . catcup you can try to force rascal to recognize where you feel she did wrong. but she can not or has not yet recognized it . such is often the case in forgiving one another isnt it? one feels a wrong the other does not or refuses to recognizes the pain of another at their hand. so the cycle does repeat and it escalates untill so much damage is done . this is exactly why I think forgivness is a very personal thing that helps the victim so much , and why it does Not have to be about the other party asking for forgivness. because sometimes I dare say oftentimes it just doesnt happen . So I can forgive for myself and walk in the wisdom of knowing the Lord also forgives me and understands .

Developing compassion and gentleness toward innocent people will prevent survivors from perpetrating abusive behavior on others. Thus they can stop the cycle where they have the power to stop it: within their own hearts and lives. this is from the link ex gave . this has been my experience in life. When I am angry the vibe as I said in the earlier post of my life is angry and frightened. frightened because I am aware how close I to can lash out and hurt another because of the pain of the meory or the cost to my life or ones I love. this is how abuse is taught to children from a young age , it is how abusers get footholds in places of power. because we do what we know to do in life and abusers have been abused ... get it? I forgive because it is safer for me, for everyone. Life is nicer .

the thing between rascal and catcup aside... I do not require a person to ask for forgivness to forgive them. I have a sister that I feel hurts me by her selfishness and greed and I forgive her. She has never asked or recognized the damage done to our relationship by her hurtful words and deeds. It may be ignorance, or a persons own pain unresolved pain that blinds one to what they do when they react in situations and attack others. some do not know right from wrong . some refuse to care . my own forgivness is NOT on the condition I some how make it all ok . Because I often can not . I forgive because I have been forgiven . now the relationship and how I may interact with that person takes with it the wisdom I gained in that forgivness. I set boundaries with folks and how much anyone is allowed access to my life or my emotions is often set by the how much I can allow another to hurt me and in the manner they interact with me. my sister and I have lost the ability to be very intimate because of some of the choices and manner she continues to interact with me. I realize she is who she is and it has not changed for us.. so I interact with her on that base line. To stop my own self from getting hurt. but I do not blame her or hold a grudge or want her to change because I realize very few will change unless the motive comes within their own self to do so . I can love her very much now and I forgive the parts of our interactions that may hurt, and I limit her access. As Im certain she must do the same. yes in perfect situation it all comes clean in the wash of loving one another and forgiving.. relationships take a huge amount of work and I guess I have gotten to the point I can invest in those I feel will merit the best reward now. I take folks as they are and love them I hope to be granted the same in life.

the idea of being ambassadors for God got so out of control I think folks puffed up in what they could do for God while in the way people no longer needed the works of Jesus Christ because what they think they were accomplishing, going wow ,going into the corps, giving money was so much "greater" really.

I think Paul would "get involved" more and complain about individuals on a very personal level. I think Paul ministry was founded on the forgivness of Jesus Christ!!!!!! Pual had a great amount of religous pride so far as killing those who where christians and not "good enough" for God. He thought he was right and he could not have been more wrong . I have killed no one (so far so good) but I have woke from a guilty error that rings in my mind like a tape that wont end when I realized I was wrong about somone and hurt them. I can only imagine how Paul sought forgivness when he realized what he had done. being forgiven and the release of the guilt my wrong has brought has made it so much faster and easier to forgive anotherin life! who can bear that? Paul did . Jesus never wronged anyone yet He knew God so well He did the right thing. good for jesus christ that is why he is King of Kings YET I admire those of us who can do the big OH MY GOD IM so sorry and recover to allow another the same mercy in our life. Paul would have asked alot more questions I think try to get to the bottom of the situation try to learn the dynamics of what was going on with people before he "understood " and forgive anyone. But this I know Paul would forgive because he himself considered himself the chief of sinner, and knew the goodness of forgivness on a very personal level.