WordWolf

*alters the quote to try to translate it* I think that's roughly what themex was saying. I just did one of those paraphrases like the "Living Bible" or whatever. Like them, my intention was to preserve the meaning. For the most part, I agree with themex. We DO have a responsibility for insulating the family from the WORST of offenders. We can pray for people, try to help them, get them professional help, sit with them and listen while they work thru problems, be there as they struggle to overcome temptations or addictions or other things. However, in some cases, the person is unwilling to change, or unable to change. In those cases, we must remember as well that we have a responsibility to the other Christians. Few people (outside of twi elite) would argue against removing criminals from positions of leadership over other Christians. Keeping them around where they can prey upon the people as a whole, however, is a different issue, and one that should not be swept under the rug.

*activates trans-a-lator* Speaking of pfal: foundational, intermediate, and advanced, yes. Speaking of the collateral books for pfal, yes. Concerning the Stiles' book, that's been documented into the ground by John Juedes and others. I posted links where you can make comparisons for yourself, and YOU see if they're not identical. Some of Bullinger's books I DO have and have read. Some of them are accessible ONLINE. We've discussed "the Rich Man and Lazarus" before, and some of us have posted links to it before. (You can find it online easily enough.) The direct inclusion of "How to Enjoy the Bible" in later pfal is blatant and obvious. As for the inclusion of Leonard's work, that's been covered in excruciating detail here as well. We have graduates of Leonard's class, and people who've personally flipped thru Leonard's photo album and seen the picture that vpw gave him when he lied to Leonard about running Leonard's class. (This was discussed in detail on the thread "the way:living in wonderland.") THAT this material was taken directly from the books (and classes) of others has already been well-documented. If necessary, I suppose we can try documenting some of it again. It's really more of a broken record THAT it was the work of others. The links already ON this thread about the White Book, frankly, would be a good introduction to you on this. ===== BTW, there are some people who claim that vpw "admitted" to lifting entire paragraphs, chapters, appendices and formats from others-and entire classes in the case of Leonard- because, if you find a copy of "the Way:Living in Love" and turn to one page, he says, in passing, that none of what he does is original. However, that passing comment is far, FAR short of fulfilling the moral OR the legal requirements-which are completely absent in all the pfal collaterals. No mention exists in the Orange Book that it is a combination of Leonard and Bullinger, with NO material that is not taken from Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class or Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible". Instead, the book says he threw out all his books from other authors and ONLY used the Bible. Virtually the SAME situation happens in the White Book, which is Stiles and Bullinger, but BOTH their names are missing from the book. What IS in the book is that other Christians didn't have the answers that are in that book. (This is a LIE, since it's a combination of the books of 2 different Christians, and the books were in circulation when he got them.) Did you mean to question whether or not the material was lifted entirely from the books/classes of others? Did you mean to question whether it was wrong to do so? Did I miss your question entirely?

You've read those 4 and personally vouch for them containing quality material? Or are you going by reviews from others, or going from the reputations of the writers? (I know Wigglesworth's considered quote-worthy, for example.)

Hello, Protint. Here's some general advice for new arrivals: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913

TLB, I can find lists of publishing companies whenever I want. My question was about the titles of books that would be worth picking up.

Or, with all his talk of reliving the Book of Acts, he deliberately copied an event IN the Book of Acts, Acts 19:18-20. "And many that believed came, and confessed, and showed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all, men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." Did "Uncle Harry Day" resemble incidents in a variety of cultures where people burned stuff? I'd expect so. It also resembled Spring Cleaning. Resemblance does not equal causality- a similarity in events does not require that one was the origin of the other. Frankly, I'd question whether vpw was widely-read enough to have heard of any such ritual. He demonstrated LAZINESS more than any scholarly attribute. This thread is more to compile the actual accounts of books where vpw had the book, and then produced a book with its contents shortly thereafter (or not shortly), with no proper attribution of the sourcebook and entire sentences, structures or concepts lifted directly from the one and inserted into the other. There's plenty of that without any need to speculate.

======== In other news.... "Are the Dead Alive Now?" is a compilation of some of Bullinger's works, most notably "the Rich Man and Lazarus: an Intermediate State?" and "King Saul and the Witch of Endor: Did the Prophet Samuel Rise at Her Bidding?" Most readers will note that vpw also ripped off the "title with question mark" in addition to the content of the books. ==== "Studies in Human Suffering", later called "Job: Victim to Victor", was taken from Bullinger's book "the Book of Job". That became a large chapter in one of the "Studies in Abundant Living".

*reads* Ok, but that had almost nothing to do with my question about Stiles' book. You already answered, though-it's out of print. I wonder what IN PRINT books were written by competent Christians on the Holy Spirit field, and are thus currently "available"....

The "original" PFAL (what I call its first iteration) was a clone of Leonard's class in EVERY detail. Leonard's class had imaginary characters called Maggie Muggins, Johnny Jumpup and Henry Belocco. (I'm not sure about Snowball Pete or Herman B.) Leonard was Canadian. Maggie Muggins was a children's television character easily recognizable by his audience by name. (As if you said "Captain Kangaroo then said..." or "then Big Bird said...) Johnny Jumpup is the name of a plant. Using those 2 names as characters in a class, however, that was straight out of Leonard. Herman Belocco probably started due to an inability of vpw to precisely recall EXACTLY what was in Leonard's class-so sometimes it was Henry, sometimes it was Herman. Snowball Pete was mentioned ONCE in pfal, and doesn't match the pattern Leonard normally used-normal first name, possible normal last name. This suggests-if I may engage in wild speculation-that this was made up by vpw in a pitiful attempt at originality. One of our posters-who took Leonard's class-said that vpw even ripped off Leonard's speech patterns and style, which made it eerie to hear Leonard teach after hearing vpw imitate him. Leonard handled publishing under Canadian Christian Press. vpw handled publishing under American Christian Press. Someone also pointed out that one of Leonard's books contains an introduction that slightly resembles one of vpw's claims. Expand it, add grandiose claims, and an imaginary snowstorm, and you have the 1943 promise. (Leonard never claimed God told him he was unique nor mentioned the 1st century church to him.)

"We have never marked and avoided, and we won't do it any longer." "All marking and avoiding was done by El Forehead Grande, and as such has ended when he was put out to pasture." "We never kick anyone out-they kick themselves out." etc. etc. ==== OFFICIALLY, they claim not to mark and avoid now. They're currently in their Dr Jekyll phase. Mr Hyde isn't due for several years. UNofficially, you're still history if you ask questions-whether you're officially kicked out, or just frozen out until you get tired of being treated like a piece of refuse.

Isn't the Stiles book out-of-print? Did you get a back-copy or a current print run copy? Inquiring minds want to know!

As you already saw, it was NOT David Bowie's "Space Oddity", which introduced Major Tom. This song was almost a reprise of the Bowie tune. In both, Major Tom is lost and never heard from again, lost somewhere in space. In "Major Tom", it's clear he's BELIEVED dead, but has chosen to remain in space, considering it his new home. Those of you who are serious David Bowie fans will remember that "Ashes to Ashes" mentions Major Tom again, and some fans believe that this song says that Major Tom was an allegory, and the "astronaut" had a drug addiction. Since some drug users saw themselves as pioneers and astronauts (as opposed to, say, just someone taking drugs, getting the munchies and watching tv), this isn't far-fetched. Me, I say, enjoy both songs for themselves. Oakspear, your turn!

CORRECT. And Oakspear had the title correct in his earlier post, "Major Tom"(Earth Below Us). The artist was Peter Schilling, the "German guy". For reasons which escape me, when it was a current hit, the artist was "Information Station", which I can find NO record of. (I remember this because I was a fan at the time, and tried to remember all titles with artists if I was a fan of a song. =

The "Power For Abundant Living" book was, of course, a transcription from the class of the same name. The Orange Book's origins therefore are the same as the origins of the class. In its first iteration, that meant it was the exact same thing as Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit course. Later iterations pruned out the Advanced class from the "PFAL Foundation" class, and filled in the remaining space with Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible", and culminating the class with Sessions 9-12, which were Stiles and Bullinger's works on Holy Spirit.

Yes. Some of it WAS word-for-word. Stiles, he lifted the Q & A, for example, and Bullinger, helifted the appendices and all 385 occurrences of pneuma. Yes. Stiles was the best he could find with hands-on writing, Bullinger for the intellectual understanding, and Leonard, he had a cross-section of both. Juedes documented some of this very well, years ago... http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stolenrthst.htm http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_sources.htm

Ok, then, starting off.... The White Book, "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today"... RTHST's 1st edition was Jack E. Stiles' "the Gift of the Holy Spirit", with a few words moved around. Its introduction included an anonymous reference to a man of God who taught him on this subject. That's the Stiles whose book this was a complete photocopy of. Later editions deleted all mention of ANY man teaching him on the subject (3rd edition and later). Later editions also featured EW Bullinger's "the Giver and His Gifts". (This book is currently available under the name "Word Studies on the Holy Spirit.") The Bullinger book is the source of the 385 occurrences of "pneuma" in the New Testament. (Which vpw was unable to even pronounce correctly.) Small portions of the White Book were also taken from BG Leonard's CTC "Gifts of the Spirit" class.

This thread is an attempt at a one-stop-shop thread for locating all the books vpw used for all of his books. Most of you are aware that there were 2 types of book that say "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover. The SECOND type-which came later-were written by committee, and the research staff wrote 100% of the contents except the introduction/preface. That's books like "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" and "Jesus Christ Our Passover." vpw himself otherwise provided zero percent of the contents. The FIRST type-which describes most of "vpw's" books- were the result of taking one book of one author and retyping its contents, or taking more than one book and inserting chapters and retyping their aggregate contents. Almost all of vpw's "signature books" fall in this category. For ease of handling-and those arriving late- it seems like a good idea to try to compile a single thread with all the found "sources" that he cut and pasted to "write" books.

No, but you have the right decade. Maybe if you figured out the name of the character in the song...

"Standing there alone The ship is waiting All systems are go-are you sure? 'Control' is not convinced But the computer Has the evidence. 'No need to abort'. The countdown starts." "Four, three, two, one... Earth below us, drifting, falling, Floating weightless, calling, calling home" "Across the stratosphere, A final message- 'Give my wife my love'- then nothing more" It's neither "Space Oddity" nor "Ashes to Ashes", but may remind you of either song (or vice versa.) Somebody out there listened to 80s music, I know it...

You DID say "..And I prayed for those who need to letthe love of God rule in their heart leaders in TWI & friends at GS.) It seems to be the great forgotten messageChristianity. Both by members of tWi and by GS and most fundamental Christian churches." And I said you judge us here-and the majority of Christians "of forgetting it." Look again. You said we "forgot" it. I said you said we "forgot" it. You said I claimed you said we were "without love". As you can see, I didn't make that accusation. (Scroll up the page.) So, since I never made that accusation (I stuck to exactly what you said) then you put words in my mouth. This is not a major issue, and I won't lose any sleep over it. Actually, those were usually the best ones, historically for twi.That was where they saw the most members. Once that happened, the legalism fell on them like a falling safe. Casual, informal fellowships had rules sneak up on them and choke them like thorns. That's a regular cycle in twi. I'd be careful of that very thing. You're young, and have the drive and the idealism of youth. Most here remember it, few here would fault it. We LIKED having it. HOWEVER, we wished ours hadn't been exploited or strangled out of us. We anticipate the same happening to you, and would prefer you avoid that particular pitfall. (Those pitfalls, technically.)

[WordWolf in brackets and boldface again.]

[WordWolf in boldface and brackets.]

Congrats. However, if you're college-age NOW, and left BEFORE, then you really weren't privy to why you "left". Having been back a few months, I'd hold off judgement that you're fully up on what's happening. A lot of people missed OBVIOUS stuff for a few months. The moment they do, start making a tally of the dates they begin inquiring to all your personal business. The sheet will fill up-first slowly, then quickly. Of course that's their words. We recognize the "canned responses." They're not ALLOWED to come up with their own ideas in their own terminology. BTW, those kids are no different from other kids who were just as Christian, but whose parents were kicked out for asking questions, or left when oaths of loyalty-to MEN- were DEMANDED. What they WERE raised through was "don't ask questions, pretend everything is fine bad things happened? It's your fault for not believing enough" That's a DEFICIENT education. He's fit in more cliches accidentally than I can when I TRY."The truth?" The truth was always HIDDEN from twi members-and STILL IS. "Not Legalism?" The rules and regulations of twi are FAR more confining than in any group they ever criticized, starting with the required tithe. You know vpw taught AGAINST the tithe when he first started out, but when the money was sent to HIM, he wrote a book about its necessity? "Pick up the dropped ball"- twi had a bunch of truths carefully taken from REAL Christians, then were assembled by vpw who claimed God revealed them to HIM and not anyone else. Further, although it wasn't perfect (no man-or men's-work is, but this was supposedly close to perfect since it was from God-and of course it has errors. Try telling that to leadership and you'll be kicked out for it like all the others who tried were. One guy was fired for saying adultery was bad, and a paper saying it was was claimed to have devils attached to it. twi never HAD "the ball", let alone DROPPED it. vpw showed some footage of some great teams, and said he led them to victory. "continue holding forth the Word that is rightly-divided." Errors in twi doctrine are not allowed to be challenged. That's why some of us were easily able to compile a PARTIAL list. Furthermore, the nonexistence of any REAL research team means that either the SAME stuff is REtaught, or new errors are introduced- like lcm claiming that "original sin" was some sort of homosexual act between Eve and Satan, with Adam making it some sort of 3-way. Oh-and they're STILL teaching that "rightly-divided" piece of fluff. If he was confident that twi really DID have "the best"-he'd do what I did when I was IN and honestly compare it to what was OUTSIDE of twi. As it now stands, other Christians FAR outpace them-Christians who've never heard of twi nor vpw. Just wait. If it's not micromanaged NOW, then it will be LATER. That's been the entire HISTORY of twi. People joined when it was free, then left when rules strangled them slowly.

"Standing there alone The ship is waiting All systems are go-are you sure? 'Control' is not convinced But the computer Has the evidence. 'No need to abort'. The countdown starts." "Across the stratosphere, A final message- 'Give my wife my love'- then nothing more"

Oooh-close! I didn't think you'd fall for that one.... But David Bowie did NOT do THIS song. For some reason, I CLEARLY remember this song as being by "Information Station"- but ALL records I can find have an entirely DIFFERENT listing, and ALL references I've heard in the past few years all agree.