Refiner

Raf. The lines are widely spaced and a lot of the pages consist of appendices. Its still a lot to swallow though.

Based on Goeys post it was definitely a tree, not a pyramid.

Further from "The Great Controversy" (1888 edition). QUOTE: The mistake had not been in the reckoning of the prophetic periods, but in the event to take place at the end of the 2300 days. Through this error the believers had suffered disappointment, yet all that was foretold by the prophecy, and all that they had any Scripture warrant to expect, had been accomplished. At the very time when they were lamenting the failure of their hopes, the event had taken place which was foretold by the message.End Quote. Astute readers will note the profession of penitence and unworthyness on the part of Church Followers and Leaders. This "penitence" sets the stage for the necessity of Purification within the church. QUOTE..."But the people were not yet ready to meet their Lord. There was still a work of preparation to be accomplished for them. Light was to be given, directing their minds to the temple of God in heaven; and as they should by faith follow their High Priest in His ministration there, new duties would be revealed. Another message of warning and instruction was to be given to the church. Says the prophet: "Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth?" It only remains for the "Lost" pure worship rituals to be revealed by Revelation: QUOTE: Within the holy of holies, in the sanctuary in heaven, the divine law is sacredly enshrined--the law that was spoken by God Himself amid the thunders of Sinai and written with His own finger on the tables of stone.Those who arrived at an understanding of this important point were thus led to see the sacred, unchanging character of the divine law. They saw, as never before, the force of the Saviour's words: "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law." .. "All His commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever." ..In the very bosom of the Decalogue is the fourth commandment, as it was first proclaimed: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy....The Spirit of God impressed the hearts of those students of His word. The conviction was urged upon them that they had ignorantly transgressed this precept by disregarding the Creator's rest day. They had been honestly seeking to know and to do God's will; now, as they saw themselves transgressors of His law, sorrow filled their hearts"... End Quote. It may be (as in the Jehovahs Witnesses) that there is "false worship" ritual being practised that needs be abandoned. This is the reason the Church was not worthy to recieve Him at the appointed time. But in the Adventist case it is necessary that the observation of the "Sabbath" be reinaugurated. The Sabbath observation doctrine was revealed...from memory...about 18 months after the 1844 "Disappointment". The Cycle is complete. Now of course it is very possible that this notion applies not only to predictions but to the necessity to change any major doctrine within the Church, and I was wondering whether readers can think of any parallel occurences within TWI history. Many thanks.

In another Thread, a poster mentioned that a comment I made about Predictive Failure and the ratiuonalization therof was worthy of a thread. So heres the thread. Having done some research on the subject I feel justified in saying that the explaining away of failed Predictions in cults tends to follow a specific pattern. I wont even demonstrate this pattern from Jehovahs Witnesses, the cult I was involved in, rather, I will demonstrate it from Adventism. Reference is : "The Great Controversy" (1888) Author, Ellen G White. Chapter: "What is the Sanctuary ?" QUOTE:... "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14. These had been familiar words to all believers in the Lord's soon coming. By the lips of thousands was this prophecy repeated as the watchword of their faith. All felt that upon the events therein foretold depended their brightest expectations and most cherished hopes. These prophetic days had been shown to terminate in the autumn of 1844. In common with the rest of the Christian world, Adventists then held that the earth, or some portion of it, was the sanctuary. They understood that the cleansing of the sanctuary was the purification of the earth by the fires of the last great day, and that this would take place at the second advent. Hence the conclusion that Christ would return to the earth in 1844. But the appointed time had passed, and the Lord had not appeared. The believers knew that God's word could not fail; their interpretation of the prophecy must be at fault; but where was the mistake? Many rashly cut the knot of difficulty by denying that the 2300 days ended in 1844. No reason could be given for this except that Christ had not come at the time they expected Him. They argued that if the prophetic days had ended in 1844, Christ would then have returned to cleanse the sanctuary by the purification of the earth by fire; and that since He had not come, the days could not have ended"..End quote. So, expected events not occuring on time, they diligently Searched the scriptures. Searching for "new light" from the Lord. QUOTE:... "To accept this conclusion was to renounce the former reckoning of the prophetic periods. The 2300 days had been found to begin when the commandment of Artaxerxes for the restoration and building of Jerusalem went into effect, in the autumn of 457 B.C. Taking this as the starting point, there was perfect harmony in the application of all the events foretold in the explanation of that period in Daniel 9:25-27. Sixty-nine weeks, the first 483 of the 2300 years, were to reach to the Messiah, the Anointed One; and Christ's baptism and anointing by the Holy Spirit, A.D. 27, exactly fulfilled the specification. In the midst of the seventieth week, Messiah was to be cut off. Three and a half years after His baptism, Christ was crucified, in the spring of A.D. 31. The seventy weeks, or 490 years, were to pertain especially to the Jews. At the expiration of this period the nation sealed its rejection of Christ by the persecution of His disciples, and the apostles turned to the Gentiles, A.D. 34. The first 490 years of the 2300 having then ended, 1810 years would remain. From A.D. 34, 1810 years extend to 1844. "Then," said the angel, "shall the sanctuary be cleansed." All the preceding specifications of the prophecy had been unquestionably fulfilled at the time appointed. With this reckoning, all was clear and harmonious, except that it was not seen that any event answering to the cleansing of the sanctuary had taken place in 1844. To deny that the days ended at that time was to involve the whole question in confusion, and to renounce positions which had been established by unmistakable fulfillments of prophecy."End Quote. Be it noted that the last consideration possible is that The SACRED MATHEMATICS could be in error . 2520 - 607 = 1914!! Who can deny that is true?? QUOTE... "The question, What is the sanctuary? is clearly answered in the Scriptures. The term "sanctuary," as used in the Bible, refers, first, to the tabernacle built by Moses, as a pattern of heavenly things; and, secondly, to the "true tabernacle" in heaven, to which the earthly sanctuary pointed. At the death of Christ the typical service ended. The "true tabernacle" in heaven is the sanctuary of the new covenant. And as the prophecy of Daniel 8:14 is fulfilled in this dispensation, the sanctuary to which it refers must be the sanctuary of the new covenant. At the termination of the 2300 days, in 1844, there had been no sanctuary on earth for many centuries. Thus the prophecy, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed," unquestionably points to the sanctuary in heaven.Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming."End Quote. At last, Light! Of course, the "Fair weather" believers will not SEE the newly revealed truth of the INVISIBLE FULFILLMENT. But those with understanding shall see thru the eyes of faith. And so the LITERAL expectation becomes fullfilled in a SPIRITUAL or INVISIBLE event. So the Adventist prophecy was deemed to have been fulfilled invisibly. The expected literal return in 1844 became the Invisible return of 1844. QUOTE:... The mistake had not been in the reckoning of the prophetic periods, but in the event to take place at the end of the 2300 days. Through this error the believers had suffered disappointment, yet all that was foretold by the prophecy, and all that they had any Scripture warrant to expect, had been accomplished. At the very time when they were lamenting the failure of their hopes, the event had taken place which was foretold by the message..End Quote Now that is not the end of the sequence, included in the sequence is the discovery of the necessity of reinaugurating "Pure Worship" rituals that have been, until this time, lost to the Church. I'll post details on that in a second post I think.

House is. Well this thread is wandering around a bit. I dont consider youve derailed anything. On other matters. relevant to dispensations of equal time length... Ive often wondered if it could be claimed that the period of favour to the jews could be claimed as a "dispensation of the Father" and the period since Christs Baptism claimed as a "Dispensation of the Son", and these periods be established as of equal length. Extending from this it could then be claimed that we are entering upon a "dispensation of the spirit" in our own day. Just a theory of mine, but I havent done the math on it.

Thanks WyteD. If he was at headquarters and in the church research department, Then I would suggest that he put everything on the line in expressing his views.He had plenty to lose. Yeah, I think hes a hero. Maybe not a great big hero, but a hero none the less.

Well Steve Lortz… everyone, Regarding Pyramids in Egypt, the problem with it from a JayDub perspective are the terms in which it was referred to in Russells (JW founder) writings: “The Testimony of Gods Stone Witness and Prophet” is the title of the chapter in Russells volume 2 “Scripture Studies” (Thy Kingdom Come) That sets the pace for what followeth: Quote:“The Great Pyramid proves to be a storehouse of important Truth- scientific, historic, prophetic” Quote: “Its construction was planned and directed by the same divine wisdom, and it is the Pillar of Witness referred to by the prophet” Quote: “The truths of revelation are owned and testified to by the same great author in this wonderful Stone Witness”. Quote: “Its wonderful correspondencies with the Bible leave no room for doubt that the same Divine Inspirer of the prophets and apostles inspired this witness also” Etc. Of course, all this hokum is claimed as a divinely revealed fact in support of chronological calculations pinpointing the end of the world. Having declared pyramid measurement calculations to be Divinely revealed “Truth” the author is left in something of a quandary when beliefs in the veracity of pyramid measurements becomes inconvenient due to failure of predicted events to materialize on time. From there it becomes a matter of how to justify those previously revealed “chronological truths” that failed to be realized. Ultimately, the most widely practised method of achieving this end is to get rid of the books, and, in time, enough time, deny you ever uttered such “truths”.

How high up in the organization was Schoenheit when he wrote that paper?

Quote: "We believe the early Church flourished rapidly because they operated within a Root, Trunk, Limb, Branch and Twig setup" Well, call it that, or call it: "Quorums of the 70s"/"Quorum of the 12"/ "Quorum of the First presidency"/"Prophet" I still call it a pyramid. Theres nothing clever about a pyramid structured organization. Theyre everywhere. Of course, the governing heirachy of TWI might use a "tree" analogy to convey the impression its organization is structured counter to the totalitarian pyramid, but the flow of power is still from the governing heirachy down. So a pyramid it is.

Mayb theyll let me buy a copy of PFAL online and ship it to me. (Refiner- "living in hope" class

Raf. Ultimately it bocomes a matter of misery ratio. If youre in a lovely church that is such a Utopia, why do you feel so horrible/ guilty/Fearful all the time?? Thats what ultimately gets people out I think.

PJRoberg said: Quote:"The rating system I developed doesn't use religious criteria to characterize a group as a cult ... TWI in my opinion is a category 5 militant cult on a scale of 6..." What criteria are those PJ? Id be most intertested in hearing your theory.

Steve Lortz. That looks very much like the kind of information used by Russell in his "Scripture Studies". He quotes Piazzi Smith also. Smith is the main source in Russells calculations.

A few years back now, I made contact with a woman here in Melbourne who was doing exit councelling on cult members and I expressed some interest in getting involved. The first thing she asked me was whether I believed in Jesus Christ. I said I didnt. Then she said "Well how can you councel people out of cults if you dont believe in Christ." Well, I was too stunned to reply. But I think if you are interested in planting future seed in peoples minds with the aim of waking them up to the cult they are in, then you are better off finding out what THEY are concerned with about their cult. Its no use throwing (say)a whole load of "False Prophecy" evidences at JWs. It doesnt work. You ask questions and, say, discover that they have had some miserable experiences with "judicial committees"who were harsh and unfeeling. Then you give them evidences of even more shockingly harsh judicial committee practises than even what they have experienced. You have to get off your own personal agenda / interest (false prophecy, or whatever) and get onto theirs. just my 2c.

I understand posters being suspicious of a "blow in" (visitor) like myself. I'll try to be more specific with what I post. Im a lazy writer.

JT. I had to re read your post 6 times before I finally grasped what you were getting at. I was sat there thinking "What have i said thats offended him" ?? I Couldnt see anything offensive for the life of me. But I understand now. I was talking about the women entering the coach entering by prearrangement. Not the two posters in this thread. :P--> Thanks for saving me AGAIN exy.

Hey Exy. Its a damn good job you are here to assist me, otherwise Id be in real trouble I reckon. JT. It simply occurred to me that Wierwille had a prearranged signal that he would give, then someone would enter the room and provide an excuse for him to end embarrassing conversations. It was only a thought. I have no evil intents on this site JT and would not intentionally offend anyone here. After all, Im a guest at your party. Im sure we will come to understand each other more as time passes.

Heres an excerpt from a chapter entitled: “Reaching Out” ..... Those ‘reaching out’ to 'serve' comprised, so far as I could see, two distinct types of men. There were those who were meek and mild. The compassionate ones, the caring ones, the quietly spoken ones who appeared innocent of any taint of worldly experience. These were often almost holy men whose eyes swam with the milk of human compassion. Then there were the natural commanders. These were the strong men, men who lead from force of personality. Leaders in a crisis. Often they were men of vast worldly experience, they had done the ‘worldly’ scene in the past, or experienced sin personally. My father fell into this latter category. Because the church was a sealed system, often those within it had scant experience of such things as say, adultery, or alcoholism, or running a business and dealing with corruption. My father had, and he must have seemed a most desirable option to assume a position of authority and direction within the local congregation. Such a mans experience would be useful sitting on a judicial committee hearing, and he would scarcely have been shocked to see what pulsed, beneath the veneer of the perfect society, within the dark hearts of members of the congregation..... ……………. .....The congregation heads, in discussing his appointment would have picked over the scripture passage in 1 Timothy. 3 verse 1 thru 7. There it espouses that a man reaching out for overseership must be: “moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, reasonable. Not a newly converted man” , lest he become blown up with feelings of self importance. Verses 4 and 5 say: “ a man presiding over his own house in a fine manner. Having children in subjection with all seriousness. If indeed a man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of Gods congregation”? In effect this meant that not only the prospective ‘older man’, but also his children must at least ‘appear’ to meet certain standards as well. Not only must my father appear to meet the mark set, but his wife must appear to reach the mark set for what a ‘spiritually advancing’ wife should look like. In my own case, those two verses in 1 Timothy chapter 3 were about to change everything forever. The first inkling of the impending days of doom came one evening when he took me into the back room for a one on one “man to man” chat. He even offered me a cup of tea. He opened with: “Now Jim, youre a good lad, a hard working lad, and your mother and I , well…we are aware of your contribution to things, what with John pioneering, your financial contributions are invaluable.” Further gushy praise followed and I got all hot in the face with a warm glow. Then he shifted position after a brief smile. “Moving on to other things….Now son, you’ve heard the talk that Ive been considered for a position within the congregation” I had, and I thought that was fine, if he wanted it. He DID want it. His eyeballs rolled toward the ceiling, “ Not exactly WANT it” he said “its more like…well, we have to sacrifice for others.” “The congregation has NEEDS….follow”? I followed. “Yes Jim….the church needs men who are WILLING” He clasped his hands in front of himself. “Men, Jim, who are willing to…put themselves out for others, put themselves under hardship to serve”. Did I see? I saw. However…there was just a slight hitch. The local leadership couldn’t appoint him. At least not just yet. “Whys that”? I asked. He steepled his fingers and stared into them a moment before speaking. “Well son, it appears that someone has ‘spoken out against me’ and accuses me of unfitness for the position” This stopped the conversation a moment, then he became very animated. “See, a leader has to be free from taint and accusation, even unfair accusation sometimes.” It was a terrible offence to ‘stumble’ a weak one, even someone who bore a personal grudge, as he suspected in this case. Though “strictly speaking, their accusation does have some foundation”. The air thickened. “What foundation”? I asked. “Well, Jim,’ he sighed ‘ the complaint is in connection with you”. He then went into a long spiel about my brother Johnny being such a fine pioneer at only 17, and here I was 18, and..well, I wasn’t even baptized. He said “See son….it just doesn’t LOOK” There was a long silence. I sure wasn’t eager to step into baptism. Baptized ones were responsible for their own salvation. Not only that, I was in a state of sin. Visions of Armaggedon death swam in my head. He asked, “Jim, what holds you back from the step”? “Nothing…nothing really ‘ I blurted, ‘I just aren’t ready yet” His eyes narrowed. “Son, the sin, are you still in practise of it”? “Of course not! God no”. I laughed. He drummed on his Bible a moment. Well, think on it eh?. Pray on it to Jehovah, see what answer you get”. Of course, I noticed he didn’t offer to pray WITH me, but then he never did.... A couple of weeks later I was called into meeting with him and my mother. She sat there with that simpery smile on her face, her eyes swimming with concern. He was in an abrupt mood. Had I thought upon the matter of baptism? Had I prayed for guidance? I had I lied. “I just feel im not ready”. “Why not”? “Well, I think it’s a matter between me and God, don’t you”? He blinked three times. “Its not just a matter of our own well being, it’s a question of how we affect others in the congregation”. That was the IMPORTANT thing. There came a time when a man had to stand up and make the big jump. She chipped in, “If the boys not ready”…. He sighed, rolling his eyes heavenward. ”What about our responsibilities to others Joyce”? “Well”… She shrugged. Then she had a flash of inspiration. “Jesus wasn’t baptized till he was 29” She offered. He became very testy. “We are NOT living in the year 29 Joyce! Times are short now, there isn’t the luxury of time to dawdle about”. Abruptly my father ended the conversation and walked out. Next day, she was out shopping. He collared me in the down stairs laundry. “Why wont you get baptized”? He demanded. I tried to move away from his foul breathe but he forced me into the corner. “Are you sinning”? “No! of course not!” “Why then”? He pushed me into the wall and I screwed my face away from him. “This is for youre own good. Do you see that”? He shouted “God requires it of us!” I couldnt breathe as he screwed my face into the wall “Will you baptize or not”? He laid out the scenario, as arranged by himself. Head of the house. “I will arrange it , do you hear me”? I heard. “Im telling you…you WILL get baptized, and you will understand that it has to be done” “Do you understand me”? I understood. “Good then”. He released me. “So then…youre getting baptized” “Apparently” I mumbled. He hit me upside the head with a fist. “Yes?” “Yes” I said. "Good decision”. He walked away........

Selected excerpts from my Autobiography: ......Looking back thru the dusty collection of JW books sitting on the shelves, the oldest year book I can see is the 1962 yearbook. So it must have been 1962 when they seriously joined the church. It has always caused me wonder to think of my parents as Jehovahs Witnesses. They weren’t the slightest bit religious. He was one of those terribly practical men, good with his hands, Mechanical,very absorbed in the physical, and hardly a reader of books other than pulp novels. I don’t think I ever saw her reading a book, ever. They were not studious, nor were they thinkers or creative. Why on earth did they join? I believe the answer is that there was a crisis in their lives. Long after they stopped attending meetings, and their marriage fell apart, stories started to come out of ancient infidelities on my fathers part. And there were announcements of previously unknown “half brothers” and accusations against former lovers who bore the children. As well, in 1961 the family business was handed over to my fathers control and very quickly foundered into serious debt. Daddy was certainly a ladies man, but he was no businessman. With the foundering of the business there came about endless evening “business meetings” and my father was frequently out in the evening, but then reports would filter back of him having been seen out on the town with some woman or other. Accusations, weepings, denials. So I believe there was a marital crisis, a financial crisis, and these were the factors in their conversion. The story of their conversion to the truth has been told and retold in family lore, and over dinner discussions with other dubs many times. With time and retelling there came to be more and more elements of the supernatural recalled and added to the tale. Here is how it is recounted. One day in 1962, a weedy and ineffectual bespectacled little man called Eric Bell was out engaging in the very familiar door to door work. Brother Bell came to the near end of what looked like a country lane. Looking along it as far as he could see, there was nothing down there, so he moved to continue on his way to a group of houses on the main road. Then something miraculous happened. A voice spoke to him! Whether it was a literal voice, or a voice inside his head, or merely a sudden insistent thought I cannot say, only Bell can. But the voice apparently said: “Go down that lane” As he walked down the lane his perspective shifted and, thru the trees a house became visible. Bell marvelled that he had not been able to see it all along. Approaching it he was confronted by a large stone wall and, more intimidating, a very well trained guard dog called Russa Savan. To hear Bell recount the event, at this point he prayed for guidance, and something happened, a second miracle. The dog suddenly stopped growling and sat down! Strengthened, Bell ventured in the gate. As he walked up the path a very angry looking muscular man suddenly rounded the corner and Bell always claimed that, at this point, he was so frightened by my fathers fierce countenance and the prospect of his potato shaped head being pounded into mash that he dropped his Bible. Another, a third, miracle was about to occur. Bell stooped to pick up his Bible and as he straightened up his mind went completely blank and the book fell open at a particular page as though 'by its own choice'. Dumbly he looked at the page and as my father arrived on the scene, muscles bulging, veins pulsing, Bell, with voice quavering simply commenced to read from the first scripture his eyes alighted upon. Isaiah Chapter 2 verse 4: “And they will have to beat their swords into plow shares, and their spears into pruning shears, Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war any more”. Now according to the legend this just happened to be the only scripture in the entire Bible that could have possibly prevented my father from breaking both Bells legs and dumping his broken body over the front wall. And God had that very scripture come out of Bells mouth. Amazing. But why was that scripture significant at that time? The only thing I can think of is that in 1962 there was very grave concern over the impending prospect of World War 3. Russia, that October, sought to install nuclear missiles into Cuba. Is it possible that Bell, because of the Cuban Missile Crisis, had that scripture in Isaiah as his lead scripture in his field service presentation in October 1962? I think it very possible. Regardless of whether His Bible fell open at Isaiah 2 verse 4 by accident or by forgotten design, a study was started that very day. It all moved very fast. Like an infection spreading thru a weakened organism. Within weeks my parents were attending Sunday meetings where we were all welcomed like long lost brothers. Within months they were attending all meetings and knocking on doors. One evening we children were consulted and asked how we felt about joining ‘Gods Organization’ but it was in terms that left no doubt as to the correct reply that was required. We thought it was a lovely idea. And then came the assembly at Twickenham in 1963. One at a time they entered the pool. Mrs Bell sat with us children, smiling benignly and assuring us how wonderful it all was. How special we were in that we would live forever. Cameras popped and fizzed, Hands clapped enthusiastically, faces smiled joyously and we entered the first moments of a new blissful existence that would never end, an eternity where deaths sting would never be felt. A life where pain and suffering would be no more. That’s the way it happened.... ....................... ....I quickly became aware that life was not going to be quite as pleasant and easy as it had been. Birthdays, I discovered, were no longer allowed. Christmas too was gone. These, to a seven year old, seemed heavy burdens to bear. Unfortunately, I now knew, we were all pawns in a mighty war between good and evil. It was very inconvenient for a child who just wanted his allotment of Christmas presents, but If Good was to triumph eternally then sacrifices had to be made. Easter eggs went. Rabbits. I learnt both these were symbols of breeding, worse they were symbols of sex, and so that meant they belonged to the evil side. If the forces of Good were intangible, the forces of evil were insidious. Evil sought to draw us to itself thru any deception, any slippery means, even resorting to using our own feelings to drag us to doom if it could. My father had a sister, she was a fair bit older than him. She was married but childless, and as young children we used to stay at their house on a regular basis. One Christmas, sometime in my childhood, my mother explained to them that Christmas was a pagan celebration and that, even though we children might be staying there over the holidays, there were to be no Christmas presents given to us. My aunty winked and said, “Still, a little somethin’ eh?”. My mother was insistent, so Aunty Madeleine suggested that maybe we could have a couple of presents, but they be given to us in January, or even February. That way they wouldn’t be Christmas presents. My mother said that might be okay and left it at that. Some time later my father rang up and there was a row, it would not be alright to give us Christmas presents in February, because, apparently, to do that would be compromising with the forces of evil which sought to lead us into impure worship. There were threats of him coming and removing us back to our home. My aunty relented, anything to keep us there. She looked at us with sad eyes, big as saucers as she hung up. “ No Christmas presents…ey bloody ‘ell…. You poor little buggers” It was inconceivable in her eyes. After the holidays were over we visited another time, in February, or March, I don’t recall, but our aunty drew us aside and gave us each a toy. Swearing us to secrecy and saying, “Its not a Christmas present mind, but best say nothin’ to your mum and dad”. The presents were “special secret presents” that could only be kept at Aunty Madeleines house. I don’t know who blabbed. Me, my brother. We never spent Christmas holidays with them again... .............. …... “In 1966 one other thing happened. An incident, apparently completely insignificant. But it was the start of something very big. The need for automony. Click, lock into memory. A seed was planted and there was no way to know that it would turn into a monster, a bitter and endless war, a battle to the death. The seed was tiny, like the mustard seed, but it would grow into a tangle of thorns that choked and strangled and needing to be fought against desperately, simply to be able to exist. Marybyrnong migrant hostel had a general store, huge and open, blue fizzy light insect killers above the door crackling and zapping constantly, especially in the summer. Fans beat the air overhead emphasizing the silence. The children always went immediately for the freezer chest with its paddle pops and sunny boy flavoured ice blocks at 5 cents each. You sucked all the orange flavour out of them and then threw the plain, tasteless remaining ice away. One evening I go into the store to buy a sunny boy…and I see it. Bang. My mind is instantly focused, eyes draw and roving all over the object, attraction….I feel the desire to possess. I hunger. I ask the man to let me examine it. The thing is 12 cents, more than I have, but I fondle its smooth cover, and marvel at the intensity of the colour of it and at the composition of the figures on the cover. There is a design to the way the figures are drawn, a balance I have never seen before. The thing is beautiful, far more beautiful, better drafted, and more colourful than any similar thing I had ever seen in England. It is an American superhero comic book. “Fantastic Four” number 61. Retrospectively, It comprised of nothing more than square jawed, perfectly proportioned heros fighting against leering, evil villains who wanted to take over the world. Perhaps its polarized view of the world, absolute good struggling against absolute evil, fitted snugly with the world view that the religion had already pumped into me. Just more of the same. Regardless, I was hooked. I stopped buying the daily sunny boy, and started saving my pennys until I had enough to purchase a Marvel comic. I could buy two a week in this manner. To my joy, I discovered that the “Fantastic Four” were just the tip of an endless iceberg of combat comics produced by the “Marvel house of Ideas”. There was “Journey into Mystery” featuring the Mighty Norse God, Thor. A favourite. Its arcane language, comprising of Biblical sounding “Thees” and “Thous” appealed to my religious training. I sampled all their comic range, but The Mighty Thor and “Captain America”, the star spangled, shield slinging defender of American democracy especially appealed to me. Soon I had a nice collection which I read endlessly at night, often by torchlight, before sleep. How could I know that very soon lying and deception, guerrilla warfare, Intense physical intimidation and bitter, bitter hatred would be unleashed into my life simply because I chose to start a collection of innocuous American comic books?.... ......... ....For a brief moment, back there in 1967 or 68, thereabouts, the interests of father and son coincided to a degree. He started watching the Marvel superheroes show on TV of a Saturday morning, along with us kids. A sort of weekend ritual over toast and cereal. But this didn’t last long. A coiling, writhing monster crawled inside my fathers head , his understanding suddenly changed, and I can pinpoint the moment it happened. The new realization, once it hit him was like a blow, and there was no turning back. It happened when he read “Mighty Thor” number 145. Title: “Abandoned on Earth”. The Norse All Father, Odin, and his sometimes prodigal son, Thor had a disagreement in that comic. Prophetically, the disagreement revolved around obedience. Thor failed to obey his fathers edicts and was stripped of his Godly raiment and abandoned on Earth, powerless, whipped and abused by his leering enemies. As he was being striped, he called out: “My father…why hast thou forsaken me?” A light went on in my fathers head. Why hadn’t he seen it before? He was reading a story that was a blasphemous imitation of the Jehovah / Christ relationship. Except this heavenly son was disputatious and disobedient. There was the false Father, Odin, crying out in rage: “Thou! Still thou, flesh of my own flesh!.. Still thou defy me!” This was base defiance of the heavenly Son towards the Father. Rankest blasphemy, the very rebellion of Satan himself. The realization that he was reading Satanic propaganda hit him like cold water. It was too awful to conceive, and worse still this vile message was concealed within a childs comic book. Satan was pumping his wicked rebellious thinking into the very minds of his own children thru an innocent looking childs magazine! Ah, but the Devil was wily allright! Besides. They were false Gods of Norse origin. Hadnt Jehovah himself said, First commandment: “Ye must not have any other Gods before my face” Had not God said: “Ye must not make any image or a form of anything that is in the heavens” Was not this a form? A form in the term of an ink rendering of a blasphemous false god? My father had not been vigilant enough, and indeed, the very lives of his children were imperilled..... ……………….... ....I know my father had these thoughts because he confronted me with them, sought to reason with me about them. One afternoon he called me unto him and asked me to bring all my comics so we could look at them. He said, “Ive been looking thru these comics very carefully, and frankly, there are things about them that concern me”. I didn’t know what he meant. He asked “ Well, for example, this Captain America bloke…whats he all about?” I thought he was a good guy fighting evil. “Yes…but, well who are these people hes fighting in this comic here?” I said, “I don’t know, but they look a bit Chinese to me”. He looked a bit surprised and said “Yes! I think that’s right, I think they are Chinese or Vietnamese, something like that, just like the Americans are fighting over in Vietnam right now” I said, “Id rather the Americans won than the Chinese”. He disagreed, rather, BOTH would be destroyed by Jehovah at Armaggedon. He paused, then laid it out: “I think this comic is pushing American Political propaganda, son” I was silent. He shifted tack. “Lets just have a look thru a comic generally….pick one…any one” I could see where this was heading and so reached for the most innocuous one I could think of. A Daredevil comic. He opened the cover. “Whats this?” “Army stuff”. “Its an advert for pretend army guns son…as Christians, are we interested in Army? Would we join an army?” “ Im not interested in Army” I said. He hoped I would not be and pointed to another Advert “This?” “Hypnotism” I said. “Son, hypnosis is a tool of the devil, used to take control of peoples minds” I watched him, transfixed as his mouth said: “I believe we have to get rid of these comics” WE? Get rid of MY comics!! I howled, “Dad, no!” “Son, Im sure it’s the right thing to do, these are full of bad things” I wept, they were only comics. He took a microscopic bit of pity. We sorted thru them. Thor was definitely out (Ye shall have no other Gods before me) Captain America too (Political propaganda would not be tolerated). For some reason he decided the Hulk was a bad influence too. I was allowed to keep Daredevil and Spiderman. More than half my collection, gone. We went into the back yard together, poured petrol over the offensive demonically inspired material, and he struck a match. WHOOOUUUFF!! None of it screamed as it burnt.......

Hmm. Well there are some interesting posts in this thread. Most noteable is the fact that two women have posted here that VPW put the hard word on them, and when it was apparent they were not interested, another woman entered the coach and gave them an excuse to leave. It makes one think that they entered by prearranged signal.

I think someone should create a giant ex cult board and we can all mix there, Momos, JWs and Penties...Sevvies and TWIers.... There should be a giant jello tub onsite which we can all wrestle and roll in. Nekkid of course. ;)-->

Mr Oreilly did say: .."Count me in on this hand. Refiner, I don't believe much of what you have said here at Greasespot. I am not saying that you are a bad person, just that you have not been honest here.".. Is that so? And what exactly have I said that you have difficulty believing I haver been "honest" about?? Think about it and answer at your leisure, Ive got plenty of time.

Well there seems to be a comprehension problem for some who begin to suspect that I am not what I appear. Clearly some ex Wayers are as paranoid and suspicious as some ex dubs. I have never been in "the Way". I wouldnt know jack about your church. However I have been involved in literally dozens of cults while I was researching a book I was writing. Mormons, Adventists, Pentecostals, Toronto Blessing, Benny Hinn, Ashtar command, Amway, Orion command, Dan Gaymans Church of Israel, Christian Identity ministries... Ive been involved in them all and have read most extensively in all of them. Believe me, I know exactly how they work and I can read between the lines of cult doctrine like a man with Xray eyes. Thats about it.

Well Exy. I could scarcely be talking about why I stayed in TWI. Cause i havent joined it yet! Lol. ;)-->

…”The last verses of Romans 14 clearly indicate that for people who can so believe, their actions are not sin.”… --> …”If I am not causing my brother to stumble and I am believing God to stay in fellowship, my adultery is not sin.”… …”We live in the Grace Administration and are not bound by hard-and-fast laws. I Corinthians 6:12 and 10:23 both say "All things are lawful for me."… …”According to I Corinthians, chapter 7, the marriage relationship is one of permission, not law. I am not breaking any of God’s laws by getting my sexual needs met outside as well as inside my marriage.”… --> …”Colossians 2:20 and 21 say that people are no longer to be subject to ordinances like "touch not; taste not; handle not." "Do not commit adultery" is just another "not" that was done away with when we got born again.”… --> So. It was like that was it? But was EVERYBODY allowed to partake at the table? Or was it a “ministry” that only the ruling ELITE were "spiritually advanced" enough to practise without being overcome by carnality. ?