Refiner

Resident curmudgeon: Well bless me! Thanks for that bit of advice. I'll be sure to drop the "bless" word aplenty so that I adjust to fitting into an ex TWI mindset all the quicker. I want to fit in. Bless you brother.

Oldisman wrote: It causes one to wonder... if you can gain greater rewards in heaven by doing extra works while on earth, then heaven cant be COMPLETELY "heavenly" for those who havent gone that extra mile while in the physical. I wonder what the ones who put in greater effort get "beyond the veil"... a bigger mansion? One seat closer to Jesus side?

PFAL....PFAL.... (looks up PFAL on Way International "Loaded language List") PFAL!!... "Power for Abundant Living". Got it!! It sure is hard on this site.... I never seen so much abbreviation and 'insider speak' in my life. Cynic. I dont think upon matters of what I believe anymore. I spent twenty five years dwelling upon such questions and came up with zip. So I figure the answers are either so deep as to be unfathomable, or the complete obvious and apoparent is true, and there is no conscious being directing things.

TomS and WW: ."Don't post it here WW! I'll point him in the right direction via PT!"... You are concealing information from me. :(-->Information that Im most interested in reading. :D--> Cough it up. Email me, if you're paranoid at all. jimpimpepper@hotmail.com

Perhaps its time to clarify. I utterly reject any notion of a conscious God, a person, a thinking supreme being. Why? On the basis of having seen and experienced so much unspeakable cruelty and psychic damage being worked in his name. If it was me, I would have to put an end to it. That is my final position on such matters.

I stayed because I knew nothing else and was trapped. There was noone outside who would save me. They might rape, rob and murder me, but they wouldnt save me. Internally, I had to watch my thoughts. God, of course, knew everything, heard everything. I developed a habit of only half thinking a thought that I felt he might disapprove of.

I fell into sin. I was led and guided thru the chain links leading to "sin" by a girl at work. Once I was in love with her, there was no way to stop the "sin". My heart and mind were torn between church elders and family telling me to stop "sinning" and the longings of my own heart to continue on in the course of "sin". Fortunately I followed my own will and desire....or Id likely be in there even yet.

Grizzy. I love Mormonism. Its amazing stuff. As youd probly know Joe Smith revealed that "Zion" would touch down/be built in Jackson County, Missouri. Unfortunately Governor Boggs of Missouri thought otherwise and the Mormons got their butts run out of the state, indeed, out of the entire mid west at gun point. After that Joe had to blame the congregations waywardness, lustfullness, and "lack of faith" for Gods refusal to fullfill His promises. Still, far as I know, Independence Missouri is still the centrepoint of "zion",and all the other Mormon centres, congregations, etc are "Stakes" radiating out from the central point.

Oldiesman wrote: "Once you're born again, or saved, or converted (via Romans 10:9) you are heaven bound and no power from hell can stop you from going. You have eternal life and will be in God's kingdom with Jesus Christ forever." Well how come then you have to go on WOW tours, tithe, attend 5 meetings and gawd knows what else a week if being "born again" is enough? How do Wayers rationalize on that? Is there greater heavenly reward for those who go the extra yards? Sort of like Joe Smiths three tiered Mormon heaven?

Hot damn. The opening post in this thread is a great post. Very informative and great work Reverend Raf.

Dont quite follow you WW. If youre saying the guy claimed to know what Jesus favourite reading material was, well Id say that he was obviously privvy to the divine mind and was especially blessed among men. -->

Increased numbers at meeting attendance. How else can you rate Gods blessing on the congregation? Lol

To clarify perhaps ultimately, what I would describe the JW church to be like...I would say Unemotional. It is the dryest, most unemotional church Ive ever seen. Displays of passion or feeling are...well...they are just not done. It all purports to be using "reasoning" agruements and I never heard an elder yell, or saw a tear in the eye of a person during a meeting in 20 years of attendance. Emotion is...well, it would be showing weakness. Emotions have to be guarded carefully, lest the devil enter in. About the most outlandish and most humane spark youll encounter in a meeting in a dub church is a subdued titter if the guy on the stage cracks one of those endlessly repeated lame 'insider' gags in the course of his speech. When I first went to a Mormon meeting and saw the bishop get tears in his eyes while praising the ladies auxiliary for their hard work...frankly..I was flaberghasted. Id never seen such a public display.

Damn, theres some funny lines in this thread: Ex Cath: …“of course here you go, guzzle guzzle guzzle .... you spiritually sweet person” WordWolf: …“those are things the corpse was expected to do” AlfaKat: …“can hardly think of a greater waste of time outside of SNS hookups and bore night hookups and, oh yeah, 4 hour plus TC meetings. Except for maybe bore week” Too damn funny guys.

All of the cults claim some kind of divine mandate. At the least to be in contact with a higher power or to have a guaranteed method to create success and plenty. It is the key by which they enslave the minds of their followers. A classic example of a man directly claiming to be GOD is the leader of a group called Heavens Gate a group which committed mass suicide in April 1997. The leader of this group, Mr Applewhite ( more commonly known as "Do") explains his divine authority in a tract entitled : "Undercover Jesus surfaces before departure". Therin he says: .... " This 'return' requires that I prepare to lay down my borrowed human body in order to take up, or re enter, my body belonging to the Kingdom of God, as I did 2000 years ago, as Jesus, when I laid down the human body that was about 33 years old in order to re enter my body belonging to the Kingdom of Heaven.. This time, my Heavenly Father, my older member, came with me. In the early 70s we incarnated into adult human bodies that were in their 40s. 2000 years ago I incarnated into a body that was 29 years old .at the time of baptism by John the Baptist"... The leader of the Raelians, Rael, while not actually being Jesus, is closely relatedto Jesus. Rael received a very important revelation 3 years after he was initially taken by aliens to their planetary utopia. However the deeply significant revelation was kept under lock and key until the world was ready to receive it. Eventually though, in 1986, it was revealed to those with 'eyes of understanding' in his book : Lets Welcome Our Fathers From Space Page 112 Tells us, (Yahweh is speaking to Rael) : ...."The person who you looked upon as your father was not your father.We selected a woman.this woman was taken aboard one of our ships and inseminated as we had done with the mother of Jesus..Your real father was also the father of Jesus, and that makes you brothers. You are presently looking at your real father..From this moment on you may call me father, because you are my son".. Deeply moving isn't it, to discover that Rael is actually the son of Yahweh, and the latter day Jesus. Superior even to Jesus, really, because he brings the FINAL message to humanity wheras Christ only laid the path which Rael walks upon. These are pretty direct claims of divine mandate due to being a divine creature. But some of the larger and more established 'cults' do not go quite so far. The Mormon prophet, Joseph Smith, while not actually being divine himself, was personally appointed by both Yahweh and Jesus to restore Gospel practises to the earth. The famous "first vision" of Joseph Smith is recorded ad nauseum in numerous Mormon publications. Here is the account from a book called: Gospel Principles The prophet himself speaking : ... " I saw a pillar of light exactly above my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me..When the light rested upon me I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing unto the other- This is my Beloved Son, hear Him! ".. I wont tax the readers intelligence by recounting what the "Beloved Son" said next. The Adventist Prophet, b]Ellen G White[/b] while not actually having MET God, HAS met Jesus and held conversation with him while on a guided tour of heaven. This is still, surely, more Divine authority than the rest of us can claim.The Adventist tract : A Word to the Little Flock published in May 1847 by her husband, James White, adequately describes her being whisked off, John like, to heaven to meet Christ: .... "While praying at the family alter the Holy Ghost fell upon me, and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world". Straight to heaven along with the rest of the 144,000. Well, after what must have been a very tiresome journey of 7 DAYS that is: . "We all entered the cloud together, and were 7 days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought along the crowns and with his own right hand placed them upon our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory"... A bright and shiny building soon caught her attention: .... "I asked Jesus to let me see what was within there. In a moment we were winging our way upwards and entering in. Here we saw good old father Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel and many like them".... So even this is sufficient authority to establish a person as having the right to direct the lives of millions of Church followers. But then, the most extreme and dangerous cult I ever personally was involved with was led by a triumvirate of three women, one of whom was merely in contact with a highly advanced alien called Elonias. Proof positive that you don't have to claim to be GOD to start a cult. Claiming to merely be in communication with The angel Gabriel will suffice very nicely.

DM. I think from a Christian perspective... for a supposedly Christian church, The JWs are about as distant from the ransom power of Christs Blood as its possible to get.. and still dare call yourself "Christianity"

Gooey. Based on what you say there the Way movements "worship manifestations" of Tonguespeak and Prophecy are handled very similarly to the way they are handled in the Lloyd Longfield movement, Revival Centres International. A dub is a Jehovahs Witness, Jay W, Jay Dub, Dub. ;)-->

Gooey. Based on what you say there the Way movements "worship manifestations" of Tonguespeak and Prophecy are handled very similarly to the way they are handled in the Lloyd Longfield movement, Revival Centres International. A dub is a Jehovahs Witness, Jay W, Jay Dub, Dub. ;)-->

I thought Is throw in a few loaded terms that Im personally familiar with: "Jehovah, Jesus, 144,000, Remnant, Governing Body, Zone Overseer, Branch Overseer, District Overseer, Circuit Overseer, Congregation Presiding Overseer, Elder, Ministerial Servant,Pioneer, Regular Publisher, Inactive Publisher, Disassociated person, disfellowshipped person, Apostate." There you go, the feeding chain top to bottom. :D--> Currently in the heirachy I occupy the position of bottom feeding scum.

I thought Is throw in a few loaded terms that Im personally familiar with: "Jehovah, Jesus, 144,000, Remnant, Governing Body, Zone Overseer, Branch Overseer, District Overseer, Circuit Overseer, Congregation Presiding Overseer, Elder, Ministerial Servant,Pioneer, Regular Publisher, Inactive Publisher, Disassociated person, disfellowshipped person, Apostate." There you go, the feeding chain top to bottom. :D--> Currently in the heirachy I occupy the position of bottom feeding scum.

A recent Way publication is quoted with the following term being used pertaining to home fellowship meetings: That is a most peculiar turn of phrase. What does it mean?

A recent Way publication is quoted with the following term being used pertaining to home fellowship meetings: That is a most peculiar turn of phrase. What does it mean?

Okay. WW.(and all)Many thanks. I have printed all the pages out and have a complete list of your "LOADED lANGUAGE" :P--> I'll be sure to refer to it in future when trying to decipher incomprehensible posts! :D-->

Okay. WW.(and all)Many thanks. I have printed all the pages out and have a complete list of your "LOADED lANGUAGE" :P--> I'll be sure to refer to it in future when trying to decipher incomprehensible posts! :D-->

Raf and WW, Its intetesting that the elite "class" is created, allegedly to act as a "servant" to its brothers, yet it invariably turns into a ruling class with absolute authority, dictating all aspects of existance to the witless sheep. Hideous. WordWolf says: Ahh... Thats about it.