mj412

I think the spirit is perfect, and holy and just. humans and angels and animals are created in His image with the ability to understand and make choices. including jesus christ. ok ok not for nothing but I mean was it a mistake to give the angel lucifer so much power that he fought God almighty for a position in the heaven and had to be cast out? haha seriously I mean did God have a bad judgement of character in that promotion of the angel that is most beautiful or what really happened in that mess? I mean he has been angry about it every since and it has caused alot of problems for Gods other creations nameley us and the beasts. I truly believe god lets us chose how to perform in our life how to think what to believe the choices we make etc. and some of it he says is sinnful against his Will which is to be our creator and God the Father. Jesus christ role is suppose to have made it easier to make amends in the process of pleasing the one true God and His will for us. because he went through the same type of trials and problems and emotions and everything adam did and yet never diobeyed the will . I think if he had even a little bit of human in him which He did from Mary his mom then he made mistakes and god taught him or life or other people tat is our life. sin is when we directly chose to disobey God and get involved in the other powers that prevail on earth to please it or ourself.

I think many may consider a sin a mistake , the difference I see is the bible and the commandment to love one another and the element of being concious of a higher power and His ways and means of living. the fact we are told we need to forgive and actualy ask the father to forgive our sins but not so much with the mistakes. like I said I think mistakes are part of the learning process of life and sinsare to be disobedient or rebel against Gods will in our life. I had a WC grad say to me she asks for forgivness every night"just in case". I thought gee that is a good idea!

He made a mistake when he thought his disciples would pray for him in the garden and trusted them to do so . they didnt . sure he made mistakes but mistakes are not sin.. sin needs repentance and forgiveness mistakes takes on some learning maybe a maybe a regret or two. when we run into brick wall we learn how to do curves much better the next time right? I mean maybe it has just been me all these years but wwhat would I have lived without my glaring mistakes in life ? the kingdom is in the future but I do suppose we will again be learning about the King of King as well forever and eternity is our capcity to learn.

God likes love he likes people he likes the way we are. We are His fellowship He enjoys us. We are what we are and this concept of "self control" and lust can be taken out of controland turn into a religous prison . God likes his children to look good, to be healthy to have fun . How many records in the book talk about how a spoksman for God lady or gent fixing themselves up and looking good to meet another? many relationships in the bible refer to somone being handsome(david for one) or beautiful this would meanthey were attractive to the opposite sex which is for what purpose? do you think that is lustful in Gods eyes as well?

it does not say a thing about masturbation unless you chose to think it does. . I asked if you are for real because you asked what eyes and hands have to do with sex suggesting it MUST be mastubation when clearly most would think everything eles but that! eyes and hands have much to do with sex acts. two problems with your ideals #1 it does not imply or state anything about a person touching himself other than to wash away the defiled skin. #2 I doubt masterbation is considered sex or is menstration or semen sinful any more than blood is sinfull it is a fluid which we were created with in Gods image . where do you see anything remotely implying masturbation much less it is a sin? you state your conclusion is clear so where is it clearly written in any of these verses? if you chose to think beyond what they say go ahead but that is not a clear scripture stating masturbation is sin or even wrong.

what does hands or eyes have to do with sex? are you for real? what kind of question is that? God says it is wise for a man to not touch a virgin. He says if you burn for one another you must be comminted and marry and stop fooling around sexualy . he is talking about sex without actual intercourse here like lap dances and making out and dancing and stripping , bj, thing of that nature. God is saying do not get involved in the orgies and sexual habits that lead to SIN . to not use one another sexualy in any way . again he does not address masturbation. many people think as long as one does not have intercourse they must be ok and without sin .. like child molesters for example or the back seat of the car make out sessions etc.. the point is to have concern for your virgin and love one another and to make a commintment and not use one another for sexual lust which leads to heart break and sin . nothing to do with masturbation at all.

I read leviticus 16 and 17 as a record of being clean, it also refers to a womans mestruation. this is not neccesarily saying masturbation is bad.. if a man does not have sex for awhile their body will eject this fluid. (wet dreams) it is common in some young males . I believe the issue with the Lord in this passage is about staying clean from germs and bacteria and being clean on your SKIN. are you saying a wet dream or menus is sinful ? both have to do with body mechanics and not a choice of an individual . I see God as being very tender hearted towards his people and addressing issues that may come up with a person body they might not understand , so he educates His children on what to do as any parent would . I see nothing at all in Mathew concerning masturbation that is about the marriage promise and sex before marriage. SEx is sex and fornication is intercourse . no one can tell if someone has maturbated.. yet if a woman does not have the token of virginity or is pregnate it would be cause for divorce both can be recognized clearly by a husband that is not true of masturbation.. this verse says NOTHING about maturbation altogether. Galen the verse you speak may not be maturbation either, it could be the man ejected his seed on the ground during the sex act itself not neccesarily during masturbation.. of course that is about not wanting a child it is still used as a method of birth control today.

sky4 where does the bible address masturbation?

so not funny , how about those in Africa with HIV half the country is dead or dying of aids do you think they get surgery to stop the spread of what is destoying now three generations and most probably the entire country if something isnt done soon? that kind of information is just dangerous.. I can see it now heck im circumsized I can be risky in my behaviours Im safe..

the bible is rich and deep , with meaning. Our teacher is the Lord and we learn as disciples of His ways. that said I rather believe the major concern was with off spring in which they knew came from the penisand cutting away the useless skin allowing the( father, seed) of the nation itself and down through the ages to the Saviour of mankind . In the new testiment God talks about the Grafting IN (gentiles) which also involves cutting away the dead and planting a new life into a plant. same type of lesson used etc.

Oak I suggest you might enjoy reading C.S. Lewis . A famous author very famous.. who denied believing in God for most of his life because of the very same reasons you suggest! His mother died when he was a child he refused to believe in God. He is a brillant man and author and in later life did chose to believe ... Many consider Him as the #1 christian writer that ever lived. He does not use terms such as christ and god in his works and zero bible scripture yet clearly all agree they are most profound pointing to the idea of christianity! he wrote children books the lion witch and the wardrobe, and of course his satire the screwtape letters. where one demon is teaching a lesser demon on the pitfalls of christian living. very very funny! and many other writings. Oak you write as he writes in your doubts and trials you may really enjoy his writings they have helped many understand exactly what you address as valid concerns.

I disagree sky4. it is a choice to believe in our God and before Peter revealed the mystery it was also about blood line. when the brothers fought and one was put out of His fathers house because He tricked his father who was blind Unbelievers of the one true god had to begin their own tribes. this is just one example of pure rebellion the very first was of course adam and eve choosing sin over obeying God. the entire law was instilled by God to help people recognize their place with Him as a larger and better and good God. to be cut was a mark of belonging to the God of abraham and was used to identify who your family was. it gave his people a way to recognize or identify themselves as a seperate people . sin and rebeelion has been the nature of man since the very first one adam. the very very important fact that this blood line of royalty was what was need to consider JESUS CHRIST a high priest, without that bloodline pure down through the generation He never would have had the ability to redeem ALL of Gods children from SIN! God had instilled laws and he obeyed his own laws and a HUGE oart of all of the blood of CHRIST was who had had children with whom ! resulting in the saviour Jesus Christ by his mother mary and his father also was from a royal priesthood.. it is veryvery important to god who is who on a very personal baseline! the true God gives a Choice always has always will. As far a your idea of where religous ideas spring from well now anywhere and anything has been worshiped and still is today right? religous identification has very little of nothing to do with our spirit filled life worshiping God in reality. to be religous about anything takes on any number of motives correct? YET to have a God and a spirit and a relationship that connects to something larger than humanity is also complex and rich and deep . A spirit filled life is personal and a choice, where as a religous choice can take on any number of factors in the decision. they are seperate altogether. but this has not always been as easy to recognize or as rampant. this is why I asked you to look at just one example of many in the person of ESTER in the bible . the penalty was death Sky4 . MOses is another example . the fact no one was EVER able to fullfill the LAW is clear Sky4 . The idea of gee if we could just work are way into gods favor by rules and regualations is religous . and it NEVER worked because untill the blood line of christ rose up in a man willing to die and be raised as a sacrafice for our sin no one could please God. in the least we still can not that is why we identify with the blood of CHRIST TODAY ok ok and that blood was brought through Gods own people ok? and how did anyone know who is who? to be circumsized was key part of the law of our God. It cut away our flesh life (including which group or tribe or church how ever you want to say it) and led us into a SPIRIT FILLED life with the King of KINGs who is spirit. totaly seperate.... We no longer need our males to be cut open to prove we belong to the blood of our Father Abraham ... we have a spirit within us now if we believe in Jesus christ and His accomplishments. as I said before and you just do not get it , this is a story of real live actual PEOPLE not just ideals and thinking and maybe I will chose this way or not. Abraham was a father of a nation of Gods elect for a PURPOSE why did they want that child so badly if it was all about what they wanted to worship of course not it was about BLOOD the red stuff pouring from our veins..... untilll christ was able to redeem us all .. amen and praise God.

a key word is PEOPLE here sky 4 . people are made by a seed or a man ( again think of the culture and mind set) The blood line itself is very important at this point to Abraham and God... jews did not marry those who worshiped strange God or have sex. (if they obeyed of course) so..... to know one was "called out" from the others as seperate not doing the orgies and sexual activities including with beasts and statues and a number of idea one needed to be identified as a jew. to claim to be worshiping the God of abraham.. laws and rules are and were given by the leaders and govt. of the day and as I referred you to ester death was a result of not obeying a Kings law . Anyone could say i am a jew but circumszing was a identification that proved your religous alliance .... get the identification process now? very important very important when Gods law was to be obeyed before a king etc.. Jews have often been thrown out of their land Sky4 or /and wars have begun in what they consider their land. You seem to not realize how orthadox Jews live then or today when you write like they are on friendly terms of course as is today business are set up and communities are political BUT then and today it is and always will be a seperate person living under the guide lines of the LAW . Have you ever met or spent any time around orthadox Jews? not like hey Im jewish lets eat a bagel and some fish Im talking about those living in the will of God which is very complex in regs and rules and often time have clash with every other culture or even laws of the day. today a person can say Im a christian and I believe abortion is wrong in God will, yet it is legal in our country. How about when a King decrees all women are to have abortions in his land or die. death was almost always the case of punishment . to have an appeal one would have to prove he was a jew and the surgery was a identification of his blood line .

I have to rush now and get ready for work. here are my thoughts . I am reading about Ester. again sky4it your lack of knowledge of the jewish people and history is showing. Jews can only marry jews. it was law to keep the tribes healthy and pure. yes it changed when the mystery was to include the gentile only because Jesus christ had taken on death and won in victory. Up to that point how did one tell who was who? do you think some jews stayed after they were released of course they did they had set up business and families and wanted to be in the community they had been in for years!!! so many lied about being jews . Look at the book of Ester as just one example of many. look at the penis. naked was common in the Roman culture and it was clearly visable who was who . Again I ask you to look at the PRACTICAL sense of real live people living in real live culture . the bible is a record of people that lived not a story of what God thinks about situation. TRY to consider where and what the jewish people dealt with politicaly SKY4 . it was to keep the blood line pure and for identification purpose. it was law . God is a God of people not just theory. I know this about the Lord He often puts His ways and meaning in a complex form that is rich and life long learning for ears to hear of course. I do not put His teachings in a box and say it is all about this one idea unless it is clearly written as such. here is the problem... you must be wrong or the same RULE would apply to Gentiles and we would all have to be cut for God to be honored. We do not so your idea is off . God does not change his mind about ideals he feels about sin esp. sexual sin. it was for identification and the bloodline and consider this surgery was not just a snip and tuck and be on your merry way in those days it was a VERY VERY serious thing no anitseptic no clean knife many many DIED during this procedure it was to risk life itself and make the choice to be willing to die for God and his commandment!!!!! it was about faith in HIM and obedience and frankly in practical terms identification as His Chosen where often slaves or captured in lands and hated as a people.

When I was marked it was by the LC who knew the situation because I told him. the fact he held a meeting and told all the other fellowships to avoid me and then told them why( which was in a private phone call with him) is what gave twi its power. to sit there and claim to love one another as brother and sister inchrist and pick and chose who belongs and who doesnt by what another may think is false witness to me. How is it that sin is just sin and grace abounds when it came around to their own messy crap? but when it was "confronted" by a leader everyone I knew feared to the point of not saying the truth even when they knew different . it is passive but is that not also false witness? to agree with what you knew was wrong?

I am not answering for danny but I agree about the war and Gods. many wars have a religous base line. who is your God?who does he love ? we do not believe in that one has caused many many wars and murders. think about it just for a second today we are involved in a war about a nation believing in a God that tells them we are an evil people (americans) working for their idea of the anti God. all gods take a faith all of them the question is what is genuine faith in which God isnt it? it is the basic searching of mankind and much blood has been shed over this ideal.

It is about integrity as a person. it breaks people down when they know they are dishonest. a lie is evil and false witness is a lie that hurts Gods chosen people. I work for a guy that will lie and he has also asked me to lie to folks I wont do it. I say ***** said that lie lie . or he tells meto tell you ****. I have had very sharp people ask me who happen to have run into his problem they ask me is he lying? and I will tell the truth the way I see it. for example if he says he will be back in five minutes and I know he is 300 miles away and has no intention of being anywhere near I will say , as far as I know he is in and state the town he is at. I tell him as well. they figure it out quick. See I know I believe Jesus asks us to love one another and false witness is crap and very unloving, I frankly wont do it. It has been my experience this has drawn me closer to the Lord. People end up in his face . He has aksed me to make up stuff about someone and I say no not me, it may even have helped me in my job if I did it , but I am the Lords child and Jesus knows I love His way . How do I know the other person is not called or frankly would I want somene to do this to me? I may work for this guy but i trust the Lord to protect me from his evil ways and He does because I put trust in being honest and loving first before even my paycheck. it isnt easy . MY point oh yeah. when anyone begins the spiral of false witness it becomes a trap and a prison and a habit. it breaks who they are can they really sleep at night and who they look at in the mirror in the morning ya know? it destroys a person where they begin to doubt even what they say they can no longer trust even their own self. it is serious. it breaks a person down into a spineless lying fearfull puppet.

"it upsets me to see so many good , hard working people be completely dishonored by a few who do not know better". followed by "now you know" well well well I feel the exact same way about CES and spirit and truth , how they began their group how they maintain their arrogant pompous attitude and can even teach it to more who do not "know better". Im the one who wrote about how john and mark are very happy working when they dam well feel like it, traveling when they want to, and going to school on your pay check billy. those two have 8 children that will also have their college tuition paid for by you and your loyal paycheck. it is a good life isnt it? they built the ministry on their split from twi, followers trained to pay more than 10% by John Lynn himself in twi continue to do so.. and many more than not are still involved with them. they buy their way to God favor. Way corpes allowed them to live high in twi , and they will continue the lifestyle they want , they know how to do it no doubt . um billy boy where do you think they learned such skills to be going to college now so they can start a fresh new ministry without those pesky twi followers who can see a PATTERN of abuse in this. and get some credits without the cult monkey forever it may be needed to keep it going you know for the kids and all someday. IF you had the perspective I have from years of what they have been doing anyone can clearly see they know how to do what they do very well and that is take care of their own at any cost. mostly anyone who would question them, or have the WHOLE story on just how they have gotten this far will be trashed or dismissed in any way possible . like you said there is plenty who just do NOT KNOW who believe what they say must be the whole truth and it isnt by far. trust them??? for those who like to tell storys and teach others they sure do leave out huge chunks of their own honest history.

chas Im the one who needed diapers when I first handed my kids the car keys. trust me on this one. just a warning. milestones of life.

normal as in not being used and abused in a wasted time spent it has NOTING to do with culture Galen. if the culture is abusive and a person is not able to flourish his own self it is a waste and clearly in the "culture" or system of twi personal growth was destroyed and stunted. maybe for life. growth takes change and new ideas and the ability to cope without group think and co-dependency. personal growth takes independent thinking, twi offered none of these avenues of thought and in fact murdered the ability to do such in many.

personal growth???? hahahahhaha personal torture maybe. I do not agree with the rosy glasses you have on. Many ex-twi and those still involved would have a better quality of life if not for the CULT!] no I do not wonder what it may have been without it in a sorry poor me mode of thinking but I KNOW the pain lingers for many for an entire life time. personal growth can be accomplished by our LORD and by our own particpating in a NORMAL lifestyle. I try not to think of the cost but I will NEVER dismiss the cost of many that will not be repaired . I personaly have learned I do not need to go through he11 to learn I am being used and abused and you want me to say that is GROWTH?? it isnt growth see in a NORMAL person they kind of recognize that as a given in life. many of us did not. and still struggle with it. this growth was and is NOT needed in life.

That was heart breaking. Lord Jesus have mercy on their souls, how cold and calculating. he makes it sound like you stole their fine china or killed their puppy or worse. look at the contrast look at it. your letter then his . nothing has been done to RESPOND to ANY of the word of God that has been given to you. what did he want do you know or was he just trying to blow you off as a bother and a no good for nothing. that is awful stuff song. what baout the fact the bible says we are to be kind to one another ? that was NOT KIND> and you begging to belong where does he get off with that letter just where? you can not go to his twi anymore huh?

I read jeff's link and it gives alot of information about what John thinks about many many topics. I can understand why he doesnt want to debate and agrue in this forum he for one doesnt want to speak his mind without calculated thought and comparison to "the word" . I do not know if this is right or wrong but it is his choice isnt it? few here have their personal life questioned or debated we only go with the information a person choses to post. Pawtucket has clearly defined personal information as against the rules . so in a way John is alot more forthcoming about what he thinks about topics than many here . I would like to discuss things with him and he has made his e-mail available but I will say for the record when i went that route a few years ago and asked them questions they did ignore me all together when they didnt think I was right they came up with a bible verse instead of a direct answer .. to them that is their direct answer at times I do not think it is sharing or honest just a little game. sales and all.

I think I know the difference between patience and longsuffering. I suffer in life, I get hurt those I love and know get hurt we suffer llife itself and death. we miss one another we see one another sin or fall short and must move on without and we suffer for it. I had to pray for patience for years, adn I think Im getting it, I used to be irrated standing in line at the bank with one teller open on a friday night and pray to be patient . If I break a leg I must be patient for it to heal. But if my leg falls off I must suffer long without it. it has to do with a time and matter of degree in waiting for the Lord to deliver.

oh no that isnt true maybe some but not across the board rule by far. I know marriages that split because of the way and they are now ordained leader in the way . I know of many marriages where only one spouse did the way thing. still do. but if the "unbeliever" choses to leave they leave and the one "standing is not to feel bad. it is written but no one is claiming LCM left twi at all so where is the problem?