Oakspear

I hope I'm not being shunned because of Black Sabbath :D--> !!!! Tom's Saturday night Bedtime CD Pick: Jeff Beck's Who Else Excellent instrumentals (what Jeff was always best at) Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

okay, sorry about the Black Sabbath thing :P-->, but I really do like the Volume 4 and Paranoid albums. Tonights Tom's Bedtime CD Pick: is The Allman Brothers' Eat A Peach no commentary needed :D--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Deception cannot, in my opinion be adequately confronted while remaining within the confines of TWI. I'm not talking about small-time, one-on-one issues, but the over-arching big-picture (I like hyphens this morning :D-->) issues that plague TWI. There are several reasons for this 1. The "leadership" community of TWI believes that they are the God-inspired arbiters of what is true and what is not, doctrinally and practically. Questioning the veracity of integrity of "leaders" becomes an offense and even a sin. Even when the pressure and control tactics are lessened, this ex cathedra world-view is still there. While some are using this mind-set to manipulate others, many "leaders"actually believe that this is true and godly. 2. There is a culture of "cover your own foot" is the upper echelons. The judge in the Allen lawsuit cited testimony that indicated that Rivenbark at least knew of Martindale's womanizing for at least five years. Admitting any errors is not in their best interest, legally or in the context of maintaining power. 3. TWI's core doctrine's promote an us vs. them view of everything. Questioning or confronting puts you firmly in the them camp. Many people have tried to confront doctrinal error, practical error, and abuses over the years. Some of those worked on a small, fellowship based problems, while others attacked the problems right in New Knoxville. Not a few of those people post here. I tried in my own small way. Can anyone thing of one person who has succeeded? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

...of course, contrasted with gobbledy-gook of the best sort :D--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

I was amazed when I recently learned that Stiles wrote a book at all. He is presented in The Way, Living in Love as being a guy who happened to be at that conference in Tulsa who led Wierwille into speaking in tongues. Surprised I was to learn that parts of RHST is copied from his book. BG Leonard is another one. He is presented in TWI mythology as a guy who ran a class that was long on practical experience and short on the Word. We find out that parts of his books are copied directly into Wierwille's. So Wierwille kind of, sort of acknowledges these men, but not really. Then there's Bullinger. Wierwille refers to Bullinger all the time, he sold his books and commentaries in his bookstore, yet Wierwille claimed that he came to the conclusions that Bullinger did independently. What is funny sometimes about Wierwille's use of Bullinger is that he doesn't always understand Bullinger's point. He'll mouth something that Bullinger said to support a point, yet Bullinger was of an opposing opinion. Something that always puzzled me, but doesn't now, is the widely varying styles in Wierwille's different books. Some are relatively scholarly in tone, some sound like a C - minus seventh grader. Some contain copious notes and references, others just spout things that seem to come out of thin air. Some are logically put together, others are gobbledy-gook of the worst sort. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Tom's(no kidding)Bedtime CD Pick:Volume 4 by Black Sabbath Okay, Sabbath may not have been the best musicians out there, but Volume 4 had it's moments: Ozzie hadn't totally slid into the cesspool of drugs and alcohol yet, and there are some decent instrumentals; FX, Laguna Sunrise, St. Vitus Dance. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Socks: Rhodes et al were not part of Black Sabbath, but Osbourne's post-Sabbath band. Tony Iommi was Black Sabbath's only guitarist. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

chwester: Let's Spend The Night Together was by the Rolling Stones. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

The Music Thread Lives Again Tom's Bedtime CD Pick also lives again! :D--> ...they got music in their solar system...let's go space truckin'... Deep Purple's Boxed Set!!!!! Tonight I'm listening to disc 2: Space Truckin' Smoke On The Water Highway Star Fools Never Before When a Blind Man Cries Pictures of Home All cuts by Deep Purple mark II Ritchie Blackmore on guitar Roger Glover on bass Ian Gillan's vocals Drummer Ian Paice Jon Lord on keyboards Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

What is the sound of one baby clapping? The bathwater that you perceive is not the true bathwater. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

dia duit my sister Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Deep Purple: Smoke On The Water The Kinks: Lola Aaron Copeland: Fanfare For The Common Man Derek and The Dominoes: Layla Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

I also noticed that Ben Urich was a reporter for The New York Post rather than The Daily Bugle. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Zix: Wasn't Elektra a recurring character opposite Wolverine in the X-Men comics? That's why the scene you mention in your last post was a surprise to me. I saw the movie tonight and enjoyed it. I'll probably bring my 15-year old to see it next week. Affleck does a great job portraying a blind man, even down to folding different denominations of bills differently so he can tell them apart. The way he has to sleep to tune out all the noise that his hyper-hearing assaults him with is pretty cool. Michael Clark Duncan does make a great Kingpin. I almost forgot that he's drawn as a fat white man in the comics! I loved the martial arts scenes, although there were some "personal physics moments" here and there. The "pass me the honey" scene was a winner too. :D--> Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Thank you Ben Grimm Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Will probably see it next week. Was surprised initially at MCD as Kingpin, but, hey, why not? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

1995-1997: Got increasingly uneasy with the yelling and mental abuse that took place. Culminated in 1997 when I blew up at the BC for yelling at my wife. Was ready to leave right then but my wife would not back me up, so I stayed in to keep the peace in my home. 1999: Was put on probation for six months. 2000: After hearing of the lawsuit, started to question what I was hearing from "leadership" about the whole situation. Put things "on hold", waiting for the other shoe to drop. Started re-working Martindale's foundational class since I was convinced that someone as messed up as he was could have accurately worked the Word only by phenomena. Started reading and posting on WayDale, but still reamained loyal to TWI. 2001: Came up with ten pages of "actual errors" in The Way of Abundance and Power (WayAP) class. Presented these to local leadership who did nothing. Wrote to John Reynolds. John called me back after a few weeks and discusssed several issues with me. I was willing to give it another shot. Reynolds told me that I could discuss specific doctrinal questions with Tom Horrocks, the Region Coordinator, since he had worked the Word in preparation for teaching the class live. Horrocks said that he didn't need to work the Word, because the Trusteees had approved the class and that was good enough for him. At this point I made the decision to get out, but wanted to take my family with me. I started posting "insider" information on Waydale and GreaseSpotCafe and became more openly critical of TWI. WayGB figured out that it was me and banned me from Way fellowships because I "didn't believe that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the right direction". I was offered probation. I refused. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Oldies: The Roman Catholic experience, like the TWI experience is subjective. Like you, many people found the rules and regs of Catholicism oppressive, others find great meaning in the Catholic faith, while still others just go through the motions. Compare that to TWI: your experiences in Wierwille-era TWI was very positive, while others who were involved during the same era had negative experiences. With both, I think it depends on the individual, as well as the local "leadership", and the people that you are surrounded with. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

One of the results of that "Unequally Yoked" crap was that they started teaching that if you were not "doing the Word", you were causing your spouse to be "unequally yoked" to an "unbeliever". Whenever a problem became manifest in a marriage, they would whisper that in the ear of the spouse that was perceived to be more loyal to TWI. Another example of how, even if they didn't actually cause problems in peoples' marriages, they certainly made them worse. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Crown: Thanks for your contributions to this thread. Much of it as been discussed in bits and pieces by other "innies" who post here, but you have distilled current doctrines and practices down nicely. Even though the face melting abuses of the past seem to have died down, the error that supported them still remains. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

From what has been posted here, it's evident that there are a number of opinions as to what the standards for cult status should be: doctrinal, behavioral, psychological. I suppose when you define "a cult" broadly as "something that has religous overtones, but is somehow bad" you're going to get a multitude of definitions. After all, to certain churches, deviation from orthodox doctrine is as dangerous as controlling leadership and psychological manipulation. To some, doctrine is irelevant to the issue. Depends on the priorities of whoever is making up the definition. What bothers me is people who pin the "cult" label on twi or anyone else for that matter, without a clear understanding of what really goes on inside. In my experience, people who thought that I was in a cult had the following rationale: Wierwille taught a lot of things that are different than what "the church" teaches Wierwille lives "high on the hog" off your money You are changing due to Wierwille's influence The Way is called a cult (Circular reasoning on this one) In my mind these aruments held little water: There is enough disagreement on doctrine out there, that doctrinal arguments did not confer cult status to me Plenty of heads of denomination live well off their supporters money Many of us changed for the worse under twi's influence; some of the change was facilitated by negative reinforcement by family, friends and church; some was the result of youthful ego-flexing; some probably was due to twi If some periodical or some minister said you were a cult, that was all that some people needed to make up their minds, no examination of the issues, no looking at the evidence Most people had no idea what went on inside the Way, and were basing their judgement on flimsy evidence, in my opinion. It's like the people who tried to get you to stop smoking pot by showing Reefer Madness, it was so crazy that you just discounted the whole argument; claims that we were in an evil cult didn't match up with our experience, so we laughed them off. Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare [This message was edited by Oakspear on February 13, 2003 at 15:17.]

I have long since passed from the "examination" phase of dentally altered pedicures and into the "acceptance" phase of dentally altered pedicures (DAPs), so long in fact, that many of you were not yet born when I conceived this great conception. Or even if you were born, you had not yet entered the "examination" phase (EP), still wallowing in the initial "acceptance" phase (AP). It is self evident that we all started out in a AP of DAP, received a trauma upon discovering that it was "all our fault" (AOF) for the "fall of the ministry" (FOM), which was built upon, you guessed it the AP of DAPs. It was AOF that we caused the FOM by our headlong rush to EP of the DAPs. No matter what Rafael says with his Floridian reporter tricks that he learned at reporter school. ...and yes, balls in a jar does sound kinky! Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Hold on...how many F's are there? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

I don't know why everyone is picking on Larry P, after all, even if he is a niggardly German hating solicitor, he is entitles to his own version of the truth, justice and the American way as everybody else, except Muslims who buy stamps of course. I dreamed once that I met Larry and in the dream he was a pretty nice guy, so therefore I must apologize for some of things I was thinking of saying. Larry never had a chance. But I was wondering about one thing Larry: do you consider the voice-overs that Wiewrwille did for the "sex-with-dogs" video canonical? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare

Glad to see that Eowyn is still in the lead, but Kathy's thread has surpassed this one :P--> Gollum???? Oakspear "We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling" Henri Poincare