Oakspear

Are you trying to start a rumor?

They substituted TRUEgrass for BLUEgrass because it had a negative connotation? --> Apparently they confused Bluegrass with Blues. (Not that the Blues is necessarily negative either) Idiots

less filling! oops, wrong thread :P--> where is the ? engineer anyway?

I too had a spouse who wanted to "go to leadership" every time we had a disagreement. I was brought up to believe that what went on in a marriage stayed private between the married couple. You didn't fight in front of other people, you didn't complain about your spouse to other people, it was nobody else's business! To this day I cannot recall a time when when parents argued. This is not to say that they didn't argue, I know that neither one is perfect, and both have their faults, but the point is that we never saw it! I just can't imagine my mother calling the parish priest to discuss my father's transgression of some church doctrine, or my father calling the archbishop because he and mom couldn't agree on how to disipline one of us kids! So every time that "leadership" was involved in an issue in our marriage I felt betrayed. Made me into a "stepford husband" in my own home. To avoid getting "leadership" involved I would just go along.

My opinion of PFAL was that, at least as it was used during the late 70's through it's retirement from TWI usage in 1995, it was a highly effective tool of indoctrination. This is not to say that PFAL was not very helpful, and that I didn't personally benefit from it, but that in its "final" form it was designed specifically to push certain emotional buttons, and to groom us into a narrow TWI mindset. Wierwille does a masterful job of starting with the the students' assumed hunger for a knowledge of the scriptures, hammering on the integrity of those scriptures for close to three sessions, demonstrating keys to interpreting the scriptures, and then laying out his definitions and interpretations. Even the skeptics are often accepting his unique definitions of Greek words and interpretations of the scripture without question by the end of the second week of class. Now people like yourself, who run PFAL independent of TWI or any other group, obviously are not trying to indoctrinate anybody. It's interesting to me that the class is still alive and well almost forty years after its filming. I'm not one who thinks that just because it's in PFAL that it has to be wrong either. The "keys", while very simple, were an amazing new thing to most of us when we first signed the green card. PFAL got a lot of us "searching the scriptures", which was certainly a good thing. While some doctrines taught in PFAL do not stand up to scrutiny IMHO, many do. My main objection to PFAL was that it was used to manipulate me. The manipulation was partly, as you say, by power-hungry Corps grads, but ultimately by the power-hungry founder, Slick Vic Wierwille.

Honestly, I don't know enough to judge the relative merits of the claims of the oxy water fans versus the oxy water debunkers without studying the relevant science, so I have to rely on others' opinions. Thank the goddess that my life doesn't depend on whether or not I drink this stuff! :D--> If you want to drink this stuff because you believe that it turns your hair darker or makes your horses run faster, go ahead; I can say that Hawk's "pear juice" can cure a sinus infection with just as much conviction and just as much scientific proof. (my sinuses cleared up and the pain went away shortly after I consumed some of the moonshine - true story) On another subject: David, do you at all realize that Krysilis believes in your product? She started out on your side. But because she doesn't focus on the same details that you do, you attack her. Not only attack her position, but her character and intelligence as well. That crap about the Way Corps requiring a signature and an address; what's next? And what was that nonsense that you threw in about Wierwille & PFAL? There's a doctrinal thread going on right now, I'm sure that your ideas will get more of a workout down there. Junkyard dog, huh? More like one of those foo-foo dogs hiding behind the fence, yapping away, but without much of a bite. In case you were thinking about dragging out the anonymity card...I have posted my name here on several occassions

Remember, it's OAkie, not Okie :D--> You're quibbling over replace? Geez, gimme a break! I just got back from my "boys night out" at the local watering hole. I'm sure everyone is mentally replacing "replace" with your long-winded definition. PFAL = God's Word, so not coming back to PFAL = idolatry? --> --> --> --> -->

Maybe Wierwille didn't literally believe that his PFAL replaced the bible versions, much less the "Word of God", but I think it is obvious that he believed that his interpretation of the bible was the only correct one, regardless of what the overwhelming majority of scholars might say; that his definitions were more accurate than those who studied the biblical languages for decades, even though his mastery of them was superficial at best; that his pronouncements of "new light" with little or sometimes no textual documentation were correct (remember the times he insisted he was right in the face of unanimous textual evidense to the contrary - "Someday we'll find a text that backs me up"); that he was, literally, the final arbiter of just what "THE Word of God" was. This is different than what Mike is claiming, but Wierwille did believe that he was the filter through which God's will must pass.

The strict ceremony, with the correct colored candles, and everything done according to script, was pretty dead IMHO. In 2000 they decided that communion was to be done by heads of households (moms & dads) for their families and assorted singles who were close to them. We came up with our own service which was fun and joyous without being a "party" atmosphere. Best one I ever was at.

click on the person's name click on "invite _______ to a private topic"

feliz cumplea?a mi hermana y un gran weenie :D-->

I have not recently been notified that, during this month, there are any PFAL classes running, simultaneously in any area where I am likely to be in. Hoorah!!! Isn't that great?

...or how about the time when BC is reading from his bible during a teaching and stops, looking at us expectantly to chime in with the next word. By the time we all figure out what we are suposed to do, he is screaming at the top of his lungs that we are "dead". ...same BC has asked me to be responsible for setting up a room for fellowship at his house while he is running a WayAP class at another location. He tells me that since the room wasn't being used for anything else at the time, I could leave it set up and just come over a few minutes early and dust. Twig night, about an hour before it was to start he calls me up, screaming at my "slothfullness" and inattention to detail. The room is not set up! Perplexed, I drive over to find that all the furniture is pushed against the walls. He is screaming again, demanding to know when I was going to set up the room for a fellowship that was to start (by then) in about a half an hour. I reminded him that he told me that I could leave the room set up, and he admitted that he forgot, and had moved everything around so that he and his wife could exercise! No apology though, and later an explanation that if I had been spiritually sharp I would have showed up earlier and caught the problem myself!

I guess I should have remembered that from the mid-nineties on, every minute of every day was a confrontation session! We got yelled at for so many things it was astounding: BC sets up a "witnessing night" at the park. He and some of the younger guys get into a basketball game, some of us parents took our kids to the playground, and some of the singles just cruised around. After the designated time to meet, we all meet back at the basketball courts where BC is still playing basketball and not really talking to anyone. The rest of us amble over to watch the game. BC stops in the middle of a play and roars at me to "get my people together" (I was a twig coordinator) and speak the Word to some of those gathered around and stop being slothful.

Kind of depends on how many daughters Pharoah had, whether there were any sons, etc. In England the children of Princess Anne are kind of low on the succession totem pole, I doubt that Moses had anything close to a legitimate claim on the Egyptian throne.

If the guy who taught PFAL was a little more receptive to research that wasn't his maybe "everybody else who learned it too" might have been more motivated to do it.

A hairy pilot Roars at a prissy robot They're far, far, away

Right on Galen! If you can't listen to people, how are you going to minister to 'em?

Oh yeah, after watching Dogma I now picture God as Alanis Morrisette; I know what you mean

Hiya Keynote, good to see you posting again! :D-->

The Way talked out of both sides of their mouth on this, non-Way literature would be referred to, and then we would be told to stick with the PFAL materials. Much depended on the local leader. After all, Wierwille was obviously well-read, and Martindale used to brag about all the books he read, and even displayed the Harvard Classics on the WayAP set. In my area the biggest opponent of "secular" literature was my ex-wife. She interpreted Wierwille's statement in PFAL to put aside all your secular reading materials as a lifelong thing. She nagged me when I read books or newspapers, and eventually nagged me into dumping my LP collection. A few weeks ago my oldest son told me that it was painful for him to watch me throw those records out.

I condemn the Apostle Paul for writing it!I don't believe God authored it! I can still focus on those sins because their effects still linger

It wasn't until the Allen lawsuit and its aftermath that I was motivated enough to really check this stuff out and question it. Convinced that since Martindale wasn't spiritual enough to realize that screwing another man's wife was wrong, he wasn't spiritual enough to teach anything, let alone a class designed to be the foundation. After a year going through the WayAP class and starting on PFAL I had about ten typed pages of errors. The most egregious errors were the "Original Sin of Mankind" and "The Face of the Deep" from WayAP. I went to leadership with my research findings, rebutting everything Martindale taught virtually word by word. My twig coordinator hemmed and hawed and said that he couldn't find any errors. (This was not a stupid man - he was probably the only other person in the region to have any facility with Greek, and was in some ways a very logical thinker) Rather than b.s around with the Way Tree, I went right to John Reynolds. John phoned me one night and gave me no real answers. He asserted that Rivenbark had a hand in the research that went into the class, and it had been "checked out". (As if that was an answer). Reynolds suggested I discuss my concerns with Tom H, who would be teaching the class live. Reynolds said that because TH was teaching WayAP live, he would be "working the Word" in preparation and would be able to answer my questions. TH had no answers other than "I don't need to work the Word; if this class is good enough for the Trustees, it's good enough for me". The only concern that he had was that my doubts were infecting the "household". Eventually I was confronted for posting on GS, although I never admitted to it, I told Mrs. TH that either someone would have to explain why I was wrong, or the Trustees would have to change what they were teaching. Well, neither happened. I was kicked out less than a week later. They were never interested in my "research", nor in my conclusions, they were only interested in getting me to conform.

The biggest mistake that TWI "leadership" ever made with me was teaching me how to use research materials. In the early nineties our LC's wife gave me or copied for me many of her Corps notes on Greek grammar. I'm pretty good with languages, so, although I'm no Greek scholar, I was able to teach myself enough so that I could at least check out what I was being taught. We never had any big "research heavyweights" in our Limb, or even region, so I was well beyond most of the local Corps within a few years. Initially I used my skills to more firmly root in my mind what I was being taught; but balked at saying anything when I found problems. The first was the whole athletes of the spirit teaching. None of the interlinears, concordances, lexicons, etc supported the interpretation that TWI propounded. At that time I just "held it in abeyance", figuring I'd see it someday.

Link to the related discussion in the Doctrinal Forum: http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1...06139#456106139