Charity

What you said above has become my benchmark since coming to GSC. Googles definition of benchmark is " a standard or point of reference against which things may be compared or assessed. Now I attempt to look for Jesus' authority and directives in everything I read in the Bible and what I read on here. It's what's absent in knowing about Jesus only in my mind. It's what's present in knowing Jesus both from the scriptures and from his spirit living in me.

Thanks OldSkool for pointing out from the word what it means to have Christ in us. Along with what you shared, God uses the word riches to describe the wealth of glorious truths involved in having Christ in us. Col 1:27 “To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” Reflecting on this brought to mind what I wrote in a previous post how ‘Christ in you…falls flat.’ My saying this tarnished the glory of having Christ in you in a way that I did not intend. The point I was trying to make is that in order to be transformed into becoming more like Christ, we need to renew our minds not only to the scriptures that describe the nature of Christ being in us but also to the scriptures that teaches Christ living in us. Gal 2:20 says, I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.” That verb “lives” is in the active voice. I learned of the former when I was in twi, but for me now, it's the learning of the latter that is making the difference in my life. What does it mean that Christ lives in us? One way is to see that just as Jesus interacted with his apostles when he lived with them (shown in the Gospels), he also interacts with us now because lives in us (shown in the Epistles). It's a two-way relationship and fellowship they shared with each other.

Great - I got the bathwater link from OldSkool. Thanks for all the info!

Is this it? https://web.archive.org/web/20030713171917/http://www.livingepistlessociety.org/10Blue2.htm

3 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, I dwell in, settle in, am established in (permanently), inhabit. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. In Ephesians 3:2 Paul talks about the administration of God’s grace which he reveals in vs. 3 is the mystery. He goes on to talk about the mystery in vs. 4 (the mystery of Christ), vs. 6 and vs. 9 (the administration of this mystery). Verse 6 explains, This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. I understand that one of the main problems with the "administration" doctrine is that vp used it to teach "to whom it's written" which reduced the applicable portion of the Bible to just the Church epistles. Rev 10:7 above talks about how the mystery of God should be finished. I don't understand how this verse is a problem for the administration of Grace concept which I assume is a reference to Eph 32:2. Can you explain more about what you meant. Thanks, Charity

Hi there, I remember vp talking about "Christ in you" in the class, but I don't remember much about how he taught it. Regardless, the problem is if he taught it one way at a certain place and time doesn't mean he didn't screw it up when teaching it at a different place and time. You say that vp did not ignore that Christ is present through the spirit but don't you think that his work on the holy spirit field is filled with errors? I'm pretty sure I know how you feel about the issue of "speaking in tongues" that comes up at the end of session 12. The "Christ in you" doctrine is great when you're thinking, "Yeah! We have his righteousness!, his holiness!, his boldness!" or "Heh, we can do all things because it's Christ in us!," but imo it falls flat on its face if you don't understand how Christ's spirit works in you. According to vp's "great principle," we operate (work) the spirit which I and others on GSC believe is flat out wrong. (You can check it out on the "Great Principle Whitewashed?" thread if you haven't already.) Like you've done with the blue book, have you reviewed vp's writings about the spirit (which is the Christ in us) to work out what you believed was right or wrong with what he taught? If you've written about it, I'd be very interested in reading it.

Hi Raf, thanks for the intro - it's a pleasure to write to you. I have seen your posts on a few older threads. Within the past two days, I discovered two of them where you and others were often quite entertaining while discussing the topics. They are https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/2486-if-raf-were-the-devil/ https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4305-are-grease-spotters-possessed/ I'd really like to read the two threads you mentioned above. Are you able to post where they are to make it easier to access them? If you can, great! Now I'm off to reply to one of your other posts.

No Mike, they are not pretty much the same - they have different meanings. Fellowship is to share fully and relationship is how two people are connected. All fellowships require a relationship (husband/wife; parent/child) but not all relationships require fellowship (an estranged brother; tenant-landlord; employer/employee). Our relationship with Jesus is that he is forever our Lord, our Savior, our brother, our advocate, our teacher, etc. Our fellowship with him is 24/7, loving, private, trusting, involves sharing and communicating, etc. When I talk about having a personal relationship or personal fellowship with Jesus, I mean it's just between the two of us and includes the above connections and qualities.

Mike, my original post was about having personal fellowship with Christ because 1 John 1:3 is about fellowship. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son. You immediately changed it in your reply to a personal relationship with him. We have to go back to the word fellowship. I think I remember something from pfal that says "fellowship" is the Greek word "koinónia" which meant sharing fully. Correct me if I'm wrong. Sharing requires two or more people. Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines fellowship as "companionship" and companionship requires companions companions requires two or more people. Do you need to see scriptures that demonstrate this sharing or companionship that 1 John says they had with the Father and his son?

That is a great suggestion. Maybe Mike would be able to connect to this. So just as he walks and talks with twi leaders, he does the same with his Lord and Savior. But this is impossible unless one gets rid of the "great principle" in their lives.

What kind of relationship did the writers of the New Testament have with Jesus that enabled them to write these books?

Relax Mike, I was using the word "personal" as meaning intimate. Intimate is a synonym for the word personal. According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, "intimate" has several meanings. Here are a few: 1a : marked by a warm friendship developing through long association intimate friends 2: of a very personal or private nature intimate secrets 3: marked by very close association, contact, or familiarity intimate knowledge of the law Does that make more sense to you? If not, I can explain.

I agree that those phrases could be seen as being radical. In reality, I don’t think “their spiritual power” amounts to more than a tap on the shoulder. Here's another phrase that stands out to me: “First and foremost, we each enjoy the fellowship with our heavenly Father. Then in God’s household we enjoy the fellowship of one another AS FAITHFUL FOLLOWERS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST who are eager to stand with resolve, ready to help one another, ready to pray with and for one another, and ready to prevail with power from on high. From: Fellowship - The Way International This phrase could explain why they left Christ out of their first sentence. It ties in with their "you replace the absent Christ" doctrine. The phrase "as faithful followers of our Lord Jesus Christ" sounds so Christian-like yet in this case, I think twi corruptly uses these words to justify how they replace the absent Christ here on earth. So if each one replaces the absent Christ, then by simply having fellowship with one another, they can argue they are having fellowship with Christ. It's a cunningly devised fable in order to corrupt the meaning of Christianity which is to have personal fellowship with Christ himself.

You're welcome. Ask them what they think about my revision. They can use it if they want, it's not copyrighted and I won't ask for royalties.

https://www.theway.org/about-us/fellowship/ Here's the website so you can find out for yourself. You'll see Jesus is mentioned only that one time. https://www.theway.org/about-us/fellowship/ No wonder I still feel embarrassed to mention Jesus when talking to someone about God. While in twi, I learned that compared to God, Jesus was a pipsqueak.

The following was on the "Fellowship" page of twi's website: “First and foremost, we each enjoy the fellowship with our heavenly Father. Then in God’s household we enjoy the fellowship of one another as faithful followers of our Lord Jesus Christ who are eager to stand with resolve, ready to help one another, ready to pray with and for one another, and ready to prevail with power from on high. This is not the order for fellowship as clearly shown in 1 John 1:3-4. Verse 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father AND with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete. First and foremost, our fellowship is with both God and Jesus Christ. Once again, twi gives Jesus a demotion which means a reduction in rank and status. It's so unbelievable and yet so boldy stated. How's this instead: First and foremost, our fellowship is with both God and Jesus Christ our Lord through whom we are able to stand with resolve and be ready to help one another, pray with and for one another and prevail with power from on high as we fellowship together in God's household. The difference is placing the focus on God and Jesus Christ instead of the believer.

One more thing... I found the book, Jesus Christ Our Passover, very moving to read. I saw in painful detail of all that Jesus went through which was then followed by being very touched by his immense love for us as shown by willingly becoming our Passover lamb. It blessed me so much at the time that I wrote a children's version of the book for my son. So I believe the doctrine about the purpose of Jesus' ministry, his death and his resurrection were taught in that book. However, the sad part was that for the time I was in twi both before and even after reading Jesus Christ Our Passover, I don't remember being taught the value and importance of having a relationship with him. Neither did I see one being modeled by the leaders I'd known.

Thanks for understand OldSkool. I'm sure there are many others who also had regrets when looking back at certain aspects of their service while in twi. I can count myself as being one of them. I'm thinking from what you share in your posts that you have found peace since then.

This is one "testimony" I can give about the absent Christ in my life while in twi. When I used to go witnessing, I don't remember bringing up Jesus much at all, certainly not about having a relationship with him. It was mostly about God and twi, pfal and twig fellowships. This must have been the case because for years after being out of twi, I felt uncomfortable mentioning Jesus in my conversations with others about God. It's still somewhat embarrassing even now to imagine me talking about him - the reasons for this I can't exactly put my finger on at the moment. I doubt I would have experienced any of the above if Christ was alive and kicking in twi.

Raf, I know I am a newbie, but I have shared my thoughts in green underneath your own. A question though: Did Jesus ever say God was an “absent Father” because He wasn’t actually present on earth when Jesus was?

Yes Mike and I'll reply to it tomorrow.

Well said T-Bone.

I am so grateful to you OldSkool for taking the time to put the above together. It's clear and precise and absolutely proves from scripture how involved Christ is in our lives. And it so negates the "absent Christ" dogma of twi. As you might remember, I only began posting on GSC recently (in late November of last year to be exact), and it was only after I began reading many of the posts on this thread at the time. That was when I realized that buying into the "absent Christ" doctrine and practices of twi had resulted in me only having an intellectual knowledge of Christ as you wrote about above, "Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesn’t do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplished works." Since then, you and many others helped me to understand that Christianity is all about having a personal relationship with Christ. That's when everything changed between Christ and I. It's like instead of watching the same player in the same old hockey game over and over again , you can now get on the ice and actually play the game with him (or her) . I have made a word document of what you wrote as it's a great reference of truth concerning this topic.

Thanks Chockfull, reading your analysis was easy on my brain cells which helps when delving into the book of Revelation for the first time. I'm sure there will be more food for thought as posts keep coming in.

After thinking about this some more, I realize that claiming to know what "the truth" is was the foundation that twi was said to be built upon and we know that claim is a huge, fat lie and we all know the hurt and arrogance that lie brought into our lives. Claiming to know "the truth" has led in the past to persecution and even wars within the body of Christ. This is not what Christianity is. Jesus spoke the truth and Christianity is about having a personal relationship with him and through him we come to know the Father. Personal means it's between the believer and Christ as we are led by the spirit he gave us. Our understanding of him and his words is meant to be a personal one and we are meant to walk in love towards each other as 1 Cor 13 defines it. All of this has been shared here many times before, even once or twice by yours truly.