Sunesis

Well, I guess all I can think of is, its just sad. With all the harm and off the wall prophecies resulting in great hurt, destruction of a marriage, and ultimately lawsuits and other things, how can they still feel this whole personal prophecy thing is right, and godly? Look at the results, or "fruit." I don't think God will be able to work with them or teach them until they get this wrong teaching/darkness out of their ministry. After all this, you would think someone would have learned something. Thanks for sharing DWBH.

Agreed Irisheyes. There were two sections to sheol, or the grave, in the OT - the "pit" where people await judgment and paradise - for the righteous where those who believed and looked forward to the Messiah/Christ went before he was here, which was separated by a wide gulf. Christ, after his death, triumphantly went down and preached to the spirits that were in prison (I believe these were the ones who left their habitiation and caused the havoc in Gen. 6:4 leading to the flood) triumphing over them, and emptied out paradise, taking those firstfruits with him to be with him. He locked the gates of hell to the believer and no believer will ever go there. That's why it is said, the gates of hell will not prevail against his church - or called out ones. I think when I say in the future it will be a place where God is not, we know hades (hell) is thrown into the lake of fire at the end. I believe fire is similar but not literal - its something that can't be described and God uses that. I was curious, well, where does this lake of fire go? It was interesting to see it is never destroyed - hades, sheol, hell is, what ever you want to call it is - thrown in this lake, but not the lake itself. And, I believe it will be outside God's realm. It is a place prepared for those angels who rebelled and those who do not want to be with him. I think this is the jist of it I've kind of understood about it over time.

I said, will JOHN man up. Jean said, that I said: DANNY, as YOU say. I did not say Danny. I said John. Jean said I said Danny. Reading is fundamental Jean. I had John on ignore and will not talk to him, I guess I need to do the same with you. Take you BS and put it on someone else.

I forgot about that verse CMan - I concede. Since none of us have ascended to heaven (yet :)), nor hell, I always took that to mean, if I'm in a dangerous or hellish situation - yea though I walk through the valley of death - then he is there, wherever I go, in good or in bad. He is always with me whereever, or in whatever situation I might be.

Yes, Belle, I think we got our answer. Too bad Jean had to lie and change my quote.

Interesting Roy, but kind of generic. I think you and I and most others on this forum could do just as well :)

It was John who proudly said a woman needs a clocking. Danny was merely repeating what he said. Sometimes words come back to haunt us. No matter though, who was right or wrong, the response was way overboard. I think, from Jeans post, its pretty obvious that John will come back with righteous indignation, reflect any blame away from him, it wasn't his fault and Danny shouldn't have started it, he started it first, nyah, nyah... It will be interesting to see, will John man-up and acknowledge what he said was wrong, and take some personal responsibility - or not. Or will it be someone else's fault?

What I think is so cool, is that as we love God, He continues to teach us and we can look back, see what we believed, and then how the Holy Spirit gently guides us into a more perfect truth, or whole truth. The progression of learning over time is very interesting to look back on. It is a gentle journey where we looked at something, believed it then, but as we are willing to learn, He gently shows us why something is not right and where to look next. We are all on our own journey. It will be interesting to see what we have learned about things a few years from now.

Dear sweet Roy, thank you so much for sharing your story. I have always thought you have a wonderful heart, and we have had some great discussions where we disagreed, but it was still fun. You are a joy and blessing here. Please, continue to speak up my sweet brother :)

Hello Patrick and Sarah. How are you? I too used to be a Universalist, like you. I finally had to discard it after I read what the Bible and Christ say about "hell" - I hate that word. But, if I was going to be honest, I finally had to discard universalism. For my point no. 2, see Eccl. 3:11. So, what does my point of view, that there is a heaven and hell, do for people now? Well, if one believes in a "hell" - where the Bible says its located, what Christ says about it, what the Bible says about it, then, hopefully, a person will make a decision now, in this life for or against Christ. It cannot be put off. If you believe in Universalism, why, you don't need to make a decision. Why worry, if all will be pardoned in the next? What universalism fails to take into account, is that: to enter God's coming kingdom, you must be a new CREATION. You must be sinless. You must be Holy. Only Christ can clothe us with the righteousness and holiness needed to enter into His Kingdom - and that, only if we will it - desire Him and this Life He promised. A universalist believes that somehow later, they will spend some time in Hell, then be released and enter God's Kingdom. Not true. Those where God is not are not "new creations." They are still "unregenerate." They do not have a "new nature." Even after being chained in Hell for 1,000 years during the new millenium to come, Satan, let out, still did not change his stripes. He again foments rebellion - that is his nature. That is mankind's fallen nature - rebellion. Only Christ can change it and make us a new creation with a new nature. Look at it this way: God cannot abide sin and unholiness in his presence. If I had a neighbor who robbed, cheated, stole, murdered, why would I let him into my house? Why would God let corruption into the holy of holies, heaven? He will not. There is nothing unjust about it. Nothing is going to change their nature. Its nice for people to think that God will, against their own wills, that he will change them some day - but that is not what the Word says. In the Universalist way, no one ever has to make a decision, since - hey, it will work out in the future. Thus, why even worry about God, his message, his Christ now in this life? No need to. I consider it an "apostate" Christianity. This is man's day, I sometimes think we think, how dare God judge? We forget, and as I Peter says, there are scoffers thinking nothing's ever going to change. Things will continue just as they are. Lately I've been reading up on Apostasy - fascinating. Also, when changing my mind I looked up "hell", pit, abyss, etc. There's lots in there - much more than I ever realized. Hmm... I wonder why we were never taught this stuff.

Irisheyes, the "unfair" wasn't about you. I know you didn't say that. Its a generic thing many people say about God, how "unfair" he is. You know, how dare he give people a heads up of what's coming, they don't like it, so its, unfair. How can God do something like that? How can he "torture" people (if they read the Word, they'd know he doesn't torture - in fact, he's not even there - its a place where he is not), etc. I was using it in a generic sense, something that is very commonly said.

Well this sounds like fun. Can I invite myself too? I'll bring something. I have a friend in Lancaster, he's an artist, Dennis Kline. He used to paint the graphics on all of the metal gods guitars - pretty much every band from Motley Crue to Bon Jovi. I have him doing some guitar bodies for me. Lancaster is Southeast of Columbogus.

Hello Irisheyes :). I don't look at it as scary. I think of it more like, God has done two things: 1. He gave us freedom of will, with the ability to choose. 2. He does not kill that eternal soul every man has. That's why, as he says, every man has eternity in his soul. He will not kill that which he created. But he will honor a person's will. Love/hate - two sides of the same coin. Those that love him and his Son will be with him. Those who hate him and want nothing to do with them, their will and wish will also be honored. He will not ever "possess" (for lack of a better word) someone and override their free will and demand they choose him. I ask those who dislike him - yet who for some reason, think its unfair that they will not be transformed into a new creation and spend eternity with him after a lifetime of rejecting him - if you dislike/hate him now, why on earth do you think you would want to spend an eternity with him? You'd hate it and Him for eternity. Its not "unfair" at all. Its God honoring your freewill choice, whatever you may decide.

Yes, people in TWI, if they didn't like someone, or they disagreed with someone, would label the person possessed and they'd get thrown out. Personally, I think if anyone here or in TWI did see a "real" devil spirit they'd have a heart attack. TWI talked an arrogant and tough game against devil spirits but would probably flee if they ever did see one. I liked Del Duncan's attitude - if we did meet one, it should be terrified of us. We have God's Spirit in us and authority over it. It should be cowering in front of us. But, TWI taught us the opposite, to be afraid and look for them under every rock. I certainly do not, and will not, waste time looking for them under every rock or in everyone I meet. I do not believe a true child of God can get possessed either. TWI had very strange doctrines and too much emphasis on devil spirits.

I read a couple of books on NDE's awhile ago. One that stands out in my mind the most is: Unknown Land, Hell's Dominion, available on Amazon. I think, if we are in the "last days," God, not wanting to lose anyone is giving people visions, so to speak, of literally what is ahead for those who choose not to spend eternity with him. Hell is not a land of God torturing people (we can thank Dante and medieval writers for those gruesome scenes), but more of, a place where God is not. Anyway, it was an incredible book. There's another one, I'll see what it is at home tonight. Also, I found a website, which I'll link tonight, its on my home computer, which is a compilation of "death bed" stories that a preacher in the late 1890s kept. He was curious if there was a difference in "believer's" deaths and unbelievers. There are about 200 accounts people wrote and sent him. It is truly fascinating. I must believe that there really is something, or truth, to the idea of a coming heaven and hell as laid out in the Bible. I think you guys would enjoy this read. I also, when my father was dying this fall, was talking to the Hospice "faith" counselor. I asked her, do you, or have you seen a difference in people who are "believers" and are dying, and those who aren't. She gave me an emphatic yes, there is a definite difference. It was an interesting conversation after that. She emphasized that her function is not to "convert" anyone, but to help people become at peace with their coming death, no matter what they believe. But, still, it was a fascinating conversation. When I seriously read about Christ in the Gospels - and his words. It becomes obvious that He has one main theme - and its a huge one. His theme was: The Kingdom of God is coming. This Kingdom is not of this earth. All are welcome to enter. He is the door. Believe he is sent from God, he will joyfully give you entrance. If you reject him, you will get your wish - to be without God. He then gives many illustrations of the coming Kingdom of God. His whole message is about the coming Kingdom and come, enter. I take him seriously. I believe today, God is ramping up the visions of what is to come for all of us after we die in an effort to get mankind to choose "life." God has set eternity in every man's heart (Eccl. 3:11). I believe we are on earth to make a choice of who we want to spend eternity with, now and in the future. Everything else is great and wonderful, but we have a serious choice to make. Death - I believe our soul will spend eternity in the presence of God, holy and as Christ is with our new spiritual bodies, or - not in His presence - still aware, with bodies prepared for eternity in their plane of existence, but not in His presence. Either way, our will, will be done.

Bumpy - LOL!!! That's a riot!

Yes, definitely tell hubby - no Zena! I agree, its a great feeling just kind of going with the flow (or Spirit) and ending up where it leads. I left TWI and explored, looked at this and that, thought this was right, then changed my mind - it took time, but I really believe as we are not afraid to explore all possibilities and hold to that which is good, as you look back, you can see how God has led you and taught you. God is vastly varied and wants us to know his varied and manifold wisdom (Eph.). I think it would be weird, robotic and awful if we all thought the same way and believed the exact same thing. I guess now, I fall into the rapture, pre-trib, futurist gang :) But that was after I was a universalist, preterist, mid-trib, then post-trib. I guess my point is, it takes time to study things, then you learn about another topic - and well, how do these fit together? All of them are fascinating, but I think the Spirit will lead you into truth in his own way with each person individually. Xena would still be kind of a cool name, don't you think? :)

Wonderful posts anotherspot, I'm really enjoying them!

Bliss - anyone with Xena - Warrior Queen! on the page is a friend of mine :) I thought it was a very good article. I can understand his feelings re semantics, and I think he feels Preterism - the more moderate version which does not believe all has happened, has been hijacked and people think of hyperpreterism when they think of Preterism. I think many Christians have many differing views on how the world/and we, arrive at the events in the Book of Revelation. Also, for example, the 7 churches in Revelation - some think it shows the many different types and varieties of churches now - one of them described may fit your church, or, others think its a historical/chronological history of the church through the ages and we're in the last one, the Laodicean one, now, others think... What ever one believes, I think one must keep in mind, the bible is a book of prophecy, who's center is Christ. I think if one realizes these 3 simple things, then whatever else they choose to believe is great. The 3 things are: 1. The OT prophecizes the redeemer to come - Christ. Christ is shown as the suffering, perfect sacrificial lamb (which came to pass and was fulfilled when he was condemned to death (sacrificed) by the High Priest Pilate), and shown as the one coming back in Glory. There were two aspects to him. The priests were looking for the Ruler/Glorious one and overlooked the meek sacrificial lamb who's blood had to be shed for all. 2. In the NT - He came to the earth from above, he was "God with us," he was sacrified, risen and is now preparing a place for us in heaven. He will return in the air for us (does not come to earth). 3. Revelation - The glorified Christ rises and judgment of the Gentiles and Jews commences. He returns with his own to earth and rules and restores order. Without the Book of Revelation, there is no ending to the story that began in Genesis. Without an end to the story, there is no hope for mankind. Its interesting, because even if we don't understand all of the Book of Revelation, Christ does say, blessed are those who read it. There's a special blessing to those who read it. He doesn't say you have to understand it, just read it. At the end, he tells us, it is written for the church. In it, the Glorious Messiah/Christ is revealed in all his full glory. It is our Hope (Christ) revealed. Thus, I do not believe this all happened in AD 70 or a bit beyond - we do not have our new bodies and are not with our Lord, with him in our new bodies, as a new creation, unlike any ever seen before, like as a bride never to be separated from him.

I must respectfully disagree about Preterism, although I once thought it was the correct view. I'll list why I disagree with it. 1. The doctrine of Preterism is a Jesuit invention, whose goal was protecting the Catholic church and the Pope from the visions in Revelation (i.e., the "beast" is Rome, the woman who rides the beast, the harlot is the Catholic church, etc.). 2. Preterists believe that ALL prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. They generally believe that all of the prophecies relating to the end-times were fulfilled spiritually circa AD 70. Result, they accept the OT prophecies as literal and true, yet "spiritualize" Revelation. Even though Revelation is the literal fulfillment of the OT prophecies, to have the doctrine of Preterism stand, everything in Revelation is now a spiritual allegory, nothing to be taken literally, no prophecies fulfilled. For example, Preterism spiritualizes all passages of scripture in the New Testament that relate to the nation of Israel and claim that these refer to the church, the "New Israel". They teach that the "old earth", which scripture says will pass away, is the Old Covenant. The new heaven and earth, they say, is the New Covenant and the "elements" which scripture says will burn with fervent heat when this happens, are the "elements of the law." (Does this mean the 10 Commandments are now defunct?) Preterism can produce some bizarre explanations for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity - instead of the peace under Christ's rule, and superabundance of the earth, all tears wiped away, no more pain and sorrow, etc., that is found in Revelation. Does the description of earth in Rev 21-22 even come close to the state of the world today? 4. Revelation was most likely NOT written during the persecutions of Nero, but near the end of the century, 30 years after Nero. There are many reasons for this, but I'll hit on a couple of the most common, although there are many more. First, the church was already in error. When we read about the 7 churches in Rev. we see that Ephesus had "lost its first love." Smyrna had those who belonged to "the synagogue of Satan." Pergamos had not only Nicolaitanes, but those who held "the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling-block before the children of Israel," etc. All of the Churches were already in a state of decline from what they were when Paul wrote his Epistles to some of them - this takes time. Second, according to the early "church fathers," with few exceptions, they are unanimous in ascribing the exile of John, and the writing of the Apocalypse, to the time of Domitian. Irenaeus, Victorinus, Hippolytus, Eusebius, Jerome, etc. They all wrote that John was the prophet who was banished under Domitian (30 years after Nero) and had the great Revelation. 4. For Revelation to have occurred in AD 70 - and all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, then you must then ask: When was the Gospel preached to all the nations (notwithstanding LCM's entering into the promised land)? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? When were the two witnesses killed in front of the entire earth, their deaths rejoiced over by the world, then raised after 3 days? What about the King of the East’s (China?) 200 million man army? When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky? When did the world's water turn to blood? ("as they have spilled the blood of the prophets, let them drink blood") When did the Euphrates dry up? Why did we have a rebirth of Israel - again? If Jerusalem was forever removed in 70 A.D., why is it back? Where is the new heaven new earth? Where is the great white throne? When did all mankind see Christ returning with his saints and wail and try and hide themselves? Where is the new Jerusalem come down to earth? When did Christ return in total Glory for all to see? Where is Christ who rules the earth from Jeruselem? Where is the no more sorrow and tears? It goes on and on. Thus, while Preterism does a good job of absolving the Catholic church from any possiblity of being the "Babylon Mystery Religion" to come, and is an interesting theory, I do not believe it true. Just my 2 Cents. I know many will disagree.

Well, Christ, as the Son of God, was way above the religious leaders of his day. Darn right they called him Rabbi. So, you think Jesus was no different than a Reverend and/or Doctor today? Gee, he was just another "teacher." Is he really your Saviour, have you made him Lord in your life? Or is he just another in a myriad of nice teachers or prophets with nice words - nice guy, no one special. Please, because you have given yourself the title "Reverend" - don't compare yourself to Christ. Your analogy was false.

When I look at the materialism of the church of today in America, I sometimes think we are in the 6th church of the book of revelations - the televangelists are leaders of the Laodicean church - the one right before the gathering, the one of which Christ says he will spit out of his mouth. Rev. 3:17: You say, 'I am rich and well off; I have all I need.' But you do not know how miserable and pitiful you are! You are poor, naked, and blind. As Peter once said, Silver and Gold have I none, but rise and walk. Today, with the televangelists its perversely backwards. Silver and gold have they, but no one is healed, there is no one rising and walking. Defend these new megachurches and its leaders, say its a great thing all you want. But they will be spit out - they look good, they look great, millions follow these people. Its the great end times apostasy. The false, "feel good" health and wealth, name it and claim it church. One that has nothing to do with Christ. The one that will be spit out.

Oldies, I don't care who Jesus ate with, that's not the point. I don't read about Jesus amassing a material kingdom here on earth. He didn't go around in his motorcoach, latest harley, buying up property, making a compound with lots of buildings, or building a castle, or whatever wealthy people did back then - amass sheep? Jesus Christ preached a spiritual kingdom coming - that was his message - that all are welcome - follow Him. He himself said it is very hard for a rich man to enter the coming kingdom. I agree - what we see here is Americanized Christianity. There is no difference between the amassing of wealth of these televangelists and the vatican amassing their wealth. None. It is a marriage with the world, it is creating an earthy, material kingdom, it is a making merchandise of God's people. It is enriching themselves and gorging themselves on the backs of their flock. It is disgusting.

I heard her somewhere a few times years ago - when her ministry was still small and she was struggling. I think one of the only reasons she became so popular is because the lady is a riot. At least back then she was. She could easily be a top comedian - her stories were hilarious. Thus, she was deemed "human" and frail like everyone else and they could relate, especially women. I also remember thinking, this lady will go to the top. It will be interesting to see what she morphs into when the $$$ comes rolling in. Will she become a ruthless VP close behind the scenes - nasty, things to hide? I know nothing about her now, but this debate is interesting. I remember questioning DM and other people - asking, why does VP need the bus, airplane, fancy clothes, etc. She said because they need it to move the Word, to look the "best" as God's representative. Oh, hmmm..... I guess we were to be happy with our clothes from give away and beat up cars. I never bought it. And, true to form, the "wealth" was shared with other top leadership in TWI who were public. Sounds like history repeating itself here with Joyce. As far as I'm concerned, once the $$ rolls in the you see the fancy compounds, house, buses, entourage, etc. - you're on your way to corruption.

Ex - you're wonderful!! CG could do the same thing. They were peas in a pod. CG was VP's true soulmate.