Too Gray Now

Dooj... Yes. For sure. In a very real sense. I used to think that statements like you just made were full of crapola - some sort of self-guilt-ridden person was trying to pull me down. Now. I think that many people believe that when they judge someone to condemnation and themselves to justification - based upon each one’s works - … they think that they are now in the “clear” and none of the condemning judgment “sticks” to them. This is a false lesson which comes from the pattern of blaming and forgiving handed down to us all who are living on this planet - which has gone on for thousands of years. – Like what Sirguess said: “like how people can and do pass on specific ways of blaming and forgiving in ways that continue for hundreds or thousands of years" Maybe I should stop now for a moment and let this sort of marinate. For eons we have been practicing this sort of “justifiable” justice. (Not saying it is "bad" - you know - you fry the guy who killed your wife... seems logical to me -right?) – but what if we practiced a more “pardon” based kind of justice? Just asking… what do you think would happen? What if imparting "light" was preferable to "putting out their lights"? As a side note: when 9/11 hit and I said to some friends… “We need to pray for these Muslims.” - You would have thought that I had killed George Washington!! Their looks and comments were like - “Kill them all! Turn their sand into GLASS with a REAL bomb….” But, I was simply realizing that a prayer for one’s “enemy” – really meant that truly good things SHOULD happen – to them.. Such as peace, love, care, forgiveness, etc.... We really do judge ourselves when we judge another.

Dooj... Great post. Sorry I was posting when you already had finished. Forgiveness is in waves! Realizations and truth realities come in that fashion - I think. For instance: The Other guy - - wave. (Where the other guy is partly/mostly... responsible and you decide to forgive him) The Meaner person - - wave. (When the other person was down, right, nasty - and you had no ill in your heart... yet the whole thing melted down... and got ugly - fast...) The YOU - - wave. (Where you have a "come to Jesus meeting" and see new light in the whole matter) Best to you - Dooj.

Sirguess, I really like the imagery of combing out the knots. Beautiful. "i think that points to what i meant by 'cascades of crimes' and how injury can go from bad to worse to catastrophic real fast the more layered and stacked and tangled things become navigating this knotted mess is a big part of our life's work ...all of our wisdom and peace and salvation is hiding in there and its the only knotted mess we have to work with and everyone has one" That second paragraph is so dead on!! Our lives are what WE have. WE do not have something else to barter, offer, or perfect. Ya know, (not to sound repetitive) since I last posted: But I found out that there were 4 other dogs in the connected barn that burned. And the only one they found was the one who was "His" (the owner's personal dog) sitting on the steps. The idea is clear to me ... SirGuess's second paragraph. Paraphrased: "Our salvation is in our experiences which have been reconciled." Reconcilitation is a big deal. A forgiveness, a love, a hurt, ...a tangled mess of personal reality... But my mind keeps going back to that dog... right now. These realities are more than "personal" they are universal... Everyone has different "experiences" and "grammar" - but the truths that we experience are universal. That dog... and his unflagging, unrequested love... is a universal. The experience that triggered this response in me is not. Too much is made out of the differences in our experiences... IMHO... our experiences count for very little... the question is... "Did you see it (not the experience) - but the "truth" which you saw with your own eyes?" If not... other experiences will come - in a knotted mess, of course - and we get to deal with the same universals again.

Ex, thanks for thankin' me Sirguess... I don't know what it is... but, when I read your stuff, it makes just way too much sense to me... does that make me a total stoner? :) And, - wierd thing is - we say things differently due to style but - you clarify my "engineeirng" prattle. Temple Lady, your post reminded me of the woman taken in adultry who was set up to accuse Jesus. Nearly everyone thinks that he "forgave her". He never did. Never. He did say "Where are all your accusers? - Neither do I accuse you." He did not have to forgive her.... because he never condemned her in the first place. Fascinating what that must have meant to her. She was sure familiar with condemnation in her line of work. Something happened to me in the last couple of days that I think kind of ties in to this thread... let me give it a go. First of all: There are many different levels for many things to be actualized. Sometimes the seemingly simple "mono mono" concepts are the ones that seem to expand... and twist and pick up more mass as they move into different spaces or awarnesses. Like Love. I have parakeets in the house. They seem to be aware of the affection side of love. (Even the rabbit - my daughter sure loves her - and the give and take between these two is something to behold!). Had a friend the other day tell me his brother in law perished in a tragic fire over the weekend. The surviving family went to visit the consumed house after the funeral, as a way of closure. And there, on the brick steps, was the man's dog - greiving - but sitting still protecting the "home" - hungry - and waiting for his master to return. That scene broke my heart. ... and that was "just" animal love for a human. So what is love... ? At what level? Where? When? Between Who? Why? Forgiveness is a lot like love... for in a way - it is a kind of love, a timely love, an unearned show of affection and care for another human being to help them move on. I certainly do not think these notions of love and forgiveness are just words or "la la land" hopefuls - I think these concepts are living and are all around us and - yes - something we can share and learn to reflect - or at least, try to do so. I just wish I could always - at least - love as good as that guy's dog.

Ex and LG... Agreed. Really. My post was only from the point of view when you come to the actual face of the culprit - and - for those times when it happens to be your own self. Does that make more sense? Hope so. This happens to me, still. I guess I am still a bone head. But, what I wrote has helped me in such cases try and not get a visit from that self-righteous part of me that still holds on.... LG, in cases where we have been sucker punched big time... and are like raped children - my post has very little to do with that sort of situation. For the stuff that I cause - I have wanted to get a grip on the underlying cause. And I think it can have something to do with my rush to judgment. Peace. Good thread!! And Sirguess, I always like Barney. :)

Forgiveness. Huge topic. Good posts. Really some GREAT stuff on this thread. I think much of what requires forgiveness is a follower/type emotion or – said another way – it is not an “originator” type of emotion. It exists because something else created the need for it. But what could create a need for forgiveness and why? The Self Inflicted Need for Forgiveness. (There are other needs for forgiveness which Sirguess and others have pointed out quite well. I am speaking about the damage which we do and why). The Occurrence: Judgment – to condemnation - creates a need for forgiveness – every time it happens. I usually get upset when: I am trying to justify my thoughts and processes. (This is why I feel the urge not to listen to someone else and simply say “Ah huh… Ah huh…” nodding my head in an affirmative fashion while I formulate what I am going to say next - as soon as they take a breath!! LOL) The Scramble: It takes a lot of mental work for your “self” to convince you (and the other person - possibly) that WHAT you are thinking and feeling is “true”. The self walls itself in for safety during perceived attacks. It might be something as slight as not being understood or judged “not justified” in the other person's eyes. At this juncture, all that may be needed is a sigh or roll of the eyes from the other person - or some feeling - and then we KNOW that we have already been judged - before we have even had our day in court... This further bolsters the self perception that our judgment is "true" or at the least we were wronged. Our minds work hard to make/form or create the thoughts which seem so VERY true – to our “self”. The Battle and Attachment of Judgment: The next action the “self” “must” take is defensive action – at a minimum. Or all-out-attack if necessary. ANYTHING which does not support the myth that the self is creating – becomes an enemy (the myth being: that the self is “true” and “right” and “justified”). At this point… any anger becomes justified and any attack becomes righteously warranted very easily. Why? Because of the judgment to condemnation. The Realization that So Often Never Occurs: Once we actually come to grips with the fact that we likely were wronged by nobody - except our own “self” in such instances – means that we NOW have an opportunity to shift the “guilt” from the “other” party to our own “self”. This does not usually go over too well with the self – like the proverbial lead balloon. Even so, usually only a glimpse of this reality and decent people MAY understand they have assigned the blame to an innocent party. This kind of mis-appropriation of judgment needs to be released and the “offending” party needs to be set free. Such an action would be forgiveness for reason and realization of innocence – Unfortunately, this often never occurs and forgiveness goes wanting – when it seems desperately deserved. Suppose the Realization Does Occur: Suppose we “see the light” and forgive the innocent party. Then what? What do we do when the guilt shifts and comes home to roost upon the “self”… the guilt will keep looking for a place because the self is a tireless and tyranical master for it will REQUIRE that SOMEBODY pay for this wrong!!!!…. Who is it going to be? Society? The Republicans? The Democrats? Women are fundamentally Stupid? Men are simply Neanderthals? The Devil (ask Flip Wilson about that one LOL) – or will it be the self? Well… regardless of who – the next act involves putting some distance between yourself and the perpetrator. Suppose the Self Accepts at least Some of the Guilt? Well, the only space the self can get form its own condemnation would be forgiveness. Now everything from this point forward can go one of several ways…. 1. Enter Christ. Game over. In the present, Christ never condemns us. This process is not well understood in the Christian church. 2. The Self becomes guilty as charged and sinks into depression. Instead of “space” the self gets its feelings attached to the shame and condemnation. This creates depression. (Not all depression, but depression of the same type as failure brings). 3. The Self finds another escape goat to lay the “sin” upon. (It never ceases to amaze me, like a bad horror show where the dead come out of the grave…. The convicted “self” sometimes will “rise again” and go searching for a different place to unload the guilt… ) The cycle repeats itself – the wound is re-opened… the self is “re-vindicated”… so it thinks - etc. “Don’t Pull that Trigger!” All of this time and energy – Judgment has created little or no “truth” - and has become a low-energy attracting mechanism in our lives… causing other destruction to be attracted in our direction. It is a very real cycle – built upon a myth. Like a justice gun in the hands of incompetent judge – we end up pointing it at whomever… the “judgment pistol” or “condemnation gun” gets pointed during the heat of battle – culminating in a single act… and the mythic self pulls the trigger. Hopefully, forgiveness follows AFTER the bullet from the condemnation gun has hit its mark. And, from what I have seen, that fiery bullet can travel through many, many people – creating many unnecessary victims. Many unjustifiable. But, sometimes - yes only rarely - it seems - we hit the rightful “offender”. But what happened to being slow to wrath…? And what of forgiving those who wronged us willfully? And what if the rightful offender was my own self? What if You had to Stop and Load Your Gun? I suggest we have an interim step to slow things down a bit. Be like Barney Fife and keep our condemnation bullets in our pockets. Just don’t load the gun. It would go a LONG way to cutting down the number of follow up visits the “Forgiveness Doctor” would need to make.

Mr. O'malley - I am glad that you grabbed onto the concept and said something about it in a positive way - for it was surely meant that way. The strength of such language "tricks" as the parachute comparison - rests upon the hope that someone "gets it"... So, if it bombs or works... it is a lot like humor. :)

Pardon, me - please... Sirguess, I went through this with my wife this morning while we were taking our morning walk. She said "That is really cool. Very cool." So... thanks for that. Also, I want to commend Mark and George for staying at it and keeping a civil tone about them. I was beginning to think that civility had suffered the same fate of long underwear - not many people use it anymore... So many times, threads seem to take on the appearance or personna of a person throwing frisbees for a pack of over-excited dogs. As a closing attempt at a summary illustration - I offer a few thoughts. Sometimes I have been referred to as "Too Old Now" instead of "Too Gray Now". Let's get it right!! :) I think there is a LOT of gray out there... nothing is as black or white as I used to think it was... including all kinds of proofs of many things I used to think were nailed down tighter than the proverbial drum. Well, dog gone if the top didn't pop off and out jumped all manner of "neat" concepts that someone had put in there. They all ran out on me - the broken cistern holding no water. That is what black and white thinking did for me... Said another way; I let someone else pack my parachute for me. The tangled lines of thought from PFAL put a hurtin' on me when my chute didn't open. I was lucky to have walked away. But, I didn't give up skydiving for good - like some have... I just quit letting someone else pack my chute for me. - and it took me along time to get comfortable with packing my own chute. A long time. So, it seems - JJ - a similar question might be - "For you skydivers - pretend for a min. that there is no air" Well, that sort of puts the kybash on future jumps with a standard parachute, now doesn't it. I don't think the kind of God exists that I once thought did. But, no big deal - I have a different type of chute, now. Sirguess has taken some jumping lessons from some other instructors :) Mark went back to packing a full canopy, classic style and has a deep appreciation for the sport and the skills of those before him. I wouldn't want to push George into an airplane any more than I would like to be pulled from my chair by the arm by a drunk, slurring woman shouting "Come ON!!! Let's hit the dance floor!" I offer a very simple explanation to anyone who attempts to do such... "No! I don't want to!!" That should do it. But some people just can't take no for an answer. George might appreciate not having his arm pulled by zealots sporting a jumpsuit button saying "Insured by God - So Let's JUMP!". I could almost hear George dryly say "Happy Landing!!!" Anyway, I have beat this to death. I gotta pack my chute for tomorrow. And don't anyone try and stop me, either.

Sorry Jumpin.... To answer your question The path from my first post several years ago would take years to describe in detail. It has been filled with a tremendous amount of reading and trials. Please do not think that I am a bold one. Actually, I am a chicken. I try much, MUCH less than what I read. I am c a u t i o u s. So... please PT me if you want anything close to details. I do not, nor will not, put my heart on these forums. Too much fighting, if you catch my drift.

Oh yes.. one other thing... Garth... My son is in the Army and happens to be home for a few days... Tillman was killed by friendly fire. So have many, many, many other soldiers. This is not a "new" thing. It is an "old" thing. And when it happens... the Army and the men who did IT... feel shame and remorse... and other horrible things - for years and years. You attributed his story being dropped from public discorse to the fact that he was an "un-believer". Garth. That is not the reason. Not at all. It is an issue of shame and guilt for the survivors. His sacrifice was no more (or less!!!!!!!!!!) than anyone else who has died... in combat. Regardless of WHO killed him. Friendly fire is fact of combat. For all countries and times, it is a well known fact. Then… I and my son would say… Do NOT start to change the facts so they fit a myth for your argument's benefit. It is a disgrace of the highest order.

Garth, Actually, I did post before and did not see... you were right on that one... BUT HOLY _ _ _ _ - did you see that I mispelled "thinking" in my last line.... of my post?? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha ... I am SUCH an IDIOT!!!!! Oh... man... I am ROTFLMAF. Some times, in these things.. we all try to be so square-rooted on everything.. and then we go and blow any smiggggin' of credibility like I did... Ya gotta admit... that mispelling, at that time, in that place... Oh well... Also, for the record, I was not trying to dissmantle your post... or point. I figured you know the difference between the two. It seemed to me that you were "almost" saying that Abert did not. He did. And your post of him, initially was in a misplaced context - as far as he goes.

I know, this is not my thread... but I just wanted to make an observation... because it could be of value. The title of the thread is not ... "Assume for a moment there is no Religion...." It is “Assume for moment there is no God”. These are not even close to the same statements and should not be confused. On this topic, Einstein - in his work on "Religion and Science" - is most abundantly clear. And for the record, he wrote much about the causes for the rise of religion... and his own beliefs about God. However, Garth seemed to confuse matters a bit when he mixed up the nouns – “religion” and “God”. I think a reader would get the sense as if Einstein meant they were one in the same. He failed to point out that Einstein was very clear about his thoughts regarding God and that those were not at all of the same content as his thoughts about religion. There are many, many, many, many quotes in which Einstein seeks to outline his perceptions of God, and separate them from religion. Einstein derived his thoughts about God through science… rather than religion. "Why bother bringing this up?" you may ask. The ways in which we comment on topics says something about us… I just didn’t want anyone reading that Einstein had rejected all notions of a God… that "notion" is simply, false. Einstein, in speaking to mans’ newest penchant for the dismissal of an orderly universe - in favor of a universe that simply occurred via randomization of forces - he said… "No, this trick won't work...How on earth are you ever going to explain in terms of chemistry and physics so important a biological phenomenon as first love?" “My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals Himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind." Those who make no distinction between religion and God - and assume that the death of the one means the death and obliteration of the other... or that the absence of God means no more religion... or that that the absence of religion means no more God... just haven't thought much about this topic, at all. They are different. Very different. And any thinkihng guy... like Albert, knew it as well.

Taking the topic question to heart - Jumpin Jive... My first post at Greasespot was "Got Any Holy Milk Left?" The idea was to see if people had ditched as many of their beliefs as I had... and if ANY of it remained after TWI... for me, not much. I was sort of asking a similar question to yours. However, I chose to consider your question this way... Since it is said that “God is light. God is Love. God is Peace.” Etc… then… one must wonder... if this is what we will find ultimately... If we get rid of the notion of God, do we of necessity get rid of Hope? Must we sink in gloom and despair? (Some will, if the “reality” is that there is NO hope – for there is no God). Is there no other path towards betterment? Is there no love? (Some say it now – that love is dead… for it never was… it was just emotional, childish attachments) Is this the kind of thinking that will “take over” in the absence of the God of Love? Do we start a war against peace – simply because it is the most likely (statistically predictable) outcome of the human species? Do we start to campaign and riot for anarchy as the natural state of man? The loss of any of these things is tragedy waiting: of huge proportions. If you, fear that any of these are REAL and Possible outcomes, I suggest you stay put. Keep your beliefs. They will protect you. If, on the other hand, you are willing to suffer the shock that will settle over you, - maybe you will deal with it, maybe you will not... then I suggest you proceed VERY slowly. If on the other hand, you are a boyant type... jump on in... hope for the best... treat everything as OPEN SEASON... and consider it all and decide later! There may ne some who will treat my questions like they are stupid and silly and look like fear tactics to keep people in the fold or to suggest that un-believers are the bane of human existance... Trust me. I am asking (have asked, already these questions). They are honest questions. Because they are possible outcomes. Here is another point... If God is not, then the Devil is not. If he is not... then from whence cometh deception and destruction?? I no longer fear deception from "devils" in the same sense at all. I am an "experience experimenter" and a careful one, too - to be sure. I have found that the basis for all deception is... in me... it is not "out there". So - I had to learn what is likely to deceive me... i.e. what in me has strong attractions... look at them, honestly. It took me 15 years to SLOWLY deal with these issues before I was "ready" to entertain what if's and chase them down through experience. Not saying it will take you 15 years... but you indicated that you were branching out, slowly in your reading. Reading is one thing... Doing - well that is quite another step... LOL. I found a way to destroy what I believed, usually more than once!! But, before I destroyed ANYTHING, I knew I wanted to emerge stronger in some faith as a result. That has been my path. So I resonate with SirGuess on that one.

Wow - I go a way for a few days and miss all this.... In my opinion, we may just have ourselves some religious-phoebes (read that line like Yosemite Sam) who do not distinguish between "belief" and "religious belief"... or somethin' else… and just want to squirt on a thread - I read this thread from start to finish. I thought this thread was about seeing and then believing - Did I miss it??? Anyway... something - based upon the evidence we all see every day... the same evidence... At least that Clay posted. CM - GREAT THREAD TITLE - (and as the thread topic “starter” - you get the same rights as anyone to set the tone and topic... IMHO). I thought your first post was quite clear. But then… enter the phobes. Yes, the religo-phobes - It seems that some think this was a sort of salvo to start a fight... like wagging a bare butt in the Castro district... in front of a homophobe - flaunting "your belief in GOD” under their very atheistic noses... Man – oh man - if anyone thinks that... was what was CMs idea... my only comment is - what have you been thinkin...?? Who has been beatin’ you guys up??? Who has p i s s e d in your Cheerio's? My guess is, you've had your “self” degraded with terms like UN-believer – PAGAN… etc. by some religious folks. But those labels do not really hurt you guys…. No, I think it may have been the accompaning scorn – that got under your skins… and you don't like it... If scorn is what you see... then scorn is what you have been seeing.... So if you see and "create" scorn from your own belief/perceptions... then you are stating what you believe in your posts. Now let me say this… Not that I would NOW defend religious people who attack you guys - because I SURE would not - that is crap!!! (IMHO) No matter if we got whacked during TWI years or --- when we suffer ridicule from “friends” and relatives AFTER we decided our new belief is that of proclaiming - splinter... or traditional... or ... atheism. And Garth – that link – which I listened too – your point was what to Clay???? Honestly. I hardly think that Penn and Co. with their expletives and iconoclasm had much to offer except destruction or de-construction…. So – what were you reacting to… ???? - Clay’s statement???? ... which was: in the air you breath in the life you live in the boundless heart Did this sound to you like a MF stupid bible thumper....??? Do you have more in your heart than trite-stuff and bashing links… or bile for "believers"??? Garth, please read and check out The Knowledge of Freedom by Rudolph Steiner. This is written by a guy - about 100 years ago - who was rejected by nearly everybody... but ended up starting (although he did not try) a world-wide movement. A thinker. Articulated the concept of... Western Mysticism - tested by science.) My point is this... We all – “believer” and “un-believer” could benefit from his work. Why did I post this... ? Because although my beliefs have changed DRASTICALLY, since TWI - I know that in my soul I am a believer… Let me define, please... meaning: I use the lack of significant doubt to allow me to consider a thing… in my mind. That is what "I" mean by belief. Like Descartes… I think. Therefore, I know – I am. And I know that I have an “I” because I BELIEVE… We are not creatures of proof. We are, creatures of belief. And CM… just for the record: I do believe in the air that we breath… the love we share… and a boundless heart – Oh and SUDO... this is not a resonse to your last post... nor anyone in particular... for that matter... I just happend to read this from start to finish and post. I think the only one I mentioned by name that may have questions is Garth... but that was only because his link was ????? what to CM?

Fellowshooter - Here it is!!! Your own personal link to Christmas Cheer! Just turn up the sound and enjoy. :) Flash Site: How Rednecks Wait for Santa

... NO.... Thank YOU, NIKA!! btw... you might like the link I just posted on the 11th corps site. HA HA HA HA The guy that sent it to me is only slightly touched in the "upper sto-ory". I know there is probably some sort of law against thread advertisements and promotion... but shoot, it is for your younger corps... and they (we) so much more need the traffic than y'all ;)

Hey - Johnny Lingo!! Simon, and all you other guys... Check this out! This is how REAL MEN get into the holiday spirit - (needs audio level high)

Maybe private topic John R. in FL He SHOULD have a friend, who knows a friend, ... etc. (Just guessing here, because I heard they were in FL (Bruce and Carole) - I do remember Amy, too, - nice girl. But lost track of all of them. Sorry

NIKA - that was one of the funniest things I have read - my Mom, who rarely ever drank... always said she didn't have to - because she would get her twords all wisted - without one drink So I called her on the phone, and read it with a Foster Brooks sort of imiatation. She about died laughing! Thanks.

duck now... very funny... duck now... very funny...

That, my friend, is an observation I can get behind. :P I was just thinking that we, the corps, that were liked and appreciated... were like the plumage on a peacock. In other words, we supplied part of the "glory" of what otherwise was, a nasty bird. I believe Mrs. W. would have agreed as well with my analogy.

did not know he had died... He was one of the key inspirations for Blazing Saddles - which is one of the reasons that movie was so funny - wihtout being politically correct.... "See No Evil and Hear No Evil"... is one of my family's favorite movies - starring Richard Prior and Gene Wilder. I know he had "potty-mouth"... as you mentioned, Raf... but he could find a way to say some VERY funny things - about stuff that most people would NORMALLY be fighting about... and he could get BOTH SIDES LAUGHING at the same time!! I think, that may be a gift - I know the gift of "humor" is not in the Bible... but I think his humor was mostly "good" in that - it tended towards peace - Thanks for letting us know, Raf

George... That link was FANTASTIC - - Thanks... I do hope that people on this site know how to read a near-perfect "british" type of dry wit - And the stuffy folks are not put off by the title of the work... If they are... it is their loss... Thanks again!!!

Some of the finest people I ever met in my life were WC. No exaggeration, either. Kind of makes you wonder... such a dangerous and destructive cult - LURES some of the finest people on the face of the earth... Seems a little bit like a contradiction of sorts, ya know? Kind of like the fine plumage on a peacock - attractive, nice, beautiful - But, damn - the bird that those feathers cover is one nasty, little creature.

Can't we all just get along? :)