Sunesis

I just started her book. I grew up in Rye, then moved to Larchmont. New Rochelle, Larchmont, Mamaroneck, Rye and other towns are all right next to each other on the Boston Post Road which goes up to Boston. They are NYC "bedroom" boroughs. In Larchmont, we were 20 minutes away from the City by train. I was also a "groovy" Christian of Rye. What astounds me so far is her description of what it was like in NY back then during the "hippie" revolution. Like her, I too had an alcoholic father, many of us kids did. I think being "organization men" of the '50s, doing their rote corporate jobs, unwinding in the drinking cars on the train on the way home from work in the City, took a toll on many men. We were little kids, so many of us raised ourselves, dad drunk when he was home, mom, distant - so many of us kids were on our own at a young age. We did cut school and hop the train into the city with our buddies to hang in Tompkins Square park, our older brothers and sisters did drive us to the city, we did basically what we wanted. Many kids rarely saw their parents 'cause the parents were always out, traveling - that one kid's house that was being renovated, parents in Spain - definitely happened alot. We travelled in little gangs. Oh yeah, the boys did get us girls too. Whether it was walking home from school as a 7 year old and being dragged in the woods and molested by the older neighborhood boys, later as a teenager being drug into the new houses being built and forced to do things, or avoiding the neighborhood bully - there was always one, or my best friend's older brother who would lock us into the bathroom together. When I told his mom, why, her little Brian would never do that... Kids are so much more protected nowadays in many ways. I guess my point is, we were so ripe for the pickin'. Here came the father figure with the offer of the godly family who really loved you. Hanging at someone's apartment in the City, but this time as part of a loving group, with the older kids - really, it just didn't get any cooler. What an amazing intro, she captures the times and feel so well. We were so young, on our own, searching. I ended up with TWI because of one of my high school buddies. But everytime I see a Hare Krishna, I think, there but for the grace of God go I. Hare Krishna would come to my high school, I loved them, they were wonderful people. My mom gave me permission to go to their temple in Brooklyn. I forgot to get directions - there was no internet back then to look them up with. Plus, I couldn't get any of my friends to go with me. I have a feeling, if I had made it to the temple, I would have become a devout Krishna member. I'm looking forward to reading more. This first part just really hit home. It was so incredibly, eerily similar to my situation.

From what I was told when in, VP had no problem with women with women - if they could handle it of course. We also know the male's number 1 fantasy is girl-on-girl action. That's why 3some was no big deal. Plus, its not really talked about in the Bible. So, VP didn't really much care. Although, he would publically say he didn't like it, but he sure kept some very obvious ones and their girls around with no problem. There were several, what I considered female couples, but, in TWI, as long as you were discreet and no one caught you, thus, they couldn't "prove" anything, you could pretty much do anything you wanted. Now, VP hated male homosexuals, NOT because of the act itself, but because it put one man of the couple in a "submissive" position. VP believed no man should ever be put in a "submissive" position like that - it feminized him. I have a feeling, for a male, as long as he was "dominant," VP didn't care what one did. With VP, it was about power. His abuse of women was about domination and power, and her humiliation. He had no love for the particular woman per se. When he got tired of her, he just passed her on.

I think it is Abi. The OT - Ezekiel, Zechariah, Isaiah, etc. all prophecy is about the coming King and Kingdom. Most of Christ's talking here on earth was regarding the coming Kingdom. The 12 Apostles preached the coming Kingdom. They did not preach "Paul's Gospel." Paul was an Apostle of Christ sent to the Gentiles - the one body, new creation as was revealed to Paul, not the 12. God sent his Word, the prophets, Christ, and the 12 apostles to Israel. The 12 were Israel's "last call" so to speak. The reason Peter, in Acts on the day of Pentecost quoted Joel's prophecy regarding the last days about the Kingdom to the Jews who were gathered in the Temple, was because he knew that if all Israel turned to Christ, their Messiah, the Kingdom would come, his rule would commence, the Kingdom would start. It was years later, at the meeting with the 12 Apostles and the Apostle Paul in Acts, that James perceived God was doing a new work with the Gentiles through Paul and said they did not have to follow the law. Once the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and Jeruselem sacked, the time had passed for Israel's repentence. Yet, we are told, in the future ALL of Israel will turn to Jesus, their Messiah and He shall return to earth and they shall be his Priests and Kings on earth. I believe, if all of Israel had accepted that Jesus was the Messiah, you would have gone right into the Kingdom in Revelation. He would be the Judge, unrighteousness would have been cleansed, the creation restored, the curse removed, and, as prophesied in the OT, 10 men would grab onto a Jewish man's skirt and say, let's go with him to the temple, we know God is with him (that's a wonderful verse, I can find it if you like - I'm going by memory now). When I look at the whole Bible, the whole OT is prophecy, the Messiah comes and his mission is to call Israel and tell them their King has come, then the end in Revelation, the Kingdom - it really does come. Almost the whole Bible is about this topic. As God said in the OT, I will tell you what I will do before I do it. He has told us. The one body, the church, those born again of both Jew and Gentile is a totally new creation with a different calling and different sphere of function and takes up a very small part of the Bible - it truly is grace. We were called in Gen 1:1 and will continue in Rev. 22:22 - i.e, in eternity.

Excie, he was a predator, pure and simple. He knew what to look for - in the person's body language, actions - like like gay people have what they call "gaydar." They can tell if someone's gay because they know what to look for. For VP, I also don't believe it was about sex. He was a misogynist - he did not like, and had no respect for women. The sex was about domination, power, and humiliation. That's what gratified him. The only exception I ever saw with him was if a woman was older and intelligent. If he felt she was very smart, he had a grudging respect. I remember before a meeting one niight on staff, he casually went on about El*** Whi**** - what a smart, smart woman she was, how there were very few like her in TWI, etc. That is the only time I ever heard him speak nicely of one. The younger women he just considered his toys to dominate. Then he passed them on. I think he also knew who not to mess with. My relative's husband who was a region leader, early corps, was never involved. He could not believe VP would do something like that. I'm not surprised Socks was never "included" in the inner circle. VP wasn't stupid in that way, I really believe he knew which married men would tolerate it and which wouldn't. He probably did a few subtle "tests" where the male never even knew he was being tested. It really was a total "lockbox," inner circle type thing. It wasn't until after he died people felt more freer to break the confidence they had sworn with an oath to him they'd never repeat.

I also find God's relationship with Moses fascinating too - Amazing. Abraham, Moses - those men's direct relationship with Jehovah is wonderful to read. I believe, just as God has his "host of heaven" in the angels in the heavens, that Israel was meant to be God's Holy "host" on earth. There's an interesting passage in the OT, I can't remember where now, where God lets other angels have the peoples of the rest of the world but calls Israel his. They were holy. He made his covenant with them. Moses calls his people to him, but also goes into great detail as to what will happen to Holy Israel if they break the covenant and worship other gods. They were meant to be the light of the world, God's host on earth, God's Holy people who would lead the rest of the world (gentiles) to God and be the priests of the Most High. Christ came and was the ultimate sacrifice, he was sent to Israel to call them back. He was rejected. I finally realized that the 12 apostles were sent to Israel for a reason. Not to the Gentiles. Paul was the Apostle of the Gentiles. The 12 apostles were the "last call" so to speak to Israel. Return to Christ, your Messiah has come and they spent years proving his prophecies from the OT. I believe if Israel had accepted him, the Messiah would have come in Glory, the judgment and cleansing the world of unrighteousness and spiritual evil would happen and the "Lord's Day" would have commenced. It did not happen. But, the good news is - it will though. The Messiah is coming for Israel in His glory, the Jewish people will realize who he was and mourn over him as a son for what happened to him. I love the Book of Revelation - the earth is righteous, it is superabounding, the Jewish nation once again is Holy and rules with Christ over the men of the earth, their mission finally fulfilled. At the end, Heavenly Jerusalem - the real, true temple, that Israel had made on earth, which was the "type" or a shadow reflection of what was really in heaven, comes down - it is magnificent, with a tribe's name written over each gate, and the names of the 12 apostles written on its foundation. Genesis - Paradise lost, man's spirit - God's "image" - lost. Revelation - Paradise regained, God's "image" restored to man, the woman calls mankind to eat of the tree of life. Israel, the Holy Priests and Kings of Christ restored. What a magnificant book of hope for Israel. I've digressed... What was the question again?

Very interesting article David.

Krysalis, sounds like you raised a wonderful son and instilled fine values in him. We are told that God will restore the years the locusts have eaten - I'm so glad to hear he's doing well with a wonderful wife. What a wonderful man he was to confront them. Thank you for sharing.

Waysider, which site? HC?

Hi Belle, how are you? Thanks for the ideas. Sometimes I get grumpy, I think I was when I started this thread. I would never want tell people they can't post unless they are believers or agree with me, I want all people to put their 2 cents in. I think maybe in just more agreeable ways, because believe it or not, I do learn, and have sometimes changed my mind, by what others have posted here over the years. I think some of the people who still do believe have been a bit intimidated by those who don't lately and just don't really post anymore. I guess that's my point, civility, because religious beliefs are so deeply held and personal.

Hi Abi. I understand what you're saying. Sometimes I need a break from boards (not just this one) too. I do enjoy your writings on the Jewish faith you post. Geisha, interesting food for thought. Question, what did Tertillian say - what was Corinth like? I know from reading Augustine's City on a Hill and his descriptions of Rome, how he used to love the coluseum (before he was born again), his description of the blood lust it eventually engendered upon the people who went to the games, and the results were fascinating. His descriptions of the outdoor plays on the street corners about one god or another and the public sex that was everywhere in the worshipping of them that went on in the plays, all was amazing. People always say this country's going to hell in a handbasket, but compared to Rome and other cultures, we're chaste goody two shoes. In many ways, under the myriad gods, life was short, brutal and nasty. Of course, when Rome did fall, and they were po'ed their gods hadn't protected them, then of course, it was Jesus' fault. I've digressed... So, tell me about tertillian and corinth please.

Lucy, I am sickened and horrified by what you went through, and am glad the bastard is dead and cannot ever hurt you again. But, you are also a newbie here. People did tell and were immediately escorted off grounds, labeled possessed, etc. We didn't have the internet back then, if you did tell, no one believed you. When you returned home, you were ostracized. Read the front page, do some searches. Your self-righteous anger at Dot, Excath and others it totally misplaced and inappropriate. From the tone of your posts, you sound like you still have a lot of anger and rage. You don't have them questioning you and wondering why you are still angry after all this time. Of course, without proof, White Dove and Oldies will assume you are lying about your situation. No "testimonials" for them. Can you back it up in a court of law, papers please, a pacer search so we can find the court transcript of your case please? You will note though, that rest of us will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe what you have gone through. Just a heads up, don't be too surprised when WD doesn't believe your "claim." I'm glad you think you know what Dot, Excath, and others should have done. But you don't know them and don't know really, in regards to their situations, what you're talking about. I think you're being a little judgmental and self-righteous. Apples and oranges, your experience is different than theirs. Although, since you and them had been molested, I thought you, having been in their shoes would have shown a little more compassion.

Here we go again. One who believes in Christ is "narrow minded." Cman opens after Geisha's post with a nice little smackdown. We were having a nice exchange of ideas here. See my other thread. So, should Geisha shut up now? Is the concensus that she's narrow minded? Have her posts offended you? She gave a nice discourse on history. Did people here even read it? It was rather fascinating and part of a discussion she's having with Danny. I think they've both met their match and hopefully will both continue.

Oh yeah, totally agree. I basically started from scratch after leaving TWI. Literally tossing notes, syllabi, books, etc. The very first thing God taught me after walking away (I believe it was Him/Holy Spirit, and it came as a little idea that I mused upon literally for months, then sat down and read the Gospel of John and the first few verses exploded in my head) was - the diety of Christ. That was the first thing - the most important thing. I guess TWI would call it the Trinity. Except it was way beyond TWI's ignorant definition of the trinity. VP had no clue. It was a Seminarian, when I finally shared with her this amazing/wild idea, who looked at me and said, well, you've just described the trinity. I think TWI's greatest disservice was its teaching on Jesus Christ. He is not what they taught. Thus, I believe in most ways TWI was not Christian, just in name only. It denied Christ. VP, the Word, and "believing" were placed in his stead. I really believe most TWI people, past and present, with no understanding of Christ, Church history, etc. really do not know what Christianity is. They don't. Because Christianity is not a "what," its a "who." Its about Christ - he is the revealer, the apokolypsis, to us. Yet, in TWI, he was shoved aside. A cartoon figure up in the sky somewhere who someday will come back, but since he's not here now, let's have our secret doctrines, our top leadership orgies and whatever, because anything goes, as long as you keep it lockbox. TWI had us, its regular followers, and its inner sanctum "initiates." TWI was just another, in many ways, pagan "mystery religion."

Good points all. My sweet Roy, I like your idea of categories, or sections within the doctrinal forum. I think like someone said here, maybe its how things are said. I know I enjoy discussing stuff, either I've read, learned, agree with, or have changed my mind and don't agree with. Like, for example, Roy, you remember when we got into the discussion of Nephilim, DNA, etc. We were both at opposing side of the issue, but it was a good spirited, lively debate. Maybe we all just need to agree to disagree and go from there.

Cman, chill. I haven't accused anyone of anything. I stated my opinion. I stated what I have seen and read here. You just jumped down my throat. Thank you for illustrating my opinion. I just repeated what I have seen posted here quite commonly. When someone is as vehement as you are, why would anyone want to stir up that particular hornet's nest? And if someone has stated they don't believe, why would anyone try and convince them otherwise? Not me. That would be a pretty futile exercise, for people to try and change other people's minds - on both sides. Oak, thanks for your civil reply. All I'm saying, is the Christians here start a topic, and many times its pretty much done in by those who need to let us know they don't believe and subtly mock or insult - as has happened to me and somehow equating belief in Christ or God with some kind of "skygod." I could no more believe in any kind of sky god or Santa, or whatever, either. Neither could any Christian. The living Christ is just that - living in someone's heart. It passes knowledge. To those who know Him, a "sky god" is an absurd comparison. To those who know Him, there is no comparison - it is a living communion with a living Christ. To those who don't know Him, I guess it would seem logical that's what it must be like - some kind of weird sky god - that's all they can compare it with and I can see their point totally. But to a Christian its living and real, its a spiritual life, nothing like the world can imagine or compare. Of course there are the exceptions with threads. The threads I have seen discussions with Christians that have lasted is because they pretty much ignore the one liners and jabs and continue with the discussion. That hasn't happened too recently though. Oh well, at least we can all agree, believer and unbeliever "the law of believing" is whack.

Listen, its really simple. The guy behaved like a jerk. Period. I had no problem with him until recently when he went after me out of the blue. If you can't take it, don't dish it. He has been here for quite awhile. He has quite adequately proved his boorishness, his appalling frivolity on very serious threads, people had just shared about something that had hurt them deeply and he makes a joke. Good, he's gone. I'm sure there are other pro-TWI sites that would love to have him. If he had joined the discussion, whether pro or con, doesn't matter, and had been respectful, as most posters are, he would maybe have garnered some sympathy. But, he couldn't and he wouldn't. Every single thread he went in, he dropped his little turd bombs in and walked away, and said, what, who me???? So, at this point, no one cares. He blew any respect or sympathy he may have garnered. He brought this on himself. He thought he was being funny and cute after people had asked him to stop and be serious, contribute to the discussion. Now, its not so funny and cute to him, is it? Its called unintended consequences, or blowback.

It seems to me, within the last year or so, that when those of us who still believe try and discuss Christ, the Bible, God, that anyone who still believes in Christianity, is now a fool, still stuck in TWI, responsible for the Crusades and mass murder, etc. The belief in Christ is ridiculed, derided, etc. consistently here. We used to have great discussions here. Not so much anymore. A few new people try and explain why they still believe, and are called intolerant, closed minded, not open to new ideas, etc. For those of us GS "old timers" who still believe, for most of us, its just not worth our time to post here anymore because pretty much we will be ridiculed, shot down, called superstitious, irrational, and on and on. You note Jen-O's not here now. Let's see how long Geisha lasts.

Ha! Bumpy complaining this site is like TWI - that's a laugh. Anytime anything not nice is said about TWI, he changes the subject by making stupid jokes and tries his hardest to derail threads. Bumpy, from reading his threads, is more like a TWI person. Nothing bad to be said about TWI if he can help it. He has never added to a discussion, just distraction, "jokes" (if you can call them that) - he's a troll and a good one. He has nothing to add. If he was ever serious and joined in the conversation, that would be one thing, but he is incapable of doing that. Who cares where he is.

All I see in this most recent letter is a middle aged man, trying to recapture the "glory days." Its called mid-life crisis. You can see this quite a bit in male ex-twi leadership. They look back over their lives, see when they were happiest, and try and recreate it. Thus, JAL's new letter, his clarion call, for new recruits. Or, the old guys behind the new corps. Young grandson VP2 will be their puppet. He's the bait, the old guys will run it and bring back those glory days. When will these people realize, its gone, the old TWI is dead, God has moved on. What worked then, in terms of structure, does not work now. You know where the young christian people are today? They are in their church youth groups, and they invite their friends from high school, and they go to places like New Orleans and help rebuild people's houses, or do a habitat for humanity trip. My niece and nephew love it. Their friends are involved. They are wonderful Christian kids. Many of them don't attend the church, but they love their youth group pastors and their teaching. Also, what makes these ex-TWI men believe they were even called to any kind of Christian ministry by God? So, VP ordained them - to serve his organization and herd the people. An ordination by VP does not equal being called by God as a minister. I think many of these men don't have a "ministry" and have no clue what they're doing. Are too proud to get credentialled or go to school, and yet, think because they are advanced class grads, they know the Word more than any other groups. I think all we need do is look at their "fruit." And JAL's is dismal. Somehow, I have a hard time believing, just because he was a top hot dog in TWI, that him and other Revs. actually really have or had, a "ministry."

I think that sums up a lot of this discussion very nicely. VP was evil, but he spoke good things. Those who want to follow an evil man and his good leaven, go right ahead.

I remember when VP called me into the coach, sitting there in his bathrobe with nothing underneath an hour before the SNS at Emporia, grahically telling me what he'd like to do sexually to me, then telling me why he can't have sex with his wife and so he has to get it from other women. He told me I was the only person he'd ever told that, and I had to keep it lockbox. If it ever came back to him, he'd know I was the one who told and would know I couldn't be trusted because I had broken the "lockbox." I remember thinking, I don't want to know this, why are you telling me these "secrets"? Well, I never did tell. His anger was enough to shut me up. It was a few years later I found out from another early corps woman that it was the same line he used on her and other women he had sex with. There was nothing lockbox about it. But it was his method for keeping things secret. He was adamant about the lockbox. I think that really was the biggest sin, in VP's eyes anyway - breaking the lockbox.

Well, aren't you super special and super spiritual Mike, just so far above all of us pathetic believers who don't believe your way - the way you think we all should. You say, I'm superior, I can take any of you on, you ants would scatter... blah, blah, blah. Watch it, pride goeth before a fall. All I saw in your post was great pride. You are a poster boy for the effect VP's leaven had. Its sad. Folks, this is your brain on VP's teachings - they're like crack if you smoke 'em for years. Don't let the door hit ya on the way out. Go now, run.

Obviously I catch on a lot quicker than you. What did you graduate from? Judging from your posts, you may want to look into finally getting your GED after all these years. It may help.

I think VP was a false prophet. I think he was laughing all the way to the bank that his little "keeds" would do whatever he asked. I believe he made merchandise of the Word and his followers.

Awesome post Penworks. If the shoe fits, wear it. And it does fit VP to a "T," doesn't it? Its almost as if he was in the WC with us. Oldies, I'm sorry, but after reading your posts for all these years, you warning people to beware of a "false prophet" or "false teachings" - which I assume you mean DWBH, since it is his article we are discussing - is ludicrous. You are the poster boy for the true false prophet - VP. To warn others of something you don't agree with, and labelling these opinions as false prophecy, will never fly in here. You used up any good will, or anyone wanting to take into account what you may say, years ago with your attacks, belittling, twisting of words, calling people liars, insinuating they enjoyed being raped, etc. Although, I'm sure your two or three followers will be in full agreement - which is of course, predictable.