WordWolf

On classic rock stations, it STILL gets its share of radio time. It's off an album that sold 7 million units worldwide-the best-selling album of a band that won at least 1 Grammy that I recall. Since I don't have the album, I ONLY know this song from airplay. Maybe you just don't like flute music. Hey, the flute is a (heavy) metal instrument! ;)

"Oh, Father high in heaven Smile down upon your son, Who's busy with his money games, His women and his gun. Oh, Jesus save me!" "If Jesus saves -- well, He'd better save Himself from the gory glory seekers who use His name in death. Oh Jesus save me!"

I usually select that I don't want emoticons in my post, when hitting "add reply." I don't know about any problem, but I like to use all my characters when I need them. ===================== "Oh, Father high in heaven Smile down upon your son, Who's busy with his money games, His women and his gun. Oh, Jesus save me!"

I agree with the quote you posted, and I think it's not "NOW the cults are arriving." I think these problems, with variations, are centuries and centuries old. What is newer is A) mass-production of books to spread information around the world B) the internet, allowing the spread of information to people around the world QUICKLY =================== It seems to me there are a lot of people, given an entire planet, that, at any time, are willing to effectively make themselves children or slaves to one degree or another in exchange for feeling good about themselves and simple answers to life's questions. It's just so much easier to let someone else do the thinking for them.

Blame Raf. He's the one who introduced me to The Cars, and to The Cars' Greatest Hits. The first song on the album is "JUST WHAT I NEEDED." Which, apparently, is just what this thread needed right now. ;)

[twi'ers-- and some ex-twi'ers-- pushed/push this attitude of superiority and arrogance, the OPPOSITE of what one should have if the actual CONTENTS of Scripture matter and not just who can memorize more of it. There are some Christians in churches who do the same, but less than one might think unless one actually INTERACTS with them. I've personally seen more venomous attitudes among twi and ex-twi than outside it. When I've seen such attitudes outside twi, it's always been alongside "Sorry about Christian X- he's always been a bit of a tool." Other Christians get EMBARRASSED about attitudes that get CELEBRATED among some ex-twi'ers and among still-twi'ers.] [The CATEGORY "Fundamentalist" describes all Christians who believe the written Word of God has GREAT Authority. And the phrase "Sola Scriptura" describes all Christians who believe the written Word of God has THE Authority. As categories, in the US alone, that's MILLIONS of Christians. In twi, we never heard of those phrases. (Technically, I did, but not from twi'ers. I first heard "Fundamentalist" explained by friends when I was trying to evangelize them-and they weren't judgemental about it, just trying to figure out my positions. As for the Trinity, not only does the average Christian soft-pedal the whole thing (depending on how the question is phrased, they might repudiate it-one friend of mine did when I asked) but those who believe it look at certain verses and believe those verses support that thinking. Come on- you used to think "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" meant 2 ENTIRELY different things in Scripture, when a simple read of the verses mentioning them both shows they are EXACTLY THE SAME. Someone who knew better could easily have said you didn't "really" believe the Bible had authority at the time- that you elevated your group's teachings over the Written Word. Same deal-people can be HONESTLY MISTAKEN and yet DEVOUT and DISAGREE, even using the same Bible to make opposing points. So, there are plenty of legitimate Christians whom I respect who claim the Trinity, at least formally. Doesn't seem to make a difference to God Almighty, Jesus Christ, or the Host of Heaven, since prayers are answered equally fast for either category.] [The only time twi got mentions was from a small window of time, when twi was considered the "fastest growing" cult- for as much as 5 years after vpw hijacked the hippies and subverted the ministries of legitimate Christians in Haight-Ashbury. Any student of statistics can tell you, "fastest growing" doesn't mean you have a lot of people, just that your PERCENTAGES went up. If you had 5 people 1 year, and 10 the next year, and then 20 the following, your group can be said to have "increased 200%" in 2 years. That SOUNDS like a lot to those who are intellectually lazy. That's why twi used to use percentages to mention way corps grads when they were still mentioning them at all. (20% did this, 20% did that, and so on, with a group of 5 people, so 20% was 1 person.) For people who really have nothing better to do with their time but arbitrarily divide Christians based on a doctrine like the Trinity, all this stuff is scandalous. The average Christian DOESN'T CARE. They MIGHT care if you came in and rudely FORCED THE ISSUE-something vpw did and twi was famous for (and ex-twi'ers were all trained in.) I've seen kids who were never in twi, who had twi-trained parents, come here, post rudely at the rest of us and display shocking ignorance-but sound like every word was pasted right from twi publications. So, that venom has been passed down in a few cases.] [They didn't KNOW vpw was a plagiarist, a pervert, a man who claimed imaginary snowstorms whenever it suited his purposes. What made twi "stand out" was the bombastic displays pioneered by vpw and orchestrated by him-a pushiness that was sent out to infect local communities. vpw once claimed that HE-and a group-were closing an ROA with a list of anti-Trinity verses, which they were going to post at the door of all the local churches. (The idea was a lazy attempt to imitate what Martin Luther did without the important part- Luther was attempting to OPEN DIALOGUE on his 95 Theses, but vpw, as always, planned a hit-and-run.) That was vpw's CLAIM. What happened? No such list. vpw's group, went to the church doors, and posted a sign with his OPINION in big letters. "Jesus Christ. Wasn't God, never will be!" Alongside the sign was an AUTOGRAPHED copy of vpw's book, "Jesus Christ is Not God." vpw made it about HIM when it should have been about what God wanted. Few people actually looked close enough to learn about the imaginary snowstorms, the more regular errors in doctrine. They certainly didn't look close enough to critique perversions in a sex class, or hear about "the lockbox", or be molested or raped or drugged by vpw. What outsiders thought-and think- about twi, however, IS A NON-ISSUE. The NUTTINESS we're discussing is not "what did outsiders think", it's really more "looking back, that was bizarre, stupid..." Cute attempt to CHANGE THE SUBJECT off bizarre practices and doctrines, though. "This is your brain on vpw. Any questions?"]

He used to be ok before twi stole his soul and his moustache. It's a little frightening, if viewed as an outsider, to see the over-planning and the bossiness connected with even the smallest twi get-together nowadays. Then again, that was always at least partly the case. One poster talked about having a bunch of people over-just having people over, not any event. Local twi'ers who were friends were invited, non-twi'er friends were invited. (They weren't ordered to stop having them, so this was before the 90s.) A twi bossy "leader" arrived, decided by divine fiat this get-together was now a "MEETING", and BEGAN PASSING OUT SONGBOOKS. He pretty much cleared out the room of non-twi'ers and choked the fun out for the twi'ers within the next minute.

"So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, 'I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!' I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - 'I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Things have got to change. But first, you've gotta get mad!... You've got to say, 'I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Then we'll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it: "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!" "

Michael Winslow Spaceballs John Hurt

"Monty Python & the Holy Grail". I was busy AND hoping to let someone else join in.

"Bonanza"????

There were 2 Hope Springs. The one you're citing I've at least seen previews for, so I'll go with Tommy Lee Jones Batman Forever Jim Carrey

I'll agree with you about the "dispensation" being a misnomer-I've been translating it "STEWARDSHIP" rather than "ADMINISTRATION" even during my twi days, which is probably one reason I skipped the intellectual blind-spots that are easy to acquire when thinking "administration" in the contemporary US. (The connotations may have been different in 1611 than now.) That made it more about RESPONSIBILITY and about what is God's rather than PRIVILEGES which vpw pushed, whether accurate or not. (And when not, VERY wrong.) I'll also agree the term "rapture" does not appear in the Bible, but I'll firmly DISagree as to whether the CONCEPT appears there and calling it a "rapture" is a modern convenience so that everyone understands each other, whether or not it's the name I would have selected. Having examined the Epistles, the Book of Revelation, and the precedents in the Old Testament, I have concluded that there will be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I have, however, come to very different conclusions than twi as to what will happen at "Judgement Day"-particularly for the Second Resurrection/Resurrection of the Unjustified/ Resurrection of Judgement. I don't think any of that, in and of itself, is relevant to why twi was/is how it was/is. I think vpw was a lazy man, a dishonest man, and a sociopath. That made him a man whose conscience was non-functioning, who also thought he should get whatever he could get without any regard for hurting others so long as he could avoid getting caught. A consequence of that was vpw constructing a theology that immunized him from consequences of his actions. To this day, defenders of his legend refuse to even acknowledge the Epistle verses that say that he won't "inherit the kingdom of God." I'm not sure what that DOES mean, but it sounds REALLY serious-the opposite of every sin of his just covered by Jesus without consequence, and swept under the rug by God because "we are under Grace." There's a lot about that I won't even pretend to understand, but the idea that there's ZERO consequences never sat well with me, and I think it's UNBIBLICAL.

Actually, I did an image-search with that name, but the face didn't remind me of any movie. That's when I gave up and checked Wikipedia. Now I have to re-watch the fight scene and see if he's there.

I looked on Wikipedia, so I'm out. I loved the famous fight scene in the movie he did with Will Farrell, though. With all the actors, I don't remember HIM in the fight, but he was probably there.

Eh, "Maverick???"

Taking a guess here- "Rock-A-Doodle"?

Thanks. In fairness, I quoted one waysider because he made a good point that was easy to skip over, complete with link, and chockfull followed up with points I had left out. One thing I like about the GSC community is that we all bring different things to the table, and often different good points to the table.

[i noticed you've ripped the verse out of its CONTEXT. What it's saying is nothing like what you're CLAIMING it's saying. The chapter is SPECIFIC about addressing a SPECIFIC problem in the Roman church- that of whether or not foods offered to idols should be eaten by Christians.] Romans 14:1-19 1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. ========================= [To anyone seeking to learn what the passage is saying, it's clear- it's addressing a complicated, specific issue, and whether a Christian should judge another Christian based on whether he will or won't eat food offered to idols. Even there, the general guidelines are clear and obvious- don't use your freedom in Christ to harm your brethren. Do the things which edify your brethren. DON'T PUT A STUMBLINGBLOCK BEFORE YOUR BRETHREN. As for whether or not Christians are supposed to exercise judgement, if one stops pulling one verse out of context, and studies THE ENTIRE BIBLE rather than just look for what appears to agree with one's theology, the main thrust of Scripture says the opposite of what you are saying it is, even-perhaps especially- to the Christian. II Timothy 4:14-15 14. Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. I Corinthians 5:1-13 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. ======================= We are EXPECTED to "judge them that are within." We have a SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION. Ïf any man that is called a brother (in Christ) is: a fornicator OR covetous OR an idolator OR a railer OR a drunkard OR and extortioner, we don't fellowship with him, we don't eat with him. We are to JUDGE him and send him AWAY as a result. So, if a man is habitually unfaithful in his marriage OR greedy and grasping, OR a worshipper of an idol or of self rather than God, OR a loud, rude yeller OR an abuser of alcohol OR gets his way by threatening others (I meant HABITUAL when I said HABITUAL because it doesn't mean a man who makes ONE scene or takes an occasional drink or whatever), we are to judge him and send him away. Obviously, then, if he is MANY of those or MOST of those (or even ALL), then we are supposed to judge him and send him away. I Corinthians 6:1-6 1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Paul was OFFENDED that Christians REFUSED TO JUDGE and rather made things between Christians to be matters of the secular law. We are EXPECTED and REQUIRED to judge- and judge RIGHTLY. We are expected to handle things BEFORE they are sent to the courts, and that's seen as a failure of one or more parties if it comes to that. I can keep going, but the point is clear. Anyone who wants to "do God's Word" has more than enough to make it clear what that is in this instance. Those who would rather do their own will won't heed it if 1/2 the Bible said to do the opposite. Same old Johniam. Someone addressed one thing, you refuted something else. Nobody said that every utterance of vpw was disproven. Nobody said the Trinity was proven, nobody said soul sleep was refuted. But you invented a complaint that was easy to argue against, and knocked down your strawman.

===================== Honestly, though, how "deep" are these "principles"? [*]"Acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness." "Receive training in the whole Word so as to be able to teach others." DUH. People are in a program for those who want to be leaders and teach the Bible. "Physical training making your physical body, the vehicle [vee-hicle] of communication of the Word, as vital as possible." Staying in shape is a good thing. vpw knew nothing about it. Rather than leading the group on their runs, he was drinking and smoking-and forbidding them to smoke, at least in SOME of the corps. lcm documented that. vpw didn't even play a little basketball with them. Considering his supposed history as a ball player and inventor of the hook shot, you think he'd at least play a LITTLE. "Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry." vpw ALWAYS watched how much money people were worth to him, which is why twi NEVER did anything that wasn't designed to turn a profit, and lagged whenever he had the chance to "invest in infrastructure." twi's furnishings were always the cheapest that could be found, and refurbished whenever possible. "Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest and need." Supposedly, it was a leadership training program, so this one is self-evident. I'd like to remind everyone that vpw lacked ANY background in ANY training program or in ANY discipline. His personal history is one of cutting corners and avoiding discipline and order. These don't take much thought. I would expect he plagiarized in part from something, based on his history of doing so. He would plagiarize something, make some cosmetic changes, and then pass it around. The poems he supposedly wrote a few times underwent that process. The only snag is that he lacked exposure to any similar program as an attendee or staffer. However, his personal history includes acting as a proofreader ("editor") of other Christians, which showed him how much he could gain by reading the works of others, and, probably, how weak his own work was by comparison. So, in conclusion, I really don't know.

I know very little, but I can add what vpw claimed (which often was a lie.). When addressing the Corps (as recorded and reproduced in "The Heart of the Way Corps", he claimed he came up with them in about 5 minutes when he sat down to write them. He also said that ORIGINALLY, the first one had "OF THE WORD" as the end of the sentence, and complained it didn't make sense to him to claim "spiritual perception and awareness" of anything else. When I heard that the first time, I disagreed on general principle. When/where I was attending fellowships, the idea that EVERYTHING should be understood and spiritual perception applied all the time. (And sometimes the answer was that it was all mundane and NOT supernatural. We were oddballs where I went- which is why numbers kept going up even when they added Corps people who jammed sticks into the wheel spokes of what we were doing.) Anyway, vpw claimed he came up with them, along, sitting down, in 5 minutes. vpw also claimed "of the Word" was the end of CP1. Then again, he's been proven to be a chronic liar. So, I can attest to the claims, but not as to whether they're in any way true.

[i included your incorrectly-formatted quote because it's clear, when both are included, you refuted something that was never posted. It wasn't said that vpw was MENTIONED in teachings. You're using his FRAMEWORK entirely whether or not you're mentioning him each night. If you claim you're not crediting him silently while using his framework entirely, you might convince yourself but you won't convince us. You-and everyone there who learned in twi- have your group based on the construct you'd call "the Word VP taught." (I'd call it something less laudatory.) Those who arrived later, I would bet my life they've heard LOTS of claims about vpw from those who were earlier. It doesn't have to be right during a teaching or a sermon, it can be before or after during socializing, or even some other day when there's no session.] [it's about the damage vpw wrought, the lives destroyed, the minds damaged. And the systematizing of error he set up, which is still harming people in ways large and small. Some of them aren't even aware of the damage. Poor V2P2 has been set up so badly it will be DECADES before he can get free-if it ever happens during his lifetime. The harm people do can live on for years, decades, even centuries after their deaths.] [A lot of people who were never in the cadre (however one would term it) never were privy to the "lockbox" nor were told to cheat on wives. I was never told it-although many WERE told it. It's entirely possible you're correct that this is all nice talk going on. Then again, I've seen your posts here, and what you consider acceptable speech. At times, you seem unaware a line was crossed. It's entirely possible that what you think was just fine contained something other Christians might find objectionable- and by that I mean CONDUCT, not "how many were crucified" or the like. A more objective reporter of what goes on at your meetings would be more convincing.] [All those were taught by Christians before vpw came along. They may be minority opinions, but there's actually a lot of minority positions in Christianity. Sir Isaac Newton, Bible scholar, was never threatened with violence for his position against the Trinity a few centuries ago. I mentioned that position to another Christian, and his sole comment was "the original historical position of Christians." He was just a certain disciple, and it was old news to him, and hardly shocking. The "dead are dead" thing is called "soul sleep" because enough people believe in it that it needs a term so people know what you're talking about. Lots of Christians believe that. As for SIT, you're ignoring that even vpw said it was common enough that the event he attended (with the imaginary snowstorm) had lots of people who SIT'd and who BEGAN SIT'ing at that meeting. In fact, it was so expected that he'd become one, that (if he didn't invent that part) he was able to INTENTIONALLY DECEIVE them and PRETEND he was SIT'ing and just spoke some Greek. Both Leonard and Stiles were teaching this stuff all over the place before vpw stumbled across them both. If you weren't hiding from that, vpw's supposed "accomplishment" wouldn't sound nearly as impressive. He hid the names of others who did all the work from nearly everyone, along with their accomplishments. The goal was to get all the credit and separate us from other Christians. It's still working-some people STILL give him all the credit, and STILL separate themselves from other Christians. I give him all the credit he warrants for that. He may be dead, but his legacy still affects people who should be warned. Of course, as God says, once the alarm is sounded, it's up to the people to heed it or it's on them.] [God care deeply about people lying to his people, about people causing his people to stumble, about those who led his people to sin, about those who abuse the office of religious leader. That's a repetitive lesson all over the Bible. "It's God's Word or it isn't." You're completely missing the point. Whether any one statement of vpw is true or a lie is independent of whether or not it was plagiarized. We've said that for more than 10 years now. "Truth from the pen of a plagiarist is still truth." (Raf.) The actual issues are ones of CHARACTER. Someone goes out to deceive the brethren, then rape some of them, take their money for his vices, and set up a criminal cartel to cover his tracks. His plagiarism was his LURE and his COVER. People thought they were getting "God's Word" when they were being set up for being used. "If you're really the Son of God, jump off this roof. It is written, after all, that He will send His angels to protect you so you don't even bang your foot against a stone." Ever hear that evil ones can quote actual Scripture and use it for evil ends, to manipulate others and claim it's God's Will? It's been going on for millenia. It happened to us, and you think that's a non-issue. Well, I'm glad I don't have to answer for it. I was young and naive once. As to whether or not you're Christians, I'd have to consider that Jesus' sheep hear his voice, and that people of God actually care about things the way God does- approving what He approves of, and disapproving of what he DISapproves of. Me, I'm not prepared to prop up the reputation of someone who will face consequences severe enough that they'd be better off with cement galoshes and dropped in the ocean.] =============================================== [Why were some twi'ers, why are some extwi'ers attracted to nutty things? I think there's the appeal of SIMPLE ANSWERS. Someone hands over something simple and live is black-and-white and can fit on a bumper sticker. I can see the appeal of that. I can also see the appeal of embezzlement, but I'm not signing up for either one. I also think that people feel special if they think there's some secret they feel privy too. "You shall be like God, knowing good and evil" was tempting, in part, because of "knowing good and evil like God" sounded like some special knowledge when what was offered was actually nothing. Adam & Eve couldn't be offered to know good any better, so what was offered was actually knowledge of evil. But it was framed as "SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE." People are often vulnerable to it. It was tempting to some people to think that WE, as twi people, were SPECIAL in the Earth, UNIQUE among Christians, possessing the SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE and obviously superior to other Christians who were unworthy to be our peers. That arrogance was instilled into twi from the beginning and from its head. It took a lot of us years to rid ourselves of it. Some of us still wrestle with some of it. Some of us can't even begin to root it out.] [Pretty much. And they'd appreciate it if you stopped mentioning that because it's easier to ignore something when someone's not warning people about it every month.]

George, I seem to have misremembered the plot of this movie. It's different than what you posted, but they seem to share the same name...

Just to confirm, that was correct.

" Jack Black and Malcolm McDowell star in this movie. A guidance counselor mistakenly sends out the wrong transcripts to Stanford University under the name of an over-achieving high schooler who is a delinquent. The delinquent attends,and flunks out-ending up in jail. He volunteers for an experimental aversion therapy developed by the government to solve society's crime problem."