WordWolf

ooo, I didn't know about this. why is it that cult leaders seem to have a penchant for expensive vehicles?

They have different NEEDS.

We know that because that's what he GOT,

and if the "LAW" of Believing is really a "LAW",

then he could ONLY have gotten them by operating it.

"Everyone feeds on death, even vegetarians."

"Computer – this is a Class A Priority Directive: Compute, to the last digit, the value of pi."

"This is the first time I've heard a malfunction threaten us."

"Scotty – here, they use the lights."

"Now, no one has to tell an old Aberdeen pub crawler how to applaud, captain!"

"Die! Die! Die! Ha,ha! Everybody die!"

"Well, Mr. Spock for the next five or six hours we're going to have the happiest crew in space... of course, we won't get much work done."

Someone who knows this MIGHT check in...

"O you're a vampire and baby I'm walking dead.

O you're a vampire and baby I'm walking dead."

"I got the ways and means to New Orleans.

I'm going down by the river where its warm and green.

I'm gonna have a drink, and walk around,

I got a lot to think about. Oh, yeah..."

"They used to dance in the garden in the middle of the night.

They used to dance in the garden in the middle of the night.

They were naked as the day they were born, skin all bone-china white.

O, you're a vampire, and I may never see the light."

amen, rascal. I was married to someone who obsessively read the bible and knew the pfal teaching topics and collaterals by heart. he loved to posture before twi's leadership and show off his ability to "work the word" (read: impress people of authority with his ability to handle twi doctrine). he has very little love in his heart for God or anyone. he used the "word" (read: twi doctrine) to control me, hurt me, and impress other people. the pharisees who Jesus confronted were masters of scripture, but they were men of the flesh. people like that are pretty common in religion, it seems.

in my experience, the more someone says they know spiritual things, especially regarding how things should be done, the less love they have for God.

Seems doubly-true at the GSC, for that matter.

"If you meet the mog in the road, kill him!"

(Based on the old saying,

"If you meet the Buddha in the road, kill him")

quote: Some people came to fellowship just to get out of the house. Yeah, the leadership screwed up but good gravy! I think of what was going on in the trenches. It makes me wonder if some people ever really got born again. I personally saw some people that had been around for years and only knew the first three or four verses of the white retemories, and that was stretching their mind. Evidence was present that the last time they spoke in tongues was in the 12th session of the first class they took.

I didn't know too many people who didn't SIT or like to in manifestations, but, yeah, we were a social bunch. In the early 90s twig cordos started saying "this is not a social hour". That worked 'great'; it sent the message that if you want to be "social" you have to go to the unbelievers. Yeah, some people played church, but even believers need bonding time.

It seems the more time went by the more critical leadership became. And now they have their "household of Zion" and it sounds like a pretty lonely place without us "social people" there.

I think some posters just like to rub TWIs face in the fact that the LCM regime that kicked them out of TWI has basically failed. They don't really blame TWI for every problem in their lives, they just say up yours TWI in as many variations as they can think of.

[One of the good things was when we actually HAD FUN. Removing the fun from things is STUPID.

Those who think twi is better without the fun, but with the "retemories" are invited to go back in.

Hey, they currently have "retemories" but no fun-that should be perfect...)]

[WordWolf again.]

I will qualify the following post by alerting you that it is an observation and an opinion. Some of you will be offended and even incensed to anger

[i will qualify my reply-it's MY observations and opinions. I wasn't emotional, perhaps you will be.

My first observation is the polarizations at the beginning, as if

"You may agree with me, or you can be emotional and offended!"

I disagree with this characterization, and it's not conducive to civil communication.]

Fellowship can be centered around anything. I remember after some of the fellowships, I would listen to what people talked about and by paying attention to it, I would be able to tell what some of the needs were and what was on their heart. It was rarely the Word of God.

[it's nice to hang out with people and not have to "perform". We were far from authority,

but the closer you got to twi's thumb, the more time you spent UNDER it, thus, rare were the moments you

were allowed to be human and not Super-Believer.]

Some people came to fellowship just to get out of the house. Yeah, the leadership screwed up but good gravy! I think of what was going on in the trenches. It makes me wonder if some people ever really got born again.

[in a few cases, I imagine you didn't know much ABOUT the people you're criticizing.

I was told, years of committed believer-ship into things, that what I consider one of my LEAST logical moments

was the first time someone (someone INTELLIGENT) saw me as "serious."

They misinterpreted my clothing and everything ELSE I ever did.

Perhaps you're doing the same...]

I personally saw some people that had been around for years and only knew the first three or four verses of the white retemories, and that was stretching their mind.

[God never required we all memorize verses. JESUS was required, and I have nothing against it.

I did it myself. I still recite verses. (Check my posts.) However, different Christians have different STRENGTHS.

I Corinthians 12: 12-26

" 12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it."

The MEANING of those verses shouldn't escape you. Memorizing verses is not THE HEIGHTS

of what we do-if it was, there'd be a verse for it.

Instead, we have verses like I Corinthians 4:2

"Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful."]

Evidence was present that the last time they spoke in tongues was in the 12th session of the first class they took.

[And the verse saying this was a tragedy is....?]

For some time now something has been eating at me regarding this site.

[Free thought, differences of opinion, basic humanity, and, sometimes, human flaws

can TRAUMATIZE ex-wayfers. Some of us, however, love the FREEDOM.]

Some people in here deserve each other. The victims, the hatemongers and the unbelievers.

[Translation:

"You can agree with me or be a victim, a hatemonger or an unbeliever."

No definitions provided, just pronouncements like lcm used to do.

(May still do them, for all I know.)]

Like John Juedes! Some in here actually consider him as an authority.

[Or, you know, we paid attention and actually AGREED WITH HIM, using our abilities to REASON.

Saying we consider him an "authority" suggests we just accepted what he said was true without

checking it for ourselves.

Sorry, did that in twi, when I was young and foolish. I have no desire to repeat mistakes.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."]

I've listened to his interview and read his spew on believing.

[Translation:

"I didn't like what he said on believing, so it's error and 'spew.'"]

The fact that some people rallied around him as an authority is distasteful to say the least.

[Or we used our REASON and AGREED with him. The idea that thinking people could refute the so-called

"LAW" of Believing is so repugnant to some, apparently, that they have to fog that by mischaracterizing

that process by pretending the OTHERS are the ones that didn't do the thinking.

"Rallied around him", or "agreed and thanked him for saying it" are 2 different things.

We don't need "authorities" here, nor do we WANT any.]

People in here want to blame leadership for their problems. What a crock.

[Rarely were my problems the result of vpw, lcm, or their trained "leaders."

Others, they were, very often, some traumatically.

Claiming it isn't true, that's the "crock".

Claiming it's true of me would likewise be a "crock", since it didn't happen to me.]

I remember the Advanced class '78 that LCM referred to in VP and Me. VPW offered an open session of questions on any topic and somebody got up and asked about 'needs and wants parallel'. It was a great question....to ask before arriving to the Advanced Class.

For the next several years, I took the foundational class several times and each time paid close attention to the topic. I committed myself to researching the words 'needs' and 'wants'. It took a while. A few years before I finally got it. By the time I did, I wasn't in the Corps any more and I had to just enjoy the privilege of knowing. In '84, I went into the 14th Corps. I must have asked about 100 people throughout the year if they understood it or could explain it. NO ONE COULD. That was scary and I had to watch myself to make sure I didn't get egotistical about it.

[And the subject, as presented,

was NEVER CHANGED,

mainly because to correct it would require REMOVING IT.

"Understanding it" meant rationalizing things to match the teaching, but reality failed to conform to it.

That's why almost all of us have discarded it-it doesn't work.

PRETENDING it works isn't quite the same.

RATIONALIZING and HIDING the counter-evidence doesn't change that.

So, you succeeded in coming up with a beautiful, elaborate explanation which still fails to match reality.

Please make sure you don't get "egotistical about it."

While John Juedes was finding out why 'believing' was being taught wrong and while Karl Kahler was documenting the snapping of a of a cult, I was trying to work the material. I'll tell you right now! Believing without God is stupid and I never thought it was part of the routine or doctrine.

[You STILL don't get it. I'll make it simple, since it's been discussed before and been made

very clear by others.

Trusting God- good thing.

This abstract "believing" thing- non-Scriptural.

Applying this abstract "believing" thing to trusting God is MISLABELLING trusting God.]

I knew people who acted like God wasn't needed.

[Having learned that from vpw...]

Some of them are probably in here and lauded to the heavens for their insight of TWI.

[Translation:

"Since I can't name any examples, I shall pretend the posters here have examples of what I'm saying,

and blame them for having non-existent examples and pretend I supported my claim.]

I remember an incident where some guy volunteered to do some job because 'He could do all things through Christ... and VPW told him to stick his elbow in his ear." VP recognized how out to lunch and unqualified the kid was to handle the task and he knew that it would take some experience in the field.

[Making a bs claim vpw didn't like=wrong.

Making a bs claim vpw liked= right.

Making a bs claim and you're vpw=people commit themselves to researching your words until they

"finally get it" and it doesn't look like bs to them.]

Looking at 'Research Geek's" Top Ten List of Doctrinal Errors' I don't see any listed from VPW. All are from LCM. I find that odd.

[That's one list, and an ancient one. We have more comprehensive lists, entirely

composted of vpw stuff.

Want to know why Research Geek's list mostly covers lcm? Ask RG.]

Looking at the list, I can see the twist in the doctrine to the point that it led to more mahem and destruction for TWI. Historically, when a group thinks and teaches that they are so elite, there is a downfall just over the next hill.

[Yeah, "twi was great under vpw, and lousy under lcm." Of course.]

Some of you in the cafe are so vehemently against TWI, it makes me wonder if you even love The Word any more. I asked myself a few months ago, "Self, when was the last time you read the Bible?" and I didn't like the answer. Then, I took inventory of my life and I didn't like the fruit, or lack thereof.

[That's a shame. I still read it, and I'm against twi.

Mind you, some people are no longer Christians, largely because of evils done in God's name

in twi by twi staffers, starting with vpw and lcm. I blame those who did it.]

Without God and His Word, we have nothing. Just empty greif with gnashing of teeth. We've just about lost our country and the freedom to speak Bible to anyone.

[if that was true, you couldn't say this here- but you can even do so, knowing this isn't a Christian messageboard.

However, there's no penalties for using the Bible to state your opinion.

The only caveat is that not everyone will AGREE WITH YOU.

Isn't the First Amendment to the Constitution a nice thing?]

This is disturbing enough to me that I've made up my mind to speak up.

[You've spoken up. Congrats.

Perhaps you will read the replies and consider that what you're thinking on is INCOMPLETE INFORMATION.

You may not know everything you think you know.

(Hint: That's usually true in life.)]

In closing, I'll share with you a key regarding needs and wants parallel. A child rarely has to ask for what it 'needs'. We need to

'want' what God says we 'need'.

[There's still no verses that say God wants us to make our "wants parallel with our needs."

That's a twi doctrine/dogma.

Understanding THAT is key.]

I took and helped run PFAL dozens of times, took the intermediate class at least a half dozen times, advanced class twice, went to advances, taught at fellowship at least a hundred times, set up study nights, read all the books over and over (except rise and expansion, what a snooze that was) and filled dozens of notebooks with study notes... so f-ing what? I don't see all that activity makes anyone more knowledgeable of the Word. all I became knowledgeable of was Way doctrine. I can hate twi and love God. the two are not mutually exclusive.

Nicely put.

I was just about to wish you a happy 29th!

"Everyone feeds on death, even vegetarians."

"Computer – this is a Class A Priority Directive: Compute, to the last digit, the value of pi."

"This is the first time I've heard a malfunction threaten us."

"Scotty – here, they use the lights."

"Now, no one has to tell an old Aberdeen pub crawler how to applaud, captain!"

I rarely go to theaters. (Last time was to see "The Passion".) Sudo and I like to watch movies at home, and the kids rent a couple at our Blockbuster runs. How do you know if they are "direct to video"? Not trying to "defend/justify" my mistake, but asking honestly.

Not a problem, though, really, cause if I screw up, it's just a game, and we can go back to where we left off. No harm done.

Suda

How can you tell?

Well, if you don't know, it's easy.

You google the name in quotes, and "imdb" in quotes.

Then you look up its imdb listing. (Internet movie database.)

If it's a regular movie, its name will be written normally.

If it was direct-to-video, like, say, that recent Doctor Strange movie,

it will have "(V)" written after it.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0910865/

And if it was a video-game only, the parentheses will have "(VG)" instead.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0395274/

If there's still any question, look up its wikipedia entry. Even if it's only a "stub",

it should include its release year and whether it was a theater release or whatever.

Please note direct-to-video's excluded more out of obscurity, since distribution's limited

on those. We may not have even HEARD of the movie...

I hope this one isn't TOO tough for this crowd...

"I got the ways and means to New Orleans.

I'm going down by the river where its warm and green.

I'm gonna have a drink, and walk around,

I got a lot to think about. Oh, yeah..."

"They used to dance in the garden in the middle of the night.

They used to dance in the garden in the middle of the night.

They were naked as the day they were born, skin all bone-china white.

O, you're a vampire, and I may never see the light."

I'm confident enough to go ahead and post the next one.

This is more recent than most of the songs posted, so it's unusually

difficult for a lot of the people here.

But, I'll give it a shot.

Besides, I have the guitar riff for this one stuck in my head, now.

"I got the ways and means to New Orleans.

I'm going down by the river where its warm and green.

I'm gonna have a drink, and walk around,

I got a lot to think about. Oh, yeah..."

Gee, vpw used a term with a sexual connotation for something he was doing

that supposedly had nothing to do with sex.

What a coincidence.

It seems to me that what the corps was billed as depended heavily upon what

was calculated as being the approach to interest you,

with the actual content being incidental, if that.

Are you more an academic?

Then the corps is a place to study directly on-grounds, and learn more than

is covered locally, with in-depth Greek study and classes that don't leave

the grounds.

Are you more a hands-on person?

Then the corps is the place to learn practical application of Biblical principles,

for use in everyday life.

Are you more a conspiracy theorist?

Then the corps is a place to learn the secrets behind the news, and what's

going to happen in the US soon.

Are you excited about being in twi?

Then the corps is a place to learn to perform feats unattainable by the rest

of the world.

Are you devoted to the idea that vpw has received the greatest understanding

of Scripture in 2000 years?

Then the corps is a place to learn at the feet of the master.

In each case, what you GOT was exactly the same- but the goal was to get

you to sign up and pay your tuition more than realistically prepare you for

what would be covered-which didn't approach ANY of those sales pitches

(except small parts of the first 2.)

Reminds me of those old commercials, supposedly of some Iron Curtain country,

where the "model" comes out in "different" outfits, which are the same

outfits with the announcer giving them different names

("day-vear!" "Evening-vear!")

In wayworld,

disagreement never exists, and history gets rewritten to arrange this.

Old story.

You committed an assault on your local moglet,

and the entire thing was just dropped, of course.

Man, if I had a nickel for every time I broke a chair over the head of a moglet,

I could drown in them.... <_<

It occurs to me that I can do a "connection" thingy here:

Who knows how long this will last

Now we've come so far, so fast

But, somewhere back there in the dust

That same small town in each of us

(extra credit if you know the connection)

This is the End of the Innocence,

title cut for the Don Henley album of the same name.

(I liked it, but liked the previous album more.)

I don't know the connection, but if I were to guess,

I'd say Bruce Hornsby was somehow connected with Poco,

since he contributed the melody for this song.

(If you compare the melody for "Valley Road" and

"End of the Innocence" in your head, you'll see the

connection.) And in all fairness, it was Raf, long ago,

who told me Hornsby contributed it.

Yep WW, saw "Bram Strokers Dracula" but didn't remember... I was just in awe of the audio cuz I'd just gotten my first surround sound when that came out and it was awesome man!

I keep misremembering Keanu's dialogue as including him saying "Whoa"

in the movie, even though they didn't go THAT far-including him was enough

of a shock.

Anthony Hopkins as Van Helsing stole all his scenes, IMHO. He played a blase

scientist, jaded to the horrors of what he dealt with, to the hilt.

The quintessential scene he did, for me, was when he was eating dinner.

I included the quote above. He's eating a very rare steak, which is bloody

as he's eating, and he casually discusses Lucy's end while eating.

Eventually, Winona Ryder's character runs from the table and throws up

in reaction.

As for the current movie, I'm hoping some new faces wander in.

I'm really not that strong on most movies-

rather, the ones I've seen, I tend to remember fairly well.

It's been done before, but I don't know if it was more than once.

"Everyone feeds on death, even vegetarians."

"Computer – this is a Class A Priority Directive: Compute, to the last digit, the value of pi."

Wasn't all this supposed to be a BIBLE program, how to apply the Bible and apply Christian principles?

Thank you, but unless they're on CD, I still have the cassette.

Matthew 5:29-30 (NASB)

"29"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

30"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell."

Here Jesus warned them-and us- of the dangers and severity of sin.

Jesus warned us that-if something is an occasion to sin for us, makes it likely we will sin-

we should GET RID OF IT, we should REMOVE IT FROM OUR LIVES.

If drinking leads to poor judgement, which leads to sin in a person's life

(like drinking and having one-night stands and anonymous sex),

then the person is to STOP DRINKING and avoid sin.

If going to a certain building leads to a person sinning, they are to AVOID THE BUILDING

and avoid sin.

What's the opposite of this?

Instead of taking steps to avoid sin, that would be taking steps to make sin EASIER,

to FACILITATE sin.

For example, setting up a specific location to sin (like an office or motorcoach),

furnishing such a location for sinning (like, say, with alcohol or drugs),

and so on.

Much of sin-especially the sin that hurts others- is based around steps of sin where

one makes decisions one after another, each leading to the sin.

If one quotes George Carlin, it becomes easier to see steps and decision points.

Speaking of his Catholic upbringing, and its view of sin to him as a youth,

"It was a sin to WANT to feel up Ellen,

it was a sin to PLAN to feel up Ellen,

it was a sin to figure out a PLACE to feel up Ellen,

it was a sin to TAKE Ellen to the place to feel her up,

it was a sin to TRY to feel her up,

and it was a sin to feel her up.

There were six sins in one feel, man!"

Some will miss the point, likely, and consider this just another excuse to hate

the Catholic Church. The point, however, is that each decision, and each action,

led up to the sin. At any point, that sinner could have stopped before the sin

was committed. Similarly, an adulterer- or an adulterer who teaches his students

that having sex with him isn't wrong- has MANY decision points before the actual

sin takes place- but he chooses to embrace the sin anyway.

On the other hand, Jesus would tell him to discard any item, any location, any

action, that leads to sin. It's not so hard at some of the smaller steps.

"Sin no more." Ok, how?

Start by eliminating plans to sin, and continue by making plans for alternatives,

then carrying them out.

Oh, and thanks for highlighting Matthew, those verses were worth discussing!

TG explains that some of his posts were removed from Rick Ross's website.

I remembered some posts being removed after I found them pecking around one day. If you read just a few posts down on the thread that I started and linked to in my post above, one can see that, indeed, the posts were removed from Ross's site. WordWolf kindly used the Google "cache" option to pull up and post the "forbidden posts", which TG has said that were his and were the ones removed.

Technically, I posted SOME of them-about a page's worth.

I probably left out a lot.

I'm not sure where the problem is... Maybe y'all did not actually read the thread? :unsure:

Probably hadn't read it all yet, anyway.

They probably wanted to start with the link, then didn't think to scroll down and see if we'd discussed

how it died later.

TG, here's a cheat sheet to the cafe:

Guide for New Arrivals to the Cafe

What is TWI?

OK, let's try "Bram Stoker's Dracula" with Gary Oldman.

George

I think of it more as Anthony Hopkins as Van Helsing,

featuring Gary Oldman as Dracula, and so on.

But yes, that's this one.

I figured posting my 3 favourite quotes would make it obvious.

Since you narrowed it down to Dracula, I didn't have to make the quote the one about the

children of the night.

Your turn, George!

Belle, the second link (on the other thread) does not work for me, either. I get a 404 not found.

It worked when she posted it,

but apparently, when it got traffic coming from THIS site,

they deleted it.

That's why I revived some of the data and posted it directly further down the page.

That's what Belle thanked me for posting.

Personally,

I much preferred "Diane and the Ephesians" to the "Spiritual Shades" album.

At ROA '88, I bought every nonofficial thing I could get my hands on.

Not that I was avoiding the official things, but I could buy those ANYTIME.

Turns out I underestimated how hard it would be for me to get them the

next year-which was after lcm drew the line in the sand, and virtually all

the sellers took off.

"Everyone feeds on death, even vegetarians."