Refiner

WORDWOLF says: QUOTE: "WOW: Word Over the World Ambassadors. A one-year program, similar to mission work, elsewhere in the US (usually). WOWs are expected to run pfal classes and attract converts." Missionaries huh? Well thank goodness I finally found out what a "WOWMobile" is. QUOTE: "Root/Trunk etc. twi uses a tree analogy." I like it. Root,trunk,branch,twig,leaf. Got it. Its got a homely non officious feel to it. Ummm....WordWolf says QUOTE: "AOS: Athletes of the Spirit. lcm's 2-hour dance production attempting to use sports analogies to represent all aspects of the Christian's life."... That one I GOT to see!

WORDWOLF says: QUOTE: "WOW: Word Over the World Ambassadors. A one-year program, similar to mission work, elsewhere in the US (usually). WOWs are expected to run pfal classes and attract converts." Missionaries huh? Well thank goodness I finally found out what a "WOWMobile" is. QUOTE: "Root/Trunk etc. twi uses a tree analogy." I like it. Root,trunk,branch,twig,leaf. Got it. Its got a homely non officious feel to it. Ummm....WordWolf says QUOTE: "AOS: Athletes of the Spirit. lcm's 2-hour dance production attempting to use sports analogies to represent all aspects of the Christian's life."... That one I GOT to see!

Greasespot cafe is top of the list under the heading of Way International ExCath. I looked at a lot of others first,I admit, but im real picky about Format. I hate those formats where you have to individually open every post in a thread to be able to read it.

http://www.alexa.com/browse/categories?catid=28407 Try this one ExCath

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/22/72442/1.ashx ExCath. I was reading the first post in the link provided, it lists a whole heap of ExCult member chat sites. And here I am.

Houseisa: JWs dont celebrate Christmas, nor Birthdays, nor anything. Its a terribly dull religion and frankly I wouldnt know when they think Jesus was born, though its certainly not December 25. The only ritual celebration permitted by the church is that of the memorial of the last supper, at which, once a year in April, a plate of biscuit and a glass of wine is passed about, and, if exceedingly privilaged, you might get to witness 1 withered, 95 year old fossil gum at a biscuit and dribble wine down his bib. Permission to enter the ranks of the "144,000" closed in 1935. So theyre all getting on a bit now

Hey JT. I hate to refer to the JayDubs again, but i must tell you , after the charismatic and "loving" shepherd, the founder, Russell died, he was succeeded by a dogmatic and abrasive man called Rutherford who hijacked the movement. Rutherford, over the course of 12 years drove 80 percent of the membership away from the church, then rebuilt it. Ive read all the Watchtowers from the Rutherford era and know the reasonings used....so yes....Its a pattern Im familiar with.

Quote: " Although Craig Martindale more often compared himself to Timothy. In his "humble mode", the founder, Weirwille, was Paul and he was Timothy." Well being a modern day "Timothy" isnt as good as being God Himself, Nor being Jesus. Its not even as good as being a modern day "Paul". But being the equivalent of "Timothy" is still closer to being God than any of us mere mortals can claim. So we genuflect accordingly. ;)-->

In lucky to have him ExCath. We had his 13th birthday party today. He had 4 mates and they went rollerblading, then to the pics to see "The Day After", then I took them to a Pizza place for tea. He is a fine looking figure of a young man when he has his school uniform on. He sure has a lot to say about things. ;)--> I think weve got a good relationship.

Yes JT. Im doing some reading up on the movement now. From what I see the mewmbership has crashed to just a few thousand. This Martindale guy appears to be a dogmatic and abusive ******* who has driven everyone but the most diehard and desperate believers away. I imagine they are telling themselves that when all the "fair weather" followers have been "tested, exposed and been "weeded out" they can rebuild from a small but very solid foundation.

For those interested in matters pertaining to Pyramids... Pertaining to former beliefs of the Jehovahs Witnesses regarding the pyramid of Cheops. Russell, in Volume 3 of Scripture Studies, chapter 10 says: Quote: “The Great Pyramid, however, proves to be a storehouse of important truth--scientific, historic and prophetic--and its testimony is found to be in perfect accord with the Bible, .. expressing the prominent features of its truths in beautiful and fitting symbols. It is by no means an addition to the written revelation: that revelation is complete and perfect, and needs no addition. But it is a strong corroborative witness to God's plan; and few students can carefully examine it,… without feeling impressed that its construction was planned and directed by the same divine wisdom, and that it is the pillar of witness referred to by the prophet”... So certainly the great pyramid was considered a storehouse of divine truth. Under the heading “Its Scientific lessons”, Russell says: Quote: “It is now ascertained that the sun also is in motion, carrying with it its splendid retinue of comets, planets, its satellites and theirs, around some other and vastly mightier center. Astronomers are not yet fully agreed as to what or where that center is. Some, however, believe that they have found the direction of it to be the Pleiades, and particularly Alcyone, the central one of the renowned Pleiadic stars… Alcyone, then, as far as science has been able to perceive, would seem to be 'the midnight throne' in which the whole system of gravitation has its central seat, and from which the Almighty governs his universe.”.... Pertaining to passage measurements, Russell writes: Quote: “Call to mind that the Scriptures showed us that the full end of Gentile power in the world, and of the time of trouble which brings its overthrow, will follow the end of A.D. 1914, and that some time near that date the last members of the Church of Christ will have been "changed,". Remember, too, that the Scriptures proved to us in various ways--by the Jubilee Cycles, the 1335 days of Daniel, the Parallel Dispensations, etc.--that the "harvest" or end of this age was due to begin in October, 1874, and that .. seven years later--in October, 1881--the "high calling" ceased, … Then look at the manner in which the stone "Witness" testifies to those same dates and illustrates the very same lessons. Thus: The floor-line of the "Grand Gallery," from the north to the south wall, has been twice very carefully measured in recent years, and three distinct sets of measures have been obtained…... Prof. Smyth found the first of these measures (a) to be 1874 Pyramid inches, the second (b), 1881 Pyramid inches, and the third ©, 1910 Pyramid inches; while Mr. Flinders Petrie reports these measures eight-tenths of [C363] an inch longer. A reasonable estimate, therefore, and undoubtedly very nearly a correct one, would be to call these figures (a) 1875, (b) 1882 and © 1911 Pyramid inches.”... So the great pyramids ‘passage measurements’ almost exactly corresponded to the Conclusions that Russell reached regarding Chronology, and corroborated his dates.

GSG said: .."that ex cult victims "have no generations to continue their bloodline on."... Perhaps Im confusing my own experience with that of "Way" former members. As an ex JayDub I encounter many stories of people who spent all their time in the ministry to the degree of foresaking even having children,(it being actively discouraged by the "borg") and having no generation to follow them. Ive only got 1 child myself.

Hmm. I dont want to highjack the thread WW, so perhaps just one question?... Is the church high turnover, I mean, do people join and leave rapidly,say... within a handfull of years? Or are they in for decades?

Imbus posted: Oakspear posted: Hmm. I never heard of a church where displays of anger are considered acceptable behaviour. Uncle Hairy posted: That was funny. :D-->

Raf. That about the 607 BC date is a key belief now. They believe that The "Times of the Gentiles" commenced in 607 BC and 7 "times", each 360 years long, totaling 2520 years then passed until 1914. This "proof" superceeded previously held chronology "proofs" that were published under Russell, all of which were abandoned in approx 1927 AD. The "times of the gentiles" arguement was one originally used by William Miller to prove his 1844 AD date.

Goey. Indeed there is a section in Volume 3 of Russells SS, that uses measurements of chambers and corridors from the pyramid of Cheops to demonstrate that the 1874/1878/1914 dates are correct and were predicted by the pyramid builders. But I had better refrain from commenting in any degree on such until I have reexamined the literature and made certain my facts are right. ;)-->

Oakspear. You are correct, I have posted something that is erroneous. Many apologies, I didnt check sources before posting. Firstly, the time parallel is not 1830 years as I claimed, but it is 1845 years, from Jacobs death, to the Jews rejection of Christ. Apologies, I was posting from memory. Looking thru Russells Volume 2, I now see that the year 29 CE corresponds to Jesus baptism and was paralleled to the year 1874 CE When Jesus purportedly returned invisibly. The year 33CE paralleled to the year 1878 when, allegedly, the ressurection of the dead of the 144,000 to heavenly life took place.As also Christ himself was resurrected that year. The year 36CE is paralleled to the year 1881. Was 36CE the year of the first Gentile conversion? I think I am in error claiming 36CE was the outpouring of spirit at pentecost. The year 1914CE certainly corresponds to 70CE, the destruction of Jerusalem. The church certainly expected to be raptured on all those dates. It appears from what I can see in Volume 2 that the 1925CE expectation was based on a completely different reasoning than the parallels. It was based on the "Jubilee cycles" arguement that there had been 70 x 50 year jubilee cycles which would end in 1925CE. The Witness 1975CE expectation was based upon the claim that 6000 years would have expired since Adams creation, and, the 1000 year "millenium" needing to fit into a 7000 year creative day, Armaggedon must certainly occur before that year.

GSG Said: Quote: "In Wayspeak, giving above the tithe is called "abundant sharing"; and giving everything beyond your need is called "plurality giving." And the more you give, the more you shall recieve. Tenfold even. That must be why so many ex cult victims are living in caravans and have no generations to continue their bloodline on. Sigh.

Here you go Raf: Link Provided: http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/ SS Volume 2. "The Times is at hand". Chapter "Parallel Dispensations" ............ "BOTH THE HOUSES OF ISRAEL" --Time Parallels-- B.C. 1813 JEWISH FAVOR, WAITING FOR THE KINGDOM 1845 + 3 1/2 years PERIOD OF THE NATIONAL EXISTENCE OF THE CHILDREN OF JACOB, SURNAMED ISRAEL, DATING FROM THE DEATH OF THE PATRIARCH JACOB 70th week A.D. 29 The King came in A.D. 33 A.D. 36 JEWISH HARVEST 3 1/2 + 3 1/2 + 33 = 40 YEARS Israel Falls --------- Days of Vengeance --------- Luke 21:22 --------- A Time of Trouble and Final Overthrow A.D. 70 -------------------------------------------- A.D. 33 CHRISTIAN FAVOR, WAITING FOR THE KINGDOM During Jewish "Double" -- 1845 + 3 1/2 years PERIOD OF CHRISTIAN FAVOR AND HIGH CALLING TO BELIEVERS, DATING FROM MESSIAH'S DEATH TO THE REJECTION AND FALL OF BABYLON A.D. 1874 The King came in A.D. 1878 A.D. 1881 CHRISTIAN HARVEST 3 1/2 + 3 1/2 + 33 = 40 YEARS Babylon Falls --------- Days of Vengeance --------- Dan. 12:1 --------- "A Time of Trouble such as was not since there was a Nation" A.D. 1915 -->

cKerr. The only doctrine Im pushing is freedom from cult mind control and deceptive practise. Im not a Christian or a follower of any other form of formalized belief system.

George, all history pertyaining to the churches roots in Millerism, and the predictive history of Russell has been expunged. Witnesses do not have access to published materials of the Watchtower Society prior to about 1930. It is a classic case of history fabrication and a book burning exercize to conceal the fact that they have uttered error and falsehood as "divine Truth".

George Arr. Entirely correct. The Witnesses are a spin off from Millerism. Raf is holding a discussion of this matter in the Doctrinal forum. I'll be happy to discuss it there, or here, as people see fit. But go easy on me,I dont have the quotes to back my position right at my fingertips and might not be posting completely accurate details. The general thrust is correct though.

Sorry Raf. That should be birth of Isaac. Not Jacob. Of course, the birth of Isaac commenced the time span of the patriachal dispensation, running an exact number of years. The Birth of Jesus commenced the Christian dispensation which was to run an exactly equal number of years. Go easy on any errors bro. Im posting purely from memory here.

Well Raf. Its a complicated matter of course. However, the Jehovahs Witnesses were founded by Charles Taze Russell, as you would well know. Russell wrote a series of books, called the "Scripture Studies" (as well as publishing the Watchtower magazine). In Scripture Studies volume 2 (Henceforth referred to as "SS")and the Watchtower magazine in the late 18th century, Russell outlined what were called the "Parallels". These basically amounted to equal periods of time (from memory, 1830 year periods) From the birth of Jacob until Christs sacrifice 1830 years. And from The time of Christ a "parallel" period of (from memory) 1830 years until 1914. Follow? Now of course, in the Jewish end times circa first century, there were numerous significant events: The birth of Christ in year 0 His baptism 30 years later.(29CE) His death 3.5 years later, (year 33) Pentecost 3.5 years later (Year 36) And the destruction of Jerusalem (Year 70CE) This generates time scales of 3.5 ,7, 30,40, and 70 years. Or Years 0. 29. 33. 36. and 70 Witness date setting falls within those alloted time periods. If you start in the year 1844 (the year of the Adventist expectation) as year "0" count forward 30 years brings you to 1874. Their first expectation. Plus 3.5 (Year 33CE)years brings you to 1878CE. Their second expectation. Plus 3.5 years (Year 36CE) brings you to 1881CE. Third expectation. Then the equivalent of 70CE is 1914. The date they are still fixed upon now. Perhaps that is enough in this post. I await your response.

Do naughty posters who fight with each other get suspended on this forum? Posting limits reduced? Just curious here.