WordWolf

I'd say it would be very hard for anyone with any common sense to come to the conclusion that Leuchter's findings are FLAWED, as you claim they are. Why? Because basic laws of physics would have to be broken to support the exterminist's point of view for one to come to the conclusion that Leuchter's findings are likewise flawed.

You'd say a great deal. Some of it, at times, is sensible to the average, literate adult.

Leuchter supposedly wanted to test a surface for the presence of a poison that was present over 40 years before.

As I learned back in high school, one problem with poison gas is that it is highly reactive-that's why it's poisonous.

(That's why I can clear out chlorine fumes by introducing an open flame, which forces a chemical reaction

called burning-but technically is OXIDATION, meaning I force it to react and combine with oxygen.

Nobody had to tell me I could do it, either.)

Given 40 years, the amount of chemical present somewhere would be extremely small, due to the passage of

40 years, and re-reaction at the microscopic level like always happens.

Given exposure to the elements (WEATHER), 40 years of exposure will dilute the presence of any chemical.

Given rebuilding, some of the bricks that had been exposed to poison had been moved, and some bricks that

were NOW there were introduced later and were never exposed to poison because they hadn't been around

when the poison gas was released.

So, Leuchter, who acted on his own without permission and desecrated a grave,

took some bricks- which we would call STEALING FROM A MONUMENT.

He either knew that he might have taken the wrong bricks, and if they were the right bricks, they might have

been exposed to poison and been purged of it in the DECADES since due to weather and time,

or he did not.

If he DID know, then he deliberately engaged in fraud.

If he did NOT know, he's just as incompetent as even one of his own history revisionists called him.

Then, he sent the "sample" (which was grossly below standards for a sample when I was in HIGH SCHOOL)

to a lab. He then made an amazingly elementary "mistake"-

he didn't tell them he wanted the SURFACE tested. So, they pulverized the sample and tested the AGGREGATE.

Either he knew this would ruin the sample-which means he engaged in fraud-

or he did not know-which means, again, he's an incompetent.

The lab took the sample, and judged the aggregate as having no discernable level of poison.

Of course, if there HAD been discernable levels, they would have been on the SURFACES, and the AGGREGATE

diluted what little there was further yet.

So, the "sample" might have been from bricks that hadn't been AT the facility when people were getting gassed.

If they HAD been, they'd been exposed to time and weather for DECADES.

Whatever was left was then DILUTED by combining the exposed surfaces with the unexposed majority of the

brick. The presence of poison was not detected.

DUUUUUHHHHH.

If one pulled aside people from the labs in my old HIGH SCHOOL, they could have made the same conclusions

the rest of us do- the sample was so badly compromised that the results won't tell you ANYTHING if they come back

negative-and the chance of the sample coming back positive after exposure to poison and then the conditions this

sample was exposed to is almost nil.

It doesn't take a LOT of science to understand that-a high schooler's understanding of practical chemistry is enough.

However,

WTH's understanding of "basic laws of physics" gets invoked here. WTH thinks the understanding of all this

contradicts the "basic laws of physics."

What results is a pastiche of parrotting back whatever Leuchter said,

and lots of insults to anyone who disagrees.

=========

Frankly,

the last time I saw someone trying to misdirect this badly was when someone claimed their doctrine

was correct, and for it to not work,

"God would have to change the laws of the universe."

Now, we have "basic laws of physics would have to be broken."

SSDD.

i am alittle confused about the sticky topic, cannot find it. sarckat

It's labeled as "pinned". It's what's normally CALLED a "sticky", just labeled differently.

The title is "Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe" and it's up above the other topics here.

You can click on it here:

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913

As I remember it went from $65.00 t0 $85.00 somewhere in 74-75 I paid $65.00 which was a sizable amount of money in those days for me. But when you consider that you got five hardbound books and a syllabus in binder and a one year subscription to The Way Magazine. In addition to the taped material thats pretty cheap. I don't think at that point they made that much off each student as the books got cheaper or nonexistent and the price went up they did better on the profit end I'm sure. Either way I think it was money well spent in terms of the benifit to me over the years. Despite the way things turned out and the fact that everything was not as beneficial as I once maybe thought it was today, I still feel it was a bargin.

$65 for 5 hardbound books, syllabus, 1-year subscription.

The books were cheap and easy to produce (so long as you have access to the reproductive facilities),

and these were not big textbooks-they were little novel-sized things, with not much print on a page.

The largest have pages with 1/2 the text of a standard textbook on it, with fewer pages than in a standard textbook.

The expenses were all covered in-house-

-The supposed author was not needed to be paid separate royalties

-No license fees were ever paid for the material from other sources

-the printing's stages were ALL done in-house and thus only cost (once the machines are paid for) were a factor

-distribution was handled FREE by us locals

-limited amounts of tapes were produced, and used over, and over, and over, showing signs of wear no normal

tapes would show

The costs to print up all the materials for a $65 class were less than $20.

The RETAIL PRICE at a bookstore for the $65 class would be under $40 in the year you took it,

and that's adding PROFIT of various kinds-for distributor, seller, author, publishing company.

They made a considerable amount per class, if 6 people were paying students per class.

====

Mind you, whether or not you feel like you got something useful for the money is a separate issue-

they were WELL-PAID for what you received, whether or not you got a benefit.

(And good for you-you feel you benefitted from it.

Me, I feel I got some benefit as well.)

Didn't Jesus have a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes?

May I challenge you to show from scripture that teaching and preaching God's Word was supposed to ALWAYS be a freebee?

you may challenge me to that....

Right after YOU show from Scripture (The Bible) that Jesus "had a horn o'plenty passed around to collect money for his enterprise

and give the people an opportunity to give above their temple tithes."

(Or EQUIVALENT, of course- if you can find it but it's called something else or shaped differently,

of course, that would still count.

You first....

That's something OUR CULTURE teaches with a vengeance but I don't see that same attitude in Eastern culture. Ministering is just as much (and much more) an honorable service to perform for someone as window cleaning or waitressing, so WHY not expect cash for it? In Eastern culture people know that they owe MORE for receiving the teaching and preaching God's Word than for receiving food, clothing, or entertainment.

I observe business as a hobby. I see how the SIZES of the tips for people like waitresses are a voluntary thing, but it's still considered dishonorable to stiff them after the have worked for us in service. Not so in our culture for the service of teaching and preaching God's Word in our broken culture, severely broken on this account. Why should a preacher not be able to charge for his services, but it’s fine for a plumber or a tree trimmer to do so?

A plumber gets charged by the job- or works for a company that does, and receives a fixed salary from them

for doing so.

A waiter or waitress' salary is minimal. They work with the expectation that they will receive tips for good work.

Therefore, as most people would consider it, to skip tipping them is to deprive them of part of their livelihood.

(Don't like it? There's places where the tip is automatically deducted and assigned to them, and you

don't have to calculate.

Still don't like it? Eat at Mc Donald's. No tipping expected.)

A minister can receive a salary, and that's fine with me. His church either gets a tithe, or survives on donations.

One or the other is EXPECTED in our society.

Expecting a "tip" for preaching is a lot like expecting a "tip" for voting in the Senate.

We call that a "bribe."

Both men already GOT a salary-a living wage they can support their family on.

Preaching is part of the JOB of a minister- a basic expectation for all ministers unless specified otherwise.

Voting on bills is EXPECTED for Congressmen.

In our culture if a preacher delivers good feeling to a churchgoer it’s not considered stealing to walk out of the church “tipping” that preacher nothing or for contributing far less than what the preacher’s service provided. We will willingly pay $100 for one hour’s good feeling on a psychiatrist’s couch or for many other kinds of counseling, but not for preaching?

I have no doubt that you believe vpw's dismissal of Psychiatrists as "give a good feeling"

is a fair and accurate summary of their job. However, it's woefully ignorant.

A Psychiatrist must go to MEDICAL SCHOOL, and is a MEDICAL DOCTOR.

That's why they have "MD" at the end of their name.

A Psychiatrist is trained in both medicine and in Psychology, which is years of training all by itself.

You either spoke on the field of someone who spent 4 years in college, 2 years or more in Medical School,

and then 2 or more years in internship before BEGININNG their career lacking a basic understanding of their

training,

or knew all that and dismissed most of a decade's work casually.

A Psychiatrist doesn't just sit on a couch so you can get a good feeling.

Both they and LICENSED Psychologists spend years in training so they can offer more than that.

If sitting there and making appreciative noises was all it took, every Theater major in college would be

able to get a Psychology license upon graduation.

"COUNSELING" contains the word "counsel". That means they're supposed to be offering COUNSEL.

(and every PARTLY-competent one DOES).

I'm not going to try and summarize what type of counsel they offer.

In the case of a Psychiatrist, however, it's often for more severe cases, since a Psychiatrist is called in

when someone requires the use of Psychatric medication to function properly in society.

(That's so people don't go into violent fits in public, or hallucinations, or suicidal depressions, or any

of dozens of other things.) They have to monitor the effects of the medication, the non-effects,

the other symptoms not affected by medication, drug interactions with everything from what's perscribed

to the advil they took for a headache last night, all while still listening and offering professional counsel.

THAT's why we pay a Psychiatrist by the hour.

It’s our culture that’s broken on this matter of insisting that teaching and preaching God's Word MUST be always free of monetary charge. We should be willing to pay MORE for that.

As an educational exercise, might some dutiful poster search out HOW it is that our culture has developed such a screwy hang-up like this? I might throw out one possibility: Elmer Gantry.

It's our poster's expectation that this is what's broken.

Real ministers make a decent salary.

And they don't do it for the money.

Or for cars, motorcycles, planes, or free labour at their home.

And they cover their shopping trips from their salary, not from the collection plate the church gets.

If a supposed minister doesn't find that sufficient, he is in the WRONG line of work, for he has

let a love of money interfere with his love for God and God's people.

A minister making enough to satisfy all his needs and his family's needs

(food, home, transportation, education for kids, clothing, basic entertainment and so on)

should not feel the need for ONE PENNY MORE.

He should be focusing on DOING HIS JOB.

BTW,

a lot of you probably don't know or don't remember......

....when twi finally put up a website,

the first thing of any substance they put up was the Terms and Conditions.

There was nothing of substance-even twi-level- but there were elaborate warnings

to not use the material that wasn't even there.

Is it a matter of the lawyers governing the ministry,

or did they really think the most important part of what they had to offer online

was the Terms and Conditions?

If it's the latter, I AGREE. There's nothing else useful on their site.

In other news,

the only other time I saw an elaborate warning like that was on a DIFFERENT site

with delusions of grandeur and ridiculous content.

Quite a bit.

for one.. the lab he sent the "samples" to, he didn't tell them it was surface contamination that they should test for. They wouldn't have crushed the samples. It diluted any trace of cyanide to probably thousandths of what a surface examination would have revealed.

I posted a few other legitimate claims:

after that many years, humidity and the elements would make it quite unlikely to find ANY cyanide.

Some of the bricks were from a museum, a recreation, and were never involved in gassing to begin with..

Some may have been exposed to water in the spring, for decades..

some of his argument depended on finding levels of the chemical that would be needed for delousing, which would be a lot more than a level that would prove lethal to a human being.

The facts suggest that zyklon B would be a poor choice for delousing, but a rather good choice for gassing people.

Besides all of this.. a person can argue the science all they want.. I still ask,

"what about the shoes"..

Personally.. I think when some people are confronted with man's darker nature, they kinda flip out..

These are pretty elementary mistakes for Leuchter to make.

Back in HIGH SCHOOL, I would have gotten in trouble for making mistakes this basic in a lab.

Then again, my high school lab teachers had a higher standard for accuracy than Leuchter has.

They have titles, which reflect the study they put in, and that they know what they claim they know.

That's why the don't make amateurish mistakes.

(Mind you, even many amateurs would avoid such mistakes.)

Then again,

perhaps Leuchter DID know a CAREFUL analysis would risk disproving his thesis.

So,

either Leuchter is a barely-competent amateur, who made elementary mistakes that were easily

avoided, and lacks the wit to acknowledge them when raised and said

"Wait-they're right. This would compromise the results."

or

Leuchter knew FULL WELL in advance that he selected methods that were flawed,

in order to deliberately obtain flawed results,

which means he did NOT want ACCURATE results, but preferred FLAWED results.

Either way,

WTH's pinned his ideology on this.

It's as foolish as pinning one's full understanding of the Bible on a sermonizer,

or a homileticist, or something.

This may be a dumb question,but is there anything out there that refutes Leuchter's results,or methodology,other than he didn't have the credentials?....

Just reviewing WTH's last post to me.

WTH STILL isn't responding to lots of things posters here posted- like video footage and so on,

and still pretending he isn't responding to them.

I bet this convinces HIM he's responding to it or something.

He's also under some misimpression-or considers it appropriate-

to pretend anyone said this was a great scholarly study here.

That's one of his pieces to change the subject when I pointed out what HE posts is what he can

claim credit for, not discussions happening somewhere else.

We're having A discussion here. (What's next, posting to announce he's not posting?)

This discussion is here-which is not specialized as a Holocaust, history, or science board.

Therefore, it's not a bunch of experts posting here.

That having been said, the amount of information (this is the dawn of the Information Age)

available for laymen (like me, WTH, Leuchter, Hamm, and simonzelotes, for example)

is considerable. Most of us need not be experts to look over historical evidence, or

claims of such, to see if they are reliable or sound.

I agree, the numbers certainly don't matter a whole lot, especially when historians with credible reputations themselves can't agree on the exact "number." Heck I say, make up a number yourself - you might end up and be a whole lot closer to the truth then they are. Where I happen to disagree with you though is that there is currently no attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. Even if there were such an attempt, why should we be involved?

Funny the way you can re read through this thread and notice something you missed earlier. We are talking about the holocaust, an event from over 60 years ago. I presented a couple (out of many) of Hitler's statements regarding what he thought of Jews and what he was going to do to them. All of this discussion has been about this event, and in an answer to a post of mine, you say you disagree with me, saying that there is currently no attempt to exterminate the Jewish people.

Currently? I never said anything about whether or not there were any current attempts to exterminate them. You are disagreeing with me on something I never said anything about. Or is that an admission from you that the Holocaust was an attempt to exterminate the Jewish people? After all, that is what this thread is about.

Has anybody else done what I did...go over this threads and notice something that they missed?

[several paragraphs that ignore Lifted Up's post]

Feel free to click on the arrow and check it out.

WTH quoted Lifted Up's post, which pointed out WTH claimed someone was talking about

some CURRENT attempts to exterminate the Jews.

That means he's claiming he's addressing Lifted's post.

WTH then went on for several paragraphs, completely unrelated to Lifted's post.

Someone's eager to change the subject and PRETEND some things were never

posted-by himself and commented on by WTH.....

but then again, someone's eager to PRETEND some things never happened, and some

people were never imprisoned and subsequently executed WHILE in prison...

There's a systematic pattern here for someone...

emigration, not extermination?

Did you miss one of the earlier quotes I posted from the leader of that Third Reich? Or do you need more of them? (I can oblige)...

When Hell asked Hitler what he intended doing if he ever had full freedom of action against the Jews, his response was:

"If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will be my first and most important job. As soon as I have power, I shall have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink. They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible. As soon as they are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!"

That really sounds like all he wanted to do was ship them out, eh?

Since WTH claims he's not skipping over anything, then he didn't miss your earlier quotes.

He saw them and made the deliberate decision to not respond, disregard them,

and otherwise pretend they don't even exist.

However, he expects us to adopt his own doctrines, even to the point of pretending there are no flaws

in what he's presenting.

It's called "a conditioned response".

They would say "boy that's great" if the new theme was "Ring around the Rosie".

Right.

Anything other than enthusiasm probably still marks you for further investigation

by what's left of the WayGB.

I've recognized the song from the first quote, and I can sing the first quote.

I can't name the song, though.

Haven't heard it in a while, either.

Maybe the next hint will trip a memory. Or I'll cudgel one up. Or someone else will get it.

You know, if I were an innie and saw that, I think that would be the last straw, my heart would have sank.

Absolutely no imagination, the same old same old rehashed again for the umpteenth time.

Are you so totally uninspired? Such a lack of imagination? Such a lack of heart for any people that are left?

Its actually insulting.

I would take one look at that and realize we now have a dead ministry.

When they made a year "Power for Abundant Living" the FIRST time,

I was IN and I thought that was horribly unoriginal....

especially since there seemed NO CONNECTION between the supposed "theme"

and anything going on that year.

That was what-1987?

=======

"OUR" Power for Abundant Living.

Guess we can officially scratch GOD ALMIGHTY from twi's considerations.

It's not HIS Power, it's THEIRS.

They're still claiming a "founding" of 1942, when any 1942 origin is purely imaginary.

Finally figured out why they did a night where attendance at hq was MANDATORY-

they took photos of the not-empty auditorium and are going to milk those for a decade.

And they still talk about those "international countries".

twi has always been pretty good at inflating self-images,

and horrible at comforting those brought low.

Those with big egos were seen by vpw as assets so long as they produced,

but those brought low are liabilities-they take time and effort,

so they were often cut loose.

The way corps supposedly was training for Christian service,

or Christian leadership, depending on who you asked.

Why didn't it have significant time-expenditures on comforting the hurt?

hi this is my first time i would like to say, that i cannot find anything wrong with being positive and/or sayin bless you to people that were learning the same as myself and family. Right now the world could use alot of what we learned from the teachings of GODs word if this makes me a parrot ...so be it. sarckat

Hello, sarckat.

Few, if any, of us say there's anything wrong with BEING POSITIVE.

Few, if any, of us say there's anything wrong with "saying bless you".

I, for one, am in favour of both, and I say "God bless" to people all the time.

(I like being specific about who I'd like to send the blessing,

and did back in twi as well.)

THAT's just fine.

None of that, however, has anything to do with the discussion at hand,

which is about MISTAKES and ERRORS in what we were taught concerning "believing."

Being positive or saying "bless you" would not make you a "parrot."

I'd say there's any number of GSC'ers who do that and are not "parrots."

Let me explain what the "parrot" thing refers to.

A parrot is a bird that can repeat phrases or sounds it hears.

A parrot DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what it repeats back-it just repeats back sounds.

If a person hears teachings, DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THEM and just repeats them back,

then there's no LEARNING or UNDERSTANDING conveyed,

just the repeating back of sounds.

If you've done some serious Bible study on a subject- and not just "reread the twi

materials until I agree"- and concluded that the twi position was correct-

that's real thought. (I've concluded they were right a number of times.)

If you're still repeating what twi said, and never took a hard look to see if

the Bible agrees with this statement,

then, sadly, you're not thinking on your own, you're just repeating back

what you were told without understanding,

just like a parrot.

BTW,

there's a sticky topic pinned up top with a welcome and some advice.

I'd recommend reading it.

Then again, I'm a little biased. (I wrote the first post.)

I wonder how that selective reading is working out for WTH.

He QUOTED me as saying this....

(WW)

I'll go on record saying that I'd be amazed if anyone but WTH thinks this is me putting any significant effort into something. As for WTH thinking the Holocaust is a "lie", "myth", or any type of religion, he's entitled to think that, but we're entitled to examine the evidence more closely. Such as, everything we've mentioned in the thread that he's skipped over, such as footage from the sites, and discussions of non-Jews who said what they saw, and bore the serial #s on their skin.

and replied with this....

(WTH)

The revisionists have already covered and discussed many of the issues you have mentioned, i.e. footage from other sites, Holocaust survivor testimonies, etc. - issues that have been brought up here - by you and by others elsewhere. (GSC and this thread is not the only disscussion board on the Internet discussing the Holocaust.) So truly, nothing has been "skipped over" like you claim they have.(snip)

Once again, WTH seems to forget that we're supposedly having a discussion HERE

and not across many other messageboards. He can't take credit for discussions elsewhere-

just his own participation in this one.

As such, my point about "everything we've mentioned in the thread that he's skipped over"

(exemplified by some things mentioned a few times and summarily ignored by him)

can't LOGICALLY be addressed by saying

"the revisionists have already covered" it,

"So truly, nothing has been 'skipped over' like you claim they have."

I don't see "the revisionists" posting on this thread and commenting on what was

posted here- just him. And he's skipped over several things.

That's his choice, and he's entitled to stick with it,

but it's rather silly of him to pretend he's not doing it,

and to attempt to obfuscate that by mentioning other people elsewhere are

discussing it, which has nothing to do with whether he looks at video footage, for example.

So, it's a matter of

A) ignore the evidence that challenges his position

B) pretend there's no problems with evidence supporting his position

which are old twi tactics which are archaisms for most of us, but not all of us,

just as vpw's comments concerning Jews (which were disproven with genetics)

are archaisms for most of us, but not all of us.

I'm all over it.

I'm sorry you guys have your brains turned off, but I stand by what I posted.

Despite vpw saying-in print-something completely different....

Here's what you said vpw meant...

In the pfal class VP held one hand above the other while he was saying "if your needs are down here and your wants are way up here, it won't flow", but when he actually said "your needs and wants must be parallel" his hands were side by side, forming an 8" line which happened to be "parallel" to his bible, which was directly underneath his hands.

Here's what vpw said vpw meant...

=========

Orange Book, pg-19 to 21.

"If we are going to tap the resources for the more abundant life, we must not only know what is available, how to receive it,

and what to do with it; but we must also get our needs and wants parallel. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy,

we are not balanced. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy, we are not balanced. If our wants are light and

our needs are heavy, we will never get an answer. When we believe, we get results in prayer if our needs and our wants are equal.

Look at Matthew 18:19.

...If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

In the Greek text the word 'agree' is ' symphonized'. If the two people agree, they are in harmony; they have their needs and wants

parallel because 'it shall be done.' John 14:13 is another tremendous truth.

John 14:13

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Again, whatsoever we ask in Jesus' name, having our needs and wants parallel, he is going to do. In John 15:16 is another wonderful

promise.

John 15:16

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

If we know what is available, how to receive it, what to do with it, and have our needs and wants parallel, then whatsoever

we shall ask shall be done unto us.

There is another promise in I John 5:14.

I John 5:14

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

If we have our needs and wants parallel, we can ask him anything according to His will. How can we know His will without knowing

His Word? His Word is His Will. "

======

"Sorry you have your brain turned off", but I stand behind vpw explaining what he meant.

The early Rock of Ages were pretty loose, relaxed, with varied people coming together for fellowship and teaching. Over the years people became more and more alike, way-brain. Now compare a SNS at New Knox' auditorium. Everyone seems to dress, look, talk, act alike. (Even down to the funny choir outfits with the multicolored scarves.) Like a convention of business suit tailors. This is one effect of the way tree- everybody knuckles under the leadership and becomes alike.

Some people would claim vpw didn't intend this result.

They would put forth that all the changes that happened together JUST HAPPENED

to be vpw-serving, and that was an unintended coincidence.

Then again, some people think 'professional wrestling' is real.

TWI did not make itself grow. VPW latched onto a genuine movement of God, the "Jesus Movement" of the late 1960s and 1970s. Young people were flocking to the Lord as the "counterculture" movement was driving other people into immorality, alternative religion and anarchy. The Jesus People were a spiritual revival and led to renewal of worship, which is always a facet of spiritual revival. (Worship renewal was led my Maranatha Music/Calvary chapel and other contemporary worship music using guitar/ keyboard/ bass/ drums instead of organ/ piano.) VPW literally stole people from the Jesus movement (first in San Fran). The way tree and VPW replaced the Jesus movement (which was genuinely spiritual and not managable) and tried to impose VPW's likeness on people in place of Christ's likeness. VPW squeezed out spiritual life. He wasn't the onyl one- other cults/ cult leaders like Berg and "the Children of God" perverted the Jesus movement too.

From his start as a minister to 1953, vpw seemed interested in working with youth,

but didn't seem to be exceptional in what he wanted to accomplish,

not being noteworthy one way or another at the time.

In 1953, he stole Leonard's class, and began to teach it as HIS class,

and stole Stiles' book, and began to sell it as HIS book.

Now he had a product- the results of quality Christians.

(he added to them with Bullinger, Kenyon, and Lamsa.)

However, for the next DECADE, numbers did not swell, which probably is why

vpw didn't "give up his day job" and continued to draw a paycheck from his

denomination.

It was only his recruitment of the Jesus People that led directly to large numbers

of people hearing about his group, visiting, and liking it.

(Actually, they liked H33fn3r's group and D00p's group, and vpw was just

part of the package.)

vpw diverted Christians from what they were then doing, and put them to work

as his recruitment arms.

(Someone's suggested that vpw was the devil's way of making the Jesus People

less effective.)

Once they brought in the numbers, vpw kicked out H33fn3r and D00p and

consolidated all control and decision-making,

and especialy all money-

into his own hands.

Hi Oakspeare!.......and hi to all who have posted on this thread.

i copied the above post from another thread to save some time.

the "revelation" of the way tree was given to vic- according to him- in order to establish the administrative structure of twi, .as i stated above.

no one in the "early" daze of the way east, where i got "involved" with twi in late 1970, really ever heard much about it.

steve and sandi heefner were our "leaders". he was the only "ordained" clergyman in the way east when he came to us,

ordained in november, 1970 if i remember correctly, along with john lynn and boob moyihan by vic at new knoxville at a special sns.

btw, steve was (imo) a really great guy!

to this day i regret not being able to offer more tangible support to him and sandi when they were fired by vic during the ac in rye, ny in april of 1972.

this was not too long after jim and judy doop were fired publicly from the way west during "the way presents" fiasco in ca.

steve was a genuine minister and friend-and he was NOT wrong!

as another interesting side note, it was chris geer who provided the "inside" covert support for vic in all the shenanigans they pulled to fire steve during that ac.

his reward was to be made the lc in massachusetts in june of '72!!

as i stated in the previous post, it was john townsend who was "pranced out" to teach the way tree seminar on video, not fugit.

fugit was the "evangelist" who taught the first video seminar on witnessing and undershepherding, which was later replaced by a seminar of the same name, filmed during "living victoriously" in june, 1982 including vince finnegan and ralph dubofsky as the teachers.

the real push for formalizing and establishing the way tree structure in twi began in the spring of 1972,as i stated above, in order to "lock in" vic's absolute control over the leadership and money....especially the money.

prior to the spring of '72, all the 'limbs"-i.e. the way west, the way east, etc.,-

were independent "corporations".

each "limb" decided on its own how much money wouyld be "abundantly shared" with "the farm" in nk.

as did each area or branch decide how much it would send to the limb.

.all expenses (like rent, salaries, cars, gas, "petty cash", refreshments for meetings, etc., etc.,)were handled by and at the local level by the local leaders, all decisions regarding allocation of the money were made at the local levels, until......

the ominous spring of '72...

this was when hq in nk became the vatican of twi-the only rule for faith and practice, no more questions!!!!

the info provided by johnj in his post on this thread augments the facts surrounding the "circling of the wagons" by vic and da boyz in '72.

btw...

.the "original" bot was established in 1957, when vic and harry incorporated the way after getting the ancestral family farm to be "the ministry's" after vic "left" the church in van wert.

the board of directors never really wielded much real power over the corporation other than "nominally"-

from '57-69-basically "rubber stamping" what vic, harry and ermal decided with occasional disputes over money..............

but the bylaws of the corporation from 1957 clearly gave final say to the original 3 bot members.

this was totally "etched in stone" by early '71 if not earlier.

so, when the money became "serious" by 1972, vic made sure he and harry were totally in control of ALL OF IT!

hence the teaching and institutionalization of the way tree provided them the exclusive authority to control doctrine, practice and (most importantly) ALL THE MONEY that twi had..............

I think wordwolf and belle have hit on the 2 major "ideological" tipping points regarding why vic really pushed the consolidation and eventual "denominationalization" of twi doctrines.

From a chronological perspective, i think the tipping point came in the spring of 1972, when vic pranced out john townsend as the "frontman" for the teaching and establishment , the "formalization" of the way tree.

Prior to that time, there were only "fellowships", not twigs, we weren't' "joining twi"-there WAS no twi, it was "the way, inc."....back then,"the way ministry".

the brc had the word "ecumenical" stamped on its dedicatory placque, hung at the main entrance, we were "getting into the word", becoming "born-again christians".

"Getting into the ministry"- back in 1970 (when i "got in") consisted of, "headquarters" in new knoxville ("the farm"),

the way west, the way east, the way of north carolina (the ecu crowd, et al), the way of kansas (primarily fugit in wichita, followed shortly by townsend), the way of indiana, the way of ohio, and the way of australia.

After the "summer school" sessions of 1969 and 1970, at hq, things really began mushrooming all over the states.

In the way east, we went from nothing in early 1970 to thousands of "grads" all over the northeast.

Hundreds of classes, hundreds of thousands of dollars in "tithes and offerings, bookstore sales, class registration "donations"....etc., etc.,.....

the only "formal doctrines" were the foundational, intermediate and advanced classes (with accompanying syllabi), "the collaterals" (a collection of about 62 pamphlets, including "pamphlet" versions of christians should be prosperous and adan) and whatever notes people took at summer school and/or family camps!!!

the structure was incredibly "loose" compared to what many came to know in the years following the spring of '72!!!

thousands of details are flying through my mind right now, but, suffice it to say, the incredible increase in cashflow and "membership" provided a major windfall for vic and the boys in nk!!!

in 1972, vic "brought it all home" to the farm.

way east and way west leaders were axed with the various "rumors" of misuse of the money, "ego problems" and not "listeneing to the man of god" at headquarters.

almost over night, "blue forms" appeared, all money was deposited directly into newly established "limb" bank accounts., fellowships became twigs, branches, areas and limbs with "leadership" ordained and appointed by headquarters and then "down the tree".

going wow and corps was now the only "right" way of moving the word and growing "spiritually".

vic consolidated financial and doctrinal control over "his ministry" centralizing and dictating all in and from new knoxville!!!.

he was our "father in the word" now, not merely "the teacher" any more..

suddenly there were new seminars, jcing became the "big deal" in 1973...and the money just kept pouring in!!

if you did'nt line up with hq, you were "out of fellowship"-usually "possessed", "tripped out".

the pfal series was dogmatized, the way tree institutionalized and the "way ministry" was denominationalized into "the way international"!!!

so, to gain and maintain control over the leadership and the money, vic went about full force giving twi it's unique identity, tatooing his way over "the way", his teachings over "the word" and his lifestyle upon the "followers of the way".

the doctrine became "written in stone" and its purest form was available only from "the farm",through "the teacher", our newly crowned "father in the word"-bringing new light to our generation by formalizing all the stuff he plagerized, stole and "received from god" into HIS ministry....and personal "cash cow"!!!

hence "the scarcity" of the "rightly-divided word, as it has'nt been taught since the first century" became an ever more necessary "club" in the hands of the apostle vic used to bludgeon the identity of his ministry into the hungry minds of his faithful "grads".

the spurious doctrines hinted at in the pfal series now became books, seminars, research projects, films, public ex's, rock of ages, etc., etc.,....ad infinitum!

so....the "WHEN"......as far as "putting some teeth into the ministry".......imo........truly was in the spring of 1972 with the imposition of the way tree structure upon those who were formerly simply "followers of the way".............what a toxic spring that turned out to be!!!!..........................peace.

Sorry, I had to structure this. I left your words the same, except for punctuation, and I think I dropped

one (redundant) word.

The Way Tree was established by VP Wierwille in about 1971 to give him authoritarian control and centralized power over everyone in TWI. Early leaders such as Dave Anderson, Steve Heefner and Peter Wade left because of this new authoritarian structure with Wierwille (and his yes-men, his brother and Ermal Owens as trustees) at the top.

Heefner left in 1972 because of "tight controls, centralization and money disputes" with "one authority and no avenue of recourse" (Ft Wayne Jorunal-Gazette Mar 14, 1979)

Anderson left in 1973, aserting that Wierwille began to use the Way Tree to contriol everyone in TWI, saying

"By the time I left The Way, there was no longer any room for challenge. There was one leader with complete and absolute control. The Man of God whose revelation was unquestionable, could turn liberty into license without the possibility for correction from anyone on earth. In 1965 I heard 'the greatest of these is love,' in 1973 I heard 'the love of God does not work- we're going to put some teeth in this ministry'" (Anderson, letter to the editor of The Evening Leader, St Mary's Ohio, Jan 17, 1979)

Peter Wade added, "since 1971 when VP Wierwille decided to put 'some teeth into the ministry' and succeeded in draining the life out of it, TWI now deserves its chapters in recent books such as 'Youth, Brainwashing and the Cults'... five top leaders departed in one year'" (The Evening Leader, 1979)

This was part of the reason for the complete failure of the First Way Corps (the 2nd Corps was renamed the 1st to cover its failure)

Since we have no info on the group called "the Zero Corps" (to cover how the 2nd Corps was

renamed the First to hide what happened), I'd appreciate it if you shared what you have

on them. That question's come up before.

Before 1971 there was a "Board of Directors" (not trustees) which actually had some influence over the direction of TWI. But that was terminated by Wierwille when he put himself at the top of The Way Tree. It never was a tree, with roots at the bottom, it was a pyramid, with himself at the very heavy top, burdening all under him. A very self-serving structure. He used TWI to serve all his desires, for ego gratification, money, women, travel, hunting, keeping control of his family farm, (it would probably have been lost or sold had TWI not taken it over), etc.

John

According to my Way Tree syllabus, each "twig" is to be self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing.

That doesn't sound like a very accurate description of the tree in my backyard.

HMMMMM!-----Come to think of it, it doesn't sound like a very accurate description of the Way Tree either.

True.

Can't be "self-supporting" since all the money goes from there to hq and vanishes.

Was occasionally self-propagating, but mechanical efforts were pushed from above,

with all sorts of events.

Was never self-governing, from the early 70s on- vpw was in charge, period,

and his rule was extended thru the Limb leaders to the Branch leaders.

As stated in the conlcusion from my previous post: I'll go on record saying they (refering to Mr Hammeroni and WW) are putting forth a whole heck of a lot of effort into believing a lie - the lie and myth regarding the Holocaust. It may indeed have become a "religion" - although a false one.

I'll go on record saying that I'd be amazed if anyone but WTH thinks this is me putting any significant

effort into something.

As for WTH thinking the Holocaust is a "lie", "myth", or any type of religion, he's entitled

to think that, but we're entitled to examine the evidence more closely.

Such as, everything we've mentioned in the thread that he's skipped over, such as footage

from the sites, and discussions of non-Jews who said what they saw, and bore the

serial #s on their skin.

Exactly WHO's believing something false is really not that difficult to determine.

If one is really honest and trying.

Not that they have become martry's for their cause mind you - but I realize they are putting a lot of effort into it.

And throwing taxpayers money toward Holocaust education is magically going to make that lie go away?

A) Still not putting in SIGNIFICANT effort, let alone "a lot."

B) I never said anything about adding more education on the Holocaust.

However, since the subject's been raised, I believe WTH himself has provided the

strongest evidence that some REAL education on this subject needs to be

introduced in some places.

Otherwise, you get what we've seen on this thread....

Myself, I think education in general could always use some improvement,

and that's when things are less dire than this....

I'm giving the occasional players a chance to ring in.

Here's how the quotes ran down.

"Do unto others-then run."

That was part of a routine where they were singing, and the jokes were all captions.

While BH was singing, one set began

"Benny lives by the following maxims...Do unto others-then run."

"Relax. Do you understand 'relax'?"

"Yes-a little piece of dark chocolate."

That was when "Fred Scuttle" was trying to hypnotize the mystic,

"Pinch-Me-Body." No, "Prince Mivati." (Played by Jack Wright, that little

bald guy.)

"'Omelet', ja, to be, or not to be, that is the question!"

"And this is the answer! *smack* Dumbkopf!"

A foreign language cooking show.

"After the meal, you will want an after-dinner mint.

You will need an after-dinner 'mint' to pay for the bill!

But ve, of course, haff conquered inflation.

Just as ve conquered Poland. And Czechoslovakia..."

This German on television, who "got carried away a little bit."

"No, I'm wearing black for my poor, departed husband."

"Oh... how long's he been gone? "

"Ten minutes. He won't be back till 1."

This was a throwaway sequence, where that was almost all of it.

"Drink and sex. That's what killed your uncle - drink and sex!"

"Yeah. He couldn't get either, so he shot himself."

A number of times, there were arguing couples as characters.

"With the way you treat me, people would think I was the cook here."

"Not if they came to dinner."

This was another arguing couple.

"How do women get ahold of your Lotharios?"

"Not as often as I'd like..."

Fred Scuttle was running a male escort service. Henry McGee meant to ask

how women arrange escorts.

"Hello? Brown Owl here. No, not brown ale, Brown Owl. Is that the Black Fox?

Is that YOU, BF? Yes, well this is...BO. Of course I know Moscow. It's where

the Kremlin lives."

"Dagger? Oh, he poisoned her. Well, when you said he 'gave her arsenic', I thought..."

These were from "The New Avengers."

"How did you choose him?"

"I chose him because he represents the youth of Great Britain."

"How old is he?"

"58. He's a late developer."

"He looks older."

"Well, he worries a lot."

When Captain Fred Scuttle made his spaceship, Indestructible the Second,

he chose his assistant, played by Jack Wright.

"That's because I'm using Fairly Liquid. It contains lemon juice."

"Lemon juice?"

"Yes, lemon juice. That's what gives it its nice sparkle."

"Sparkle?"

"Yes, sparkle. That's what makes everything all lovely and fresh."

"Fresh?"

"Yes, fresh. Are you bloody STUPID or something???"

A send-up of those commercials where the narrator is an idiot, and the

people on-screen have to completely explain EVERYTHING, while the

narrator feigns ignorance of even the tiniest aspects.

I thought this was a hysterical exchange.

"I think for me, the most memorable moment in films was when you played the doctor to that sick family."

"'Inherit the Wind." Yes, I remember."

"Opposite Margaret Lockwood's nurse . . ."

"That's right. Yes, I know what you're going to say, the scene in the operating theatre."

"That's the scene. You kissed her when she least expected it."

"I beg your pardon?"

"You kissed her when she least expected it."

"Oh, I thought you said 'where'. "

Sometimes he was interviewed as some actor or other.

"What about him? He makes an Egg Foo Young, it's not 'egg', it's not 'young', it's just 'foo'!"

"He should have put more men on the job!"

This was another interesting skit. There was a labour dispute between the employer-

who ran a restaurant and overworked his employee,

and the worker, who apparently was a lousy cook.

(The most-repeated line was "he should have put more men on the job!")

The judge/arbitrator found in favour of the employee, and ordered the employer to pay money.

When he asked why, the judge said it was to support the man's wife and children.

The employee made a correction- he was happily married, but had no children.

Employer:"You know what you should do about that, right?"

Employee""What?"

Employer:"PUT MORE MEN ON THE JOB!"

"Then he marry sixteen wives."

"Sixteen?"

"Yes-four richer, four poorer, four better, and four worse!"

Chou Minh being interviewed.

"I thought she was talking about her boyfriend."

"She no have time for boyfriend-she too busy getting hold of the Husbands."

"How many husbands are there?"

"Six."

"Six?"

"One of the Husbands is a girl."

"One of the husbands is a girl?"

"Yes. That's Murray Husband.

Then there is, uh, Donny Husband....

and little Jimmy Husband, who sing 'I'm a Rong-Haired Rover from Riverpool'."

A different interview with Chou Minh.

Last time I posted this, someone questioned the timing, whether or not the Osmonds

and Benny Hill were active at the same time. However, the Osmonds were active

earlier than they probably thought.

"Long-Haired Lover from Liverpool", by Little Jimmy Osmond, according to Wikipedia,

was a UK #1 single in December of 1972, bumping Chuck Berry's "My Ding-a-Ling".

(That's about a little toy with a bell on it, approximately.) At 9 years, 8 months,

he was the youngest singer to take the UK #1 Singles spot.

"How is the old reverend gentleman?"

"He's a Canon now."

"Wow. My Daddy, a Canon. Well I'll be a son-of-a-gun!"

"You've been at 'the front', fighting for peace."

"Now I'm home, now I want a piece of what I was fighting for!"

A spoof on a soldier returning from the Civil War.

"Listen to this: *reads aloud*

Define the following words:

'relax'- 'a piece of dark chocolate'

lagoon- 'a French idiot'

'macadam'- 'the first Scotsman'

'What is a sausage?' 'A hamburger in tights'???"

This was from early in the SuperTeech segment, where the teacher-in his

non-superhero guise- was reviewing answers one student gave.

Yes, Benny Hill.

In the pfal class VP held one hand above the other while he was saying "if your needs are down here and your wants are way up here, it won't flow", but when he actually said "your needs and wants must be parallel" his hands were side by side, forming an 8" line which happened to be "parallel" to his bible, which was directly underneath his hands.

Well, since the Orange Book mentions NOTHING of this 'parallel to the Bible' stuff,

it's interesting-maybe- but certainly is not what he MEANT to teach.

=========

Orange Book, pg-19 to 21.

"If we are going to tap the resources for the more abundant life, we must not only know what is available, how to receive it,

and what to do with it; but we must also get our needs and wants parallel. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy,

we are not balanced. If our needs are light and our wants are heavy, we are not balanced. If our wants are light and

our needs are heavy, we will never get an answer. When we believe, we get results in prayer if our needs and our wants are equal.

Look at Matthew 18:19.

...If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

In the Greek text the word 'agree' is ' symphonized'. If the two people agree, they are in harmony; they have their needs and wants

parallel because 'it shall be done.' John 14:13 is another tremendous truth.

John 14:13

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Again, whatsoever we ask in Jesus' name, having our needs and wants parallel, he is going to do. In John 15:16 is another wonderful

promise.

John 15:16

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

If we know what is available, how to receive it, what to do with it, and have our needs and wants parallel, then whatsoever

we shall ask shall be done unto us.

There is another promise in I John 5:14.

I John 5:14

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

If we have our needs and wants parallel, we can ask him anything according to His will. How can we know His will without knowing

His Word? His Word is His Will. "

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