Refiner

JWs only celebrate the anniversary of Christs Death, Tom. It is the ONLY celebration they advocate. Once a year at about 7pm they gather to pass the crackers and Grapejuice around. Its a dull party, let me tell you.

Raf. You are correct. That is board policy everywhere really. Sorry about that,I didnt think. Now as to the book Well I have to announce, Ive read many a hundred books published by assorted crazy cults but...well...Ive never read anything quite like this. Ive only read the first section "The power of believing". Im still in recovery and will need a while to absorb what I read!

It used to belong to someone. Anybody we know ? Page 7: "If that is the first and great commandment, then what is the first and great sin?.... hewing out our own religious systems, our own ideologies, our own thinking patterns.."

yes. PFAL arrived today. Oh yay! Well its a real pretty book, hardback with an orange cover and very important looking gold writing on it. Anyways, Im so excited that I might just rush over to Amazon and buy "New dynamic Church". Oh happy day. :D-->

If you think this is bad, wait till I get the Wierwille books and start in an examination of VPW and TWI. :D-->

Considering people are talking of “present truth”…. As an interesting example of continuously shifting “present truth”, the JWitness understanding pertaining to 1975AD still stands as a classic example, and the repercussions from that prediction are still not finished even yet. Originally the date was set in 1966 and there were two lines of Biblical proof offered to support the expectation. Pertaining to the chief of these two proofs: That 6000 years of “Human History” would expire in 1975. In other words 6000 years since the creation of Adam. After nothing occurred in 1975 the Watchtower rulers “humbly returned to the scriptures” to “discover what God had to teach them” about the matter. They soon learned that 1975 was indeed the date 6000 years since the creation of ADAM, but not since the Creation of the first HUMAN PAIR, which must logically include Eve. After all, how could “Human history” truly commence until there was a pair to commence breeding?? --> Thus there must be a time delay equal to the amount of time that Adam was alone in the garden of Eden naming animals. So far it looks as though Adam was alone at least 29 years!! Little wonder then that he declared “this is AT LAST flesh of my flesh” upon sight of the woman. Lol. :D--> But of course, all this only goes to demonstrate that, not only their original “truths”, but even their later revealed “truths” justifying the altering of the original “truth” need altering themselves in time. After all, how long will they be able to hold to the notion that we are in a period of time equivalent to Adams “being alone” in Eden? Certainly not indefinitely. So in time the “Eve” rationale will reach the point of untenability and will have to be explained away by another interpretation that, in due course will also need explaining away. It is an endless ongoing cycle. :(-->

As long as people listen to my soapbox speeches I dont care which street corner its on.

Hey Tref. "Present Truth" is a term used by the JayDubs. Im sure you get the picture. It is the "truth" you have recieved by a very dim light that gets "brighter and brighter". Unfortunately their lamps keep going out and they have to relight on a regular basis.

There have been 7000 members of the heavely class remaining for as log as I can remember. They simply will not DIE! -->

Regarding the 144,000 co rulers with Christ. In 1881AD The Watchtower publication a nnounced that the door to the heavenly calling was shut. The 144,000 were sealed and merely awaited the rapture. Sometime later the door was opened again. One assumes it was opened again so that those who joined the organization in 1882AD might have a "hope". --> Later still, in 1935AD, two classes were formally created. Those called to heaven, and those who must reside on earth. The vast majority of JayDubs consider themselves of the earthly class. There are supposedly about 7000 remaining of the heavenly class on earth. One assumes that the necessity for the creation of a seperate earthly "class" was made clear to the organizational heirachy by a revelation from God that there were 300,000 members of the church and too many to go to heaven. -->

Well thats a good question Tref. Actually, its a matter that Ive only once noticed the Watchtower org answer. The answer they gave was that each tribe symbolized certain types of personality. One might be exceptionally compassionate and just. so 12000 compassionate and just men comprised 1 "tribe". But this interpretation has been abandoned now, and the organization seldom explains the matter. I assume they think the 12000 x 12 subdivision is symbolic. You get the picture. That interpretation comes way back from a 1917AD book called "The Finished Mystery", a book that is much mentioned in JW lore, that noone has actually READ, because it has disappeared from the Libraries. Of course the reason for its disappearance is that it contains many sayings that contradict current doctrine. Of interest also is how so many women comprise of the 144000, yet these have no input into church meetings, yet these women are supposedly co rulers with Christ over an organization that they never publicly teach in. --> Not to mention the fact that the 144000 understanding is interpreted as a LITERAL 144000 persons, yet the 12000 x 12 subdivision is not literal. The Watchtower is notorious for getting themselves into interpretive tangles like this one.

Prisca. 21 replies to 11.

Upon reflection there was public chastisement in the JWitnesses too. This was inaugurated in the early 70s and, curiously, I was the first victim of the practise (Called “Public Reproof”) in my congregation (twig). I must say it was mild, merely a very public announcement made at the “Service meeting” (a meeting for the initiated, not the general public). Still, despite its being relatively mild, the consequences were groans of despair on behalf of members of the congregation, and ostracism. Noone talked to me afterwards and I found who my friends were. Of course, the theory behind confession, repentance and public reproof is that the erring one will turn from his way, and that he will receive loving support and guidance from the “shepherds” who are so concerned over the “one lost sheep”. But the assistance and support never happens. The shepherds are to busy searching out hidden sin to have time to oil the heads of the sinners who have repented.

Why thats just terrible George. Of course, I imagine, and you indicate, such things wouldnt occur in any meeting where a member of the public , a potential recruit, might be in attendance. As you seemed to say, these things happened in corps meetings. They are the preserve of the initiated. You would want to open the newspaper ans see the headline: "Church leader screeches abuse at weeping and pregnant member"

The Channel will never admit to being wrong. I have never seen it occur. Usually the channel will blame the followers for everything that goes wrong. A)The followers misunderstood what was said and expected more than was promised. B)The followers are too sinful to recieve the promise and need to be purged of sin. These are the usual excuses. Another common excuse is that practises of Pure Worship need to be reinitiated, and apparent persecutions and hardship were a "Wakeup call" to the church to prepare it for the re revelations of the practise lost since apostolic times. That is a fairly common one. Now the Channel will never accept responsibility for ant failure of any kind. If pressed, the organization will blame persons in position of power. Say the Jehovahs Witness organization may blame the writing department and purge the top men out of that department. But only if pressed. Adventists are especially interesting in this regard, Adventists blame EVERYBODY involved in the early days of the organization for the failure of things. Everybody except Ellen G White that is. But then, Ellen G White is The Channel

Individuals were singled out for public criticism and castigation?? If this has occurred as indicated, Im staggered. The only higher level of abuse than this is public physical humiliation such as being sexually abused in public, or being publicly beaten.When you talk that level you are talking Jim Jones and Shoko Asahara. Regarding the fact that I can successfully predict what the TWI sheep told themselves, and what the TWI organization told them as to the causes of failure to manifest perfection into their lives.....Well...they are exactly the same reasonings , excuses and lies used in a thousand cults. So its not hard.

Hey Priscilla. My thread is under this one and its a masterpiece, yet Ive only got 11 replies. :(--> You come on here and post FLUFF about chocolate and get 16 replies. Why is that huh? Not happy

Oh, Weak and sinful generation. Did the church authorities ever have to resort to public castigation of members? Were people shamed and abused publicly? By this I mean were individuals publicly abused? Im curious. If this occurred then "The Way" is right up there in the highest levels of being an abusive cult.

Well UH. I suppose when VPW makes statements like this: QUOTE: “When you find yourself in one of life’s prison’s, get a positive, clear picture of your freed self. Focus in on the positive image and thank God that right now you have the answer. Keep confessing and believing positively according to The Word, and your release will absolutely follow.”END QUOTE And you apply the methods espoused, and they dont work, it has to be SOMEBODIES fault and it cant be Gods fault cause Hes perfect now isn’t he? :)--> As you said: QUOTE: “Believing equals receiving... That one opened the can of worms that led to self condemnation, guilt, feelings of inadequecy, misconceptions concerning God's role in your life, a belief that there was a power in your mind that could effect external forces,”END QUOTE I guess you all just weren’t holy enough to receive the reward. You weren’t able to keep your mind believing clearly enough, for long enough, to make it happen. Sigh. Such a shame.

As a notation, I might say that, although in the literature believers in Aliens talk of spaceships and aliens, once one actually get involved in the group it becomes clear that these are not reallyliteral ships of metal. Rather they are spirit entities that reside in higher dimensions. "Aliens" have in fact replaced the spirit beings that used to be contacted by practisers of spiritism. Alien channelling has largely replaced 19th century spiritist churches. But it is the same thing wearing a more modern coat.

A brief explanation of the world view of channellers of “higher Dimensional” wisdom. The view of our human experience in a lot of Alien/Ascended Masters teachings is that each one of us is a fragment of “God Consciousness” is in fact an “aspect” of a God consciousness that has shattered itself into shards and is experiencing third dimensional physicality. Why is the God Consciousness doing this? Because it is a thing that hungers to grow and learn. It seeks new experience. They call these shards “aspects” and they call the experience itself “fragmentation” and many of them preach that the time has come to return to the “oneness” . This “oneness” (God) exists at a higher dimension. Exactly which dimension depends on which group you are attending, It could be 5Th Dimension, 7th dimension, or Ive heard dimensions as high as 11th Dimension touted by some ‘channellers’ of these Aliens / Ascended masters. Among the many and varied teachings espoused by these channellers is the wisdom pertaining to “Manifestation”. This is achieved thru Creative Visualization, and the power of the spoken word. A power inherent in each one of us but “forgotten” while we reside within the aspect of our 3rd dimensional physicality. It is on this area of their teachings that I am posting here. I have already quoted from the writings of a Melbourne man, John Stone, who ran an Ascended Masters/Alien channelling group affiliated with the “Ashtar Command.” These people are basically Spiritists. They receive their wisdom either from dead human beings such as Jesus or St Germaine, persons who have made the transition successfully, or they speak the wisdom of “alien beings” who have never experienced physicality and who speak thru them from 4th dimension (or higher) after taking possession of their body. Pertaining to how Manifestation works, I quote more extensively from Mr Stone. I quote Mr Stone because he is very easy reading for the ‘uninitiated’, and all quotes are from his book- “Manifesting money and situations in your life” He says: QUOTE: “When you think, you create energies in spirit substance at higher dimensions. All thought manifests in energy…The truth is that all ‘visible’ effects flow out from seemingly invisible causes on higher vibratory frequencies.. (higher dimensions)… That which we call the real world , that in which we perceive we exist, is Third Dimension. Surrounding this planet is a vibratory dimension, 4th Dimension which is the astral plane, which, although it is a dimension totally occupied by spirit beings, it is a dimension of great limitation- of opposites, of good and bad, joy and sorrow, with different vibratory frequencies within that plane separating the ‘good’ from the ‘bad’. 5th Dimension and higher are planes of great light and devoid of opposites. They are planes of immediate manifestation”…..END QUOTE. Thus it becomes a matter of whether the channeller is receiving his channelled wisdom from lower 4th dimension, higher 4th dimension, or 5th, or 6th. The higher the better. Pertaining to the power of manifestation within 5th dimension, Stone continues: QUOTE: “ There is absolutely no delay in manifesting that which is called forth. It is done by picturing the desired outcome, and assuming the feeling of already having it….whenever you, on planet earth, create a picture in your imagination , it is immediately formed in molecules of higher dimensional structure. On planet earth you are the perfect manifester of events in your life. They are manifested by your thoughts, by the words you speak, and by your feelings.” END QUOTE. I might add that this “manifestation power” can be taken a step further than merely visualizing that which you desire. The other senses such as Olfactory, Kinesthetic, and Auditory can be employed to enhance the creative process. Now of course, being that we are aspects of God able to manifest any desire we so wish, why is it that so many of us reside in lack, and in despair much of the time? Stone explains that a time lag occurs between the manifestation in 5th dimension, and its generation into 3rd dimensional “reality”. It takes a little time to “trickle down”. Unfortunately, during the trickle down period the person experiences doubt, and this doubt, or ‘lack of belief ‘which Stone calls “the feeling of not having”, manifests perfectly into ‘not having’ in reality. Thus a continuous purity of thought and specifically of INTENT is needed to be held while waiting for that ‘willed into being’ to manifest into physicality. Few are able to hold firm to the belief long enough for it to form into 3D “reality”. Another explanation about the power of manifestation inherent in each of us: http://cornerstone.wwwhubs.com/gawain2.htm It occurred to me, while reading Rafs thread about Wierwilles “Blue Book” that there appeared to be some similarities between the techniques espoused by the “Ascended masters/ Aliens” and the methods of self improvement espoused by VPW. That is the reason I post this thread here. Of course readers may completely disagree and I would welcome any correction or comment offered. After all, I haven’t even read the ‘blue book’ yet, so go easy on me!

Well as I understand it Amway doesn t make its money selling cleaning fluid of washing powder. Amway makes its mnoney selling motivational tapes and seminars to the suckers who have bought the dream of becoming a "Double Diamond", super salesperson/ motivator of others. Most of the Amwayites I met were poor desperate sods putting in hours and hours getting nowhere and trying to get their minds right enough so they could successfully sell the idea to others and thus climb another rung up the old pyramid. The JWitnesses never made any money from their "bookselling concern" (Which is what it ultimately was)selling books to the public. They got their money from compulsory monthly quotas of books and magazines flogged to the flock.

I think theres a very great tendancy, especially on the part of media to oversimplify a thing and merely label the cult leader as an evil manipulator. Manipulating people with Wilful intent to take advantage and abuse people.Its a simple explanation for mass media consumption. I used to view it that way myself, but after reading a large number of Histories, especially of Jim Jones, and listening to heaps of tapes recorded within meetings of his movement, I decided that even Jim boy,who is regarded generally as the most evil "cult" leader of last century, was not so wilfully evil as might be assumed. His ministry started off with high intentions and very great ideals, as so many cults do. The descent into paranoia and horrifying manipulation comes after years of isolation from criticism and is justified in the mind of the leader step by step. I recall a few years back, Richard Carlton, on 60 minutes interviewed the leader of a manipulative cult called "The Pod", calling the man an evil manipulator and wilfull brainwasher. It was quite obvious the man was utterly confused and hurt by Carltons attitude. This is my view. I pray God its the correct view and there are not really wilfully evil people out there, deliberately planning to abuse and manipulate the sheep. No goey. I havent read that book.

The only 1 Id imagine must have known he was a deceptive ratbag was L Ron Hubbard.There were too many lies published for him not to know he was a crumb. The kind of manipulation methods used by the Moonies in the 70s are now being applied daily by telemarketers calling you on the phone, and by high pressure hawkers coming to your door. Does anyone believe that these people go to classes where they are told that they are going to apply these methods to deliberately take advantage of people? I think not.

Ive come to the opinion that virtually none of these people are perpetrating deliberate deception. They rationalize it all to themselves and think the things they do are justified in the pursuit of a higher goal. Amway is certainly one of the most manipulative organizations its ever been my misfortune to be involved with, but I encountered noone there who considered that misleading someone into attending an Amway recruitment meeting under the guise of a "party" was practising deliberate deception. They tell themselves that it IS a party, after all, there are balloons hanging up. And they tell themselves they are doing you a favour recruiting you to the movement, after all..."think of all that money", and visualize how you are going to spend it all!