Cynic

That is not "from a NY York Times article." It is from The Wittenburg Door and obviously is satire, rather than something factual. I think the Door once even "reported" that Corrie Ten Boom had gotten married to Burt Reynolds. The Door's satirical piece on Driscoll can be read at the Door's site ( http://www.wittenburgdoor.com ). I cannot get a direct link to the piece past GSC's filter, but you can find a link to that piece on the Door's main page.

The Internet Archive is again retrieving pages from the site (www.two-age.org) I mentioned. An archive of the main page (with working, archived links!) is accessible at http://web.archive.org/web/20080607162454/http://www.two-age.org . There is an interesting short piece titled, “The Two Ages and Redemptive History,” that has a diagram illustrating the two ages and a present overlap of those two ages. This piece is accessible at http://web.archive.org/web/20080516173455/www.two-age.org/beliefs_index/two-age.htm

I am becoming convinced that prophesies about a glowing future for Israel will be fulfilled in the everlasting, eschatological kingdom that all the elect (both Jews and Gentiles) in Christ from all ages will inherit. Along the lines of there being both a corporate and an individual aspect to resurrection, I think it was Geerhardus Vos who pointed out that the Greek word translated regeneration is used both of the eschatological new creation and of the individual new creature (see Matthew 19:28, Titus 3:5). The eschatological new creation, however, is not completely future. Christ inaugurated it at his first advent. There is a new corporate man in Christ. There are new individual creatures in Christ. In Vosian terms the age to come has “intruded” into the present. Christ is now ascended on high, and spiritually, his elect have been seated with him. The already of the age to come is spiritual. The not yet will arrive at the redemption of the elect’s bodies and the physical establishment on Earth of the eschatological kingdom. It is helpful to view the Bible as having a storyline of creation, fall, redemption, consummation. ***** Geerhardus Vos is a noted figure in two-age eschatology. I was going to post a link to an primer on two-age eschatology that includes Vos’s noted two-age diagram. The site (www.two-age.org) is defunct, however, and the Internet Archive WayBackMachine, which retrieved an archive of the web page earlier today, will not presently retrieve it.

What a pack of false teachers and false prophets. It is interesting, nonetheless, that sickness, insanity, demonic possession, tragedy, and death typically have been soothsaid or interpreted by Wayfers as consequences for less-than-MOG folks leaving of the "household," but the death of the old heresiarch was interpreted as something his subordinates were culpable for. If you've got an IP address for the e-mail source, you might try running it for location, as well as having it checked against the known IP addresses of registered GSC users (mostly to eliminate the possibility that GSC has some sicko pretending to be a Wayfer).

(Note: I began writing this before reading the above post.) Steve, Although I agree with most of what Geisha has posted, I think Hebrews 6:9 indicates the faith of most of the primary recipients of the epistle was regarded by the epistle’s author as genuine, rather than as suspect as what the content of the author’s discourse might seem to suggest. I think the author might have been speaking to a community of genuine believers that was a subset of a community whose members' “faith” was generally quite suspect (i.e. to folks the author thought were genuine converts among some largely unconverted Jewish Jesus movement). This is speculative, of course, but plausible. There had been thousands of Jews that followed Jesus in and about Galilee that did not appear on the whole to become disciples of Jesus. The 6th chapter of John’s gospel in particular is illustrative of this. The parable of the sower indicates there are temporary believers. Another parable of the kingdom speaks of bad fish being drawn in along with good fish. The issue here between you and Geisha -- and between you and me -- is whether temporary believers and other respondents that will be rejected were at any time genuinely converted believers. Do temporary believers at some point have true faith -– something that historically has been characterized (though I think not sufficiently) as a combination of knowledge, assent, and trust? I am no postmodernist, yet I recognize all of us have influences and assumptions that will inform our attempt to answer such a question. We all have hermeneutical (interpretive) processors. Can a genuine Christian apostatize? You seem to think so. I suspect your view is influenced by the New Perspective on Paul, and by an NPP notion of covenant (i.e. that one gets in covenant by grace, but must stay in covenant by practicing covenant fidelity). Please correct me if I am mistaken. Can a genuine Christian apostatize? I think not, but think the impossibility of apostasy involves divinely superintended perseverance of the Christian (Philippians 2:12-13), and is based on the gracious election of the Father, the obedience, sacrifice, and infallible intercession of the Son, and the effectual calling and work of the Holy Spirit. The level of certainty one should have about the genuineness of one's faith is another question. Additionally, I think there is a distinction between those who are partakers of the New Covenant in an external sense and those who are partakers of the New Covenant in both an external and an internal sense. My view is largely informed, of course, by Reformed (Presbyterian) covenant theology –- modified by influences of Meredith Kline and others, as well as by some of my own idiosyncrasies.

It was from Bullinger. Wierwille was retelling a portion of Bullinger's How to Enjoy the Bible,although Bullinger's argument was more capably framed. (See http://philologos.org/__eb-htetb/132.htm ) It has been many years since I read How to Enjoy the Bible, but I recall that reading it revealed Wierwille had pulled a number of PFAL teachings -- and even a number of his PFAL anecdotes -- from it.

I believe and confess that Jesus Christ is God. In confessing that Jesus Christ is God, I am affirming that the Lord Jesus is God ontologically. Jesus Christ is an eternal, divine person who possesses that singular, undivided being/essence which alone is God. I deny, with all orthodox and functioning Trinitarians, both that Jesus Christ is the Father (a heresy of modalists) and that Jesus Christ is declared by Scripture to be God only in some metaphorical, non-substantial sense (one of the heresies of Wierwille). ***** Link: “A Brief Definition of the Trinity” (James White) http://vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html

MStar, Nice clip! I liked it so much that I bought and downloaded the film. Thanks for posting this! (It’s nice to see you’re good for something.)

Actually, I was incorrect. The silver and gold were to be brought into the treasury of the Lord, rather than devoted to destruction. Among the things that Achan took, it appears only the garment would have been subject to the command of destruction.

Ihe word accursed that appears in the KJV sometimes has the meaning of devoted to destruction. The renderings of various Bible versions of Joshua 6:17-7:1 that appear at the following link show this: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joshua%206:17-7:1&version=ESV;ASV;YLT;NIV;KJV Achan’s sin was taking things that God had commanded to be destroyed. Specifically, Achan took a garment, 200 shekels of silver, and a 50-shekel-weight bar of gold. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joshua%207:19-23&version=ESV;ASV;YLT;NIV;KJV Again, the 7th chapter of Joshua does not indicate that Achan was stoned for committing adultery, or that he committed adultery.

Sky, By the way, where do you get that there was some adultery-related stoning in the 7th chapter of Joshua. Achan’s sin involved taking things from Jericho that were to be devoted to destruction.

You bear false witness, Sky. Scripture portrays election as unconditional (Romans 9:11-24), Sky. Calvinism or sovereign grace theology is characterized by a high view of God’s sovereignty and a low view of man’s ability. Man must repent, but repentance is a sovereign grant of God to man (2 Timothy 2:25), and is not enabled by any ability towards God in man. Following are John Calvin’s comments on 2 Peter 1:10-11. Calvin's comments are consistent with a high view of God’s supremacy over the salvation of men, and are inconsistent with the supposed theology of greed (for money and other men’s wives) of your insipid calumnies.

Sky4it, Is your obsession fundamentally about Calvinism (in general)? Is it fundamentally about the doctrine of unconditional election (in particular)? Is it fundamentally about professing Christians living licentiously? Is it fundamentally about a particular adulteress and/or a particular adulterer?

I think the following quote is a competent statement about questions that have arisen in this thread. (From “Common Grace,” by Cornelius Van Til) Van Til thus distinguishes between those who are "epistemologically fully self-conscious" "in their rejection of God" and others who have not passed beyond the possibility of redemption. The former have come to be only hated by God, while the latter still reside under a general love God has for his creatures -- a love that God expresses most excellently to them in the general call of the gospel. I would add, however, that, although it is true that God is loving and merciful to his creatures that have not passed beyond the possibility of redemption, is is also true that God never extended his love to fallen angels or reprobate men in his predestining decrees (see Romans 9:11-16). Scripture makes reference to elect angels as well as making reference to elect humans.

If you care to notice, I waited for a few primary source documents to spring up on the internet -- and more than two weeks longer than you -- before starting to run my mouth in this thread.

I read the Snopes piece, but didn't check out the links. I do see that one of them leads to the warning citation. What you refer to as "the official reply," however, is a press release. I'm a bit hesitant about taking a public official doing damage-control uncritically. Mr. Ekard's distinction between "a land use issue" and "an issue of religious expression," for instance, is -- in the context of the subject controversy -- neither reassuring nor informative.

There are links to a number of primary source documents on the Western Center for Law & Policy (the organization that is representing the pastor and his wife) website at http://www.wclplaw.org/news.html , including a link to the warning-level citation by an enforcement officer that brought religious-assembly issues into play. In her warning, the enforcement officer did not issue corrective requirements for any alleged nuisances (e.g. parking problems, excess traffic), but focused on the assembly in the house being religious in nature. Citation: http://www.wclplaw.org/news%5CCitation.pdf Letter rescinding citation: http://www.wclplaw.org/news/countyresponse.pdf Apology: http://www.wclplaw.org/news/ekardapology.pdf

This is a doctrinal forum. It is NOT a place to "out" a fellow poster. That is common courtesy to let other posters feel safe in posting details that won't be sent out to the world to see. Cynic, you know better!!

It is risky to recommend something you have not read, listened to, or watched, yet I think those having a desire to know more about predestination, unconditional election, and God’s sovereignty might benefit from some of the teachings of R.C. Sproul, who has Ligonier Ministries. Here is a result-page of a YouTube search: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type...nation&aq=f

Belle, I’m in the back row, below the space between the W and I in “Wierwille,” and am partly hidden by some other guy’s mop.

Thanks for posting this. I doubt I would have seen it otherwise. The woman’s singing and the reaction of the judges and crowd was stunning and lovely. I hope she gets much more than 15 minutes.

Here's a photo of a men's branch at the 1975 Advanced Class in Emporia I just uploaded. I think it would be tougher to identify me in this group. I wonder if any other folks in this photo are posting here. http://essaysandinvective.com/1975advclass...oria%201975.pdf

I hadn't read this post before I posted. Another failed endeavor into humor!