Too Gray Now

Part 2: Perceptions of Evil and Beauty are all about the perception, never the reality. The reality is the “stuff” that is behind what is perceived… like an onion, several spiritual layers deep. Many Americans say the hijackers were deceived by the lies imbedded in their religion - that they would go straight to heaven and be with lots of wonderful virgins. On the whole, this version of their expected end is considered to be faulty by all Christians here. Yeah, yeah, yeah... But Why do most people think like that? HMMM? Because our own works (making people behave like Christians) are "acceptable" to God and their works (killing people) are not acceptable. Do your own Cain and Able tie-in here. So it all comes down to works, then doesn’t it. By our works we are judged. So we judge others by theri works... This is a fundamental “truth” – or is it???

Part 1: Evil is not the enemy. I have met the enemy, and we are the ones keeping it alive. Evil, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. Now before anyone freaks out – kindly read on… then you can freak out :)--> We don’t have to look very far to recognize this is a reality on the basis of human behavior. For example: The twisted motives which inspired certain people to fly stolen airplanes full of terrified passengers into buildings full of innocent people and incinerate as many as they could – are quickly labeled “evil” in the eyes of the citizens in this country. Yet these very same acts of terror inspire others in the world to look at those responsible as if they were wonderful, brave, heroes and beautiful martyrs. Why? ‘Tis the nature of the beast. And I think, we are feeding it and keeping it alive. If we kill the THING that made these guys do this.. we will be killing a whole lot of Christians, too... and Jews... and... and... We may want to reconsider just what in the blue blazes happened and "attack the war on terror" with a whole new "weapon" - light.

Well... ya done tripped over one of 'ma hot buttons, there SirGuess. So Here Goes: Present Evil/ Current Darkness/ Acceptable Behaviour/ They are all linked... to Christ and who he is to us NOW. Before I start... Just think of me like the Energizer Bunny.. just BEATIN' that Christ-Drum. There are about 40 pages of "stuff" I could post on these topics... but can't. So here are a few things...

I love that phrase! Sort of like saying... "Keep GOING! Don't stop to stare at the "words" - go to the heart because that is where the reality is." Reminds me of when Jesus told Peter to "Come." (Not a whole heck of a lot of explanation or instruction for someone who is about to step out of a boat onto a stormy sea!) In former Way days, we explained things to death. And I mean that rather literally. Jesus said "come". If Peter would have been an Advanced Class Grad, he would have said - "WOAH! Wait a Min., STOP RIGHT THERE! Check your 16 keys to walking by the spirit. Analyze this thing. Don't be so quick to act… it COULD be a devil spirit”. So we were taught how to kill the “spiritual”. What Jesus spoke to Peter was…. Momentary Manna. So much Momentary Manna gets Shot in the Heart by the Head of man. When Peter started to analyze the whole thing – that is what gave rise to his sinking. Add a little doubt to the moment and ... blub, blub, blub. (Of course his buddies never got out of the boat at all… supposing they had seen “a spirit.” A brief glimpse was the only thing that they ALL received. Peter at least went with that… and then the next thing he heard – so he went... etc.) I dare say that for many of us, a simple bit of instruction from the Lord like, “Come” would require some other validation. Why do I say that? Because 95% of the Christian world is still wrapped up in “Was that the Lord, or just my own head?” “Gee, I had better pray about this for a few weeks and talk this over with my pastor and friends so that I don’t get deceived.” Tragically, the deception has already occurred in many of those cases. Frozen by the “doubt of origin”, people fail to act... and if and when they finally do act – they find the bread has often spoiled. Then the NEXT time they hear the tongue of the spirit - they don’t even bother to respond. Their ability to respond (response/ability) has been diminished by trying to play it "safe". How do we break this spiral? Not sure, to be honest. But I think we should start following those things He puts in our hearts – doubting nothing… and not pretending to know more than what we “have” at that moment, either. If we start to sink… He will pick us up. But if we never get out of the boat – we and the world around us loose a great moment.

WB: I HEAR ya! That last question you just posed - ...looked kinda like a shiny penny to me ;)-->Just so ya know - I actually practice my own advice So everything I say should be treated as EXPERIMENTAL. I used to go to a church where - before ministering was started - people would say "I give you permission to practice on me." It was said- not like an oath - but like a friend would say to another. Just today - on my morning walk, I had a couple of answers show up. These were questions I have had for - oh -let me think - some 45+ years!! Been asking God for the answer for a LOOOOOONG time! Never got word one before on that topic. Heaven was always like "brass" on this topic before. Why today? Wound too tight, before. Always thought I was REALLY close to getting it - and I never did. :o--> Today it just fell into place. Way beyond how I would have thought. very cooool. indeed. This stuff works that we are talking about on this and other threads. Peace and good journey!

WaterB: Whatever you "got" is what you start with. If you have only one dollar you are not broke. Although you may not have the answers that you are looking for - you have some answers. And those are what you use to move onward. Believe me... I can relate to that idea! Open your purse, see what you got... and go turn it into something more. You may not have enough to "buy" the answers you seek, today... but you have something to invest - somewhere. Part of what the Great Teacher does (and I don't mean VP), is direct us through the answers that we have. It is the NEW questions that come on the heels of the last answer that often are the next hurdle in our ability to perceive what He wants us to know. It actually is a BLAST! I know you asked specifically for some understanding about the Book of Rev. In that regard, I am sure my posts are a total disappointment. All I want to do is point to a path you can take that may have been forbidden to you in the past. Whoever you choose to listen to - will certainly impact your "results". I think Sir Guess was pointing to the fact that if we choose a more "spirit centered" approach, we will begin to notice other confirmation from - not only the Bible - but other sources as well. Wanting to understand is a wonderful state of mind. Anyone can see that from your posts! We were horribly conditioned to covet answers in our past. BTW - If God ever answers your question with a question – don’t be at all put off. Questions raise possibilities. Many times, my head was so far out of phase with “reality” that I needed a dose of questions just to pry my ‘death grip” off of some stuff I had trusted for 20 years. I had a pocket full of scorpions when I left TWI and thought I had the great treasures of life. Go figure?! But in my other pocket – I had a couple of shiny pennies – and that was enough to start over. :)--> And Jezusfreaky: If my little stories ring in your heart - that just means we are on parallel paths at the moment! So how's the view over where you're at? :)-->

WaterB - After reading SirG and his response - I would like to amplify something he sort of mentioned: How did the ideas about Christ get into our heads? Ever watch kids play with Lego blocks? Some just want to put something together so they can start playing with it - others invest more time to build a closer representation or likeness to something they have seen. Kids use a different approach because the beginning pictures in their minds are different. But often their works are of a similar type. Universal in nature. Some people approach the Book of Revelation for understanding because they want to know “the future” – and past history is littered with their myriads of interpretations. But much of the so called “rapture” or future interpretations have not been with us very long – I think it was Darby that is credited with bringing it to this country in the 1800s. Although he, like most, were/are convinced that they “have seen the truth” the fact is, it is basically someone teaching an interpretation rather than people seeing the same thing on their own and agreeing. Most of the common interpretations for the book have arisen due to instruction and suggestion rather than divine impressions chased down and pulled together. This is somewhat understandable. You can get a similar result by asking 5 children to each build a Lego train. All will build you a train out of the same blocks, but each one will build something that reflects their own idea –no two will be just alike. But you can’t escape the impact of the beginning impression – that they build “a train”. Even a cursory reading of Revelations suggests that the imagery is highly representational. Many of us ex-way folks sort of “skipped” anything that was highly representational because we could not define it with “a mathematical exactness and scientific precision”. (I’m also quite sure, we did no great service to the “easy” verses that we handled that way, either). SirGuess mentioned that other taboo or “unclean” scriptures bear witness to the spirit of Revelation. Much of the scripture in the Bible is more of a portal to learning rather than a blueprint for building. I think, part of what should be noted before anyone launches out into the deep, is to take inventory of the basic ideas that are ALREADY in our heads. Did someone say build a “train”? If so, don’t be surprised if what you see is what you already think. The original impression in our heads has a source and is most likely incomplete even as a whole thought. Most original impressions in people’s heads that are in fundamental Christian circles regarding the Book of Revelations came form Darby. At any rate, you can start with what you have, put blocks together, and then tear them apart and start over. Repeating the process is OK. Kids do it naturally. They are such honest learners. The invitation to become as little children certainly has overtones in this context.

Square Peg, You are very kind, indeed! If I simply read between the words that you said, I would have to think that getting free of some docrtinal fetters rings a bell with you, personally. You know, if you were to talk about that, that would be a kind of "speaking in a different tongue" ... and it would probably help someone else passing by. :)--> When you start to talk on a different level, so as to speak, you are speaking a different tongue - I believe this to be part of what SirGuess was saying.

Roy, I don't know about my ability to help you better understand what you have added. :(--> I sort of stink at completing the ideas of others... just ask my wife. ;)--> Actually, I think all of those share a similar "sound", light, etc. Sort of like an Owl when it goes swooping by - If you have ever had that chance you will know what I mean - it sounds like no other bird in flight. But I think that what you wrote was just fine, too because - as I read it, I thought about each and the different or distinctive sounds made by each. I was having trouble discerning them from memory - so I wrote what I wrote back to you... Now that does not mean that just because I had trouble pegging the differences, that there aren't any differences. We all have to continue to grow... you know? What I don't see today, I may see in split moment, tomorrow. Tomorrow - who knows, the sound of the fruit of the spirit may be perceived to be very different than I understand it, today. But I am content with what I wrote... just don't hang on to it too long! Use it to get you to another place. Peace

Thanks WB, and Rascal, and Roy, and... everyone else for the kind words. :D--> Ex 10: This thread seems to be helping people to express "where they are at" or “what it all boils down to”… I love IT! You can always find people if you know where they are at... and as I travel I meet sooooo many lonely people – threads like this can help people get connected, IMO.

Oh, By the way... I noticed that PAW has declared that I "Need a Hobby". He may be right about that. What I just wrote about is my "hobby". I want to help people get through the "house of horrors" - as it is portrayed - that faces anyone who would EVER dare to break free of the doctrinal stronghold that is around their neck - hung there like a great millstone - people feel obligated to hold onto certian scriptural requirements. That is not a hobby for me, as much as it is a passion. Maybe PAW is right... I need a hobby... I already have a passion. :D-->

Ever read some posts and wonder… “I wonder if that is true?” Well, below is my attempt to “re-create” how I think we can look, listen, hear, feel, - with our spirit – not just our limited human minds. As I read SirGuess’s posts – I was reminded of a time in Vegas when I watched… very intently - the hands of the dealer. Not that I can memorize the sequence of a deck of cards if someone rips them in front of my eyes... :)--> but - I can at least know what I heard - and I HEARD every card! ;)--> What SirGuess said - sounded like there was a bunch of truth in there to me!! I could hear it. :)--> Truth has a sound. It has a rhythm, a signature… (as engineers like to call it) (actually – it does not have just one – but a whole family of footprints that extend beyond the perception of the logical apparatus we call our brain)! People ought to be able to recognize the SOUND of truth. Validation need not come from exhaustive explanations – but validation can come from a single sound. A beating heart heard is worth a ton of other evidence that a person is ALIVE. It is considered to be primary evidence. So is the sound of truth. It must have the same rhythm that the spirit has or it is of a different type. Truth from the spirit has sound. Truth from the spirit has light - bright enough to spill into the shadows and reclaim darkness. Truth from the spirit has a feel. Truth from the spirit has a time – too. Truth that comes to us via the spirit is now. Let me play with this “time” idea for a moment – (ya’ll can play with the others at your leisure, if you want to.) :)--> Impressions and realizations ALWAYS come in the NOW. (They may employ a shuffled deck from our past, but the cards (word/picture) sequence will be NEW.) If you get something New… then you had to get it - Now. The past can never be New because the past is not Now. (So why are we taught to rely on the “past” things the spirit has said for our SOLE source of truth - Now??? ) To live in the past is to remain those kids SirGuess mentioned who dressed up like Super Heroes and jumped up and down on the bed – if we hold on to the notion of Biblical, Scriptural Primacy – we will never turn our attention to the things of the spirit. And where does that leave us? As kids. Never putting away childish things. Many sword-fight with the scriptures instead of using them as a window – a place to begin to learn the Sound, Light, Feel and Time of the spirit. Make no mistake about it, the Sword of the Spirit is NOT a compilation of scriptures… the sword of the spirit is the truth the spirit puts in your hand, now.) The “now” is like a great ocean current and if you “find” yourself “there”, you will find yourself living with (going in the same direction) as the spirit. There is much less struggle in the now. The “fruit of the spirit” and the “manifestation of the spirit” are always placed in this great current of Now. There was a time in my life when I would have chosen to sword-fight with SirGuess on certain “points”. Not now. Now, I just look and listen and see if what he is saying sings in the key of “NOW”. To me, his posts sound, look, and feel - familiar. Now, I guess I should quit tapping letters with my fingers and get on. I’ll see ya’all - on the other side of Now.

Actually, to carry the dough thaing a bit further... Bread is baked dough. Manna was stuff that had a VERY short shelf life. Everyone wants (seems like) bread that lasts forever and ever. Everlasting bread is here... it is Christ. The spirit would not brag on self... but would teach us of Christ and be the way to oneness. The role of the holy spirit is, in part, to provide the daily bread - our manna. And we should not be too quick to share it or hold over and eat it tomorrow. It may be full of worms by then. It is a temporal thing. Manna was a "NOW" food. Not a tomorrow food. The bread the spirit gives us, is first of all: 1. For us (not to share) 2. The nourishment we derive from it, the energy the inspiration, the love, the warmth... THAT is for sharing. Jesus did not share all things - his Manna - but he used his Manna for spiritual food and he gave Himself... not "his" Manna. 3. There is Manna to share. But that bread that is for others, often holds little nourishment for you. Another example: Peter, after he wnet with the Gentiles - did NOT stand up after they spoke in tongues and say "Hot DANG! Ya'll are nothin' but a bunch of creepy, crawley, thangs that God showed me in a sheet. And He told me to rise and Kill and Eat..." About then, one of the Gentiles would be thinking - "This God of the Jews REALLY hates the Gentiles for SURE!" That did not happen. Peter shared what the bread NOURISHED in his heart. "God is no respector of persons." Hope that is a bit clearer. You guys keep going. This is a good thread. I will go back to work... since that is about all I have time for these days. Peace... and Bon Apetit

Spiritual Pizza - that is the role of the Holy Spirit. Pardon me while I speak allegorically of the willingness (or lack thereof) of some to personally – look into spiritual things – by way of the spirit. I have met my share of ex-way people who are “stuck” in the notion of passive spiritual “training” wanting to find some man to lead them. I have met others who have decided to roll up their sleeves and go to into the kitchen, spiritually – not being taught of man. But being fed of God. So here is my comparison: The spirit is like a living dough factory. The problem has been that many desire and pray for nourishment but refuse to go into the kitchen. They want to sit in the living room and read and pray for daily bread. And to those who want to leave the cooking to the Apostles of Old, just remember… The greatest secret in the world today is that the Pizzeria is OPEN! Shoot – I mean, God is not in the business of handing out stones when we ask for bread. So what are we still afraid of? First of All – BRAVO! Talking about spiritual things in spiritual ways (like many of the posters have done) is like watching hand tossed pizza dough getting pulled and stretched and spun in the air. It is GREAT to see some home cookin’ again!! The kitchen is “OPEN”. This is real caf?are, I tell ya! ? Yet, I can see people still standing outside, with faces pressed up against the glass – they wonder if it is too dangerous to eat anything except the dried biscuit crumbs that they have left in their pocket – still wrapped in the original Rock of Ages napkin – served on the paper plate of PFAL. It was the only food they have ever known. Self appointed food police – with a mission to keep people out of the Pizzeria. They are bad for business. Spiritual business. They have become the enemies of those looking for real bread. They roam the streets of the hungry, warning them to stay away from the pizzeria. They can quote the recipe for biscuit dough by heart – yup. And they can even tell you in Greek – what the meaning of the word “teaspoon” is. And salt… oh yes – that would be NaCl when you break it down… so don’t use “salt” – the recipe REALLY means use the elements Sodium and Chlorine. Breaking things into their elemental parts is how to make good bread! – (so they claim). But – have you ever noticed that those food police folks often have never even baked a loaf of their own bread? And if they did, they found out it was not fit to eat! And can they throw a pie? No hand tossed crust will ever come from their kitchen! Just elements. Incapable of supporting anything living. So they stand outside, warning others not to enter the kitchen of the spirit and start making bread. It is way “too risky”. Too many counterfeit yeast purveyors out there, we are told. Spores are everywhere! You can’t even see spores so how are we going to discern spores… hmmmm? Besides, if the wrong spores get in there, it is likely that that batch of bread will end up eating US! No… you had just better leave the hand tossed pizza to the professionals that did it 2000 years ago. All these pizzerias should be closed!! They are a spiritual health risk!!! So hungry people sit. Unfed. Breaking off their last bits of their dried “wayfers” in their pocket. For them, I ask - Keep this thread going, please! There are some passing by that might have enough hunger to overcome their fear and walk in. And when they do, don’t just feed them your bread – no – encourage them to get their hands on a fresh batch of dough and encourage them to give it a toss. They might be very surprised at how great it tastes!

I meant to say, Good topic Steve! Many a truth is spoken in jest.

Shoot, Ex... FITW... I was worse off... I thought God was my Father... (not too bad there) BUT... I thought I was RIGHT... Move over VP... God ain't no respector of persons... He is talkin' to me too!! I had so much WayBrain, I thought, taught, & acted like, some condecending know it all... at the total expense of ANYONE outside the "household"... I was such an idiot... At least now, I know I was/am!!!

Vickles, I think when we were in, it was 4th Corps. Not sure... but I think so.

So, Suz... You had to be ministered to for that incident... Sorry to hear that.

Rocky, Thanks for taking the time to try give me a clue... I just read this article from the Herald Sun to try and get up to speed...But what the Heck is Tom talking about in context of this thread? I guess I should ask him. Tom: Or should I say COUSIN Tom :P-->...as Ex so CORRECTLY noticed... What are you talking about? Please connect a dot or two... (and leave DOT out of it, she's 11 corps like me)

Paris and Nicole? What the heck does that mean? Je n'sais pas! Q'est que vous dit?

Wonder, I sort of asked a similar question... Being alone does suc*. Agree with that. But leaving TWI gave us (Mrs. Too Gray and me) a chance to look at why we were so horribly alone. Hangups about non-essential stuff was keeping us alone in our own hearts. There are different ways of praise and worship, all sorts of stuff that formed a huge stumbling block to us. We were very STUCK in ?our? ways. We never entertained an idea of going back to TWI, though. For us, life had to move on. So I fell back to what was in my heart. In other words, before I was ?Way Corps?, I was a believer. Before I took the class, God did some great stuff in my life. And frankly, that had left a permanent mark on me. Everything else was just stuff in a tightly clinched fist. I needed to let go. So we went back to those realities and rebuilt everything from there. By focusing on Him, rather than doctrine, we found others. I have met some fantastic people since TWI days. My doctrine has changed 5 fold, if not more. Not because I now throw away things easily, but once you are fully ?out? from under the hold of TWI, things are ALLOWED to change, naturally ? normally. There is no pressure to remain true to doctrine at the expense of staying true to what is in your heart. What really matters is what YOU believe. Not what you are supposed to believe? not what ?they? believe. Best to you? in your struggles. Sorry for the long post. You made me re-live the incident. ;)-->

So when she said "I was BLOWN AWAY after that teaching!" It was not just a cheap figure of speech left over from the 70s. vickles, I can't fo the life of me remember who you might mean. Course, I don't remember that much, anyway.

Nika... Heard that! Something in the genes, I guess. It is happening in my family, too. For instance, my grandfather (x generations removed) on my Mom's side fought in the Continental Army under George Washington. Her other grandfathers were either military men or ministers after that. Generations of them. Of course I joined a cult… a bit of a family embarrassment. --> But, as of 2 weeks ago, my son got 2 nominations for West Point. :D--> So he is getting the family train back on the tracks. You are right… it is kind of odd. Seems to give credence to the idea that what some people become may have been born into them or handed to them from their forefathers.

OK, Time for a little history here.... This off a web search about our family names... Strange and Grey (spelled Gray... as it is in modern times) So TOM... (No longer SIR Tom) I submit that you are from my loins! (Well, actually, from the loins of my ancestors) I offer my ring...

Rocky, He seems to be kinda touchy about the "SIR" thingy now that I outed him... (Some people...) I guess we should all call him SIR Tom from now on... so that he continues to bring us Sir-Snow cones.