Refiner

Hey my three: Goey might well be right. The bear mauled children might well have been 30 year old Baal worshippers denigrating God. I cant say. Nor can I see that in a surface reading of the text itself. But then Im not a researcher into Greek / Hebrew word meanings like most here are, and which Goey is an expert in. A practise he apparently developed during his church experience, and which the church encouraged and fostered. My experience was different, although I must say there are some similarities between Goeys explanation of the children who were mauled by the bears, and the JW explanation that the thousands killed by plague after King David committed the “Census sin” were all wicked people anyway, preselected for extermination, and marked in the black book of death for the next time David botched the job and God found it necessary to send a punishing and selective plague thru the land to punish David. Yes, perhaps a correct understanding of the original language texts may well demonstrate it was a selective plague singling out only the unrighteous. I cant say. Personally Im more interested in how Goey developed his ability to read the true minds and thought patterns, thru the medium of a computer screen no less, of total strangers around the other side of the planet.

Goey has stated: Well I am pleased that you understand my “real” thinking more than I understand it myself. That must be a gratifying skill to possess, that of mind reader and comprehender of the motives and emotional history of other people. Hmm, well maybe theres a reason for that. Maybe its because God appears unfair and cruel in those scriptures, so that’s why the Atheists and agnostics use them to demonstrate that god is unfair and cruel. Im Just taking a wild stab in the dark guessing there. You mean that the “Children” the bear mauled were actually "adults"? And that to call someone “baldy” was actually calling out a rank blasphemy , a mockery, against God? Has it occurred to yourself that such explanations are generated by Christians who see the harshness of their OT God and feel the need to prove that He was justified in taking the action he did? Just a thought there.

That poor woman, of course, is now known to be completely innocent, and the baby was indeed taken by a dingo. Which any reasonable person knew to be the case at the time.

Steve, the time zone starts in the middle of the pacific ocean. America is at the very back end of the time zone. New Zealand leads the time zone with Aussie next. It is 7am Wednesday here currently. What is it there? 5pm Tuesday about?

Well Lindyhopper I will certainly have to read all the posts before opening my yap and commenting, and there are a LOT of posts since last I looked. I must say though, in answer to a couple of posters, yes, indeed there must be many Christians in China. Although it is not cultural historically. Looking at the geography, It would seem that in order to be "saved" and enter Christs Kingdom, one would have to have the good fortune to have been born in a country conquered by the former Roman Empire, or one of its former dominions.

It might be wise if I posted here that, living in Australia, the time difference between America and Australia is a most inconvenient one ( Aussie is always 15 hours ahead of American time)and when America is posting, I am at work. When america is at work, Aussie is asleep, etc. Thus, I am not ignoring people who address me. I am simply not present.

Well Ive reached some of my most profound understandings while in a straitjacket at the asylum Steve. ;)-->

Let me put it another way, there are no Christians in China. Must 1 billion Chinese go to Hell simply because they had the misfortune to be born in China?

Well Grizz, you say something indeed, and I thank you that you’ve offered an explanation. Now you say: Well I think the Canaanites dwelt in the Land before Israel got there and invaded it didn’t they? What are they supposed to do? Just move out and give up their lands to the invading horde? Of course they took up sword! Besides this, why was the Israelite national experience necessary as a preparation for Christs coming? God insisted,from my reading of scripture, that Israel be faithful as a NATION. An absurd notion to me, because a nation cant choose to be faithful, it is comprised of INDIVIDUALS who must choose to be faithful. The whole focus on National "good" and National "Evil" in the OT is fallacious to me. You also say: Now this implies the thing that is central to Racist Biblical doctrine. That goodness or evil is decided by blood, and that the mixing of blood or the polluting of your generations, results in wicked leanings. Yet this is not so, because how many pure blood peoples are there in America say? And the place is full of Born again Christians. So blood or Nationality has nothing to do with it. It is more to do with education.The notion that people are “Wicked” and needed destroying simply because they were born in Assyria is absurd to me. If it is absurd and fallacious, then Why did God promote it? Of course Grizz, Im not personally challenging your opinions, Im just trying to dig a little deeper in expressing my personal issue with the Bible.

You mean there IS no "table of challenge" steve? Well why have I been allowed to waste my time in the "Mastering" thread searching for it? :(--> No wonder I couldnt find it.

Hmmm. Well these are very unusual responses. I never heard anything like the notion that when "God" slays them for wanting Chicken in the Wilderness, then it wasnt God but they used the word "God" because they didnt have a word for Satan. Never heard that before. But then Ive never heard MOST stuff I hear on this site before! I like the idea that the ancient peoples were less intelligent than we are and could only grasp simple 'black/White' Principles of "Do" and "dont do". That one makes me feel very superior. Perhaps I'll accept that view failing a better offer.

The big boys have their own games Exy. Now I was looking for this "TABLE OF CHALLENGE" in the "Mastering" thread, but after 30 pages I gave up, in despair, hope of locating it. Can someone give me a link??

Im hoping that some one of the Christians here can explain the apparent contradict in Gods nature between the two Testaments to me. Maybe theres a reason for it.

Now when I was attending church as a young man, we never actually READ the bible. We read books and magazines that dispensed the church doctrine and looked up selectively quoted scriptures to confirm that the church doctrine was true. I never actually sat down and read the Bible, cover to cover, until I was about 30 years old. My reading of the Bible turned me against any ability to Worship the Biblical God, or by extension, follow after Jesus. The major sticking point for me was the difference in the nature of the two testaments. The (as I saw it) violent, unfair, blindly enraged Old Testament God who advocated exterminated entire races simply because they were descended from the blood of Cain or other persons who had committed sins of incest, or were directly descended from “City builders”. This is extermination based on blood purity, a notion any modern Christian rejects. This is where Biblical racists such as the ‘Christian Identity’ movement and Dan Gaymans ‘Church of Israel’ get their doctrine from in case you have ever wondered. It is RIGHT there in the Old Testament. I could not accept the Old Testament God who sent plague amongst peoples simply because they hungered for chicken while wandering in the wilderness. Struck people down because they complained about lack of water while wandering in the desert. I must say I asked “Why doesn’t He just give them water”? The Old Testament God who sent bears to maul children because they had called His prophet “Old Baldy”. Or struck down illegitimate babes because they were fathered from an act of Adultery with the wife of Urriah the Hittite. I decided such a God was not worthy of being worshipped. This logically, in my mind, extended over to an unwillingness to accept Jesus, as the Father and Son were the same entity, being a trinity. This is why I do not accept Christ. Can someone offer comment on these matters?

Sneaks in a post from the computer at work… Now a person asked how it could be that I declare that I don’t believe in Gods existence and then declare that I think Church organizations are “Satan manifesting as light”. Thus being in contradiction. Well, the answer is I didn’t say that. I said “If anything”, in other words, if there IS a God force, then in my opinion those churches are tools of the devil. So I hope that clears that one up. If there is a devil and I am forced to choose whether the JWitnesses are his tool or Gods tool, well I say it would have to be the former in my opinion. I don’t know whether theres a God or not , I haven’t seen Him. I haven’t seen the devil either, though it occurs to me that there are some rotten churches around, and if the devil does exist, well he is likely sat at the top of their feeding chain. Neither did I say that ALL churches are Satan in disguise. I would be a fool if I stated that, because I haven’t attended them all. I don’t know whether they are all tools of Deception or not. I only say that I reckon just about every one that Ive attended is a rotten mind manipulating cult in some way or other. Neither did I say that every single person who was ever recruited into a church was recruited during a period of “crisis in their lives”. I merely observed ( and there is a wealth of technical information to back my claim) that very frequently people ARE recruited into cults or churches during a personal crisis in their life. Across the board I hope I am not interpreted as making absolute declarations about ANYTHING at all. Because I know the complete answers to virtually nothing. I leave the uttering of absolutist statements to the VPWs of the world. Now Exy observed that she is glad that I am here. And I am glad too. Ive taken a real partiality to Exy and a whole lot of other people here, including Dmiller and many others. It is good that people here are willing to challenge you on everything you say and demand an explanation. Peace.

I am finding myself very moved in this thread DM. Moved indeed to tears. But I have to go to work now. Hopefully we can continue this when I return. Peace.

WB. Ive been being very careful on this site, but you force me to come clean. I hope I dont get howled down. The only God, if any, in my opinion, who operates thru organizations such as TWI , the JWs and Mormonism, is Satan. I believe they are deception masquerading as light. The fruit of them, fear, anger, estrangement from family, loss of wealth, etc, etc, etc, is the proof of what they really are. They are soul robbers.

WaterB says: Well WB, dont hold this against me, but I dont recognize the Bible so I cant honestly discuss it from a Biblical viewpoint. Still, I think it is possible that people enter such movements as TWI so that they can learn, from experience, what the face of rottenness truly looks like. Perhaps they are allowed to enter that experience so as to be able to help, later, others avoid the same pitfalls they fell into.

Blue Sunday writes: ...."In May 1975 I came to the end of my rope. I was lonely and very unhappy.I quit my job and put everything that I owned(which was not much)in my 1971 Volkswagen and headed for the Smoky Mountains. I had no idea that what I was about to do would so dramatically forever change my life.I told "God" that I was going as far into primitive camping as I could go to be alone. Up to this point, I never had much of a relationship with God except for the occasional "fire escape".I said "God,if you are real and you can hear me right now and you really do have a purpose for my life then I need to hear from you.".... My view is that this is a classic example of a crisis conversion. Often a person will, in their search for meaning, shuttle around between extreme positions example- Christianity/ Witchcraft, and then finding no satisfaction, get into a state of desperation. Once in the desperate state, all they need is a guru to come along and they are ready for conversion. It is only a matter of who gets to them first....JWs, TWI, or the Reverand Sun Myung Moon.

The views expressed pertaining to the "answered prayer" are not unique to TWI. Many people joining many different sects have had the same "mystical experience". A prayer, and an immediate answer with someone knocking on the door. Or an immediate phone call. As well, people might be wrestling with God, calling out to him when already in the sect and recieve an answer thru some mystical experience. So I think there must be another explanation. Of course, I AM a cynic.

Well ala pro, the practise of shunning is a most sore point with many that I have known. A painful practise. Unfortunately in some sects the practise is most extreme and much injury caused in the bonds between kin. Often, once you leave the sect and try to reestablish bonds with your estranged family, the damage is too deep. They cannot be truly restored. This is what I have personally found anyway.

Thanks for the advice Houseis. Im not planning on becoming a certifiable world class expert in TWI though. I just want enuff of an understanding so I can fathom what on earth Mike is talking about. :D-->

In the Jaydubs,People dont get "disfellowshipped" for sinning. They get disfellowshipped for failing to display sufficient "penitence". This means they are not under church control any longer. This means there is danger they may taint the congregation with their "wicked thinking". So Disfellowshipping isnt designed to assist the DFd,after all, noone TALKS to the DFd, not even their own family. Its designed to "protect" the sheep from "evil influence".

I was always of the impression that "mark and avoid" or "disfellowshipping" or whatever the particular movement calls it.. had the same root aim. Pretty much the same aim as is achieved by moving your church into the Guyana jungle. The control of flow of information. Being obsessed with what may enter into that spongelike brain we all possess, and not wanting anything going into your brain other than what they spew forth, the church leaders naturally see the danger in the passing of information thru external association. And what information could be less desirable than that which an excommunicated member may have to offer. Especially if theyve done their history research.

House is. I think after Ive read 4 key books I'll have a fair enough grounding in the fundamentals to declare myself an expert. :D--> Actually i dont think I want to read Martindale. Ive certainly noticed that few here talk about doctrine under Martindales rule.