Refiner

Well Ras. I personally grew up in a church that promised abundantly blissfull family life, personal joy, and eternal physical existance if you applied the methods espoused. Interestingly enough it succeeded only in tearing the family apart and producing guilt and fear in the minds of all involved. Sounds familiar I know. The church I was in never promised any supernatural powers, though I have attendfed lots of pentecostal type churches and seen people laughing in the spirit fit to bust a gut, and rolling on the floors "drunk in the spirit", and Ive seen them prophecying in tongues. In fact Ive done all the above listed myself while involved in the respective milieus. They were all orchestrated and manufactured phenomena. Ive never seen anyone levitate. When I see it I'll believe it.

Quote: "Where is the logic in rejecting the idea of God or Christianity altogether because of a bad experience in a cult that misrepresented them?" Well Goey, I'll answer that, Ive been involved in dozens of them, literally. Interestingly they are all able to have Liftons Criteria of "thought reform" applied to them. Exceptions might well be the long established churches such as , eg, Lutherans. I dont know how manipulative such churches are, but every younger movement Ive been involved with, including assorted pentecostal movements, the 3 major sects and all the small, growing new religions, well they are wplves in sheeps clothing, one and all from where I sit. There seems to be the same horrible results whenever you combine an organizational structure with a totalist belief system. I cant help but feel that, if there is any spiritual side to things at all, that such structures are employed by darkness masquerading as light. If there is any God at the top of their 'food chain' it is Satan, not the true God.

Im sure Mikes a lovely fella, but hes an obsessive nut from where I sit.Sorry Mike. Of course, I havent even read PFAL , but I imagine that it promises amazing results for those who apply the methods espoused but never actually even remotely produces the goods expected.

Quote: "there is a tradition practiced by the more devout Mormon married women of wearing an undergarment, sort of like white longjohns," Thats the temple garment I think. My understanding is that everyone whose been inducted into the temple has to wear them in perpetuum. Ive seen them on the man who baptized me. Theyre white and like knee length long Johns. far as i recall they have symbols on them . and they have to be worn 24/7 even when having sex...perhaps especially while having sex. One assumes they are a specially designed garment and that the symbols thereon protect the wearer from being overcome by evil influence. -->

I automatically assumed that the vast majority of posters here would be none believers and too angry at the notion of God to continue having faith, having had a bad experience with Christianity. I must admit Im surprised. Ahhh, well, live and learn.

Start/All Programs/ Bill gates is right there in updates. In "All Programs" / accessories/ System tools...defrag is there. Defrag is fun to watch exy. "Disk cleanup" is there in All programs/Accessories/"system tools" too. Just delete everything that it offers that looks unnecessary. I go into "Control panel" and "add/remove programs" and also get rid of all the crap that Im not using anymore. Stuff like Kazaa.

Well I could tell you stories of my own experiences going "door to door" as a JW. Once I knocked on the door and the people were sat right there watching TV and totally ignored us. They just stared at us thru the longe windows and didnt get up. That was interesting. Another time a man came to the door nude. This is actually something that only ever happened once.Youd think it would occur frequently, but not so. We once got invited in by an elderly man who then locked the doors and proceeded to attack the pioneer that I was with. I jumped out thru a bedroom window. The very best of the best though was when we knocked on the door and a man came and answered it with Beethoven music blarring in the background he proceeded to scream at us that it was Sunday morning and he was "worshipping", he told us to "Go away! and allow me to worship my God"

Thanks WW. Im an agnostic myself. It seems the only logical position to take. Do the Christians here get all steamed up if you express lack of belief publicly on the forum?

I wouldve said that the biggest fallacy people hold about God is that he exists, is conscious, and sent himself to earth as Jesus Christ. If God wants to deal with me I expect he can set fire to a bush and address me direct and in person. When he does that, I'll concern myself with his requirements and might even believe he existeth

Im no computer guru exy, but its most necessary to "defrag" every once in a while.As well, you have to stay on top of downloads from Bill Gates. I also delete programs and stuff out of my comp that I no longer use.Dont let redundant stuff pile up in there. Keep your comp pure, and keep it updated. Thats about as much advice as I can offer on the matter of these infernal machines. They are a portal straight into the Mind of Satan as far as Im concerned.

Im curious. What proportion of the people on this site are Christians?

Many religious Totalisms have taken an absolute position when making declarations about their interpretations of prophetic scripture passages. They have declared their interpretations to be revelations dispensed directly from the mind of God, and they have declared their interpretations the final fulfilment of Biblical prophecies. It is easy to demonstrate this pattern from the 3 major sects: Seventh Day Adventism, Mormonism and the Jehovahs Witnesses. All these have foolishly believed they have received a final understanding of prophetic matters, and then made Absolute statements, in Gods Authority, of interpretation of coming events. Later these interpretations are proven incorrect by the relentless march of history. Just one good example of this ongoing pattern of behaviour, and the resultant necessity of constant reinterpretation of scripture, is regarding Adventisms understanding of who constitutes the Kings that come from the Sunrising. A major Adventist apologist, Louis Weir, wrote a book on the subject demonstrating, with reproduced passages from old publications, the churches ever "Eastward moving" interpretation of this scripture passage over the course of a century. In the late 1800s Turkey was understood (and declared) to be the “sunrise” king. Then, during the 1920s Japan, and after the defeat of Japan in WW2, Persia, and later again, China have all been interpreted as “The Kings”. The reasons for this constant shifting of interpretation are clear. The rise and fall of empires, the constant changing of the world political scene. Among many other quotes, Louis Weir reproduces a passage from a 1940s Adventist flyer that declared Japan to be the 'sunrise king': Quote:... “Japan is unmistakeably identified with the prophecy of Revelation 16, led by the spirits of devils, and working miracles…In recent months, events in the Far East have moved rapidly in a direction that would indicate that, at last, the Kings of the East are moving in the direction of the rendezvous of prophecy, the river Euphrates… before our gaze the final act of the drama is rapidly unfolding”....END QUOTE It doesn’t take an Einstein to see that, after Japan is defeated in war, a reinterpretation of scripture becomes necessary. And so it goes on and on. Amazingly, and somewhat unfortunately, religious totalitarians are very stupid people in that they take a long time to learn from their mistakes. The Adventists misapprehended the “sunrise kings” prophecy at least 4 times before they started to wise up that it made them look foolish when they kept declaring current events to be absolute ‘prophetic fulfilment’ and then were forced to change position as the World political scene shifted. Those who speak for God don’t like having to shift position. When the penny finally drops with Totalitarians the tendancy is to “Spiritualize” the interpretation of prophecy. This is usually done in a couple of ways… Either the scripture passage is declared as finally fullfilled in an invisible event. Or the passage is declared as in process of fulfilment, but in a manner that never ends. About the fulfilment of prophecy in an “invisible” manner: Jehovahs Witness examples of “Invisible fulfilments” (of literal expectations) include the current understandings regarding both 1914AD and 1918AD. Both these (The “Return” of Christ –1914AD and “The Ressurection”- 1918AD ) are invisible fulfilments of formerly held literal expectations. It seems to be a rule in totalistic movements that wherever you find an invisibly fulfilled event…some research will unearth a formerly held literal expectation. The latest JW interpretation of the 1914AD “generation” that last generation (commencing in 1914) that would ‘see the End of all things’ is a classic example of a prophetic fulfilment that is ‘endless’ or not able to be disconfirmed. Rather than a ‘literal’ generation of humankind living ‘70 years’ it has become an ongoing, perpetual ‘Generation of Godlessness’. It being always able to be claimed that men are ‘Godless’, the time span of the generation becomes unconfirmable, and thus without end. This interpretation will remain the WTs final interpretation regarding the “generation”. Set in stone and immovable. The same applies to the Jehovahs Witness understanding of the “Kings of the North and South”, so extensively laid out in recent years in the Witness book “Daniels Prophecy”. Rather than the formerly held position that RUSSIA comprised the “King of the North”, now, with the publication of the “Daniels Prophecy” book, every opposing set of nations in the history of history, including Germany vs Britain, and the US vs Russia is declared an ongoing, “rolling” fulfilment of the Kings of the North and South prophecy. The Kings are declared to have “constantly changing identities” throughout human history. Looking to Mormonism: A prime example of the necessity to “spiritualize’ an expectation, or reinterpret prophetic understanding, occurred pertaining to the predictions for the Mormon Zion The key Mormon book of doctrine, the “Doctrine and Covenants” in chapter 84, states pertaining to Zion: QUOTE...."Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord,in the Western Boundaries of the state of Missouri......For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it"...END QUOTE This prophecy was uttered by Joseph Smith in 1832. However, there came over time to be a BIG problem. The residents of Independence and, in fact, of the state of Missouri, rose up in military force against the Mormon onslaught and bitter battle ensued. Battle which the Mormons ended up losing to the point of being run out of Missouri at gunpoint. Indeed, eventually they were run out of the entire mid west. The Jackson County “Zion” was never built. Joseph Smith uttered numerous prophecies blaming the Jackson county failure on the “unspiritual natures” and “sins” of the followers. But what is the Church position on Zion now, 160 years after the event? I quote from a book called "Teachings of Presidents of the church-Brigham Young" a fairly current publication. There is an entire chapter dedicated to the subject of ‘building zion', among many other things it says: QUOTE ..." We profess to BE Zion, if we are the pure in heart, .....where is zion?, Where the organization of the church of God is.......When we conclude to make a Zion we make it, and this work commences in the hearts of each person.....if we cease to hold fellowship with that which is corrupt and establish the Zion of God in our hearts, in our homes, in our cities, and thruout our land, we shall overcome the whole earth"....(assorted DBY quotes).....END QUOTE So the literal “Zion” has become a mystical thing, a “state of heart” resident within the membership, to be developed inside each one until that wonderous day comes when the literal Zion will, finally, be built in Jackson County, Missouri. There can be no doubt that, with a certain maturity and history of doctrinal shifting, a religious Totalism becomes more cautious and develops a tendancy toward shifting to interpretations that are neither confirmable nor uncomfirmable. A caution (finally) learnt from innumerable letdowns, embarrassments, enforced doctrinal shifts and ‘disappointments’.

Regarding the "Yes to Human Cloning" book. I gathered the impression that perfection and bliss was going to be achieved by means of Scientific advance. Manifestation machines and "NanoTechnology" will be developed that will create our every desire so that life is endless leisure and pursuit of personal intetrests. Regarding eternal life, this is apparently going to be achieved thru cloning, which will reproduce an endless supply of new, young healthy bodies for us to inhabit. Previous memories will be transferred into the new body thus perpetuating an eternal existance.

Hmmm. Well considering as you are interested WW, some time ago I did a couple of brief essay type posts on the Raelian books Id read. Heres the one I did about the "Sensual Meditation" book. presenting some highlights from Raels book "SENSUAL MEDITATION" ..... "The book presents 6 lessons in "sensual mediation" , each escalating above the previous lesson in levels of awareness and overcoming irrationally programmed self loathing and societally induced ‘sexual repression’. Rael recommends creating a special chamber for your sensual meditations first lesson. Candlelight is suggested. The chamber should have images that you find stimulating, perhaps paintings that you are fond of, and perfumes that pleasantly stimulate your sense of smell.These are of your own choice. Classical music of your choice to stimulate your hearing and fire the brain patterns up is a necessity. To stimulate the sense of taste Rael suggests aniseed, something spicy that you are partial to. So as to harmonize with the infinite Rael specifically recommends nude meditation, if not nude then, better still, a robe of silky flimsy material to titilate your body is a good idea. It is most necessary to be very aware of your body, as we will discover. Many of the initial techniques, involving oxygenation and the clearing of all external awareness, "centering", are nothing new to anyone who has engaged in meditation before. It is in the third lesson that things start to get. 'interesting'. In the third lesson Rael directs extreme awareness into the fingertips and exploration of our own body. Page 110 recommends something most of us likely haven't tried: . "discovering the taste of our own skin". Rael explains: . "by sucking our finger tips and then the skin of our own arm, we discover what we taste like. Our own unique flavour".. This extends into sampling the taste of our own underarm odour, a pleasant thought, but Rael has only BEGUN to lead us upon our discovery of our own bodies as he explores the sense of smell: Page 110: .."Then, still with our eyes closed, we explore our own body smells". He suggests a shower the night before to remove grime, and then: "allow the body, overnight, to produce the secretions responsible for our body smells".. Enough to put some off the idea of venturing further I would think. But the journey is not over yet . Rael would have us overcome all implanted, irrational tabboos Taught to us by mother and the church: . "Then we once again caress our body with our hands, discovering every part of our physique as if for the first time". Rael recommends a mirror be employed, this is needed to: . " look at certain less accessible parts of our body as we caress them". These include: ." particularly our sexual organs".. And, as the culmination of exercise 3: . "Our anus itself. which we can see using our mirror". As we inspect and caress it! Rael gushes effusively, describing it as: . " this fabulous toy..which expects only one thing. That we enjoy it".

WW. Ive never been involved in the Raelians, though I have read a number of their publications. Ive read "The Message given to me by Extra Terrestrials" , "Lets Welcome our Fathers from Space", and Ive Read "Sensual meditation". So the material Ive read is public material. What secret practises they have I couldnt say, though the "sensual meditation" book is a bit kinky in places and recommends group groping. Id be willing to bet theres some humpy hump goes on in the cult.

Yeah George, it makes you wonder what degree of altruism there really is in anything that anybody does. I think people do most things from mixed motives, they have selfish motive in almost everything they do, but there may be some altruism mixed in there with the selfishness. Of course, Im not privvy to the minds of others, and can only reference my own motives for things that I do. The thing with mister Rael is, what a sleaze he is.

I thought readers here might find it interesting to read the account of a guided tour of 'planet heaven' by Rael, the leader of the RAELIANS. They are much discussed in the media over recent months pertaining to cloning. The founder "Rael" wrote a book called "The Extra terrestrials took me to their planet". This appears to be planet "Heaven", and while there Rael is given a guided tour, by, among others...Yahweh! On page 200, Yahweh shows, and explains to Rael his collection of "slave robots": QUOTE: ..."the servants whom you saw carrying the dishes...as well as the dancers, are only biological robots...they are limited and are absolutely submissive to us. they are also incapable of acting without any order...they...have no pleasure, except the one their specialization requires...they come out of the apparatus ready for function. they only know one thing, to obey men and Elohim..."END QUOTE pretty soon Raels favourite subject is raised. Specifically, the subject of humpy hump... Yahweh continues: QUOTE:..."men who desire to have one or more companions...can have one or more absolutely submissive female biological robots to whom the machine gives the exact physical appearance desired...the machine which produces these robots gives the entity the exact physical appearance and specialization desired...we can submit a picture of someone on earth we admired...and the machine will produce the exact replica"...END QUOTE Sounds like heaven to me! On page 210,after being taken about by Yahweh, and introduced to Jesus and Buddha, Rael is taken to view the machine that manufactures Sex robots: QUOTE:...""Would you like some female companions"? asked the robot. "Come, you will make your choice"....I found myself transported...a luminous cube appeared in front of me...When I had settled down a magnificent young brunette, with marvellous proportions,appeared three dimensionally within the cube....My robot asked if she pleased me, or if I would like to have her shape altered or her face modified. I told him that I found her perfect."..END QUOTE To cut a long story short, Rael is then shown a blonde, a redhead, a "magnificent black woman' and two orientals. He couldnt choose which he wanted! Fortunately his robot companion understood his connundrum, and so: QUOTE:..."A few minutes later I was back in my residence with my six companions. There I had the most unforgettable bath I have ever had..." END QUOTE. I bet!

And then, exy, after your conversion the REAL stress and crisis started. But seriously, I dont plan on posting any more of my saga.As to the ending, well I havent even written it in final draft.

Yes its an interesting thing about labelling or marking persons. Now I can tell you that as a jehovahs witness there was a big focus upon confessing your sins, and that if one confessed, frequently that one was "reproved" in public from the stage, usually for the official sin of "conduct unbecoming a Christian". Interestingly, in the literature, the theory behind confession is to seek assistance and support from the "older men" of the congregation. Inevitably the opposite occurs, one recieves no "spiritual assistance" from church leaders, and one is "shunned" by church members one thought were friends because they dont want your taint to rub off on them. One winds up shunned, alone and unsupported.

Theres usually a computer onsite and someone with a camera. You link in live and post whats going down so everyone can join in worldwide!!

Regarding "Get Togethers", over on the JehovahW forums they have regular meetups, called "apostafests". They are usually well attended. Why weve had a few in Melbourne with as many as 20 people turning up, and drinking themselves stupid. Its a good way to meet new friends.

House is: Quote - "Soon afterwards the 'believer doctor' that was caring for him revealed some lack in his life and thus it was explained off as the doctors problem rather than that of LCM's." Hmm, well I suppose the image of the infallible leader has to be maintained. Obviously in this case LCM was a "suffering prophet" carrying the burdens of those around him who were weaker in faith. Such love hath no man... Quote: "The thing about that ministry is just when you think you have an understanding of their doctrine they up and change it on you. Something about keeping the disciples off balance, making for an easier target to control." Certainly appears to be the case. Of course, I think Churches dont like to have to alter "truth" (else how was it "truth" in the first place) still, events in the real world (such as the collapse of Communism) cause them to have to change statements they made that Gorbachev was the "Beast" 666. Very inconvenient that.

Houseis said: Quote: "For someone to just plain be sick and then get healed usually requires some dissection into the person's life to see where they let their guard down."... The logical extension of this might be that "worldly" medicine is not needed to heal the sick, rather prayer is needed. Does TWI discourage formal medical treatment of ailments?

TheEvan: The writings of Ellen White are certainly not used by Jehovahs Witlesses. She is purely the Adventist prophetess. They call her writings'The Spirit of Prophecy". Of course, the book "Great Controversy" (Which I quoted from)was written in 1888 (?) which is 44 years AFTER the period that she is discussing. Time alters memory. To know what was truly felt, stated and 'expected' back in 1844 a reader would have to research material original in 1844 or prior. Interestingly Adventists themselves publish much material reproducing 1840-1844 original publications. So an investigator can source material easily. This is probably the reason why so many cult experts who are writing books upon the subject of predictive failures refer to Adventist examples. The Witnesses history pertaining to concealment of "embarrassing information" is much more extensive. But source material is not easy to obtain.

George said: Quote:… “we were advised to assemble a survival kit (I ferget the cutesy TWI name for it now), with millet for food (YUMMY!), warm clothes, maps, matches, a gun, plenty of ammo, and various and sundry other goodies. We were supposed to keep this kit available at all times, so, given the word from "leadership" we could just grab our backpack and head for the hills Anyway, the evil takeover by the Illuminati never took place, but of course there was a very good reason for that. The "BELIEVERS" in TWI had prayed so hard that the devil just couldn't bring it to pass. “…End Quote. Interesting George, Looks like the Way leadership have a tendancy to take the other tack then, instead of the Church being “impure” and preventing Christ returning as scheduled (Lest He have to destroy them) The Way Leadership play the inverse, that the Church is so ”holy” that it stopped the scheduled event with the power of its prayers. George also says: Quote: “I've heard of several other imminent disasters that were averted in the last second by - you guessed it - the faithful, fervent prayer of the WayWorld believers. I know the Y2K was also billed as a coming meltdown of life as we know it, and blah, blah, blah, faithful prayer, standing in the gap,..”End Quote. I was hanging out with adherents of the “Christian Identity Ministries” in 1999. Come Millennium eve, George, being a regular attendee at their home meetings, I had gone along with the plans and stockpiled food and water for when the computers crashed and brought the “system” to its knees. Didn’t happen though. Took me 12 months to get rid of all that canned food. -->