Sunesis

Great post Sirguess. We don't see people die nowadays, its all done in hospitals and nursing homes, behind closed doors, hidden away in institutions - not at home with friends and family around like just 100-50 years ago. But it is a natural function of life. We cannot be afraid of it. Nero, you sound like you are handling it fine, while the TWI doctrine your sis is "standing" on is sinking - she just can't deal. Hospice is wonderful if the person is dying. The patient has a "team" - the nurse, the faith counselor, I forget what the other lady's function was. But many times the person will not talk about God or religion with their family but will with his faith counselor. They help the person accept and come to terms and peace with their death. I had some wonderful talks with the faith counselor. The hospice nurse is there every day. If a patient is in pain - and some are in terrible pain - they cut through any red tape and get the drugs now - not tomorrow or whenever the nursing home doctor gets them - which can take time. I'm so used to going either to the hospital or nursing home to visit every weekend, and sometimes during the week that I don't know what to do with the time anymore - its been almost 5 years of this. But I have such an appreciation for aging, and what goes on that I never had or knew before, and much more compassion for elderly sick people. You dad will be in my prayers. Hang in there.

I agree 100% Dont Worry. As a female, I walked out of the CF&S class the first time. I was appalled by the whole "submission" bit - people got very angry for me walking out. I said to one of the gals who ran it on the way out, "The only man I'll follow and submit to is Christ." Of course, later I retook it - had to to get in the corps. But the way VP was teaching it I knew somehow was just not right and it really po'ed me off. I had to walk. I watched many of the top leadership and how they treated their wives - and it was appalling. I realized then I could never marry someone in the corps - if this is what they had been taught. Oh sure, they'd be great in the courtship phase - but who knew what hidden things would come up once I was "his" after marriage. I saw the nicest men turn into nasty people. Why? Because they could, they have been given a license to sin. Yes, VP's misogyny I think was apparent to quite a few females. Some of the corps meetings he'd call for women only, he'd say the nastiest stuff about his wife - with her sitting next to him, or other women - I used to so wonder where he got his crudeness. I imagine he enjoyed it - humilating his wife and insulting women. He was just downright crude and lewd. I then wonder why we put up with it - cult mentality is all I can think of.

Your friend sounds like one of Job's miserable comforters - you don't need her help or "comfort" right now. I would tell her I still love her, but she adds nothing to the situation right now, you have enough on your plate, and will talk to her later when you are ready. As I said, my father died this Sept. 22nd. He had been in the full care nursing home for almost a year. The nurses there were just wonderful, plus his doctor. Later, in the final stage, when he needed more pain meds Hospice came in and were wonderful and helped him die peacefully. Hospice is just awesome. This is a new journey for you, your mom and uncle. It may seem weird at first, but its just another normal stage of life. I adored his nursing home nurses and so did dad, especially the "cute blond." They loved the old guy. The nursing homes are modern, bright - not those awful places our grandparents dealt with. In fact after he died, a couple of weeks later I went back, brought the nurses a card, thanked them for everything and we all hugged. It was great closure. I last saw them the day he died. They were right there with him too. I needed to go back and thank them and have closure. We forget, they grow attached to the old folks too! Its nice to let them know how much they are appreciated. It sounds great that you, your mom and uncle are in agreement. Your sister is dealing with it in her limited TWI fashion. She may find there is no foundation there for her. As long as you and your mom and uncle are united, I wouldn't worry about what my sister may try to do. You be your father's protector now, as he was yours once.

After the hospital stay, they will ask if you want to release him for either a nursing home, or rehab. If he has no insurance, Medicare should pick up the rehab tab. But, and believe me here, take it if they offer it!!!!! You need to talk to the hospital social worker ASAP. They are extremely helpful and will recommend places, whether its rehab or nursing, and will talk to the facilities and get him a bed there. The ambulance will transport him over. It is hard when our parents get old. Remember, they now become the child and we become the parent. It is truly now our turn to take care of them. As far as pulling the plug - tell your sister - not so fast - its amazing with rehab or nursing how they can recover. We thought my father was dead at least twice - he wasn't going to make it, and lo and behold, after a couple of weeks he was up. Do not dread the nursing home. They are not what was available when our parents grew up. It is just a fact of life. If you cannot care for them - as you are not a nurse or a doctor - eventually it gets to a point where they need care beyond what you can give. Most nursing homes with the now stringent state regulations are quite good. You have no idea how many meds, bathing, diaper changing, etc. he will need - it can get confusing and overwhelming. If he comes around, you must get a lawyer and get his Will, Power of Attorney and Medical living will drawn up ASAP. There are lawyers who will come to his bedside. You are already arguing with other family members about "what he would want." He must tell you. The hospital will not do "what he would want." My father had a "do not resusitate" order. You need to find out what he wants and have in a legal document. Someone also must have power of attorney to do his bills, finances, etc. Older people will surprise you, you may not like seeing him this way, but it is reality and what happens to humans as they age. Stand strong, take charge, tell sis to knock it off - he's not dead yet. Talk to the hospital social worker, find out how things work and go with her recommendations - trust me, they've dealt with thousands of situations. Learn from this. God will get him situated in a good situation. You also need to tour and go see any places she recommends for him. I did, then told her which one to send him to when the time came. Welcome to the new world of parental health care - it may seem overwhelming, but just take it one day at a time.

My elderly father, several times when he was in the hospital, had dementia. I loved him the same, he did come back and it had nothing to do with his soul or spirit. The brain is an organ, like a heart or kidney - it can get damaged. Your father will be himself, but with a damaged brain. He will not be possessed, he will not be a "husk" and no one else will be walking around in him, or whatever TWI would have you believe. He is simply your father with a damaged brain. Please don't "spiritualize" what has happened to your father. If you pray, you need to pray for physical healing of his brain. Read Bliss' post above, she has great insight. Pray for him and love him.

Beyond the thinkable, requires another mind at work - Cman - awesome profound statement.

Garth, Oakspear, Bramble, thank you for your answers. I really appreciate them. I also agree, that all people, all of humanity has morals. So I do not think you can say one person is better than the other because of "morals." But it seems, for believer and unbeliever, "morals" have become the standard of judging as to what is a good person and what is not. My question would then be, to an atheist - is there anything that transcends morals? I'm thinking of this in the context of, say someone is cheated. One of humanity's oldest cries, from the beginning is: That's Not Fair! My question would be, where did this higher sense of "fairness" come from? This higher sense of justice? Is there a higher "moral imperative" as Kant would say? Is there an ultimate beyond morals, that transcends morals? And if so, what is it? So is a person then ultimately judged by his morals and how moral he is? Is that what makes a person "good" - how moral he is? If I cheat you, and you feel its not fair, according to my morals it is fair - I could say you just haven't evolved enough to see it my way. Or, if the sense of fairness, that innate "rightness" that people of all cultures have, is it something that just evolved? Or is it the image of God deeply innate in all people? If one believes there is no transcendence, but that morals developed by evolution is man then living on a horizontal plane only? I.e., looking only straight ahead, not above? If one believes in transcendence, the vertical, above, is he limited by his "morals" in the horizontal? I.e., if one lives only by the 5 senses and what he can see, has he no imagination? Can he not see above, beyond, and outside himself? How, if he can, and where does this gift come from, to see beyond his 5 senses - if all is only 5 senses and there is no transcendance? These are just things I've wondered over the years and I am enjoying the give and take here. I am interested in seeing how an atheist sees it. George, I used to wonder too. Bramble, you're right. We were never taught Christ in TWI.

Its easy to walk away from a church, denomination, religion - look at how most of us left TWI. There's no problem walking away from something man made - especially fundamental evangelicism. I guess my questions here would be to Christians who became atheists: Was it easy to walk away from Christ? I'm not talking about church here, I'm talking about your personal relationship with him. Was it easy to tell Christ to get out of your heart? If you can so easily tell him to leave your heart, was he really ever there in the first place? If you truly did love the Lord and had a relationship with him, how do you dismiss it so lightly? How do you turn your back on him, and walk away so easily? I'm not being contentious, I really want to know. From what I know of him in my life (I speak for no one else), I can not imagine doing this. (And it has nothing to do with fear, guilt, etc. - it has to do with his love for my and mine for him). I cannot imagine walking away. How do you do it? If it was easy for you, then have you concluded you never had a relationship with him, and why pretend anymore? I guess my point is, many Christians want to, and have nothing to do with "religion" - you will not find us in church. Its more of a personal thing - that's what I'm trying understand - forget religion here. Personally, in your heart - how do you tell him to go? Or how do you tell him he is a fool, and was for dying for you? How do you tell him, whom you once, supposedly loved, he is a lie?

LOL Ham!!! I can't wait for the response. That's a riot.

Penworks, I really appreciate your sharing, its great to hear the perpectives of the very early TWI folk and corps people. I remember you guys - your corps. I was in high school and VP would send your corps to Columbus. Many of you stayed at my house. Everyone loved my little sister. I think I was too weird - no one knew what to make of me :) Except, I remember it was a Friday or Sat. night around 1 or 2 a.m. and I was watching roller derby ( don't all teenagers stay up late and sleep in 'till noon? Or was I the exception). Anyway, who comes out but TB, you know him :). He spent a good half hour convincing me I should be in bed and not waste my time with that. He then went back to bed and I finished my show. Anyway, I saw early on VP's nasty side. I was pretty much able to avoid him in the corps, except, when I was called to his motorcoach and he told me several times, very graphically, the type of sex acts he'd like to perform. Talk about a disconnnect. I left. He pretty much left me alone after that. I also think the corps got way too big for the "sit at the feet of the master" stuff. When we did sit at his feet, or LCM's up there in that huge room at Emporia, I forget what its called, at the "afterglows" - they would turn the lights down low and we'd all get comfy and fall asleep as they droned on and on and on. Did you feel you were learning incredible spiritual stuff since you were in daily contact with him in your corps?

I really enjoyed the post too Cman!

Don't Worry Be Happy, Oldies is not joking, this is truly what he believes. He's been spouting this crap for a few years now, insinuating the victims are lying, and idolizes VP and his teachings. He's sad. Larry Moore is new, was banned because he deliberately tried to derail any thread he was on, and is now back and is a fanboy of Oldies. Peas in a pod. I can almost guarantee you Oldies does not have a girlfriend and watches a lot of porno, as per VP's example. Where else would he get all this crap and his views on women? He lives in a fantasy world and quite frankly, has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to women. By the way, where in the Bible does it say for women to "loosen up"? And where does it say it was VP's job to do so? That's just absurd. More of VP's made up one liners and Oldies bought it. The guy is truly a brainwashed headcase. He drank too much Kool Aid. I don't play with him anymore. Sadly, he really is for real.

I agree! There were many wonderful, awesome people in TWI - why do you think some of us stayed so long? I think many of the "negative" threads you see are basically calling out VP and LCM - many people did have horrible experiences at their hands. But many of us avoided or didn't spend time with them and had wonderful friends who loved God and each other. I pretty much liked everything about TWI except VP. So, I worked around that :)

The study of the "end times" is a field all in itself. If one wants to learn the biblical "doctrine" - whether or not they agree with it, this site is the best I've found on the net so far. About a year ago, I really wanted to start understanding it. This site has some very good charts and comparisons on the front page (scroll down), that helps see things a bit easier. Then, go to their articles page. They have some excellent writings on Daniel and how his prophecies fit today. I occassionally go to their forums too, a lot of questions are discussed. I have learned alot from this site (plus others). I peruse this site (once every couple of months) to see if there are new articles, but it helped put the "timeline" together for me. Whether you agree or disagree with escatology, as end times studies are called, it is interesting to know if one is interested. http://www.tribulationforces.com/tfcdr/whypretrib.shtml

Hi Shifra. Yes, VP told me personally not to worry about the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation is the fullfillment of the prophecies in Isaiah, Daniel and Ezekiel - instead of Daniel's prophecies being closed for his time, they are now opened and understood. I have read many books on Revelation, but "Revelation" by Donald Barnhouse is the best I've ever read (available on Amazon). He will show exactly from Daniel how the prophecies he was given are fullfilled in the "last days." Interesting VP didn't want us to read Revelation or ever deal with Daniel. Revelation says right there, its "written to the church" and is written for our comfort and to know what is to come. I think its important for us to understand - and it is understandable now.

Sweet Roy - LOL!!!!!

Oldies, calling someone's testimony "False accusations" is definitely calling someone a liar. Just, in a nice way. Exagerations and innuendo, just add to it. Its all the same. Calling them liars in a polite manner.

Well, WTH just accused that person of being possessed - in a nice way, of course. Why is it, the religious people and are the first to call someone they disagree or disapprove of, possessed. I have to think now, since WTH has thrown out the "possession" card, they must be still with TWI. An innie valiently defending "the faith" who would probably gladly execute all these possesso women telling all these demon inspired stories about the great, infallible Pope Vic.

Well, it seems to me, that while ole VP was busy amassing his wordly, kingdom of wealth on earth and claiming all the women in his earthly kingdom, he neglected the heavenly kingdom. He blew it big time. He was a con artist and a wolf sent to draw away the flock. I have a feeling, his pathetic whining "I wish I were the man I know to be" was because God showed him what he had done. He blew it, no do overs, his life was over.

Nope, now you're making excuses. Its the Word literally, and fits like a hand in a glove, or it isn't. This does not fit.

You know, if I were an innie and saw that, I think that would be the last straw, my heart would have sank. Absolutely no imagination, the same old same old rehashed again for the umpteenth time. Are you so totally uninspired? Such a lack of imagination? Such a lack of heart for any people that are left? Its actually insulting. I would take one look at that and realize we now have a dead ministry.

Absolutely not true. Christ sent the comforter - the Holy Spirit, who is still in the world today and in every one of us who is born again. In Israel's time, the comforter did not do the same functions it does now. We are nothing like Israel was. To say that, is, by your logic, to negate the dispensations. You are saying the OT and NT are the same - no difference.

So are you saying that precious few people in TWI had Spirit, thus the Way Tree was necessary? Oh, this lady said, it was the "people's" fault, we wanted a King?? Typical VP - blame his people. What bs.

Dan, LOL! Yes, truly, context is everything! :)

Wordwolf, no, that is not my quotation. But to corroborate, the reason VPW looked up Jim D**p specifically is because he had read in some Christian publication about leadership's work in winning kids and how some were also involved in "free sex" - I think Jim's name was mentioned in the free sex context. So,VP headed on out there.