johniam

Jbarrax: Knowledge is the sum of what anybody has learned and not forgotten yet. Everything has knowledge in it, but remember session 7 when VP was telling how to get born again. He really did make it pretty simple. "Have you made Jesus your Lord? Have you?" It suggested to me the same "lamentable" voice Darius used hoping Daniel survived the lion's den. Now I admit that later in TWI more and more people seemed to believe that knowledge was more important than love, but it wasn't always that way. I never thought knowledge of PFAL defined my relationship with God and JC. In 1 John 1 where it talks about having fellowship with God and JC it gets into honesty with God (1 John 1:8-10) and not hating brothers and sisters in Christ. You don't need much knowledge to start doing that. That's what I inferred from the class and for years a lot of the believers I saw lived it.

Even if the jury/judge buys that TWI coerced people into staying in TWI and giving financially, any church that teaches their followers they'll go to hell is guilty of the same thing. So if the Peelers win this case it will become case law for anybody who wants to sue their church. I can't see this being allowed to happen. Abigail, when that person said they were surprised you weren't already dead didn't they mean that they thought God was going to let you die? Surely nobody believes Donna M somehow got that plane to crash that killed AP's daughter. Sure she was being cruel and oppressive, but that would be hard to prove.

It seemed like Stephen Roberts was getting a little nervous under cross examination...stammering and such. But Colombo is going to keep leveraging the Peelers to prove they were forced to participate for 30 yrs. I don't see how they can do it.

Seems like Peeler is basing his case on the idea that TWI "made him go to fellowship" all those yrs. That won't wash.

Pat: I can see arguments for both sides of that one. In Acts 10, Peter wasn't going to listen to God because He told him to do something which contradicted his previous teaching (rise, kill, and eat, etc.). But Paul just had to go to Jerusalem so bad that he didn't listen to God or credible believers. I agree that TWI, especially recently got in the way of the still small voice. They really said that a "gut feeling" was possession? Idiots!

Speaking of mechanical terminology, once one of my nads became twice the size of the other over the course of a week. I got to where I couldn't wear jeans. I asked my twig cordo to minister to me. He told me to go to a doctor. I did and found I had epididimitis which was fixed almost instantly with a pill. I told the TC I needed a new "ball joint". He informed me I was as sick as he was. His name is Frank, too.

When I used to work in a fast food restaurant, some people would actually change their order if the price came out to $6.66.

Ex10: It's my understanding that Lucifer got into the mess that he got into because he wanted worship that was only for God. Wanted it so bad that he rebelled, became the devil, etc. This was to support my point that while the word 'worship' in scripture can be directed toward people, it includes a type of worship that is for God only.

I think to love God with all your heart, you have to want to do it. Think of all the ways we use the word love. I love my spouse. I love my kids. I love my pets. I love tomatoes. I love ice cream. I love Grateful Dead music. I love watching sports. The lists for all of us are endless, but the common denominator in all love is desire. The love manifests itself in different ways but the will to love has got to be there. Bonnie Raitt's poignant line..."I can't make you love me if you don't; I can't make your heart feel something it won't" God can't either. We have to want to; He made us that way. Speaking in tongues itself is not love, but it helps me to love God if I want to. On the other hand, maybe right now I don't want to love God and I only speak in tongues to go through the motions of being a good wayfer. Nobody loves God 24/7 except JC and it was tough sometimes. He had to work hard to love God in the garden when he sweat blood. He proved it could be done, but sometimes honestly we don't want to love God cause we're too busy with our lives in this distracting world. Studying/reading the word is not love, but it helps me love God if I want to. Dot said... What I have found is the quiet time I give to God and the prayer I have with him has helped me to love him with all my heart. I sing to him as well. I invite him into the steps I take during the day. We all need things that will help us love God. I sure haven't mastered it. I guess when I want to love God, pressure or not, I tend to SIT and just pour out my heart to him with the understanding, too. After doing that for awhile, whatever follows is clearer. [This message was edited by johniam on January 13, 2004 at 22:16.]

Ex: While I concede that scripture allows for your definition of worship, which would be appropriate for JC, it also allows for a "worship" that is for God only. Lucifer would know about that. Also, I agree with those who said they don't judge trinitarians anymore the way they did in TWI. My example of the pastor is that just because he gives lip service to the trinity doesn't mean he's an idolator if he knows that JC was human. But it is also possible to be a trinitarian and to be an idolator and possessed. When I was in TWI I was prejudiced against anyone who claimed to be trinitarian, but I worked at a place and in the break room there was a table where all the people who wanted to talk about religion sat and the trinity never was discussed. I really think a lot of people who go to trinitarian churches don't really think JC is God. It's like the trinity is something to memorize, but not to figure out.

But unlike the brass serpent, we can't destroy JC, just destroy the idolatry along with the other works of the devil we're supposed to destroy in our lives. I definitely honor JC as Lord and Savior, but I don't worship him as God. By the way, ex, you said... I have alot of trouble with the idea propagated in PFAL that "knowledge" is the ultimate end, and "principles" define our relationship with Jesus Christ and our fellow humans. I didn't infer that from PFAL, but I totally agree that knowledge without love is puffed up. That's what you meant, isn't it?

I've shared some of this before, but from April of '99 to January of 2000 I attended a Presbyterian church. The pastor was definitely a trinitarian and he said it about every other sermon. I liked the pastor and the people in the church so me and the 2 other exway families in the church didn't make waves. We were exway and we were willing to hear another point of view. Miracles happen, eh? One Sunday, the pastor preached a sermon titled 'Trust and obey' and the first scripture he read from was Luke 22:42 where Jesus says "Father let this cup pass from me, nevertheless not my will but thine be done." His point was that even Jesus had to struggle with the concept of trust and obey sometimes. Okay, if he knows that Jesus was human, tempted in all points, etc. then somewhere in his mind he knows that Jesus is not really God the creator of the heaven and the earth. Sure, the pastor would never verbalize that JC is not God because peer pressure coerces him otherwise but he knows somewhere in his mind that JC is human. LOTS of trinitarians like that. Even VPW in AC '79 did not say ALL trinitarians are possessed, just those who are ADAMANT about the trinity. Ex10, there is a difference between "worship" and "honoring JC as Lord and Savior" isn't there? Perhaps we'd better define our terms. There's a thread on the x rated forum where Adiosmicorazon says her husband worships her. I don't think that means he thinks she's God. Consider that in the OT God instructed Moses to make a brass serpent because real serpents were killing Israelites and the brass one cured them if they touched it, or something. Then about a thousand yrs later, Hezekiah destroyed the brass serpent because people were worshipping it. JC, like that brass serpent, was given by God for deliverance, but if worshipped as God, then also like that brass serpent, he becomes a snare.

Vickles: In 1971 I saw the group 'It's a beautiful day' (White bird, Hot summer day) and one of the girls was wearing this sexy red dress. Damned if one of hers fell out of the dress. She noticed it at the end of the song and discreetly slipped it back in. Didn't look embarrassed.

Just for the record, there is a difference between a crime and a prank. The following will illustrate this. I grew up in Grand Rapids, MI. If you drive outside the GR city limits in any direction, there's literally hundreds of farms where you can pick your own fruit and buy it cheaper than the grocery stores. One such farm had lots of apples. Out side the entrance to the orchard there was this ten foot tall plastic apple sitting there. Certain of my acquaintances decided to make a bomb and blow up said apple. There were 11 people involved in this prank (one guy got stuff from the gypsum mine, another had a book on how to make a bomb, etc.), but 4 of the guys actually took the bomb there, and 2 took it to the apple. After placing the bomb where they did, they just left. Well, this prank turned into a crime. The bomb didn't detonate when it was supposed to and the guys just left the scene thinking it never would explode. The next day it exploded, blinding a man who had a wife and 2 kids. It took 2 weeks, but the investigators found out about everybody who was involved. Three of the four who drove to where the apple was did prison time of more than 2 yrs. The 4th guy's dad was loaded and he had a separate lawyer and copped a plea and alienated himself from the rest of the guys and later tried to kill himself. The other 7 involved had lawsuit problems. This happened in 1974. Twenty years later the victim had recovered some of his sight but was still very bitter about the outcome. The 4 actual perpetrators were living normal lives. But if the bomb had only hurt the plastic apple or never exploded, there wouldn't have been much of an investigation and nobody would have done prison time. You don't lightly toss the word 'criminal' around unless somebody gets seriously hurt.

Chuck: Your post reminds me of a Grateful Dead line: Willow sky, oh I walking wonder why they say love your brother, but you will catch it when you try.

This is second hand, but my wow sister told of a time when guys raided her sorority house, took the underwear, and wouldn't give them back unless the girls made brownies for them. So they did...laced with chocolate exlax. M@O lighten up. Nobody got hurt.

It seems to me that if VPW was always trying to deceive and enslave people with TWI then it would have been counter productive for him to teach that once you're born again you never lose salvation no matter what you do. That's just the escape hatch one would need to get out of TWI if they were thinking about it. Other religions (denominations) seem to rely on convincing their "flock" that heaven or hell depends on staying "right with God" meaning in their good graces. Interestingly, however, John Hendricks says that when he left TWI in 1990 or so, that LCM told him he would burn in hell. JH just laughed it off as LCM being overly emotional. If LCM was that volatile way back then, then getting fired and defrocked was probably the most merciful thing that could have happened to him IMO.

Ex: I hope your uncle and father get there, too. Isn't there a verse in 1 John where if you pray for a brother in the flesh they'll get in as long as they're not wrong seed? An uncle or father can't be too far down the hall from a brother. OK, yeah, 1 John 5:16. I prayed for my mom to get born again and I believe she did.

What have I kept from PFAL? 1) Salvation is by grace (Romans 10:9&10). 2) SIT. 3) JC is not God. 4) The dead are dead. 5) The gathering together will happen before the events of the book of Revelation. 6) Prayer in the spirit lifts the burden better than prayer with the understanding. 7) The 7 church epistles are in order according to doctrine, reproof, and correction. 8) You can't lose incorruptible seed. 9) Religion is the biblical opposite of godliness. 10) The bible interprets itself. 11) Puctuation, chapters, verses, paragraphs, page headings, etc. are man made and have no divine authority in rightly dividing the word. 12) Christ did not say why have you forsaken me, but rather, for this purpose was I spared (cry of triumph). 13) God doesn't kill people. 14) The old testament, the gospels, and the book of Revelation are not written to the church of grace. If I think of any more, I'll come back.

What do you call a vegetarian with diarrea? A: A salad shooter.

Speaking of 5th corps, I heard that Donnie Fugit declined an offer to be ordained at first and then later accepted.

How many Branch Davidians can fit in a Volkswagen Beetle? A: 100. 4 in the seats and 96 in the ashtray.

M&A: No flames here. The idea of God forgiving that degree of sin is good. I still say though that if God does forgive what VP and LCM did then he will have to wipe away all tears from the eyes of those who were abused so there's no trace. Wouldn't make sense otherwise.

Tom: Yeah, once I was hitching and this couple picked me up and they had pot so we all smoked a joint and I got really stoned, more than usual for one joint between 3 people, and the guy says "By the way, are you a narc?" I was so stoned that I thought he was asking me if I was a segment of a circle (that's what a mathematical arc is isn't it?). I guess that's a plausible thought if you're stoned. I said no and he says OK, cuz y'know you're sposed to admit it if you are. Like an actual narcotics officer is going to go "Aw darn it; you caught me!" and not bust you if he can.??????? But I shared that in a thread once and Ex thought it was funny and since then we have bantered the term 'arc' back and forth occasionally as though it was some sort of degree of spiritual enlightenment. Who wants to be a MOG when you can be an arc?

Rocky: Correction. There is a city in Michigan approximately 50 miles west of Detroit called Hell. I once went there in the winter. I saw Hell freeze over. First hand account. I was there.