johniam

Rocky: Hmmm, sex answereth all things.

Well NOW ya did it! If you're an arc, I'm gonna have to pass the torch and retire.

Ex, you got ten times as many posts as me.

OK, OK! I think I just figured out that much of the things said about VP like on Oakspear's thread are not necessarily trying to drive him to an early gahenna, just trying to "discourage" the VP is the MOG mantra. I still say people who still think that way need room to breathe. Most of the people I fellowship with won't touch GS with a ten foot pole. They stereotype everybody as 'wanting to stay bitter' when deliverance is available. I suspect that reading threads like the one Oakspear started are what turn them off. But they would probably get a lot out of it if they would invest some time. Oh,well.

Sorry, it's classified.

Yeah, we can't judge his heart; that is God's specialty. But we can judge his works and boy, have we. I have to admit, I thought more people would be quick to say "sure he's in hell" or something like that. I think I just figured something out.

OK, what made me think to ask that was not a desire to be contrary to Oakspear, but rather, I was thinking about that line in the song Amazing Grace that goes..."when we've been there ten thousand years" etc. Even beyond VPW or Hitler or anybody like that, I've always felt that the idea of eternal torment is way disproportionate. I mean, eternity of torment for one lifetime of evil? If the bible's right, it hasn't even been ten thousand years since Adam and Eve were created, or possibly Lucifer. Ten thousand years from now nobody's going to care about stuff like that. Plus in Revelation God does promise to wipe away all tears from our eyes. I tend to believe as Trefor said that God is big enough to forgive VPW, and us, too. But who knows? Ex, you might be the one who gets to tell VP what his job assignment will be, or when he's eligible for a pay raise.

Thank you all for your responses.

I SIT all the time. Still works.

This is a follow up to Oakspear's thread "why are VPW's sins excusable...etc?" We were taught in PFAL that we got incorruptible seed upon receiving salvation which meant that no matter what we do after salvation we still have eternal life and could only lose rewards, not salvation. But that can't be right. Oakspear's first post claimed that the majority of GSers feel that VPW's sins are not excusable. How can he still have eternal life after what he did? So where is he now? 1) In Hell, being tormented day and night for ever and ever. 2) Awaiting the return, only to find he'll be shoveling .... for the first "block" which might take ten thousand yrs. 3) In the process of being reincarnated as a black widow spider's mate over and over again one time each for every person he sexually abused. 4) Just dead, never again to have any kind of life. What say you? Oh, and please say where you really think he is, not where you wish he was, if there's a difference.

Early: You were not born with all that bitterness in your heart, and you don't have to die with it, unless you simply want to.

Hey Dot: You said something a few pages back about people who "need" a cult. I can kind of relate to that. When I came to the word I was this drug using Beavis and Butthead all rolled into one still living at home and couldn't relate to anybody who wasn't at least a 75% match. Not too many people like that apparently. I used to go to places that served steak and deliberately sit by a window and eat the thing with my bare hands just to gross people out. Once, while riding in a friend's back seat on the highway, I extended myself through the driver's side window almost to the car in the next lane and went BOO! Poor lady. So if you think I'm obnoxious now...? I really did need TWI for several years. I read the Christian ettiquette book a lot. Became much more housebroken. TWI acted as a sort of half way house for me. I sure don't regret the biblical exposure, either.

Song: This happened in Naples, Fla. I couldn't find a link about it. I had never heard them before getting into TWI and the 6 pointed star on the cover of 2112 repelled me. Then when they came to STL for the Moving Pictures tour I heard a radio interview with Neil Peart. Seemed like a decent guy. Tom Sawyer was OK. I really liked New World Man and The Big Money. THAT song seemed to parallel what LCM was teaching at the time about wrong seeders. In 1996 I finally got to see them. I haven't gone to many concerts the past 20 yrs, but that one was great. Thank God for earplugs.

Just heard this on the radio. On New Years Eve he, his son, and his son's wife were at a hotel party. His son got on stage to sing with the band and everything was cool. Then someone called security to get the son (Justin) off stage and that's when the fighting started. A cop broke Alex's nose and each side blames the other. Alex was still in jail this morning.

Linda: I couldn't agree more.

Vickles: Zola is an AOL chat robot who got upset with Rottiegrrrl for calling her a bitch. I was speaking tongue in cheek.

Where's Zola when we need her?

Early: Hi. God bless you. You're a wonderful son of God and I just want to give you a big kiss. Is that OK?

Dot: I don't know Linda personally, but I know her husband. They have tried different spinoffs. He got really shafted while in the corps. In other words, they could get some serious closure here like most of us have. Just because she snapped at Oak with her first post doesn't mean she won't ever show her sunny side. Don't we want to give new people every opportunity to be comfortable with this setup? I know there's a point at which people have to make up their minds to go with the flow or go somewhere else. Also, you're right. If it is a first hand account, it should be freely given. I wasn't implying that the things said shouldn't be said at all. I didn't even mean that I thought Shaz was offended; I figure she said her peace and then stayed away because reading threads like this may push her to relive stuff she'd rather avoid. I just think that people who doubt the credibility of the accusations against VPW (like we all did at one time) that their opinions should also be freely given, and this is just not possible here sometimes. That's all. I guess I was questioning whether it's healthy for some of you to relive this stuff over and over and over again, but it's totally your call. Speaking of that, the stuff I shared that happened to me actually didn't scar me as much as some stuff did years earlier that was not of a sexual nature at all. Some scars are still with me, but I just don't spend a lot of time pummelling myself with how that felt. Try not to anyway.

Does anyone remember who Linda Carter is? She did the 2nd post on this thread. According to her profile, she registered to post is September, apparently lurked here for 3 months, and when she finally got up enough nerve to post, she got tarred and feathered by the committed, faithful remnant of GSC. Think she's ever coming back here? If she DID read the rest of the thread, how do you think she felt when she read about how anybody who could possibly think anything positive about VPW must be really screwed up? She's the new person who asked the wrong question during manifestations, I guess. Has it occurred to you that part of the healing process for some might involve still thinking VPW was the MOG and even posting to that effect? So what if someone does that. At least they're doing it HERE!!! Because if they post HERE they can read the other threads that are HERE and just maybe change their mind in their own season at they're own rate of growth. But no, we've got to be thread police social worker wannabes and "Mike-proof" every thread as soon as someone posts anything positive about VPW. Consider Kitsober for a minute. She's catholic. Many discussions have included catholic bashing, but you don't see her getting in a snit and trying to overcompensate. She justs posts when she feels inspired and is not threatened by it. Shazdancer posted on the 2nd page of this thread that she had to endure a court case in which every day she had to relive the attack on her and that she longed for the day when it would be over and she wouldn't have to relive it anymore. When is it going to be over for some of you? Is literally the rest of your life going to be spent martyred to what a dead man did to you? Your identity is victim. Who needs son of God, or Christ in you? God doesn't have any power to heal your heart? Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. True, or false. I think reliving the attack can be necessary, as Shaz said, but not indefinitely. There's got to be a point in time when you must cut your losses and move on. Reliving the attack will prevent healing after awhile. Notice that Shaz hasn't posted on this thread since.

Early: God is not logical??? If that's true then the bible is useless. How could David write "order my steps in thy word" if there's no order? I will concede that God's logic supercedes human logic. It says "my ways are higher than your ways, my thoughts than your thoughts" but God is quite logical and he expects us to be so about his word. Suneisis: Actually, I have been sexually assaulted. I shared it on a thread a few months ago, but, no, I didn't do anything that "asked for it" in my own thinking. I trusted the wrong people: at 18 while at a party, and at 20 while hitchhiking. It was extremely humiliating, but I have not let it plague me. Is it really easier for a guy to say that? We're the ones who are supposed to be "tougher than thou". You had WHAT happen to you??? You must be QUEEEEEERRRRRR!!!!!! Try overcoming that!

Why the double standard? If someone says VPW did something positive for their life, you say give God the praise. It was God, not VPW. Yet, when someone else says they were sexually abused, it was VPW, not the devil.

In case anybody forgot, the first post on this thread asked the following question. So what's your problem with Martindale then? Sure he was crude and obnoxious, and engaged in many sins, but Wierwille put the skunk pelt on him, certifying him as a MOG; shouldn't we overlook his sins too? I would like to submit my answer to the question since this "epistle" is addressed to me. It's not what Martindale did, it's what he didn't do. During my lifetime there have been many incidents with people attached to them which have made powerful impressions on me. The first one I can remember outside my schools and family is the Beatles. I was 9 when they first toured the US and I thought they were galaxies above other groups. Since then, several groups, athletes and other celebrities have duplicated this, including VPW. He came into my life at a time when I was troubled and needed direction and he gave it to me exponentially. I've posted this all before, but, again, no amount of money could have equalled the positive impact in my life I got from PFAL. Martindale never did that. He was like Bob Dole. During the last year or so of Reagan's presidency just about every time you'd see Reagan on TV there was Dole walking right behind him with his nose sticking up his butt. That was "Jethro Martindale" the double naught MOG. The last time a celebrity got to me that way was in 2001. I only went to 2 Cardinal games the whole year. One of them featured Mark McGwire hitting a home run off Greg Maddux over the center field wall. Wow!!! If I read something awful about MM I'll feel bad, but he sure gave me a once in a lifetime feeling that night. So, I'm not really trying to excuse VPW's hypocrisy. He did it! I'm also not pretending that the positive impact he had in my life doesn't exist anymore. He did that, too. However, I still value his overall contribution to my life. Don't I have the right to do that?

I, too, thought of the Good Seed version whenever I heard that song in malls and stores while shopping. Doesn't bother me though. 12 - speaking in tongues 11 - profit and the usage 10 - score five to nothing 9 - giver and the gift 8 - sonship rights 7 - renewed mind 6 - battle of the SENSES (slap, poke, retch, cough, etc.) 5 - it's Christ in me 4 - four were crucified 3 - receive retain release 2 - no pee eye 1 - and believing equals receiving I think Alfred Hitchcock must have written the original version. Look at all the birds in it.

OLM: In 1996 I was listening to tapes of Vince Finnegan. On one tape she was in the crowd and Vince said her name. He would probably know how to contact her.