Too Gray Now

I am not speaking disparingly of Maltz, by the way. I have found his work to be much more interesting in the topic of "positive" and how that impacts our lives than anything in PFAL, Tony Robbins, et-al. Not really speaking disparingly of VP, either. We all gotta move on. And if being "positive" has a sour taste on your tongue, then (if you are like me, it did for the past 12 years - post TWI - because it does not work!) Give it another look... or not.

Ex wrote: About VPW’s Spirituality – nearly nothing was as quintessential as “Positive and Negative Believing” when it came to his spirituality. I believe the statement Ex said…because it fits with the happenings. VP co-opted and “borrowed” from what appeared to be an eclectic bunch of sources. Not the least of which were “happenings” and “awakenings” in the 60’s and early 70’s. Jimmy Doop and all the other RELLY early believers know more about this than nearly all of us at GSC. We all came from somewhere. His doctrine/spirituality of carrying a POSITIVE ATTITUDE was central to the whole thing, early on. Where did this come from? One of the places VP got a LOT of circa 1960s reinforcement about “positive confession” - was a book by Maxwell Maltz, M.D. titled “Psycho-Cybernetics”. I specifically recall him saying during some “live class” that what he (VP) was teaching about positive believing - was NOT Psycho-Cybernetics!! I think the book was on his “junk table” at the Advanced Class. Well, the book by Maltz (that was originally published many years ago) is actually quite good. It is interesting that in the Preface of the book that Maltz speaks to the way in which his ideas would NOT work. Here is what Maltz said… Positive thinking… “It literally CANNOT work when it is inconsistent with the self image.” In other words, you can not harbor a dark thought or feeling that you “suck” because some ministry (leader) said so - just “confess” the Word then you will be fine. It cannot work. Fear-based “faith” is a scam. VPWs spirituality is better understood, at least in this case, by reading the book from the Junk Table than by taking PFAL. VP decided it was HIS ministry, to take the World Over the World. (This “motivation” – of having a BIG goal- is straight out of Maltz). If he had stayed clear of the desires to build some big gig, he “might” have been able to remain an eclectic and been able to listen to those who got the “revelation” before he did… and who (in nearly every case I have been able to read) understood it better than he did. Jimmy Doop understood the Jesus movement better than VP. Maltz understood “positive confession” better than VPW. Any bets about the other parts of his doctrines which became our adopted spirituality??

Roy, I have read your thoughts for some time. I do appreciate your care and your process of growing... as I know you do for others. Just wanted to stop by and say, peace. :)--> Peace to you, my friend.

I was in the food processing business for a number of years and still LOVE to cook. One of the great things about Kosher Salt in grilling is that it lasts a bit longer under the heat. Gives it enough time to bond with exiting juices. It bonds with the juices which are leaving the flesh (heat makes the cells loose their water) due to shrinkage. Flavor leaves. Some of the flavor is volitale (sp?). Goes up in smoke. But, the BIG salt bonds with the intensified juices and locks them up on the surface. The water is driven off, but the flavor remains. Hence, the cooking show gurus love it... and so do I. :)--> :)-->

Dangit!!! I did it again!!! Posted after you without a re-fresh! Yup. I project - no DOUBT about that! Wish I didn't, some times, but I know I do. You are kind to remind me and give me an out for the assumptive (is that a word??) stuff I say.

Ex... ALWAYS nice to see ya ;)--> I posted right after you did, but did not see your posts befire I hit "post now". I like your theory. Kind of like what I posted just after you... Begs the question, why would we allow ourselves to become dependent when we thought we were on the path to freedom? Tons of reasons. Many posted on this thread. Interesting that a thread about "VPW's Spirituality" became a discussion about why some of us did what we did and got involved. But, I think, for many of us - we were looking for spiritual freedom. After all, it resonated with what was happeneing in many of us at the time when we found TWI. thank GOD I am not 19 anymore. :D--> I'd probaly do it again, if I were...

Our spirituality fathers the life that gets lived. The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. We may preach.... but what do we live? VPW may have seen the zenith of “doctrine” of the one body… as he claimed… But his ministry showed a different outcome on nearly every point he taught. Contradiction was the order for the Way. Examples: He taught the spiritual independence of us being free in Christ. But his organization created a dependence on knowing “the” truth (their truth) to be free. (Effect: Our freedom was conditional upon a “higher” interpretation. Dependence.) He taught the spiritual truth of being interdependent, as the body of Christ. But the organization which he fostered created a dependence on “those who watch for your soul” who had the awesome power of dictating to your life. (Effect: The kingdom of God is no longer within, but has representatives who we must consult. Dependence was the result.) He taught that all believers have a connection with God and that we had “access to the throne of grace”. But his organization created a dependence on many “mediators”, (Twig Leader, Branch Leader, Area Leader, Limb Leader, Region Leader, Trunk Leader, Country Leader, …. Finally the Man of God for this Time). (Effect: You are only free to listen to the God within IF it is sanctioned by many multitude of counselors. Dependence.) He taught that we were all free from the judgment of men and needed not give an account to any man. Nobody had the right to judge another person. But the organization that he watered and nurtured required accounts be given to the leadership whom “God” had appointed. (Effect: Freedom and interdependence were ALWAYS to be subrogated to the “next higher” authority. Dependence.) Every “spiritual” teaching of VPW, if followed in his organization, led to Dependence. His spirituality (the life which gets lived out by him) was one of a hierarchy of men, which enslaved through a method of promising freedom, but delivering dependence.

Allan, although your response was not aimed at me or anyone in particular - I would like to respond to something that surfaced in me from what you said. I think others may be here because we have more in common with those "other" cultists than we may realize. Lots of people have been a part of a controlling organization. Ex _______whatever. In that sense, I would expect that we all rather smell alike - we all sort of got into a similar barrel of pickles. We were in a barrel of pickles when someone slipped out and slappeda "THEM" label on our barrel covering up our label which said "US". So we fought back by going to their barrel and slapped a label on theirs that said "THEM" +odd brings up some excellent points, Hindu or otherwise... IMO - one is that we are integrated. If we can't get past these exclusive labels (read: inclusive except for those who don't fit in our barrel) then we are destined to live on the flatland of step number 300 out of a 1,000 (to borrow from his example). In or Out, Bond or Free, Male or Female, Jew or Gentile, - no difference is seen when we see all as 1. Integration is a "higher" place where spirituality flows from oneness. To tie this back in to the thread topic, was THIS kind of onness thinking part of VPWs spirituality?? I think he saw it, and said it, and taught it, but... sadly, did not have the discipline to do it. He spiked. But came back to the flatland of "THEM" and "US".

Laleo, I agree, as to no suprise that the "rank and file" were having sex. Shoot, at the ROA in 1974 you could sleep with someone... no need to go to sleep, lonely. Frankly, that was one of the attractions for us guys. We could get love, and give love AND sex. As long as everything was done "in love", it was OK.... I think, Laleo, that this was the general "rule" to follow at that time; if it was done in love, then it was RIGHT. No questions asked. I smelled marijuana more than once at the early ROAs. (Don't ask how I knew what it smelled like, ok? :o-->) But the level of love and acceptance in the atmosphere was very, very high. that by ITSELF was intoxicating. I remember walking around with a huge grin :D--> :D--> on my face for days after... not because I got laid (which I didn't, because my girl friend was not there and I believed in being faithful) - but I LOVED the feeling of acceptance that was so THICK you could NOT explain it... Except to call it the Love of God, which passes understanding.

WB How many knew, you ask? I don’t know. But I remember a time when something happened that would have served to shut the mouths of anyone who would have come forward. At the Advanced Class Special (a live class at some University – sorry – my 50+ year old brain can’t remember the name of it or the year – 1979???) I recall that the local paper wrote a scathing personal attack on VP. He read it one night before the whole auditorium. People hissed, ooooed, and laughed at each charge. One of the accusations was “… and it is commonly reported that Wierwille has sex with female followers…”. To which, when VPW read this, he cracked up! Laughed hard. Pounded his hand… in ridicule!! The WHOLE class (which was comprised of Way Corps, Clergy, and Advanced Class Graduates) responded with mocking, uproarious laughter… at the paper’s accusation!! We ALL laughed at the sheer outlandish idea of the such a baseless claim from an “outsider” – after all WE were the insiders. We would know if such a thing were so. And it wasn’t – (as far as ALL of knew – except for a few… of course). For those few women that were there, that knew better, this must have been a very ALONE and bitter moment – for if they came forward, now –with their “dirty” story, they were sure to suffer ridicule. Why? Well, the WHOLE upper level of the ministry had JUST finished laughing at what was, in reality, THEIR story. Tragic.

Just for sake of Maine Way-fer history, I was the first person ... to sign up for... the first PFAL class... that was ever run in the state. I was born an' raised in Maine. It's on my birth certificate - so i can prove that I ain't no counterfit'. But bein'from the County, I must admit that our accents up there are VERY different from Southern Maine. I hardly ever get back. I did spend three weeks in Rumford hospital in 1971 after I broke my leg during the State Ski Meet, jumping. :(--> Still got the limp, even today. I want to fly up to Aroostook again, this summer. - Maybe. Still have a few relatives there. Beautiful country. Some of the best on the face of the earth. That's a fact. I left Maine in mid 1975 after being at the U of ME, Orono... so there is a good chance that I don't know any of you that are there now. There were only a handful of believers there when I left to go WOW.

And why NOT reject someone else’s version or description of the mitten? After all, color blindness is a selective sensitivity condition… and remember, no human sees infrared light – although it IS present. The fact that we do not see it, is a selective receptor - sensitivity condition. Spiritually, there are many colors – and we are seeing them highlighted in this thread or yarn that knitted VPW. I resonate with everything I have read on this thread... probably because I knew VPW, was there in the early days, and ... I still remember my EARLY mittens from Grandma. :)-->

MORAL OF THE STORY: Perceptions of what we see, are based upon vibrations that our eyes actually detect (of course, color is nothing but different wavelengths of vibrations that we perceive). One person can look at the same yarn ( colored with flesh, spirit, knowledge, motives, reasons, experiences) that wove the same mitten (VPW), but only be sensitive to a few of the colors and reject that any of the other colors were there.

This is a good thread. “Quite a yarn we can spin - while looking at the same object – we all are.” (Yoda – “Revenge of the Ex-Wayfers”). STORY TIME: My Grandma used to use multi-colored yarn when she would knit mittens for us grandkids. The girls always liked them. But as I grew older, I did not want mittens that had multi-colors – too girly. I wanted “manly” colors or mono-colors. So Grandma would knit my mittens with gray or dark blue yarn when I started school. I was much happier to see fewer colors. :D--> :D-->

Can I look over the fence like Wilson on Home Improvement?

Well +odd, you know me!!! I am "in" if I am home... 2 bad I will be traveling :(--> But that does not change my interest in what goes on, one bit. I am packing my bags after I hit "Post Now". I am interested in ALL avenues of integrating one another. No difference... between those who believe they need to keep law to relate to God, or them who think that there is NO God... or the races, or the sexes... At some level, there is just no difference. Is that where we integrate? Could be. At least it is an easy place to realize we are one. Sounds like you had a very, good Christmas as well.

So if you were the rigger, but not the performer - my guess is the only thing that kept the wearer from "Greasing his Griffen" was a few dry runs (no pun intended) with like bags of sand. You don't have to satisfy my curiosity and - it may be a trade secret! Don't wanna give out something like that on an open forum!!

Ron Mexico is a REAL GUY!!! Come on, Now! He sells a Gator Aide knock off product for 7-11 stores called: "Herpes Slurppies" >>

I remember walking in on my Dad when he was with another woman when I was a teenager. I felt like someone had just hit me in the nuts – I was sick to my stomach. I had “heard” that he was playing around – but I had no first hand evidence – and I did not WANT to find any either!! Certainly not THIS way! But it happened. I was confronted with what I did not WANT to deal with. I had to stop defending his honor to my Mom’s accusations. He was worthy of at least some REAL contempt. He had earned it. He broke her heart. He betrayed her as well. He belittled himself. Dealing with stuff like this can range from simple to devastating. Regardless, it still needs to be dealt with. IMHO if people know about VP but still refuse to deal with the “bad” side or the “flesh” side of his personality… that says more about them, than him. If I am in denial – then it makes me part of the problem. Denial is all about closing the eyes. Refusing to admit. Mrs. W. stayed with VP – She gave us just cause (those of us who did not SEE him do heinous things) to stay in denial. All of the corps saw plenty of “little” bits and pieces of damning evidence. She added to the strengthening of the denial needed by us “followers” to participate in the charade of TWI. Who would ever think Mrs. W. did anything except help her husband by standing by him! Let’s look a little closer - True… she stayed with him. She gave him “cover”. She let it “happen” again and again by remaining silent. Denial helps NO one.

Congrats SnoBoy!! Doing what you love - is wonderful. ...better than striving to like what you hate - right from the get-go. I have had both experiences. Right now I am in this mode About 10 years ago I was in this mode... Tell us about your hockey opening night...

Yup, I am so bad at that MASSIVE game of deception - I don't even play gulf, anymore. ;)-->

Out there - I just checked your profile - (shoulda done that first - ) It says, plain as the letters on this page, "Rock Climber". Hmmmm now, if you were of average age in the 11th corps, that would make you about a 50 year old climber. Good Job, man! "On belay, ONE???!!!" "Belay on ONE!!!" "CLimbing ONE!!" "Oh $%^* - !! (Cuss, cuss - huff puff) F&%k that hand JAM hurts!) "SLACK!!" "Give me FUC***G SLACK!!" Ah yes... the fun times at LEAD :D-->

SnowBoy (aka - Out There) I see you posting here on this thread (11th) and I am trying for the life of me to remember anyone from the 11th corps who was a professional climber - I am stumped. Now do you mean Rock, Cliff, Mountain, Tree? Just what sort of professional climbing do you do? As for me, just getting up on the roof off a steady ladder is an accomplishment, today!! And I even liked LEAD!!!

Jonny L.... I agree. No Water/food is a bad, bad way to go. Yet the same “court” systems approve that we give sedatives to death row inmates BEFORE they get a lethal injection. For humane purposes. The courts decided to kill her… in a harmless way... it MUST happen “naturally”. (I thik I am about to hurl) The courts, like our representatives, are supposed to be a reflection of US - we the people. This is our country… not theirs. Death, like life, is deeply personal. Or, at least I think should be. Seems as though we are saying that any time ANY life is in the balance... Judges ONLY get to decide… when and if, there is ANY conflict. (And by the way, my Dad passed many years ago - cancer. He was young. It went fast. He suffered. I wept. We all tried. Everything. He died. But ... NO COURTS decided his fate. If they had…. I would be in DEEP conflict, today) If the idea of courts is to end conflict… AND THAT IS THE IDEA OF COURTS I think they just started a whole bunch of it. They resolved nothing. They inflamed the difficult.

My brother in law was in that whole time out in San Fran. with Jimmy D. I got involved a bit later. Jimmy had a way of RAISING the BAR wherever he went. By the time he got to Maine and did the Political WOW thing, I was gone. But if any of you know about this, this was a chance to elect a US Senator. But I know Hayes Gahag** and have talked with him since he got out. I do not want to get into 3rd party stuff... But Jimmy, if he wants, can shed a bunch of info to those who loved God, and got involved with the early Way Ministry. He saw more than nearly anyone else. What should he share? Whatever he wants. He has more knowledge of upper level ministry stuff in the formative years than nearly any other living human. BUT - Jimmy was about walking with God and - spreading THAT... Depending upon where the years have left him, and where his spirit has led him, whatever he choses to share, from whatever point of view, will be from a somewhat UNIQUE point of view since the results from his life, in fact, affected nearly all of us, in some way.