Sunesis

I agree the change to structure happened in '71. I was a "groovy Christian of Rye" and took PFAL in 1970. I loved going to Rye followships and over to the Heefners occassionally. All the fellowships at that time were in Rye at the Bishops. I also remember going to one at the Heanys. People would pickup up us little high school kids and give us rides to fellowship. I remember, in '71 - in winter, or early spring? I'm not sure now, that I was told, along with others, that I couldn't fellowship in Rye anymore, I had to go to a certain person's twig in Larchmont. I wasn't fond of him, and the twig just wasn't the same as the more spontaneous fellowship with lots of my high school peers. I drifted away. Later, when we moved to Ohio, the WOWs found me and I got back in - I think because I was just happy to see a familiar face after being wrenched from my lifetime home going into my senior year of high school and now stuck in Ohio - one of the WOWs was from Rye. I think the Waytree dampened a lot of enthusiasm. Something moving along via God, was now structured.

Shortfuse, to answer your question re: the orgies. I had two, what I would consider, profound, conversations with Jim Doop shortly before he died. I had called him, because as one of the early leaders of the Jesus Movement, I was interested in it and the people (like Lonnie Frisbee, who he knew), from a historical perspective. I figured, well, Paul and the apostles are gone, great men of God through the ages are gone, I would like to talk to this man because I believe God worked mightily in him, Heefner, Frisbee, and other young men whom God called to call a new generation to Him. These men were founders and leaders of a revival, which I haven't seen since in my lifetime. Anyway, Jim told me he had gone to one orgy, and he and his wife didn't like it and did not continue with them. But VP, when he visited SF and the Haight, kept pestering Jim for details. Jim also said, on their down time, he'd go with VP to the porno theatres. Jim said VP treated him like a son, it was the height of the hippie, free love thing, so at that time, even though he thought it a bit weird, he didn't think it was a big deal. He was also terribly hurt, "betrayed" was the word he used, when VP had the infamous meeting and wrenched control of the Way West from California and all the money now had to go to HQ because VP had promised he would never do that, it was all about the Word.

Mike, I doubt you "rattle anyone's cage" - although you'd like to flatter yourself and think so. Your absolute idolitry of PFAL and VPW and your never ending informercial for them, and constant derails of threads, and castigating of anyone who has moved beyond PFAL and VPW are bbbbbboooooooorrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggg. You brought on the posting consequences yourself. Quit whining about it. And yes, Polar Bear is talking about something totally different. You're doing an apple to oranges comparison. We all understand what he is saying, maybe you better go back and read his post again.

What I find fascinating, is how, in an eerie way, when Mengele would unload the trains in the camp and send some to the right and some to the left, it is a prophetic type, a devilish enactment, if you will, of the scene in Revelation at the end of Armeggedon when Christ comes back. I believe Auschwitz, and the hundreds of other, large and small camps were the devil's playground and a forerunner of what is to come in the tribulation. The camps will look like kindergarten, compared to when the real thing gets here. You may also want to check into the "Wanessee Convention" held at a lovely mansion on the lake where Himmler and his top men laid out and planned the systematic extinction of the jews. Of course Hitler wasn't stupid enough to sign off with a pen. But verbally, he gave the go ahead. Just like for years, it couldn't be proven Lenin had signed off on the Czar and his family's execution, until after the cold war and the Soviet archives were opened to the west. What do you know, there was the order and Lenin's signature. Take note of this WTH: When Christ divides the nations at that time, the end of the tribulation, one to the left and one to the right, those that are allowed to enter into the new millenium - the new Thousand Year Reich of Christ so to speak, they are judged on one thing, and one thing only: How did they treat the Jews and the Jewish nation. Those that helped them through the tribulation - their line leads to life. Those that hated them, their line - to eternal death. You may want to reevaluate spiritually where this hatred of the Jews and Israel you harbor is leading you.

Here's another lovely lady, guess what they found in her quarters - oops! http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcus...iwomen/irma.htm

This is fun, debating with GS's very own nazi. Seig Heil WTH. You may enjoy this link. Note the old school tattoo and the human skin in old Ilse's Koch (a/k/a the Bitch of Buchenwald) skin collection. http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcus...iwomen/ilse.htm

Cynic, I've never heard of this Wright person. This one article I thought made some good points. I'd really like to hear your take and this new NPP perspective, I've never heard of it. What are they saying?

Well thank you for the advice that we all need to move on, get over it and get resolution in our hearts. But don't stop there, anything else you'd like to advise us all on?

I understand what you're saying. They were great times, we were young, we loved God, he loved us. But, we can't go back. It was youth, you can't go home again. I've met some of my old "best buddies." Its very interesting, because as an adult you can tell, you now have nothing in common with them whatsoever except that you used to be in TWI together once. If you were to meet them today, you may find, after the initial enthusiasm and rehashing your history, stories, and the good old days history you have together, that you really don't want to hang out with them. There are great churches out there and great fellowships. I found that not having TWI to depend on, I really had to deepen my relationship with Christ. I hope you find what you are looking for on your journey.

I'd like to know, what is the trauma the reformation did to Christianity.

I thought it was an excellent article. Definitely food for thought in these neo-paganistic times. I particularly liked the idea of parody. Paganism, a weak parody of Christ and God. You can see parody here on earth in many different forms. I thought of Auschwitz, the separating of people, one group to the left, one to the right. You see this separating in Revelation at Christ's coming. Temples built all over the world - pyramids, mayan, egyptian, etc., a parody of God's true heavenly temple? It seems our choice in these times is to withdraw or to assimilate. But Paul, shows the Christian way. Great article.

Dan, he talked about how many "mines he had tripped" and explosions. You are talking about sandbags and gas masks. I don't get your point at all. I think you're reading something into my post that's not there at all. I simply said it is good we are discussing and NOT debating and that's a good thing. Carry on, get behind your sandbag and don your gasmask if you think someone's going to let you have it.

Why do you think there's going to be "explosions"? I think all of us got some great stuff out of TWI when we were in. You told us how it was for you - and that's great. We have been talking about Attitude - nasty attitudes at that. Outthere is discussing, and so is Another Dan, and everyone else here. Its nice, its great - which is the way it should be. :) Its much better than meanspirited debate. We were discussing attitude - not dissing people because they have differences of opinion. I see no reason why there should be any type of "explosions."

I think when you look at the whole picture, God has been telling us since Adam and Eve fell, there's a redeemer coming and a heavenly kingdom coming. What did Christ preach - his main teachings? The Kingdom of God and its coming, parable after parable. What did Paul preach? That we will someday be a new creation, fit to inhabit the coming kingdom. What does Revelation teach? Here comes the Kingdom (after some judgment, of course). So, I really do believe all men are "convicted" by the Holy Spirit, to choose to enter or not to. There is a new heaven and earth coming, the invitation has been extended to mankind (see also Christ's parable of the wedding feast). Accept, or reject. Its that simple.

RG, I love newcomers - we all were new here once. I have another Christian website I go on - vastly different from here. I scoped it out, and when I first went on was very polite, and continue to be - I didn't go in like a bull in a china shop insulting people, etc. After you've been here awhile, you relax, get to know posters, their opinions, political leanings, biblical leanings, etc. I love having discussions - even if I do not agree. After a while you get to know others you don't agree with, probably never will, and just leave them alone. It just takes awhile to get the lay of the land. I will say though, I have never, in all my years of posting here and at waydale, seen someone trash and derail threads, insult posters, try and "trap" them, like LM did. It got frustrating, because there could be a great conversation going on, he comes in, derails it and destroys it, and new people may wonder why we're "ganging up" on someone. If someone consistently spoils a thread, its time to let them go. I've seen other boards, sometimes you do have to tell people - hit the road, p*ss in someone else's wheaties.

That's an awesome way of looking at it WW. The sped up part is interesting too. C.S. Lewis once wrote on miracles. What is a miracle but nature sped up? Water into wine, healing, etc., all things which do happen naturally, but slowly, yet the instantaneous miracles - nature sped up. I like the centrifuge concept. Yes, I agree, the whole purpose of God's plan is to get the creation back to the perfection it had. With one will - God's - you had perfect harmony and perfection. With two wills - Satan v. God - you have opposites, chaos and destruction of the universe and earth ensues. With man, now you have billions of free will - chaos. Our hope is Christ, someday there will be one harmonious will again, all will be in harmony. All will want to worship God because they will have seen - both angelic creation and man, what happens when God's will is not followed. He has to let it play out.

I had always wondered, over the years, exactly what was the purpose of these few small books that are sandwiched between Paul's writings and the majestic book of Revelation. I and II Peter, James, and especially Jude. A year or so ago I was reading them and it hit me like a ton of bricks, that those little books back there were written specifically for Christians who are living in the "last days," or the end days (the perilous times) that come before the gathering and the tribulation begins. Revelation, though specifically written "for the church," deals with Christ's and God's judgment on an unbelieving world - what is to come after the gathering. But the admonitions in Jude and Peter, et al., are there for us - how to deal and live in these last perilous days - now, how to not get seduced from proper doctrine. 50 years ago, or 100 years ago, it was not needful - the time was not what it is today. Now, these little books open and unfold and we see them in a way we never would have thought of even 20 or 30 years ago. Satan's ministers in the last days will be in the church. He doesn't care about other religions - they aren't going to lead anyone to Christ. Thus, target those who have the potential to be Christians - i.e., the places where Christ is taught. Keep as many out of the coming Kingdom as possible. Take as many down with him as he can. Great words to take heed to WW.

Glad to hear that invisible Dan. My father has gone to the hospital many times, several for severe kidney infection. I will tell you, that when you have severe urinary/kidney infection, when they give you the antibiotic for it, many times older people go into temporary dementia. Dad did that too - twice, out of his mind, two days later, sitting there like nothing had ever happened and not remembering a thing. I would have found out what they were giving your mother.

I agree Wordwolf, sometimes we look at humanity and think, what is it really God sees in us? Well, right now, we are ruined, fallen - man cannot possibly ever hope to be as Holy as God and enter into his pure Holy kingdom by himself. Thus, the sacrifice of Christ to take the wrath and anger and unholiness upon himself for us on the cross. But, there must be something worth salvaging that I think we have absolutely no inkling of. I think we will be blown away in our new creation bodies. We will rejoice for eternity that we believed and were counted worthy to be with Christ. I find it interesting that God made a helper and companion for Adam - Eve. And now, God is making a companion for his son - us. Just as Adam and ever were one - married, so we shall be Christ's "bride." I love that we are of the same "family" as Christ is, even while still in the flesh. As for time, I think time was created "in the beginning." I think God inhabits eternity and is outside of time. Think of time as a circle. Then, a huge, larger circle surrounding it, that is God inhabiting eternity, outside of time.

I wouldn't be angry with her. Its a very sensitive thing for Jewish people and those who lost whole families. You told her you were with an offshoot of TWI, or someone who had been affiliated. She doesn't know the ins and out, or about TWI, affiliates, etc. All she knows it TWI negated the seriousness of the holocaust. She knows you, heard "TWI" and associated the you, TWI, and anti-semitism. I would cut her some slack. Email her, gently explain your position, tell her you did not know, and tell her you apologize deeply if she was offended and how you value her friendship.

Dan, read Larry's post again. He said "Just because God has limitations...." Those are his words, not mine. If Larry's God has limitations - and that's what Larry believes (this is a current Geer teaching - I know of no other offshoots personally teaching this, thus, I do not believe Larry was being truthful to you when he stated he has no affiliations with anyone to you) - who am I to question what he believes? Good for him for believing that. He says his God has "limitations." Thus, his God is smaller than mine. My God does not have limitations. Who am I, as his creation, to decide what "limitations" my creator has? Who are any of us to impose "limitations" on God - it is total pride and arrogance of the creation to do so. Larry's reply to my post, was - as is his constant habit - another questioning, you are wrong, blah, blah post designed to get someone to argue with him. No more, he can find other people to sucker into going round and round with him. Dan, you say maybe I'm not listening? What are you talking about? If to Larry, well you are correct. If to God - don't even go there. You know nothing about my relationship with him and Christ. After seeing how Larry has recently joined GS and destroyed pretty much every thread he's ever been on with obtuse questions, strawmans, yelling at those he disagrees with, with a ridiculous avatar - projecting he's some "wise one," why, at this point would I want to listen to him? I could care less about what he thinks. Why should I respect him? Maybe I'm not listening to him - that's correct - and I will continue to skip over his posts. I will not waste my time with him anymore. Done. You can kowtow to him all you want - I thought you were smarter than that.

Yeah, ok Larry, whatever. You worship a small god with limitations. Good for you. Rainbow, yes, when we leave TWI we find God is still there and bigger than we thought. I like your expression, with new eyes - great way to look at it :)

Well, I guess VP must have been obsessed with fear for years - for he got what he believed for - Cancer LCM must have been obsessing for years over losing his job - and, lo and behold, look what happened - his long time fear caught up with him. These people operated the principle of believing in the negative and look what happened to them. You cannot refute this, this is VP's own words, backed up by people on here who believe him. Why would anyone want to idolize leadership that was full of fear for years?

Yes, excellent posts Wordwolf. From Satan's fall to man's fall, God needs to let all of creation in the universe - angel and man - see that he is just, his judgment is just and his plans are just. If, after Satan sinned, God had just opted to destroy him, would the other spiritual beings not start to doubt and maybe start to wonder, would not someone else step up and rebel. Instead of enduring an endless cycle of rebellion over and over, it makes more sense to let everything play out, so at the end, when all are gathered up and the kingdom is here, those inhabitants freely worship and walk with him and have no desire to leave his love. I also read somewhere, you can think of it like this: If someone told you that you could inhabit paradise, utopia, or whatever you want to call it, where everything would be love, perfection, the heaven men dream of; would you go through 5 minutes of hurt to get there for eternity? I.e., would you put up with some bad (man's free will to do evil) for a moment, to attain the utopia? Basically, everyone questioned, said, of course. What we consider a long time, is but a blip on God's timeline.

Let's see, God kind of knows, or maybe not fully, but then he doesn't know how someone will choose, but maybe he really does... There have been so many "new" teachings, not just on this, but other topics cropping up in the last few years, it amazes me how people run after them. Itching ears, new doctrines. Maybe we should make it easy, if God doesn't have foreknowledge, if he's not omnipotent, omniscient, let's just say the obvious, there is no God. In fact, I have foreknowledge of what I'll be doing tomorrow, I guess I'm smarter and have more foreknowledge than he does. Thus, I must be God.