WordWolf

Hey holy smoke,

Any minister or training worth its salt is going to come under the gun from folks who have other opinions. Last time I checked - there's a spiritual war going on out there. People didn't exactly welcome Jesus with open arms when he started doing miracles, etc. They killed him.

[by your standard, then, Jim Jones and David Koresh were also "worth their salt"-

since they "came under the gun from folks who have other opinions",

and died for their religions.

For the rest of us, the question is: are complaints levelled against ministers WITH CAUSE,

or is the minister BLAMELESS?

If a minister is twisting the arm of someone to pay to enter a program that gives them a nervous

breakdown, most of us would consider the victim to have a complaint WITH CAUSE.

Of course, some of us, if we like the program, will instead circle the wagons and blame the

victim instead.

Hm. Many of us already saw that with ONE organization....

and we're watching it play out again right in front of our eyes right on this messageboard.]

I'm not the final judge of the goodness or badness of these programs/trainings.

What I want to say is that there are good opportunites for training and growth out there for Christians.

[And also some amazing danger, pitfalls, predators, traps out there for Christians.]

Whatever you do, trust that God will be there to sort it all out.

Or maybe obey Hebrews 5:14 and recognize the differences yourself.

Hebrews 5:14 (New American Standard Bible)

"But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil."

Don't let a little thing like God's Word slow down advertising your program, Sparky...]

Realize that growth is gonna take risk, and there will be some stumbling, and some falling along the way. Don't close yourself in a bubble because you've been hurt or deceived. The peace and joy and love kingdom of god that Jesus calls us to live in is there for the taking, but it does require action and trust in God above all else. Go for it - God will be with you.

[On the other hand, there's plenty of risks, stumbling, and falling that is NOT for the mature growth

of Christians.

Want to experience risks, stumbling, and falling?

Fill your pockets with money, then go to New Orleans at the height of Mardi Gras,

then Rio during Carnival,

and wind up the trip in Las Vegas.

You'll experience a lot of risk, stumbling, and falling, all of it far outside of any bubble you were in.

You'll also have a HECK of a lot more fun than a weekend of being locked in a room with people

yelling at you.

And there's no guarantee you won't grow a lot more than the yelling thing.

(No guarantee you won't catch a venereal disease either, but if you want a REAL stumblingblock to

your flesh, it sounds like one of the more interesting ones.)

So, "take action"- buy your plane tickets, and "trust in God above all else.

Go for it-God will be with you."

Hey- let's apply that advice CONSISTENTLY, if we're going to apply it.]

Regarding this comment you made:

Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again.

That's just it - the Momentus / Vision Quests folks never say or act like they have cornered the market on truth. And all types of feedback are welcome. Feedback after the training is requested. After the training, I left Michigan to my home in New England, and heard little more from any in the group. I have befriended and kept in touch with several - but that is it. That kind of disappointed me from a fellowship point of view, but there is definitely no signs of a pushy culty type of behavior in all of this.

It's great that this is NOT your experience with Momentus.

HOWEVER,

we've heard from some other people, and your experience, while not isolated,

is not universal, either.

A lot of people came out of is as more arrogant than when they entered.

Some people *cough* JAL *cough* are still pushing it as THE answer for people,

even if they're pushing it one-on-one.

And as quoted, some people's idea of "responding to feedback" and "dialogue" is

"attack the dissenter." We have eyewitnesses.

Some people *cough* JAL **cough* have, and continue to treat Momentus as some

sort of initiation rite. Those who haven't taken it are "other" and are inferior in some

way, shape or form.

TWI screwed up a lot of people. But it doesn't have to be the end of their personal growth, and the end of being able to have reasonable trust of people and groups of people. Don't let your bad/evil/difficult experiences live in you in unhealthy ways. I've taken all kinds of hits from all kinds of people and groups - Christian and non Christian - but have miraculously (praise God !) stayed faithful and grown. Right perspective in life can lead to some really nice pastures.

I am not in the business of promoting Momentus or Vision Quest. But I do have an interest in chatting about my experiences in Christian organizations and groups. It's good to compare and contrast and try to figure out how to fellowship without getting screwed. To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs.

Understanding and growth IS what I would like to be all about.

Might I recommend putting a finer magnifying glass on the situation?

While not everyone's had these experiences, enough HAVE that you should be able to

find them without difficulty....

"Bada bing bada bang"! One of those Vic Fontaine DS9's.

Correct!

And I'm glad someone got it early. This is one of the episodes where I can't find the entire

script posted online, so I was going to be limited in what I could quote.

Go, Pam!

*begins doing random ST searches*

Oh, I know which one I want!

"If you guys screw up, I'm the one who gets buried in the desert."

Some links on Momentus....

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_momterri.htm

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/mom_momcofield.htm

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_mombarton.htm

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_momenrobins.htm

And a previous thread on it, called "Momentus."

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4424

Someone asked about Momentus....

Please explain to me what the Whole Momentus thing is all about? Is it specifically a Christian thing, or a pyschological thing? How does it fit in with the Bible?

Love always in Christ,

Joe

Here's a quick primer.

Here's some stuff off previous posts on Momentus.

"These folks are NOT mental health professionals. Their group identifies itself with being a "Christian" based organization. By going the route of religion, they avoid the entire academic approach and operate under the flag of Christianity.

The fact of the matter is they are an offshoot of a group called "Lifespring" which makes no pretense of being Christian....and "Lifespring" is an offshoot of the original "EST" training from the 70's. The founder of Momentus was actually an instructor with "Lifespring", who quit and started his own thing (sound familiar?)...only when he started up Momentus, he put a thin veneer of Christian jargon into the training. The Momentus training is almost identical to the Lifespring training...

The question that should be asked is are the techniques used by Momentus biblical? I see NOTHING in the bible that even hints at this type of experience. Can you see Jesus asking you to sign a hold harmless agreement?...or putting you through sleep deprivation and then screaming at you and ordering you to punch a pillow screaming, "mommy, mommy"???

If a person finds value in Momentus...that's their decision....but let's be honest about it....this is new age psycho therapy...and definitely not Christian in nature. I realize that if a Christian takes Momentus, they can internalize their belief systems into the training...but that's only because of what they bring into the training themselves...The same could be said of the experience of an Ozzy Osbourne concert."

"my only "experience" with momentus was all it took to convince me i wanted nothing to do with it.

i was having lunch with john lynn (something we used to do once a year when he was in the area), and he brought it up to me. this was before any of the bad press, etc. so i asked him to tell me about it. he responded by saying "you'll have to take the class to find out," the same kind of bs we used to say when telling someone to take pfal. i knew right then i'd never have anything to do with it."

"She and her husband invited me to a dinner with two x-twi who were now "trainers" in Momentus (people who apparently sit in the back of the class and take notes & stuff.)

I told all concerned, sure I would like to get together with them but I was not going to take Momentus, nor did I want to go to a dinner promoting it.

We got to dinner and about 10 minutes into it, the dinner became a platform to push me and my spouse into taking the class.

We left.

Later, when the friend of mine tried to push me into the class for about the 12th time and I told her, "NO," she told me I was sick just like Crxig Mxrtindale.

Now, this girl had never been in TWI and all she knew of it was from me, who was her friend. And some SPLINTER people, to whom I had introduced her, while I was checking them out myself. So, were they bashing me because I declined a class they promoted? I dunno. Because my friend never knew, met or heard Crxig teach -- she had no personal experience of him at all. Yet, she was comparing me to Crxig because I was uninterested in another "class".

All I knew was, I was just getting over where the first class I took (PFAL) had taken me.

This girl, when I asked her what version of the Bible she had, said, "green." She did not even know it was King James. This same girl, began to tell me how lousy of a Christian I was, when she graduated from Momentus, the very next week.

I couldn't believe I was the one who introduced her to the avenue that led her to this.

I wrote her a note about the "novice Christian" and if she still felt this way about me in five years, to come back and tell me. Otherwise, I was going to blow her off like the freshly born-again person, one might have the misfortune of sitting next to on a long plane ride. Over zealous, critical and annoying. She pushed Momentus at me again."

"I knew two couples that were friends of mine. Both couples became insufferable to be around for about a month after taking Momentus.

One guy actually said, "If you see the changes in my life.... and would like these same changes ...blah blah blah.." I told him that he was had become one of the least humble people that I had ever been around.

The other couple couldn't seem to keep their word - even though they told me that that was a big deal in Momentus."

"Ya know what I find rather curious re: Momentus and their near rabid insistance that whatever negative effects that you endured while taking their course, it is your doing, your responsibility, etc., ...

... whereas any positive results that you enjoyed as a result of Momentus, they will not contradict you if you give Momentus the praise and credit for said positive results. ... Ie., they don't mind taking the credit, but they do mind taking the criticism."

"She said they teamed her up with a partner, then told her if she quit, the partner could not continue in Momentus training. So, YOU were responsible for the other person being unable to finish the class.

She said although they had Bible verses on the wall and played LOUD good Christian music, little of it had to do with God.

She said she was asked to stand and tell something about herself and whe she was finished she was screamed at that she was lying.

This was to get to "her truth" about herself so she could find the real her.

She was taught that OTHERS people's perceptions of you are WHO you really are. And almost anything you find wrong with another person goes back to your childhood.

This way of thinking became very annoying and helped to push us toward the end of our friendship. For instance, we would be driving and someone would cut me off and I would get angry. And she would constantly tell me, "who are you really mad at? Your father?"

This became her way with everything.

The CLASS was a “weekend” and the girl I knew was gone, and this kind-of robotic know-it-all woman then existed. She judged everyone and thought if she got people to be "honest" she could help them. Even at work, she would flow all her information through her NEW found filter.

She lost her job.

I got her an interview at my company, to help her out. ON THE INTERVIEW, this woman with a maters degree begins to PUSH the Mometus class to MY BOSS. And then began to critique her, bringing up some things I told her in confidence as MY FRIEND."

"I will say this anytime you have sleep deprivation, loud music and people screaming at you it's going to affect you somehow. I put my whole heart into it like I had been taught to do with everything, and boy it was hell. Granted some sins I had comitted had come out which I suppose in essence is good, but I know there was a better way. Shall we say a more Christ-like way? I didn't end up in the hospital as some did but I did end up striking out physically to others which was not my nature. And how devilish is this .... about I assert? Who in the hell was I to judge anyone and thats exactly what it encouraged. Yes it is true that we are not to lie but does that mean we go around and spew our thoughts all over the place? I was told by my husband after Momentus during one of our little chats that he desired to have sex with our church leaders wife. Now did I need that tidbit of truth? I should say not. I know from the experience it led to a lot of disobedience from we women in the church. Also a lot of false prophesy was going around at that time...yuck! So was Momentus evil? I will not speak for others but I wouldn't take it again and you can put that as my ephitat on my gravestone....for those who took it."

"..But instead of an honest dialogue, I got the "haves and have nots" treatment...you remember that one don't you? It's when the whole group exchanges those "knowing looks" with each other and then proceed to avoid answering any questions...I was told "just take the training and you'll see for yourself." Reminded me too much of "just take pfal and you'll see for yourself"...it became obvious to me that either you were an enlightened "Momentus grad", or you were a schmuck...you had to do this to "really" be a part of the group, before they would accept you...

Sorry...that sealed it for me. I voted for individuality instead...told them I wasn't interested and they turned into rattlesnakes towards me...and I WAS told that if I wasn't willing to confess my secret sins to other people, that I "had something to hide"..."

"CES promoted Momentus very heavily in the late 90's after the Board took the class and got tremendous breakthroughs in their own life. However, they backed off when they were told about others taking the class and having severe problems and reactions. My experience with those guys is that they tend to jump on the bandwagon rather quickly if it's something that's beneficial to them without really weighing the consequences.

Also, the promotion was faulty. People were told it would change their lives, that if you wanted to experience breakthroughs and get real about your life, you needed to take this. I even heard of people thinking that it would be like marriage counseling. God help them. There was a subtle undercurrent of, you've got to take this to be more godly, like us. Nothing obvious, like TWI, and nobody bullied anyone into taking it, but for people who were involved with TWI, some of the old mindsets would pop up in those situations."

"In a way Momentus seems to me like "Rodeo School" was with TWI. Same thing with "You gotta go to Gartmore..." and how the whole Chris Geer thing was at one time after POP. This was before CG was declared to be "SATAN," Now folks don't want to be associated with him. Is he "satan" because of HIS satanic ways, or because "leadership" declared him to be?

People were RIDING 2000 POUND BULLS because "leadership" said it was the thing to do. It was like you weren't cool if you didn't go to rodeo school. If you didn't do well at LEAD you were "not Corps material." We HICH-HIKED hundreds of MILES across the country and "NOBODY questioned" the basic sanity of that. If you didn't go WOW, want to go WOW or "go Corps" you were "less than" as a believer.

Years later, after "all that" is over... "you gotta do "Momentus???""

"Momentus is/was clearly a rite of initiation, a tribal ordeal, basically a hazing, for some (or many) of its graduates. The emotional maturity of those individuals is questionable, if only because of that view. To use a sports analogy, it's a tryout to see who makes the first string and who warms the bench. Does "Athletes of the Spirit" sound familiar? Same attitude.

To use a military analogy, it's boot camp, where they break you and then rebuild you. (I've never been to boot camp, but testimony abounds.)

That view would be consistent with the steroidally competitive personalities among certain TWI leadership."

"Oh yeah...I found it rather interesting when they all "ganged up on me"...trying to convince me that I should share all my "secret sins" with them...I figured that they got suckered into sharing THEIR secret sins during the Momentus training and now they were looking for someone stupid enough to follow their lead...No thanks...one cult experience was enough for me.

All of you Christians out there...would Jesus make you sign a "hold harmless" clause before he started "training" you???"

"About 7 years ago, I was approached by some former twiers, all of them connected with CES...their mission was to recruit me into the next Momentus training...they lauded it to the sky..."better than pfal...greatest thing since sliced bread...life changing...you just GOTTA do it"...that's all I heard from these folks...

Of course, my bull.... meter started redlining...so I went onto the internet and checked out everything I could find about Momentus...found out that it was an "offshoot" of LifeSpring which was an "offshoot" of the old EST training...had nothing to do with Christianity until the Momentus folks decided to paint a thin veneer of "bible words" on it and gave it a different name...

In all honesty, I listened to the pros and the cons...weighed it all out and decided..."Are you kidding me?...no chance I'm gonna take that thing"

I even attended the Momentus "public explanation" meeting...or whatever they called it...at the end of the meeting they asked if anyone had any questions...nobody did...until I started talking...I asked them about "LifeSpring", I asked them to explain the points made by the anti-Momentus folks from the internet...I was quickly "hushed up" and taken to a room alone. I guess they didn't want the other "newbies" to hear what I was saying...

The interesting part of this whole process, was that the folks from CES who were trying to recruit me, were as sweet and kind to me as you can imagine...until I informed them that I was not interested in taking Momentus...then they showed their true colors...One woman screamed at me...yes, she screamed..."WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE?"...they became very hostile towards me...of course, that only reinforced my decision to not take Momentus. In fact, when I got home that night, I called JAL on the phone to let him know what I thought of Momentus and his connection to it...we "discussed" the matter for about an hour on the phone. Neither of us had changed our opinion by the end of the conversation...

...and all those CES/Momentus folks who were singing the praises of Momentus?...within a year of taking it...EVERY ONE of their lives were in shambles. One guy in particular...he insisted on confessing to his wife that he had had an affair with another woman 5 years earlier...he told me that because of the Momentus training, he knew that he had to "get honest" with her about this...shortly after his confession, his wife left him and took all the kids with her...his life went into the toilet.

Let me see if I understand the Momentus way of thinking, from this example...The guy decided that to ease his own guilty conscience, he would burden his wife with this devasting information...that way, they would become closer because of the pure honesty of it all...

...I think maybe they should have thrown HIM out of the "lifeboat" first.

"Your life will change over the period of a weekend if you take our training"...Sorry, life just doesn't work that way."

I know one BOD member of S&T in paticular,

who has read these posts and been hurt by what he read.

I have 2 responses, both from the heart.

A) It's about fricking TIME someone at ces/stfi actually FEEL SOMETHING when hearing about

lives being ruined, and doctrine that did damage- that THEY PUSHED.

THEIR doctrines and THEIR practices are hurting people.

Not EVERY person-but does that excuse them?

Are those who ARE hurt "disposable"?

What we've heard so far is SPIN CONTROL.

"Our doctrine is correct."

"By my book."

"Join our group if you really want to know what we teach."

All of that has all the warmth of an infomercial.

If they care about the PEOPLE more than they care about the organization,

some hurt feelings are the LEAST we can expect from this.

Then again, it's not like Momentus grads actually are experts in trying to not-hurt people,

or to fix what they break in a way that doesn't hurt OTHERS more in exchange for making

themselves feel justified.

B) Aw, you were caught damaging people's lives,

or ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH,

and people said some things about you for your laziness or incompetence....

Cry me a river.

You volunteered to LEAD.

That means you put THEM as paramount, not YOU, not the ORGANIZATION.

Every reaction so far seems to be "save the organization!"

rather than

"save the people!"

And the calls for compassion are for compassion towards THE LEADERS,

aka THE ONES THAT CAUSED THE PROBLEMS,

and not THE PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN HURT.

There's something seriously UNCHRISTIAN and MERCANTILE about how this

ORGANIZATION is run.

And it strikes a few of us as FAMILIAR.

"Save the organization-the people are disposable."

"The leaders are always right."

"Know something bad? Better keep it hidden in the lockbox."

They were carefully taught those lessons ONCE,

and it doesnt sound like they've travelled very far from them.

There's been some cosmetic changes, but God help the Christians!

Once again, it's a roll of the dice- a flip of the coin.

Heads, they help you grow, tails, they traumatize you and run your life.

I too must applaud Johns heart - but to call it 'pontificating' I would have to politely disagree. What I read was an outpouring of heart - and yes, we all know that 'sincerity is no guarantee for truth' (to coin a worn out phrase), however the words that were spoken were spoken with love and

were chosen very carefully as to not be offensive.

Thats love in any language in my book...

God bless :)

That, apparently, must include the end, when he addressed the GSC crowd specifically

and said

anonymous people who lack the love and courage to identify themselves in interacting with me.

Thank you for playing, and have a nice day.

This is when the Enterprise grabbed the Romulan cloaking device-

after administering the Vulcan Death Grip to Kirk,

isn't it?

Well, Sharon? Your turn....

Since I looked it up, I can confirm this was it.

Your turn, QT. Pick a movie, then post a quote.

Well lets just say you are older than a 20 year old boy.

Ok, you've got me there...

Interesting to get an older man's perspective. The younger guys have a much different take.

*checks*

But...but...on the GSC, I AM one of the younger guys......

I think it's supposed to be a compliment, albeit crudely put

Y'know, you don't hear too much about the 20-year old women calling us mature men "DILFs"...to them, we're just creepy old men...or invisible

I'm under the impression that it's supposed to be a compliment, albeit crudely put,

as well.

The context I'm familiar with-which, apparently, is different from what the women here seem to have

heard it, is USUALLY from a guy closer in age to the women he's applying it to.

The reason it's supposed to be a compliment of some sort is that it challenges the societal

notion that there is a single image of beauty for women,

and that image is locked into a young women of a specific age and a specific

body type, and as soon as she's had a child, she's no longer attractive or anything like that.

Sort of how the song "Baby Got Back" keeps getting cited as a song glorifying an alternate

standard of beauty than the rail-thin anorexic magazine-cover model.

Also crudely put, but I keep hearing that whenever the song is brought up.

No, I'd hardly call it an anthem of empowerment, but I don't speak for everyone.

So, in other words, the guy finds the woman attractive, and the fact that she's had kids

doesn't change that.

Not that she's old enough to be HIS mom or something.

That's the context I USUALLY hear that about.

On the other hand, that's not what some of the women here have heard,

and "ew."

Ok, let's see.

Firefox AddOns....

Adblock Plus is lots of fun.

Between that and the popup blocker,

it's amazing what I don't see....

CacheIt allows you to view the cache of a page.

Handy if you don't want to access the page directly-or it's down.

Dr.Web antivirus LinkChecker is for the truly cautious.

Don't trust a link? Have it scanned for viruses before you even access it.

Fasterfox allows tweaks for speed.

Flashblock switches all Flash to a button to download,

guaranteeing that annoying animation ads just remain a button.

RedirectRemover speeds linking by jumping to the page at the end,

skipping proxies in-between.

That should be it for what I think EVERYONE would want,

and is currently available.

Others will have their own favourites.

I didn't find it necessary to add a skin.

I'll want to doublecheck any Add-ons I recommend are still being offered,

so let me get back to you on this one.

(I don't think BugMeNot is being offered anymore, for example.)

And no, I won't recommend all the ones I use, just the ones I think a lot of people would like.

[WordWolf in boldface.] ]

Hammer,

Yourself and a few others here at GS have the habit of wildly exaggerating and going over the top to cause destruction.

[caribousam,

Yourself and a few others have the habit of wild accusations and distractions when legitimate charges are made of

harmful practices at ces/stfi.]

Like vultures going in for the kill at any sign of weakness or error.

in a negative light.]

So here is more fodder for you...Yep I went through the pillow exercise at Vision Quest. It was enlightening. It wasn't a cure all for all my foibles. It was a way of opening my eyes to certain unresolved bitterness.

[Thank you for confirming this was a standard practice-there's this "conspiracy of silence", one might go so

far as to call it-from many participants of Momentus.

As if they're hiding an esoteric religious ceremony from outsiders.]

Momentus and Vision Quest and the like are good for some, not so good for others.

and not-so-good for others- those who were at a healthy weight.

And rain is good for some people- like farmers having a drought-

and not-so-good for others- those with too much rain.

Leaving aside the general statements,

the idea of a program that's good for some and HARMFUL for others (let's not pretend it isnt

by using weasel-wording) that is PUSHED-like Momentus was (and IS even after all that)-

is disturbing.

And if you are not disturbed that someone's pushing for your fellow Christians-

for whom Christ died-

to enter a program that will damage some of them considerably,

then SHAME ON YOU.

SHAME ON YOU for caring so little for the well-being of the little children,

the beloved brethren of all ages,

the venerable elders. ]

I don't think you would be able to handle it well.

[Ah, there goes the special caveat.

The program, once again, is not flawed.

It's only for REAL Christians "who can handle it."

vpw used the same excuse when he felt like yelling at people around grounds.

What's next-claiming it's God's Will that Christians be pummelled with psychologically-crippling

stress, and that's why it's in the program?]

Doesn't make you better or worse than me or anybody else. This kind of training just isn't right for you.

[Nice try taking back the caveat.

However, we've seen it LOTS of times already, whenever someone rabidly defends this program.

(Not every defender, just the rabid ones.)

"The program works fine, but if the Christian is flawed, they may break under pressure."

Find me a Christian, anywhere, who is not flawed.

I don't even think you were aware you used the stock defense-

otherwise you wouldn't have tried to take it back.]

I didn't even get a chance to do the fun quotes...

Yes, that was it.

As to this one, I think it's "Symbiosis", the episode with the druggie planet

and the dealer planet.

"Baby Got Back" by Sir Mix-a-Lot? (Guessing WW's clue.)

George

That was it.

(Broke my usual rule about 1985-1986 because I figured it was famous enough.)

Go!

No.

And since I looked it up, I'm disqualified from guessing.

But I can confirm that wasn't it.

Not the movie that contains BOTH quotes.

Was that line really said in "Working Girl"?

So you don't want to know what "Add-Ons" we'd recommend for Firefox?

*looks it up*

I think PB means the movie that also contains the line

"You give me powders, pills, baths, injections, enemas; when all I need is love."

Well, if it's a toss-up, I'll post:

"My anaconda don't want none unless you got buns, hon"

(That's the song, not my own personal sentiments, mind...)