WordWolf

Hold on.

I'm laughing my a$$ off here about the Trevor as the Half-Blood Prince part... LOL!

A) JKR's mentioned that one of her favourite writers is Nesbitt. Nesbitt's specialty is rewriting

fairy tales. Like the Frog Prince. JKR mentioned that she liked Book 6, but not all the fans would-

which suggested to me that it might be a bit of "this is what I wanted to write, period",

and further might have been her own attempt to rewrite a fairy tale.

Trevor always seems to disappear or be around interesting places and events.

Apparently, it's all been a series of coincidences, but there's been speculation-

like Trevor being used as some sort of spying apparatus by Uncle Algie.

(Uncle Algie, if you recall, gave him the toad, and also was the guy who would have "accidentally"

killed Trevor if Trevor's own magickal nature hadn't saved him.)

What got me thinking of this was looking at a list of all the possible suspects for the

Half-Blood Prince- and the giant squid got a vote as well. When I saw Trevor's name, I wondered

to myself, "A Frog Prince?" and the rest of it came in a flash of inspiration.

It was WRONG, but it was an INTERESTING wrong.

My own speculation also expected JKR to use the HBP to tie in one of the other races of beings

into the war- merfolk, goblins, etc. Since she didn't, I'm almost disappointed.

Ok, other news.

Here's my thing about Sirus' "death", if you will...

Harry talking with Nearly Headless Nick about if Sirius is perhaps a ghost, which Nick denies immediately. He confirms that Sirius is gone - and says as much. I don't know how Sirius will come back or if he will come back, but somehow Nick knows this. Nick also says that he often is approached with this type of question but seems hardpressed to give any details whatsoafter about the afterlife.

I considered that a red herring. Harry was asking the wrong question, and thus went to the wrong person.

Harry presumed everyone was right, and Sirius was killed by the Veil/Arch.

Thus, he wanted to know if Sirius could become a ghost.

Nearly-Headless Nick can tell him of ghosts, but of nothing else concerning death-by his own admission, since he was

afraid to move on to whatever he should have moved on to.

Nick has heard that Sirius was killed, which Nick takes to be true.

Nick can confirm Sirius would not become a ghost, but has no ability to confirm the death report.

Notice how Nick can't tell us what might be faced by someone who reached any Netherworld....

could be another coincidence, could be very convenient, and planned...

It's strange how some are not happy that some

had positive experiences in Momentus/Vision Quest.

[i wonder if this is an INTENTIONAL error-

as in "I'm looking for excuses to dismiss criticism, so I shall pretend that critics have ever objected

to someone having even a single positive experience with Momentus when they have expressed

no such thing";

or a psychological BLIND-SPOT-

as in "I can't see why anyone would care so much about Momentus and still not like

Momentus- they must object to people benefitting from it if they don't like Momentus..."

I can't tell from here.

Either way, it's ERROR- but one is accidental and one is intentional.]

But I guess that any training

that has potential large positive impact on folks will naturally have its share of

negative reviews.

[Any training is bound to have someone who doesn't like it.

That's a non-issue, and pretending it is not is just another smokescreen-

whether intentional or accidental.

There's a big difference between "I don't like the way they do this"

and

"people were being pressured to enter, those running it refused to explain what to

expect, and some of those who took it suffered long-term psychological damage,

and a LOT of those who didn't demonstrated negative personality traits".

Seems a LOT of the people who graduated this "program" and didn't just collapse

decide this thing is right next to the hand of God,

and all criticism is bogus, and all objections must be shouted down,

and even questioning it is forbidden.

Oh, heck, who's surprised? We've seen it demonstrated right on this thread.

People have popped in out of nowhere to attack any dissent,

and NOT with reasoned discussion, most of them....]

Well,

it was ok for vpw to go shopping for pornography to show students in the CFS class.

vpw was ok to do anything because he was "spiritually mature".

It was ok for vpw to show pornography to students in the CFS class.

It was ok for vpw to show some students a film on bestiality, and describe it to the others.

So, in the vpw era, it was hardly condemned in loud voices.

Before 1990, I am unable to find any answers on it one way or the other.

After 1990, I'd bet there isn't one either.

Wow Hammeroni,

Literally. I said, "you're not giving yourself just a LITTLE too much credit here, are you?" (Hammeroni quote)

Did I give myself too much credit? for what? I just wonder why it bothers you so much that not everyone had

a bad experience with Momentous/Breakthrough/Vision Quest. Maybe you should consult your pillow on that

one. Just a thought.

[ A) He was talking about HIS BOSS. READ the posts again. He was NOT addressing YOU-

unless you're actually his boss at work, who's now posting here.

B) Why does it bother you so LITTLE that some people got railroaded into a program that did severe

damage to them? Is it because you buy the "only the strong benefit from this class-

and only the weak suffer damage from it. REAL Christians benefit from this program" stuff?

Maybe you should consult with your conscience as to whether you should be feeling something about

the victims-even if you're NOT feeling anything other than APATHY for them. Just a thought.]

Quick Change

Tony Shaloub

Men in Black II

Is that from "Maverick"?

The movie made a nod to that-with Maverick misquoting his dad all through the movie....

The only catch is that I'm speculating some things we haven't seen yet-

a Netherworld in HP that can be entered like in mythology, and portals, even if they're almost-impossible to use.

Considering how obscure she went to include the Hand of Glory, though, this isn't a big jump.

"You can't keep playing Parises Squares like you're twenty-one years old.

One of these days you're going to fall and break your neck... and I won't be able to heal that so easily."

"Actually... I wasn't playing Parises Squares..."

"Mmm... Worf's calisthenic program again..."

"No..."

"Oh? What were you doing?"

"I was trying to feed Spot."

"Data's cat?"

"I told Data I'd feed it while he was away.

All I remember is setting down the food... and then a hissing ball of fur came out of nowhere.

I hate cats."

Sorry- can't find it from the lines provided.

That may simply mean it was never posted online, or it was, and no links ANYWHERE

point to the site (which is pretty rare.)

Now that we're all friends again --

"What about Kozak's family? What if they come here for revenge?"

"If that happens, I'll stand up, look them straight in the eye, and offer them a bribe."

"I really am very grateful for all you've done. That is why I'm going to let you take your hand off my thigh instead of shattering every bone in your body."

George

Ah!

This is when Quark caused a drunken Klingon-the head of a House- to fall on his own dagger....

which became "I killed him in single combat"- making him the rightful heir to what became

known as "the House of Quark".

The second quote was Grillka, Kozak's widow.

Interesting episode.

No way.

I've been watching JKR's comments about him since Book 5's release.

She's quick to confirm DD's death, but has absolutely refused to confirm Sirius' death-

and has done things like change the question she chose to answer-

"Is Sirius dead?" became "Do you like Sirius?"

and so on.

She's also gone out of her way to say that DD's death must be accepted and fans

must move on-

but she never volunteers anything about Sirius' "death" that isn't directly related to

the question- even if it means changing the question.....

Why the coyness- which is remarkable when contrasted with her candor concerning DD?

Anyway, regardless of how qualified you are as a writer, or as a thinker, or how old you are, or what shampoo you use, or whether I give you an “attitude” problem vis a vis my postings, let’s hope we can keep the bond of peace in Christ between us...ok?

["You were slow-witted and ill-informed. Oh, that notwithstanding, I hope we can keep

the bond of peace in Christ between us."

Bumpy, show me your faith without your works all you want.

I'll show you my faith BY my works. (James 2:18.)

If you're going to throw insults around-let me know if you need a list of the ones already in

this thread-don't expect that to have no effect on "the bond of peace in Christ" with those

you insulted. That's like slapping someone's face and expecting them to just forget it.]

So relax, I’m sure in your intellectual life you even have more important things to do than read and respond to gs postings so early in the morning, especially mine. At least I hope so!

The messenger, that being myself, is not trying to create any misleading games here, because murder is never a game, except maybe if you’re in Iraq at the moment. But if events like this happened and people in the organization at the time were unaware, what are you to deduce? There is a lot of regret I read on gs, and really my heart and my postings are for the most part in empathy and exhortation. I may at times put a little “spin” on certain subjects which some may not like, but that is because I find many people are taking their past problems and themselves too seriously!

[And the square had four sides. Relevance?]

But back to the subject...Because you’re such a smart guy, why don’t you challenge yourself and do some research on what I said happened. I am sure with all your credibility at gs, that if you find what I’m saying to be true, others will not “doubt”. After all, you have your correspondence friends already in Scandinavia, n’est ce pas?

Impress me, I will look forward to seeing another brilliant, analytical posting. Bump

[As I've told one other poster, you are not our teacher, we are not your students,

this is not your classroom, and you are not qualified to assign us homework.

You are one poster, one voice, in a public forum. You may consider this a marketplace,

like the Agora. Each of us has a voice. Each of us speaks.

You speak.

You made a rather outrageous claim. It may be true, it may not be true.

Rather than SUPPORT your claim, you said "Oh, I made an outrageous claim that

is definitely true. The burden of proof is on you to prove it didn't happen."

Excuse you- YOU made the outrageous claim-

it is for YOU to SUPPORT it.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

If you expect to be given respect as an equal here, then you need to follow the

common rules of messageboards, which are hardly unique to the GSC.

If you make a claim-and you made one here-

you must SUPPORT your claim, not pretend it's not your job to support it.

If you don't want to support a claim, DON'T MAKE THE CLAIM.

There's plenty of things I don't post because I don't feel like supporting them.

So what I DO post, I can-and do-support.

So, Bumpy, unless you're lacking in common internet manners,

AND an arrogant prig, you have 2 choices.

You can support your claim,

or you can apologize and withdraw your claim.

Alternately, you can legitimize the position that you're an arrogant prig who just

makes up claims out of thin air and expects people to just believe them,

and use any of a number of responses

("I refuse to support my claim", "Your mother!" "Anyone who expects me to

support my claim is a fool", "I know what I believe *storms off*"

"*stops posting for a month, then resumes, hoping everyone's forgotten*").

You're free to do that- but it WILL send a message, and probably NOT the one

you MEANT to post.]

So,

theorizing and speculating time.

Who thinks Sirius Black died and who thinks he's still alive?

As far as the books go,

we know he was last seen in the Death Room of the Dept of Mysteries,

having passed thru the Veil/Arch.

He was hit with an unvocalized Stunner, and shoved thru the passage.

So, he was very much alive the instant before he went thru.

We know it was a Stunner because Harry was watching the scene, and

Harry's well aware of what a green spell means-only the AK has been

demonstrated to be green.

Bellatrix fires a red Stunner, misses, then fires another spell of unspecified

colour, which shoves Sirius.

Harry expected to see Sirius alive a moment later-and he knows full well

what a green spell-the AK-does.

If that really was the AK, and JKR NEGLECTED to give the colour and Harry's

response didn't reflect that, JKR made a mistake more fundamental than I'm

prepared to accept her making. She's mortal, but she's not moronic. Every

use of the AK is carefully placed in the series.

Would a single non-AK kill Sirius?

No. Sirius was in his 30s and in full health. He can weather one better than a

Muggle of similar age and health. McGonagall, at her advanced age,

takes 4 Stunners and needs medical attention-but that doesn't kill her either.

(Book 5, during the Astronomy OWL.)

So, he was alive unless the Arch/Veil killed him.

And if he's alive, he'll be seen again in Book 7.

(Otherwise, there's no point in him not dying.)

So, Sirius: alive or dead?

Here's what I think.

(And this is coming from someone who had an elaborate theory that showed it was almost

obvious that Trevor was the Half-Blood Prince, so make of it what you will.)

Sirius Black went through a one-way portal to the Lands of the Dead, the Underworld, the

Netherworld, Erebus, Pluto's realm, etc.

Three characters were fascinated by that portal- Neville, Harry, Luna.

They're united by having all seen someone die-

and also by having been exposed to sap from Neville's mimbulus mimbletonia plant.

(The Hogwarts Express ride in, Book 5, just before Cho Chang walks in.)

There may be a link to either-or both-connections.

The characters all THINK Sirius died. However, none of them work in the Dept of Mysteries,

where this was being studied. Only Broderick Bode was an OotP member who DID work there,

and he "conveniently" dies in Book 5 (strangled by Devil's Snare in St Mungo's long-term care

ward, same area as the Longbottoms and Lockheart.) So, I don't consider them to be reliable

as to whether or not Sirius Black died upon passage through the Veil/Arch.

A lot of Harry's journey has paralleled the Hero's Journey of the monomyth.

In that journey, part of it includes the descent into the Netherworld to rescue a loved one.

Orpheus did it, Hercules did it, and so on. Harry hasn't done it-yet.

If Sirius IS alive, he's trapped and needs a rescue. (Otherwise, he'd have escaped already.)

If so, who would go, what would they need, and when would it happen?

Here's how I call it. (With a little help from a few friends also good at mythology.)

Obviously, it would be in Book 7. (I predicted that before Book 6 came out. Not enough suspense

is built up otherwise.)

Those who would go: Harry, of course, Neville, for reasons I'll explain in a moment, and

Luna Lovegood, who has no fear of death, and BLEW UP PLUTO in the Dept of Mysteries,

Book 5. (Coincidence? Maybe....) All 3 have seen someone die, were exposed to

mimbulus mimbletonia sap, and are underestimated.

When would it happen?

Any date when the barriers between the dead and the living are reputed to thin.

Could be Halloween-that's always significant in HP, and in Book 2, Harry crossed a veil

and interacted with the dead on Halloween. (Nearly-Headless Nick's Deathday Party.)

Could be New Year's Eve, the crossing of the year barrier.

I think it will be April 30, at dusk. That's Walpurgis Night. I know JKR knows the term, because

she once said the Death Eaters were originally known as the Knights of Walpurgis.

There's a number of legends concerning Walpurgisnacht, but the one she's probably most

familiar with is that the barrier between the dead and living falls from dusk to dawn.

That's mentioned in Bram Stoker's "Dracula's Guest", which I read as a kid, and I'm confident

she read it too-since she's Scottish, and so is Stoker. So, dusk to dawn, April 30-May 1.

Who goes? The 3 I mentioned. What do they need? Could be a few items.

Traditionally, a coin of the lowest denomination is needed, if Charon's Ferry is used.

(The lowest denomination because the rich and the poor all face death, and that's why

pennies were left on people's eyes.)

Whether or not it's needed, I expect 2 items to be absolutely needed.

JKR specified that Book 5 was so big because she needed to include things to be mentioned

later. Almost none of them were used in Book 6-therefore, they will be used in Book 7.

I say 2 items will be needed.

The broken mirror Harry was given by Sirius, and the mimbulus mimbletonia plant.

The broken mirror, because she promised it will be used, and be useful, but not like

it's expected. That suggests to me that it can't be used to communicate, but will be used.

I came across a reference that a broken mirror can be used to trap a soul, and I think it

will be used to "capture" Sirius to bring him back.

I say the mimbulus mimbletonia, because we're hit over the head with it all of Book 5.

It's the only Gryffindor password ALL YEAR.

It shows up in several scenes, and Neville's ALWAYS carrying it.

The 3 have been exposed to its sap.

It's from Assyria, same as the Gilgamesh legends, where a water-plant comes up in

Gilgamesh's searches for immortality.

It makes a crooning sound, and releases sap.

So, WHERE is it used?

Has to be someplace where there's a crossover into the lands of the dead, someplace

where there's a crossroads of some kind.

Could be Egypt, could be Assyria, could be someplace local.

Probably a cave-the crossroads of the surface world with underground.

So, is it a portal that's safe to use?

Well, I think it will be difficult to use. It will only open during specific times-

like the dates I mentioned, from dusk to dawn-

and only with the proper "key". That could be any item, but I think it will be a

SOUND-key, and thus the "crooning" of the mimbulus mimbletonia.

They'll have until the first rays of dawn to rescue Sirius, have an adventure,

Luna will stop pursuit, and there will be last-minute drama.

For all I know, they may end up on the same side of the barrier as

Wormtail, Severus Snape and Voldemort.

If so, there will be a fight, and both Wormtail and Severus Snape will have a

chance to discharge their debts to Harry by helping disable Voldemort,

leaving him trapped there when dawn begins.

That would leave Voldemort trapped and conscious in the lands of the dead,

possibly a prisoner. Personally, I see Harry and Voldy in a shoving match

at the portal just before the first rays of dawn strike, and Harry shoves

Voldy back in just as Harry's pulled clear by Wormtail and Severus.

That would fulfill The Prophecy, literally-

"either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..."

So Voldy would "die", literally at Harry's "hand".

Then again, it's possible the Voldy fight doesn't take place there at all.

Personally, when I found out that the term "Deathly Hallows" appeared in the

title of Book 7, I all but considered that CONFIRMATION.

It will either refer to a PLACE or a TIME. I expect either to refer to the place/time

I mentioned above. Oh, and Sirius will be fatigued from his experiences, and thus

not a factor until Voldy's defeated and we look to the future.

That's what I say.

The first couple of posts in a thread usually give the rules. Sometimes parameters are added later, if an obvious way to "cheat" the system appears. For instance, in the "Name that..." threads, googling is not allowed, becuase they're supposed to be memory tests, not tests of web searching skills.

The person posting SHOULD look it up to ensure more, and more accurate, quotes.

Anyone ELSE who looks it up has excused themself from guessing that round-

and should NOT post any clues or quotes unless the poster has vanished and isn't posting

anymore. Generally, at least one quote for every 24 hours is a good idea, and not

starting with an incredibly obvious quote that EVERYONE would get. That's a suggestion,

not a rule.

A general rule of the "Name that..." and "Pictionary" threads is that the person who correctly guesses gets to post the nest line (or puzzle). Sometimes, the person whose turn it is may open it up to anyone, if he is uninspired, uninterested, or generally unavailable. We occasionally have "post-bys" where someone guesses correctly and then disappears. After a couple of days, anyone may jump in.

Specific to this thread, any of the "live" ST TV shows are open game, though you will find that many more players are familiar with the original series and NG than with the later series. And the person POSTING the lines may, of course, google for accuracy. Correct guesses must include the series and either the episode title or enough of a description to identify it (as I believe I did with my last two guesses).

Next Generation (NextGen or "TNG"), Deep Space 9 ("DS9"), Voyager ("VOY") and Enterprise ("ENT")

are not.

Please note that not so many people saw Enterprise, more saw Voyager, more saw Deep Space 9,

and TOS and TNG are pretty much universal. (But all of them are open for posting.)

If people are stuck after a few quotes, a clue is not necessarily a bad idea.

That being said,

"I really am very grateful for all you've done. That is why I'm going to let you take your hand off my thigh instead of shattering every bone in your body."

George

Hm.

There's a few possible people who may have said that.

From TNG, could have been Tasha Yar, but I doubt it's TNG.

Doesn't sound like the 2 later shows to me.

Sounds distinctly like Deep Space 9.

Most likely, Major Kira Nerys. (Also possible is Jedzia Dax.)

Who'd she say it to?

Hm.

Could be Quark. Could be Gul Dukat.

Could be someone else, but I think those are the most likely suspects.

But what the context is, I've no idea yet.

As a minister for Christ I could never rightly recommend a program that turned out to be harmful to anyone. So my beef would be that it can't be recommended by a true minister of the true God, TYVM. Now you think about that while you continue all your finger pointing.

I recommended to my wife that she get her driver's license. Despite the fact that daily there are thousands of deaths

due to automobile accidents! I guess I'm not true minister of God. Putting my wife in such danger!! What kind of slug

am I ?!!

Oh ductape - you're ministry is such a soft and loving one, floating on cotton clouds in a land of peace, good will,

and safety. Your followers must be getting along well in this world free of wars, violence, corruption, and sin.

[Will someone explain the difference between recommending a program, where the contents and

program are entirely optional-

and things like driving and leaving one's home, which are unavoidable but risks in them can be

minimized?

Apparently, he's the kind of slug that can't tell the difference between the two,

or is willing to try to muddy the waters in a sad attempt to blow smoke and obscure the gaping deficiences

in the program he's trying so ardently to defend.

"That the program be not blamed! Confuse the issues! Blur the distinctions!"]

Hey holy smoke,

Any minister or training worth its salt is going to come under the gun from folks who have other opinions. Last time I checked - there's a spiritual war going on out there. People didn't exactly welcome Jesus with open arms when he started doing miracles, etc. They killed him.

[by your standard, then, Jim Jones and David Koresh were also "worth their salt"-

since they "came under the gun from folks who have other opinions",

and died for their religions.

For the rest of us, the question is: are complaints levelled against ministers WITH CAUSE,

or is the minister BLAMELESS?

If a minister is twisting the arm of someone to pay to enter a program that gives them a nervous

breakdown, most of us would consider the victim to have a complaint WITH CAUSE.

Of course, some of us, if we like the program, will instead circle the wagons and blame the

victim instead.

Hm. Many of us already saw that with ONE organization....

and we're watching it play out again right in front of our eyes right on this messageboard.]

I'm not the final judge of the goodness or badness of these programs/trainings.

What I want to say is that there are good opportunites for training and growth out there for Christians.

[And also some amazing danger, pitfalls, predators, traps out there for Christians.]

Whatever you do, trust that God will be there to sort it all out.

Or maybe obey Hebrews 5:14 and recognize the differences yourself.

Hebrews 5:14 (New American Standard Bible)

"But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil."

Don't let a little thing like God's Word slow down advertising your program, Sparky...]

Realize that growth is gonna take risk, and there will be some stumbling, and some falling along the way. Don't close yourself in a bubble because you've been hurt or deceived. The peace and joy and love kingdom of god that Jesus calls us to live in is there for the taking, but it does require action and trust in God above all else. Go for it - God will be with you.

[On the other hand, there's plenty of risks, stumbling, and falling that is NOT for the mature growth

of Christians.

Want to experience risks, stumbling, and falling?

Fill your pockets with money, then go to New Orleans at the height of Mardi Gras,

then Rio during Carnival,

and wind up the trip in Las Vegas.

You'll experience a lot of risk, stumbling, and falling, all of it far outside of any bubble you were in.

You'll also have a HECK of a lot more fun than a weekend of being locked in a room with people

yelling at you.

And there's no guarantee you won't grow a lot more than the yelling thing.

(No guarantee you won't catch a venereal disease either, but if you want a REAL stumblingblock to

your flesh, it sounds like one of the more interesting ones.)

So, "take action"- buy your plane tickets, and "trust in God above all else.

Go for it-God will be with you."

Hey- let's apply that advice CONSISTENTLY, if we're going to apply it.]

Regarding this comment you made:

Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again.

That's just it - the Momentus / Vision Quests folks never say or act like they have cornered the market on truth. And all types of feedback are welcome. Feedback after the training is requested. After the training, I left Michigan to my home in New England, and heard little more from any in the group. I have befriended and kept in touch with several - but that is it. That kind of disappointed me from a fellowship point of view, but there is definitely no signs of a pushy culty type of behavior in all of this.

It's great that this is NOT your experience with Momentus.

HOWEVER,

we've heard from some other people, and your experience, while not isolated,

is not universal, either.

A lot of people came out of is as more arrogant than when they entered.

Some people *cough* JAL *cough* are still pushing it as THE answer for people,

even if they're pushing it one-on-one.

And as quoted, some people's idea of "responding to feedback" and "dialogue" is

"attack the dissenter." We have eyewitnesses.

Some people *cough* JAL **cough* have, and continue to treat Momentus as some

sort of initiation rite. Those who haven't taken it are "other" and are inferior in some

way, shape or form.

TWI screwed up a lot of people. But it doesn't have to be the end of their personal growth, and the end of being able to have reasonable trust of people and groups of people. Don't let your bad/evil/difficult experiences live in you in unhealthy ways. I've taken all kinds of hits from all kinds of people and groups - Christian and non Christian - but have miraculously (praise God !) stayed faithful and grown. Right perspective in life can lead to some really nice pastures.

I am not in the business of promoting Momentus or Vision Quest. But I do have an interest in chatting about my experiences in Christian organizations and groups. It's good to compare and contrast and try to figure out how to fellowship without getting screwed. To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs.

Understanding and growth IS what I would like to be all about.

Might I recommend putting a finer magnifying glass on the situation?

While not everyone's had these experiences, enough HAVE that you should be able to

find them without difficulty....

"Bada bing bada bang"! One of those Vic Fontaine DS9's.

Correct!

And I'm glad someone got it early. This is one of the episodes where I can't find the entire

script posted online, so I was going to be limited in what I could quote.

Go, Pam!

*begins doing random ST searches*

Oh, I know which one I want!

"If you guys screw up, I'm the one who gets buried in the desert."

Some links on Momentus....

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_momterri.htm

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/mom_momcofield.htm

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_mombarton.htm

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_momenrobins.htm

And a previous thread on it, called "Momentus."

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4424

Someone asked about Momentus....

Please explain to me what the Whole Momentus thing is all about? Is it specifically a Christian thing, or a pyschological thing? How does it fit in with the Bible?

Love always in Christ,

Joe

Here's a quick primer.

Here's some stuff off previous posts on Momentus.

"These folks are NOT mental health professionals. Their group identifies itself with being a "Christian" based organization. By going the route of religion, they avoid the entire academic approach and operate under the flag of Christianity.

The fact of the matter is they are an offshoot of a group called "Lifespring" which makes no pretense of being Christian....and "Lifespring" is an offshoot of the original "EST" training from the 70's. The founder of Momentus was actually an instructor with "Lifespring", who quit and started his own thing (sound familiar?)...only when he started up Momentus, he put a thin veneer of Christian jargon into the training. The Momentus training is almost identical to the Lifespring training...

The question that should be asked is are the techniques used by Momentus biblical? I see NOTHING in the bible that even hints at this type of experience. Can you see Jesus asking you to sign a hold harmless agreement?...or putting you through sleep deprivation and then screaming at you and ordering you to punch a pillow screaming, "mommy, mommy"???

If a person finds value in Momentus...that's their decision....but let's be honest about it....this is new age psycho therapy...and definitely not Christian in nature. I realize that if a Christian takes Momentus, they can internalize their belief systems into the training...but that's only because of what they bring into the training themselves...The same could be said of the experience of an Ozzy Osbourne concert."

"my only "experience" with momentus was all it took to convince me i wanted nothing to do with it.

i was having lunch with john lynn (something we used to do once a year when he was in the area), and he brought it up to me. this was before any of the bad press, etc. so i asked him to tell me about it. he responded by saying "you'll have to take the class to find out," the same kind of bs we used to say when telling someone to take pfal. i knew right then i'd never have anything to do with it."

"She and her husband invited me to a dinner with two x-twi who were now "trainers" in Momentus (people who apparently sit in the back of the class and take notes & stuff.)

I told all concerned, sure I would like to get together with them but I was not going to take Momentus, nor did I want to go to a dinner promoting it.

We got to dinner and about 10 minutes into it, the dinner became a platform to push me and my spouse into taking the class.

We left.

Later, when the friend of mine tried to push me into the class for about the 12th time and I told her, "NO," she told me I was sick just like Crxig Mxrtindale.

Now, this girl had never been in TWI and all she knew of it was from me, who was her friend. And some SPLINTER people, to whom I had introduced her, while I was checking them out myself. So, were they bashing me because I declined a class they promoted? I dunno. Because my friend never knew, met or heard Crxig teach -- she had no personal experience of him at all. Yet, she was comparing me to Crxig because I was uninterested in another "class".

All I knew was, I was just getting over where the first class I took (PFAL) had taken me.

This girl, when I asked her what version of the Bible she had, said, "green." She did not even know it was King James. This same girl, began to tell me how lousy of a Christian I was, when she graduated from Momentus, the very next week.

I couldn't believe I was the one who introduced her to the avenue that led her to this.

I wrote her a note about the "novice Christian" and if she still felt this way about me in five years, to come back and tell me. Otherwise, I was going to blow her off like the freshly born-again person, one might have the misfortune of sitting next to on a long plane ride. Over zealous, critical and annoying. She pushed Momentus at me again."

"I knew two couples that were friends of mine. Both couples became insufferable to be around for about a month after taking Momentus.

One guy actually said, "If you see the changes in my life.... and would like these same changes ...blah blah blah.." I told him that he was had become one of the least humble people that I had ever been around.

The other couple couldn't seem to keep their word - even though they told me that that was a big deal in Momentus."

"Ya know what I find rather curious re: Momentus and their near rabid insistance that whatever negative effects that you endured while taking their course, it is your doing, your responsibility, etc., ...

... whereas any positive results that you enjoyed as a result of Momentus, they will not contradict you if you give Momentus the praise and credit for said positive results. ... Ie., they don't mind taking the credit, but they do mind taking the criticism."

"She said they teamed her up with a partner, then told her if she quit, the partner could not continue in Momentus training. So, YOU were responsible for the other person being unable to finish the class.

She said although they had Bible verses on the wall and played LOUD good Christian music, little of it had to do with God.

She said she was asked to stand and tell something about herself and whe she was finished she was screamed at that she was lying.

This was to get to "her truth" about herself so she could find the real her.

She was taught that OTHERS people's perceptions of you are WHO you really are. And almost anything you find wrong with another person goes back to your childhood.

This way of thinking became very annoying and helped to push us toward the end of our friendship. For instance, we would be driving and someone would cut me off and I would get angry. And she would constantly tell me, "who are you really mad at? Your father?"

This became her way with everything.

The CLASS was a “weekend” and the girl I knew was gone, and this kind-of robotic know-it-all woman then existed. She judged everyone and thought if she got people to be "honest" she could help them. Even at work, she would flow all her information through her NEW found filter.

She lost her job.

I got her an interview at my company, to help her out. ON THE INTERVIEW, this woman with a maters degree begins to PUSH the Mometus class to MY BOSS. And then began to critique her, bringing up some things I told her in confidence as MY FRIEND."

"I will say this anytime you have sleep deprivation, loud music and people screaming at you it's going to affect you somehow. I put my whole heart into it like I had been taught to do with everything, and boy it was hell. Granted some sins I had comitted had come out which I suppose in essence is good, but I know there was a better way. Shall we say a more Christ-like way? I didn't end up in the hospital as some did but I did end up striking out physically to others which was not my nature. And how devilish is this .... about I assert? Who in the hell was I to judge anyone and thats exactly what it encouraged. Yes it is true that we are not to lie but does that mean we go around and spew our thoughts all over the place? I was told by my husband after Momentus during one of our little chats that he desired to have sex with our church leaders wife. Now did I need that tidbit of truth? I should say not. I know from the experience it led to a lot of disobedience from we women in the church. Also a lot of false prophesy was going around at that time...yuck! So was Momentus evil? I will not speak for others but I wouldn't take it again and you can put that as my ephitat on my gravestone....for those who took it."

"..But instead of an honest dialogue, I got the "haves and have nots" treatment...you remember that one don't you? It's when the whole group exchanges those "knowing looks" with each other and then proceed to avoid answering any questions...I was told "just take the training and you'll see for yourself." Reminded me too much of "just take pfal and you'll see for yourself"...it became obvious to me that either you were an enlightened "Momentus grad", or you were a schmuck...you had to do this to "really" be a part of the group, before they would accept you...

Sorry...that sealed it for me. I voted for individuality instead...told them I wasn't interested and they turned into rattlesnakes towards me...and I WAS told that if I wasn't willing to confess my secret sins to other people, that I "had something to hide"..."

"CES promoted Momentus very heavily in the late 90's after the Board took the class and got tremendous breakthroughs in their own life. However, they backed off when they were told about others taking the class and having severe problems and reactions. My experience with those guys is that they tend to jump on the bandwagon rather quickly if it's something that's beneficial to them without really weighing the consequences.

Also, the promotion was faulty. People were told it would change their lives, that if you wanted to experience breakthroughs and get real about your life, you needed to take this. I even heard of people thinking that it would be like marriage counseling. God help them. There was a subtle undercurrent of, you've got to take this to be more godly, like us. Nothing obvious, like TWI, and nobody bullied anyone into taking it, but for people who were involved with TWI, some of the old mindsets would pop up in those situations."

"In a way Momentus seems to me like "Rodeo School" was with TWI. Same thing with "You gotta go to Gartmore..." and how the whole Chris Geer thing was at one time after POP. This was before CG was declared to be "SATAN," Now folks don't want to be associated with him. Is he "satan" because of HIS satanic ways, or because "leadership" declared him to be?

People were RIDING 2000 POUND BULLS because "leadership" said it was the thing to do. It was like you weren't cool if you didn't go to rodeo school. If you didn't do well at LEAD you were "not Corps material." We HICH-HIKED hundreds of MILES across the country and "NOBODY questioned" the basic sanity of that. If you didn't go WOW, want to go WOW or "go Corps" you were "less than" as a believer.

Years later, after "all that" is over... "you gotta do "Momentus???""

"Momentus is/was clearly a rite of initiation, a tribal ordeal, basically a hazing, for some (or many) of its graduates. The emotional maturity of those individuals is questionable, if only because of that view. To use a sports analogy, it's a tryout to see who makes the first string and who warms the bench. Does "Athletes of the Spirit" sound familiar? Same attitude.

To use a military analogy, it's boot camp, where they break you and then rebuild you. (I've never been to boot camp, but testimony abounds.)

That view would be consistent with the steroidally competitive personalities among certain TWI leadership."

"Oh yeah...I found it rather interesting when they all "ganged up on me"...trying to convince me that I should share all my "secret sins" with them...I figured that they got suckered into sharing THEIR secret sins during the Momentus training and now they were looking for someone stupid enough to follow their lead...No thanks...one cult experience was enough for me.

All of you Christians out there...would Jesus make you sign a "hold harmless" clause before he started "training" you???"

"About 7 years ago, I was approached by some former twiers, all of them connected with CES...their mission was to recruit me into the next Momentus training...they lauded it to the sky..."better than pfal...greatest thing since sliced bread...life changing...you just GOTTA do it"...that's all I heard from these folks...

Of course, my bull.... meter started redlining...so I went onto the internet and checked out everything I could find about Momentus...found out that it was an "offshoot" of LifeSpring which was an "offshoot" of the old EST training...had nothing to do with Christianity until the Momentus folks decided to paint a thin veneer of "bible words" on it and gave it a different name...

In all honesty, I listened to the pros and the cons...weighed it all out and decided..."Are you kidding me?...no chance I'm gonna take that thing"

I even attended the Momentus "public explanation" meeting...or whatever they called it...at the end of the meeting they asked if anyone had any questions...nobody did...until I started talking...I asked them about "LifeSpring", I asked them to explain the points made by the anti-Momentus folks from the internet...I was quickly "hushed up" and taken to a room alone. I guess they didn't want the other "newbies" to hear what I was saying...

The interesting part of this whole process, was that the folks from CES who were trying to recruit me, were as sweet and kind to me as you can imagine...until I informed them that I was not interested in taking Momentus...then they showed their true colors...One woman screamed at me...yes, she screamed..."WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE?"...they became very hostile towards me...of course, that only reinforced my decision to not take Momentus. In fact, when I got home that night, I called JAL on the phone to let him know what I thought of Momentus and his connection to it...we "discussed" the matter for about an hour on the phone. Neither of us had changed our opinion by the end of the conversation...

...and all those CES/Momentus folks who were singing the praises of Momentus?...within a year of taking it...EVERY ONE of their lives were in shambles. One guy in particular...he insisted on confessing to his wife that he had had an affair with another woman 5 years earlier...he told me that because of the Momentus training, he knew that he had to "get honest" with her about this...shortly after his confession, his wife left him and took all the kids with her...his life went into the toilet.

Let me see if I understand the Momentus way of thinking, from this example...The guy decided that to ease his own guilty conscience, he would burden his wife with this devasting information...that way, they would become closer because of the pure honesty of it all...

...I think maybe they should have thrown HIM out of the "lifeboat" first.

"Your life will change over the period of a weekend if you take our training"...Sorry, life just doesn't work that way."

I know one BOD member of S&T in paticular,

who has read these posts and been hurt by what he read.

I have 2 responses, both from the heart.

A) It's about fricking TIME someone at ces/stfi actually FEEL SOMETHING when hearing about

lives being ruined, and doctrine that did damage- that THEY PUSHED.

THEIR doctrines and THEIR practices are hurting people.

Not EVERY person-but does that excuse them?

Are those who ARE hurt "disposable"?

What we've heard so far is SPIN CONTROL.

"Our doctrine is correct."

"By my book."

"Join our group if you really want to know what we teach."

All of that has all the warmth of an infomercial.

If they care about the PEOPLE more than they care about the organization,

some hurt feelings are the LEAST we can expect from this.

Then again, it's not like Momentus grads actually are experts in trying to not-hurt people,

or to fix what they break in a way that doesn't hurt OTHERS more in exchange for making

themselves feel justified.

B) Aw, you were caught damaging people's lives,

or ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH,

and people said some things about you for your laziness or incompetence....

Cry me a river.

You volunteered to LEAD.

That means you put THEM as paramount, not YOU, not the ORGANIZATION.

Every reaction so far seems to be "save the organization!"

rather than

"save the people!"

And the calls for compassion are for compassion towards THE LEADERS,

aka THE ONES THAT CAUSED THE PROBLEMS,

and not THE PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN HURT.

There's something seriously UNCHRISTIAN and MERCANTILE about how this

ORGANIZATION is run.

And it strikes a few of us as FAMILIAR.

"Save the organization-the people are disposable."

"The leaders are always right."

"Know something bad? Better keep it hidden in the lockbox."

They were carefully taught those lessons ONCE,

and it doesnt sound like they've travelled very far from them.

There's been some cosmetic changes, but God help the Christians!

Once again, it's a roll of the dice- a flip of the coin.

Heads, they help you grow, tails, they traumatize you and run your life.

I too must applaud Johns heart - but to call it 'pontificating' I would have to politely disagree. What I read was an outpouring of heart - and yes, we all know that 'sincerity is no guarantee for truth' (to coin a worn out phrase), however the words that were spoken were spoken with love and

were chosen very carefully as to not be offensive.

Thats love in any language in my book...

God bless :)

That, apparently, must include the end, when he addressed the GSC crowd specifically

and said

anonymous people who lack the love and courage to identify themselves in interacting with me.

Thank you for playing, and have a nice day.

This is when the Enterprise grabbed the Romulan cloaking device-

after administering the Vulcan Death Grip to Kirk,

isn't it?