CircleGame

Before I knew VPW was a sex abuser, I thought the CF&S class was to get people to realize that you did not have to be puritanical in order to be a good christian - i.e. have sex only for procreation, only use the missionary position, etc. As most of TWI were hippies or exhippies, that was probably a relief. Most born-again groups were labeled as "strict", puritanical, etc. I thought the original sin is masturbation teaching sounded "cultish" but of course thought the rest of TWI was aokay for awhile. As far as homosexuality, premarital sex, even "willing" extramarital sex, you might try a look at another website that has ideas similar to VPWs??? Only they are very out in the open and I assume they don't believe in abuse, rape, etc. Thought maybe they do, I havent' read it thoroughly. They have interesting things to say about Bible and sex, and the puritanism that developed over the centuries. Mainly it was ownership of females that influenced the puritanical attitudes. Was VPWs adultery the #1 thing that bothers most people or the coercion, abuse?? I can't help but think to each his/her own...at this time in my life.....of course I don't believe in abuse, but to each his/her own....mainly because when you try to be something you're not for a religious ideal....the religious ideal turns out to be false.....TWI version of "best" is such and such and then top leaders don't do it. [This message was edited by imablvr? on September 22, 2003 at 16:04.]

"I've squandered my resistance on a pocketful of mumbles such are promises All lies and jest still the man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest... lililil....."

Beauty - that is a question!! Looks can change - are you really what you look like?? Different people can react according to what you look like - a good hair day, a bad hair day, flattering clothes, unflattering clothes, weight gain, etc. Pimples when young, lines when old. Men and boys REALLY react to a pretty or beautiful woman, and it can be surprising. Girls and women react to a good looking guy - and they can be surprised. However, males can be so much noisier!! And the impact can be deeper. For positive or negative. How different are boys and girls under 12?? They are different.. though all boys aren't exactly alike and all girls aren't exactly alike. At different times there have been different cultural expectations of what it means to be a man or a woman and different levels of getting people to "conform". Women historically have been more susceptible, however in the 90's it seems the tuff but good looking woman is the way to be - ala La Femme Nikita, lawyer shows with female lawyers, etc. Good health makes for good looks and good health is important. Excessive vanity is not important I don't think.

Wow Ginger Tea, excellent post!! I came here a little for "nostalgia" (lingo talk, this & that), closure, and information as to why I felt "vague" about TWI - vague feelings of good and bad, believing it and not believing it. Some of my "vague" feelings have cleared up. It's good to read about other people complaining about things I complained about to myself - "good" vs "best" for example. That was a real killer and a killjoy!! Sometimes I grudgingly followed, sometimes enthousiatically, sometimes gullible, sometimes not at all. Best is not really best and good is good!! GS cafe is good!!

To bring this back to the top, I think this is an interesting thread. I've read about a page so far. Why diss ALL of VPW's teachings? We were taught (or it was suggested) that we not listen to rock & roll too much because of their lifestyles. Why diss rock music & entertainment? Why totally diss VPW? Everything has some truth..and you can put something aside for years, and then go back and learn something. I put some rock music aside, and then listened to it again and it sounds great!!But narrow minded beliefs in one person is unhealthy I think.

Double post, sorry!! [This message was edited by imablvr? on July 28, 2003 at 16:15.]

I hardly ever read the Bible anymore (gasp!) I enjoy reading self-help books by Deepak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Wayne Dyer and others. I also enjoy history books and biographies - I recently read "The Greatest Generation" by Tom Brokaw. Good book!!

The waters off Key West: Sunrise Sunset Aquamarine

More and more I thought of the Way as a "paper ministry" great on paper (books, mags, classes and music) but so fluctuating in life. Harshness, impatience etc. Now I understand. It brings back when I was in Jr. High, tempted to copy a book report off the sleeve instead of reading the book. I did copy once or twice - it was hard work rearranging the words and paragraphs, and I was nervous handing it in. Did it a couple of times because I didn't have time to read the book. Also cheated a couple of times in Jr. High on tests. TRUE CONFESSIONS first revealed HERE at GS!! VPW must have started copying and cheating a long time ago - HS/College/Masters - the nerve to plagarize! An ordained minister - in his 30's/40's!!Wow, that is something!! I would like to have been a part of BG Leonards ministry. He sounded sweet! His writing style is better than VPW

Dear BOW-TWI - Wow, your story sounds so heartbreaking - I pray for your psychological and physical healing. You sound like a kind, wise, strong, committed and stable Christian woman. In SO MANY of these posts - "leaders" sound worse than just being someone who is off-the-wall, making a mistake, not walking right, being a little harsh, etc. They sound like PHARISEES!! They are jealous and threatened by good believers like you, just like the Pharisees in the days of old were threatened by JC and good believers in those times. You and everyone else is TOO GOOD for those PHARISEES!! I left in 86, things weren't so bad, I thought some leaders were "off", I was tired of it, and I was tired of "hanging in there" so I let go. But in so many of these posts...the leaders look REALLY evil. Yes, they were tender, enthousiastic and committed people who tried the best they could once upon a time but now they sound as bad as the Pharisees. [This message was edited by imablvr? on March 27, 2003 at 16:21.]

The #1 musical I loved was "Sound of Music", not only was the music GREAT, the cinematography, the acting and the PLOT were great! It was a true story - the Von Trapp family moved to Stowe VT and had a ski lodge called the Trapp Family Lodge. I also read they didn't get much money for their story - Maria sold her story to a German publisher - they published and later sold it to Disney. You'd think Disney making zillions of $ from a musical about a real family would give them some money but they didn't. A bad deal is a bad deal - no "grace" in show biz - (except for the beautiful Grace Kelly)Another fav musical - Cabaret - so lively and had a plot (as far as I'm concerned) Queen Latifah seems like someone who just throws her body around - big deal? Cath Z Jones dancing and singing was excellent and I like the song "All that Jazz" but that's the only part of the movie I liked. The Hours was thoughtful and dealt with depression and death, not subjects for everyone, which is why I'm surprised it was nominated for as much as it was - I'm glad Nicole won - it took a lot of work and a lot of guts to do that - she didn't look "ugly" just plain. "Phantom of the Opera" was praised by a lot of people, but I just thought it was an expensive light show, enjoyable to a certain extent, but really not worth the $$, it was hard to admit at first that I didn't really like it, but here in GS I'm confessing!!

I thought Steve Martin was a GREAT host! He's so funny - sort of a wry sense of humor. I've always liked him. Chicago big winner - but I thought that movie was over-rated. Plot nothing, music just ok, costumes good, Cath Z Jones excellent, Renee S. skinny and ratty looking (she's supposed to be "glamorous?)Queen Latifah-just a big, black woman, that's supposed to be talent? Richard Gere is always a good sleaze. Gangs of NY was ignored, I thought that related a very interesting piece of history in an excellent way. The Hours - good thoughtful and sad movie. Nicole K EXCELLENT - didn't even recognise her in the movie!!The Pianist got a few awards, sounds like a good movie. Everyone seemed to look and act appropriately

Chwester - Music IS spiritual! It does not have to mention "God" to inspire the listener to think about God. Uplifted emotions can help one think not just of "God" but thankfulness, peace and other "Godly" emotions. Angry songs can unblock a person, help them be honest. The land is spiritual, "The hills are alive with the sound of Music". Yes they are. That is why there is different music in different locations. I guess I am like a transcendentalist (now). And of course "before" (in the Way) I was encouraged to be rigid. But before I was in the Way, I was a transcendentalist. Sometimes I felt confused and insecure, and that is one of the reasons I was attracted to the Way. Then I left the Way and sometimes felt confused, depressed, etc. That is all part of life and I am glad I left the Way, and I am also glad of this GS Cafe. Ex way people have a lot to talk about!

Al Poole - giving away my age, something a woman should never do!! However, I am glad I grew up when I did - I listened to good (natural) music, and got into twi1. Why do I think the music of the 60's and 70's is so good? Not just because I was young. I truly think it is because those people were talented. My mother thought so too (A WWII)Classic R&R is what I like - and folk rock too. JA47646 - Billy Joel born of the wrong seed? I heard back in the early 80's that a member of his band took the class. Also someone in Earth, Wind & Fire.

Hm, seed boys? Yes, that used to make me feel sad. Mick Jagger was a seed boy of course! But Stones music makes me feel happy! (I know its only R&R but I like it). Yes, anyone who is successful is either born of the right seed or born of the wrong seed (isn't that in PFAL?) Yes, that made me feel so sad, and suspicious! (Don't enjoy anything in the "arts", it's done by seed boys!!) Well, I don't care anymore! I like the album Aqualung! Really good for exwayfers!

Wow, what a lot of posts! Music is spiritual. My mother listened to Beethovan, Rosemary Clooney, Ella Fitzgerald, and when I was in 3rd grade 1955 I loved Beethovan but was indifferent to all the rest. Then along came Elvis. When I first heard him, my mouth dropped open and my mother said "oh it's that horrible truck driver from Memphis, Elvis Presley!" SHOCK! My mother doesn't know everything! (And neither do any other authority figures!) Before Elvis, I read a book of Bible stories, cover to cover in about 3 days. It was thick too about 2-3 inches thick! I was hot for God! Very excited. But my local church didn't teach like that, and neither did my friends teach. So R&R became my religion. I thought Elvis was a new disciple, a new J.C. I was disappointed when I found out what he looked like. So anyway, I loved R&R, folk music, British invasion, acid rock, and then I got into the Way. WOW, a church like the 1st Century!! Though sometimes I was bored, confused, indifferent, skeptical, and sometimes blessed. I loved the Way Music. I got into the Word in Miami 1978, and there was a good group there- Sweet Freedom. Also Donnie Fugit, our branch leader was a musician himself and a big fan of R&R. He had a huge record collection! Melody Keesler was a good musician also, I still like listening to their tapes, their music stands whether or not I'm in the ministry. Joyful Noise, Pressed Down, all good music. I like the old hymns too - Garden Alone, Higher Ground, etc. Music alters your mood, and makes you feel like you are in contact with something bigger than yourself. My favorite album of all time is the Byrds "Mr. Tambourine Man" Love the jangly guitar, harmonies, variety of rhythms and messages on the album. Hm, Mr. Tam Man, a pied piper? Weel, maybe that's what attracted me to the Way.....

Hmm, it's in the Bible isn't it? The Way meant "unbelievers" as anyone not in the Way really. It could also mean a so-called believer who wasn't strong. Really, I didn't like Way Believers reminding me of that. Some of my best relationships during my Way years were with unbelievers! (Who were usually brought up Christian, but didn't believe as adults) So, now what are we? We all believe in something. Ourselves, God, God within us, God in nature, God in Music and Art. That's another thing, a lot of Way believers put down Art, Music, Movies, etc. "Oh that is so off the Word!!" No kidding! I never stopped liking "old man" music, movies, etc, but during Way years would feel "guilty". Also felt guilty for liking "unbelievers". Sometimes even felt guilty for liking to hang out with my natural family. Yes, Way Leadership reproved me on a lot of really stupid things. I would get mad, but then feel "guilty". Oh well!!