quote: What do we do if we have the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation? We cover it closely with silence, we never mention it, and the thing dies there and no one is injured.
The problem, Mike, is it didn?t stop there. VP operated under a cloak of silence, wrongly called, the love of God. He continued to steal, kill and destroy God?s Word in people?s hearts throughout his life. Where was the love in that?
If his definition of the renewed mind was so right, why were so many hurt in the process?
You asked a very interesting question: ?If VP's definition of the love of God was so right, why did believing it hurt so many people??
Well first of all, according to many here, it wasn?t actually VP?s definition but who's ever he lifted it from. I say it was God, ultimately, that he got it from. And this applies to more than just the definition of love.
BUT, it doesn?t answer your question, either. That?s why it?s an interesting one.
In answering it, however, you must realize that I?m going to so from MY perspective, not yours.
There are several components, two big ones. To keep this short (I got work to go to) I?ll stick with only the two.
*****
The first is that we never REALLY believed the doctrine Dr was teaching us. We believed some of for a while, but there was a lot of mental assent, plus a lot of winging it and faking it. A few did do some 5-senses mastery of the material, in the earlier years, but drifted away before being able to begin spiritual mastery.
SO THIS is one of the big reasons people got hurt, the large masses. We were not very diligent to get all of what Dr taught. Our efficiency in applying our partial knowledge was low.
This ?Love Way? teaching and this whole thread indicates this. Starting in 1987 there was a big cry amongst rebel grads (mostly CES now) that Dr never taught us about the lordship of Jesus Christ and our proper relationship with him. This outcry was correct in protesting the absence on JC in the TVT, which by that time had developed at that time to a real monster. However, that outcry was totally false in that Dr DID teach it, but we ignored it. The ?Christ Formed..? teachings and the formed Christ (as opposed to the created Christ) were just never a part of TVT. No one talked about it.
We were into the TVT more than what Dr taught.
*****
The other major reason is that what Dr WAS teaching (print and tape) to us was the first MAJOR threat to the adversary in 2000 years. Because it was so right on, the adversary pulled out all the stops to suppress it.
*****
So, putting the two major reasons together, we were not diligent in putting on the WHOLE armor of God, but we did go into battle with an adversary who DID put on all his armor. CREAMO! We got creamed as a result.
quote:After Goey has a word with you, and after you put it all together, can you please explain to Goey how it is I can in good conscience subscribe to posting as to how Kenyon, VPW, God, whoever... had some real good wisdom in advising us in a certain context of ?The Love Way,? that in MOST cases silence (or as much silence AS POSSIBLE) is a loving balance that promotes better family peace. It?s better than the two imbalanced extremes, ranging from tortured inappropriate silence, and extending to indiscriminant publication of hurt and hurtful messages
Mike, I am not interested in saving you time. You are posting this stuff, so it is your responsibility to explain it. This is another dodge that does not adequately address the point of my post - that is Wierwille's error or lie about Young's "translation" and the self serving hipocracy of Wierwille's interpretation of 1 Cor 13:7.
So Mike, would it then be "real good wisdom" for a family to be silent about sex abuse within itself - if dad is abusing the children - to keep the peace ? Or if the neighbors found out that the the man next door was abusing his children - that they should shut up about it because it might disturb the "family peace" next door? Or does this only apply to your hero Wierwille?
Goey: Mike has asked me to explain the following to you: He is what is known in research circles as a dumbass. I'll spare you the empirical formula and stoichiometric data, but simply put, his particular taxonomic sub-species is Dumbass craniorecta invertalis, more commonly known in the vernacular as the Western ....headed Dumbass.
The primary distinguishing characteristics of D. craniorecta are:
1) Mental disjunction with reality.
2) Solipsistic egocentrism.
3) Occasional bouts of paranoid mania.
4) Social retardation.
D. craniorecta can frequently be confused with D. ignoramus except that D. ignoramus may be successfully expunged with the proper application of anti-idiocy agents. D. craniorecta is incurably pernicious.
D. craniorecta can sometimes be found cohabiting with D. anofossalus ambigua who, luckily, can be found 50% of the time in a hole in the ground instead of searching their other known habitat. Separating the two requires maceration and light centrifuge. D. craniorecta, being very dense, will sink to the bottom of any culture medium.
I hope this helps, Goey.
God bless!
Dr Zixar
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
You?re right in pointing out my backlog of responses, in which your Youngs comment resides. I?ll get to it soon. There?s a lot going on, so sit tight. Or hang loose, whatever pleases you. I?m way behind on my homework. Maybe tonight. In the meantime I?m taking care of a Few easy, fast posts before heading off to work.
Without thoroughly going into it, there may have been lots of ?Young?s back when this was written.
Plus it wasn?t written, but in tape form when sold in the bookstore to us, so it wasn?t up to that high standard of ?it is written.? Going back to Dr?s ?Masters of the Word? article and accompanying editorial ?How the word works? (both posted) the standard of what God made available through the Way ministry (not just Dr?s ministry but the whole team, with JC head) was stated this way "book and magazine form."
Plus, what Dr may have written for the radio broadcast may have been misspoken into the tape, from which the posted transcript originates.
Plus, this ?Love Way? is not on the mastery list from Dr?s Last/Lost Teaching. This ?Love Way? is very useful, but I wouldn?t drop dead (nor drop my message) if there was a genuine mistake in it. Then again, I wouldn?t be surprised if there?s an error in your analysis too.
If there?s more to this, I may get time for it when I go after my backlog. Remember how long sirguessalot waited for an answer. Two pages I think.
******
As for you hypothetical question about sexual abuse within a family, I?d say the same thing I said above, silence as much as possible.
Sure, there would be a small circle of people who truly need to know about hurtful events, and discuss them for the proper course of action for THAT PARTICULAR situation (please don?t ask me for formulae or algorithms).
Sure, that small circle may include the police for some cases, after facts are carefully discerned. It would depend on how overt a discovery it was. Sometimes these things start out with a mere suspicion, not a simple caught-in-the-act situation. Plus people really do lie about these kinds of things. It?s standard operating procedure for police to consider this possibility. Many such lies are discovered every year. There?s one reported in Genesis, involving Joseph. I know it?s not about children, just the ease with which lies enter these situations. GREAT ease! I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. ________I?m..saying..lies..are..common..in..many..sex..situations.__________ This MUST be taken into account. It cannot be ignored no matter how politically incorrect it is. Not only lies, but even false memories, implanted by hypnotic psychologists are being observed lately.
In most cases, I?d say the media should NOT be involved. (The www is a medium.) It would have to be a very strange situation before silence would do more damage than publicity would. All shades of gray in between is too much for me to talk about now in a short response like this.
In Dr?s case, it seems that during his life, God did cover for him, in that it was some pretty inept (5-senses wise) individuals who supposedly did the master covering for him on the natural level. How did they succeed so perfectly? God always kept Dr ten steps away from these (exaggerated?) scandals because of Dr?s believing to do the job that God called him to, bringing forth His Word. It was not for his believing in the area of BECOMING the man he knew to be from these revelations he got. Dr?s believing was shot in that area of totally applying it to himself, and he said so on tape, in print, and in stone, literally. (?I wish I were the man I know to be.?) Dr was not called to be our savior, not called to be the one who we want to become. That?s Jesus Christ?s job, to be our emulation target, and Dr says so bigtime in these teachings, Love Way, and Christ Formed In You.
It?s not too late for us to come back to PFAL and do our best to master it, and learn these things about forming Christ within, and then growing up on the pure milk of the Word into becoming the Jesus Christ men and women we were called to be by our Father God.
.
.
.
.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 29, 2003 at 14:11.]
so Mike, would "believing to do the job" include believing to find out God's will and act in harmony and alignment with it???
Is there some other instruction to elders besides 1 Timothy 3?? Do you get to ignore all that when you are the "first apostle since the first century"?? Mike, personality traits, quirks and petty foibles are one thing--rampant, unrepentant sin is quite another--would you not agree???
You seek to turn aside and minimize the plain, bald truth about Victor Paul--what does God the Father or His only begotten Son have to say about that????
Mike--ANSWER THE QUESTION, DAMN IT!!! Shall we(you, I, Victor Paul, any Christian believer) continue in sin that grace may abound???
I think you know the reply God gave to the apostle Paul........
As of this posting, this thread has a reported 6,592 views. Since the copyrighted work appeared on 2 of the current 13 pages of replies, that means that on average, Mike has distributed 1,014 copies of this work. If memory serves, the average cost for a legal copy of a TWI teaching tape was $4.00, giving an aggregate value of this infringement of $4,056.00.
Call the Feds.
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
I had a feeling it would be hard to get out the door this afternoon.
.
.
.
alfakat,
I was NEVER in a position to apply I Tim 3 to Dr or any of the upper leadership. You can?t blame me for not acting rightly in a situation I never was in. I haven?t hardly even talked to anyone who was. I is igernant on dat.
However, I did try my best to apply I Tim 3 to my own life and to situations in my sphere of awareness and influence. I failed at times. How did you do at that? Just wondering.
You wrote: ?You seek to turn aside and minimize the plain, bald truth about Victor Paul...?
No, I seek to put on a much lower surety level and response level, the collectively reported plain bald facts. That?s FACTS, not truths. Facts that happened 20 years ago. If I had been there, it?d be different. I?d have to then apply different principles then than what I have to apply now.
To any situation that I personally face now, I should not continue in sin that grace may abound.
What I have to say about specific past events about ?continuing in sin...,? about which I have no real knowledge of, is not worth saying.
For my life, to the best of MY ability (and only God knows what that is) I agree with Paul. And I wont be brought under the power of any... who want to condemn me on this.
No, dumbass, lawyers live for minutiae like that. It's what pays for their BMWs. While I personally don't give the tiniest of damns if you spend the next three years in prison, you've also made Pawtucket an accessory by posting material on his website for which TWI still holds the legal copyrights.
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
No, dumbass, you aren't. You are continuing to push your perverted interpretation of VPW's works, regardless of what it might do to the site, its admin, or its patrons. You're only trying to wrap your odious nonsense in religious trappings so it might appear halfway-legitimate. You've crossed the line so far back you're approaching it again from the other side of the globe.
Take your self-righteous spewage elsewhere.
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
You infringed on a copyright by posting most of this teaching without permission. TWI is a business, and you prevent them from selling this tape by giving it away. It matters not that you did it for some higher cause. It matters not if VPW stole from Kenyon for some higher, "God-breathed" cause. It still breaks the laws of this country. I hope the risk is worth it to you.
You also said:
quote: In Dr?s case, it seems that during his life, God did cover for him, in that it was some pretty inept (5-senses wise) individuals who supposedly did the master covering for him on the natural level. How did they succeed so perfectly?
I remember hearing that "God covers" a lot during my TWI years, because I doubted its veracity even then. God didn't protect Mr. Wierwille so He could get the "Word that hasn't been known since the first century" out. Wierwille and his cronies protected him, discrediting everyone who spoke out, and isolating them from each other by M&A so they couldn't talk to each other. Wierwille also developed a whole network of yes-men to march in lockstep with anything he said, and shamed those who refused to kiss his tush. Had the Internet been around then (as it is now with Martindale), VPW wouldn't have stood a chance.
You said:
quote: God always kept Dr ten steps away from these (exaggerated?) scandals because of Dr?s believing to do the job that God called him to, bringing forth His Word.
Exaggerated??? How many would it take for you to be appalled? How many did it take for God?
You assertion that God would forget His own requirement for leadership (thanks alfakat) in order to get His Word into print just makes me ill. Keeping quiet was better than putting a stop to it? (Thanks Pirate!) If there was a god behind VPW not being brought to justice in his lifetime, it was the wrong one.
Wait for an answer? Don't be silly. Why would I consider waiting for any kind of legitimate or lucid answer from you? You have already proven that to be an effort in futility.
Until I get tired of it, I'll just continue to address the absurdity of what you post here and point out a few of more ridiculous and obvious flaws when I see them.
But don't kid yourself Mike - I am not waiting for an answer - at least not an understandable or cogent one. But then maybe you could surprise me.
I noticed a calmer you when the announcement was made here on GS a few months ago that a poster received a CD in the mail with a bunch of Dr's books on it. Your self copyrighteous attitude was no where near as hot as it is now.
I also noticed a helpful you when some poster a week or so ago (page 11 of this thread), asked where such a CD could be found, and you suggested: ?The core books (PFAL, RHST) the five collateral books, JCNG, ADAN, and the two Jesus Christ Books (JCOP, JCPS) have been bootlegged into electronic PDF files, even down to the typesetting. Ask around on the more PFAL-friendly ex-Way websites if you really want them. I don't know who produced them, and I don't know anyone who distributes them now, but they are out there.?
No. There's LOTS of other ways it's been confirmed! To us OLGs, that is.
I can see non-OLGs saying that there's little to none substantiation of the 1942 promise, other than Dr and his helpers saying it was so, that God contacted him. It would be a miracle to me if a non-OLG really took up with what I'm saying. Hey! Miracles do happen! But I'm not holding my breath waiting for one here.
I had tons of reasons to be very confident with PFAL all through the 70's and 80's, while NOT taking Dr's word for anything. One by one, item by item, Dr proved himself to me as having the cutting edge answers. In those days I NEVER took Dr's word for anything UNTIL I had checked it out to the best of my ability. I checked it out enough to believe God really did contact him and work on a secret project with him. I believe they succeeded.
No, there?s lots of ways I see the reality of the 1942 promise. I got lots answered and saw God?s hand in it a lot in the 70?s, even though I didn?t really master it then. I partially turned the crank and it produced abundantly. And since none of us OLGs really, spiritually mastered it the first time, coming back to PFAL and doing it right this time will produce even STILL more proofs, more than abundant proofs.
*****
One of these days, on this thread?s topic, we?ll have to get into the difference between 5-senses understanding and spiritual understanding. My attitude used to be that the difference was bs. I?m surprised no one?s called me on this, with the same attitude. Maybe sex and copyrights have dulled the ability of some to spot the more subtle things, like the difference between 5-senses understanding and spiritual understanding. Someday we?ll have to get into that very interesting difference.
Those books were not published to this site, nor do I have any other evidence that they have been published anywhere else on the internet. If they are in the hands of private collectors, it's their choice to make them public and accept the consequences. The face value of those works is only about $150, below the $1000 threshold of the copyright law.
However, you chose to publish, not merely copy, publish, copyrighted material without holding the legal right to do so, on a public site. This isn't a case of two individuals swapping files, this is a public distribution of copyrighted material. The fair use defense does not apply since you published substantially the entire works in question, not just excerpts.
If you had done that with some of L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology works, you'd have already been served with the lawsuit. As I said before, though, you haven't just screwed yourself, you've screwed Pawtucket, too, unless one of you deletes those posts.
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
You see the problem as, ?we were not diligent in putting on the WHOLE armor of God, but we did go into battle with an adversary who DID put on all his armor.?
I see the problem as VP not being able to control his lust for young women, among other lusts he had. Rather than humbling himself before God and resisting the devil, remaining strong in the lord and the power of His might VP rationalized his lust with the separation of flesh and spirit. He covered his sin through the renewed mind teaching and his bogus definition of the love of God. The result was a cloak of silence. This cloak allowed VP to continue in the hurtful manner he had become hardened to. He effectively made everyone who brought his actions to light responsible for the darkness it exposed by saying they were not walking in love.
Really, Mike. Thousands were disobedient to what they were told by VP and that?s why VP's definition of the love of God hurt so many? It didn?t have anything to do with VP using the Word of God deceitfully and teaching trash?
What hurt so many was not paying close attention to God's Word. We didn't arm ourselves sufficiently. We didn't go to GOD sufficiently. Dr wasn't responsible for the massive breakdowns in trust and communication that occurred on all remote field locations starting slowly the day after he stepped down as president, linearly increased until a year after his death, after which have sporadically broken out all over in exponential proportions.
Many people, especially in the Corps, developed an attraction for the man VPW, or something about him. The attraction to God?s Word and the fine details of what we were taught were often last on the list of many who were more socially minded in their Corps activities.
So, Jesse Joe, in fine tuning what you said to make it accurate I?ll say this.
It?s NOT so much disobedience to advanced teachings like The Love Way and Christ Formed In You that messed things in general. It was more an IGNORANCE of the fine details of the KJV Bible, and what God had taught Dr and Dr taught us in PFAL. I?m talking about the everyday people on the field, the thousands and tens of thousands. I lived at HQ, and I?m specifically NOT talking about HQ here. I?m talking the majority. It was ignorance of love that soured the collective effort, that had worked so well ten years earlier. People were ignorant because their focus was the social scene with their peers and inappropriate Dr worship.
Now the disobedience comes in where we were specifically told to master PFAL (?79 Advanced Class, Sound OUt?84, and Last/Lost Teaching) but we blew it off.
We blew off the simple easy instructions to master.
We never sufficiently heard enough of the detailed, deep revelation placed in the PFAL books to rise up, up to the spiritual realm from the physical. That?s where we?d have been protected from this wrath that hit us all. We ALL got hurt in one way or another, some spectacularly, due to a breakdown in the grad COMMUNITY BELIEVING.
Notice the rotten community believing that Joseph, son of Israel suffered unjustly in. His believing was never thought ill of in God?s Word. His brothers community believing was rotten, and he was unjustly thrown in a prison. God released Joseph form his prison. Again, Joseph is unjustly hit, and again God delivered him AND his tormentors.
We disobeyed the simple easy instructions to master.
We were relatively ignorant of the advanced armor Dr taught us.
We engaged in a serious war with the adversary, and we tried to wing it.
Just like Eve we all got creamed.
This great defeat was widespread, in all places remote for HQ and root locations. This grand defeat started gradually much earlier, but by 1986, one year after Dr died, it was way out of control and passed the point of no return. It had nothing to do with Dr, and everything to do with a lack of the pure Word in our minds.
It?ll never be a return to old past hurts that heals the hurts. I see a community that can return to this Word and believe it, and see the progressively complete deliverance God has provided us in those books. VP didn?t write the books! The books are bigger than VPW, bigger than the entire team who worked with Dr, the books are bigger than we ever guessed, because they are of God.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
JesseJoe
The problem, Mike, is it didn?t stop there. VP operated under a cloak of silence, wrongly called, the love of God. He continued to steal, kill and destroy God?s Word in people?s hearts throughout his life. Where was the love in that?
If his definition of the renewed mind was so right, why were so many hurt in the process?
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JesseJoe
Let me ask another question:
If VP's definition of the love of God was so right, why did believing it hurt so many people?
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Mike
Jesse Joe,
You asked a very interesting question: ?If VP's definition of the love of God was so right, why did believing it hurt so many people??
Well first of all, according to many here, it wasn?t actually VP?s definition but who's ever he lifted it from. I say it was God, ultimately, that he got it from. And this applies to more than just the definition of love.
BUT, it doesn?t answer your question, either. That?s why it?s an interesting one.
In answering it, however, you must realize that I?m going to so from MY perspective, not yours.
There are several components, two big ones. To keep this short (I got work to go to) I?ll stick with only the two.
*****
The first is that we never REALLY believed the doctrine Dr was teaching us. We believed some of for a while, but there was a lot of mental assent, plus a lot of winging it and faking it. A few did do some 5-senses mastery of the material, in the earlier years, but drifted away before being able to begin spiritual mastery.
SO THIS is one of the big reasons people got hurt, the large masses. We were not very diligent to get all of what Dr taught. Our efficiency in applying our partial knowledge was low.
This ?Love Way? teaching and this whole thread indicates this. Starting in 1987 there was a big cry amongst rebel grads (mostly CES now) that Dr never taught us about the lordship of Jesus Christ and our proper relationship with him. This outcry was correct in protesting the absence on JC in the TVT, which by that time had developed at that time to a real monster. However, that outcry was totally false in that Dr DID teach it, but we ignored it. The ?Christ Formed..? teachings and the formed Christ (as opposed to the created Christ) were just never a part of TVT. No one talked about it.
We were into the TVT more than what Dr taught.
*****
The other major reason is that what Dr WAS teaching (print and tape) to us was the first MAJOR threat to the adversary in 2000 years. Because it was so right on, the adversary pulled out all the stops to suppress it.
*****
So, putting the two major reasons together, we were not diligent in putting on the WHOLE armor of God, but we did go into battle with an adversary who DID put on all his armor. CREAMO! We got creamed as a result.
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Goey
Mike,
You posted:
Mike, I am not interested in saving you time. You are posting this stuff, so it is your responsibility to explain it. This is another dodge that does not adequately address the point of my post - that is Wierwille's error or lie about Young's "translation" and the self serving hipocracy of Wierwille's interpretation of 1 Cor 13:7.
So Mike, would it then be "real good wisdom" for a family to be silent about sex abuse within itself - if dad is abusing the children - to keep the peace ? Or if the neighbors found out that the the man next door was abusing his children - that they should shut up about it because it might disturb the "family peace" next door? Or does this only apply to your hero Wierwille?
Goey
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Zixar
Goey: Mike has asked me to explain the following to you: He is what is known in research circles as a dumbass. I'll spare you the empirical formula and stoichiometric data, but simply put, his particular taxonomic sub-species is Dumbass craniorecta invertalis, more commonly known in the vernacular as the Western ....headed Dumbass.
The primary distinguishing characteristics of D. craniorecta are:
1) Mental disjunction with reality.
2) Solipsistic egocentrism.
3) Occasional bouts of paranoid mania.
4) Social retardation.
D. craniorecta can frequently be confused with D. ignoramus except that D. ignoramus may be successfully expunged with the proper application of anti-idiocy agents. D. craniorecta is incurably pernicious.
D. craniorecta can sometimes be found cohabiting with D. anofossalus ambigua who, luckily, can be found 50% of the time in a hole in the ground instead of searching their other known habitat. Separating the two requires maceration and light centrifuge. D. craniorecta, being very dense, will sink to the bottom of any culture medium.
I hope this helps, Goey.
God bless!
Dr Zixar
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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karmicdebt
ZIXAR. One of the only good reasons to visit the Mike threads....
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Mike
Zixar,
Thanks! I guess I was asking for that.
*******
Goey,
You?re right in pointing out my backlog of responses, in which your Youngs comment resides. I?ll get to it soon. There?s a lot going on, so sit tight. Or hang loose, whatever pleases you. I?m way behind on my homework. Maybe tonight. In the meantime I?m taking care of a Few easy, fast posts before heading off to work.
Without thoroughly going into it, there may have been lots of ?Young?s back when this was written.
Plus it wasn?t written, but in tape form when sold in the bookstore to us, so it wasn?t up to that high standard of ?it is written.? Going back to Dr?s ?Masters of the Word? article and accompanying editorial ?How the word works? (both posted) the standard of what God made available through the Way ministry (not just Dr?s ministry but the whole team, with JC head) was stated this way "book and magazine form."
Plus, what Dr may have written for the radio broadcast may have been misspoken into the tape, from which the posted transcript originates.
Plus, this ?Love Way? is not on the mastery list from Dr?s Last/Lost Teaching. This ?Love Way? is very useful, but I wouldn?t drop dead (nor drop my message) if there was a genuine mistake in it. Then again, I wouldn?t be surprised if there?s an error in your analysis too.
If there?s more to this, I may get time for it when I go after my backlog. Remember how long sirguessalot waited for an answer. Two pages I think.
******
As for you hypothetical question about sexual abuse within a family, I?d say the same thing I said above, silence as much as possible.
Sure, there would be a small circle of people who truly need to know about hurtful events, and discuss them for the proper course of action for THAT PARTICULAR situation (please don?t ask me for formulae or algorithms).
Sure, that small circle may include the police for some cases, after facts are carefully discerned. It would depend on how overt a discovery it was. Sometimes these things start out with a mere suspicion, not a simple caught-in-the-act situation. Plus people really do lie about these kinds of things. It?s standard operating procedure for police to consider this possibility. Many such lies are discovered every year. There?s one reported in Genesis, involving Joseph. I know it?s not about children, just the ease with which lies enter these situations. GREAT ease! I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. --- I?m NOT saying all reports are lies. ________I?m..saying..lies..are..common..in..many..sex..situations.__________ This MUST be taken into account. It cannot be ignored no matter how politically incorrect it is. Not only lies, but even false memories, implanted by hypnotic psychologists are being observed lately.
In most cases, I?d say the media should NOT be involved. (The www is a medium.) It would have to be a very strange situation before silence would do more damage than publicity would. All shades of gray in between is too much for me to talk about now in a short response like this.
In Dr?s case, it seems that during his life, God did cover for him, in that it was some pretty inept (5-senses wise) individuals who supposedly did the master covering for him on the natural level. How did they succeed so perfectly? God always kept Dr ten steps away from these (exaggerated?) scandals because of Dr?s believing to do the job that God called him to, bringing forth His Word. It was not for his believing in the area of BECOMING the man he knew to be from these revelations he got. Dr?s believing was shot in that area of totally applying it to himself, and he said so on tape, in print, and in stone, literally. (?I wish I were the man I know to be.?) Dr was not called to be our savior, not called to be the one who we want to become. That?s Jesus Christ?s job, to be our emulation target, and Dr says so bigtime in these teachings, Love Way, and Christ Formed In You.
It?s not too late for us to come back to PFAL and do our best to master it, and learn these things about forming Christ within, and then growing up on the pure milk of the Word into becoming the Jesus Christ men and women we were called to be by our Father God.
.
.
.
.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 29, 2003 at 14:11.]
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Pirate1974
Holy ....!!!
GOD covered up for VPs sexual abuse???
Keeping quiet is better than putting a stop to it???
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt before, but if you really believe that you are a certifiable lunatic.
Take your post and shove it.
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Mike
Pirate, the sex scandals didn't hit the front pages until 1986 or '87. At least one or two years after Dr died.
And I didn't say anything specific regarding how I'd have handled ANY specific situation.
You're jumping to concussions.
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alfakat
so Mike, would "believing to do the job" include believing to find out God's will and act in harmony and alignment with it???
Is there some other instruction to elders besides 1 Timothy 3?? Do you get to ignore all that when you are the "first apostle since the first century"?? Mike, personality traits, quirks and petty foibles are one thing--rampant, unrepentant sin is quite another--would you not agree???
You seek to turn aside and minimize the plain, bald truth about Victor Paul--what does God the Father or His only begotten Son have to say about that????
Mike--ANSWER THE QUESTION, DAMN IT!!! Shall we(you, I, Victor Paul, any Christian believer) continue in sin that grace may abound???
I think you know the reply God gave to the apostle Paul........
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Zixar
Under USC Title 17, Chapter 5, Section 506(a)(2), distributing 1 or more copies of 1 or more copyrighted works with a total aggregate value of $1,000 or more, even if no money changed hands, is classified as criminal distribution, and is subject to a penalty under USC Title 18 Part I, Chapter 113, Section 2319© of up to 3 years in prison, 6 if it's a second or subsequent offense.
As of this posting, this thread has a reported 6,592 views. Since the copyrighted work appeared on 2 of the current 13 pages of replies, that means that on average, Mike has distributed 1,014 copies of this work. If memory serves, the average cost for a legal copy of a TWI teaching tape was $4.00, giving an aggregate value of this infringement of $4,056.00.
Call the Feds.
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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Mike
I had a feeling it would be hard to get out the door this afternoon.
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.
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alfakat,
I was NEVER in a position to apply I Tim 3 to Dr or any of the upper leadership. You can?t blame me for not acting rightly in a situation I never was in. I haven?t hardly even talked to anyone who was. I is igernant on dat.
However, I did try my best to apply I Tim 3 to my own life and to situations in my sphere of awareness and influence. I failed at times. How did you do at that? Just wondering.
You wrote: ?You seek to turn aside and minimize the plain, bald truth about Victor Paul...?
No, I seek to put on a much lower surety level and response level, the collectively reported plain bald facts. That?s FACTS, not truths. Facts that happened 20 years ago. If I had been there, it?d be different. I?d have to then apply different principles then than what I have to apply now.
To any situation that I personally face now, I should not continue in sin that grace may abound.
What I have to say about specific past events about ?continuing in sin...,? about which I have no real knowledge of, is not worth saying.
For my life, to the best of MY ability (and only God knows what that is) I agree with Paul. And I wont be brought under the power of any... who want to condemn me on this.
**************************************************
Zixar,
I think you?re insulting the intelligence of the WAYGB and the legal department of TWI.
.
.
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Zixar
No, dumbass, lawyers live for minutiae like that. It's what pays for their BMWs. While I personally don't give the tiniest of damns if you spend the next three years in prison, you've also made Pawtucket an accessory by posting material on his website for which TWI still holds the legal copyrights.
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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Mike
Zixar,
Look, I know you hate me. I know you hate what you think is my religion. So go start another thread on this passion you have against me!
I'm trying to talk about our relationship with Jesus Christ.
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Zixar
No, dumbass, you aren't. You are continuing to push your perverted interpretation of VPW's works, regardless of what it might do to the site, its admin, or its patrons. You're only trying to wrap your odious nonsense in religious trappings so it might appear halfway-legitimate. You've crossed the line so far back you're approaching it again from the other side of the globe.
Take your self-righteous spewage elsewhere.
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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shazdancer
Mike,
You infringed on a copyright by posting most of this teaching without permission. TWI is a business, and you prevent them from selling this tape by giving it away. It matters not that you did it for some higher cause. It matters not if VPW stole from Kenyon for some higher, "God-breathed" cause. It still breaks the laws of this country. I hope the risk is worth it to you.
You also said:
I remember hearing that "God covers" a lot during my TWI years, because I doubted its veracity even then. God didn't protect Mr. Wierwille so He could get the "Word that hasn't been known since the first century" out. Wierwille and his cronies protected him, discrediting everyone who spoke out, and isolating them from each other by M&A so they couldn't talk to each other. Wierwille also developed a whole network of yes-men to march in lockstep with anything he said, and shamed those who refused to kiss his tush. Had the Internet been around then (as it is now with Martindale), VPW wouldn't have stood a chance.
You said:
Exaggerated??? How many would it take for you to be appalled? How many did it take for God?You assertion that God would forget His own requirement for leadership (thanks alfakat) in order to get His Word into print just makes me ill. Keeping quiet was better than putting a stop to it? (Thanks Pirate!) If there was a god behind VPW not being brought to justice in his lifetime, it was the wrong one.
shaz
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Goey
Mike,
Wait for an answer? Don't be silly. Why would I consider waiting for any kind of legitimate or lucid answer from you? You have already proven that to be an effort in futility.
Until I get tired of it, I'll just continue to address the absurdity of what you post here and point out a few of more ridiculous and obvious flaws when I see them.
But don't kid yourself Mike - I am not waiting for an answer - at least not an understandable or cogent one. But then maybe you could surprise me.
Goey
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Zixar
There's also another $2,500 or so worth of infringement on the first page of the "Lost Teaching" thread... (11 pages, 6000+views)
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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Mike
Zixar,
I noticed a calmer you when the announcement was made here on GS a few months ago that a poster received a CD in the mail with a bunch of Dr's books on it. Your self copyrighteous attitude was no where near as hot as it is now.
I also noticed a helpful you when some poster a week or so ago (page 11 of this thread), asked where such a CD could be found, and you suggested: ?The core books (PFAL, RHST) the five collateral books, JCNG, ADAN, and the two Jesus Christ Books (JCOP, JCPS) have been bootlegged into electronic PDF files, even down to the typesetting. Ask around on the more PFAL-friendly ex-Way websites if you really want them. I don't know who produced them, and I don't know anyone who distributes them now, but they are out there.?
Why this sudden change in attitude?
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Oakspear
I am amazed that Wierwille is still being quoted and referred to as if he is an unimpeachable and self-evident authority!
It's so because Wierwille said it was so.
Why believe Wierwille? Because God made a promise to him.
How do we know that God made this promise?
Because Wierwille said so.
There's nothing wrong with what Wierwille taught, results were virtually non-existant because we didn't believe Wierwille!
The abuses Wierwille either perpetrated or inspired are not important because he "taught us the Word".
How do we know it was "The Word"?
Because Wierwille said so.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Mike
No. There's LOTS of other ways it's been confirmed! To us OLGs, that is.
I can see non-OLGs saying that there's little to none substantiation of the 1942 promise, other than Dr and his helpers saying it was so, that God contacted him. It would be a miracle to me if a non-OLG really took up with what I'm saying. Hey! Miracles do happen! But I'm not holding my breath waiting for one here.
I had tons of reasons to be very confident with PFAL all through the 70's and 80's, while NOT taking Dr's word for anything. One by one, item by item, Dr proved himself to me as having the cutting edge answers. In those days I NEVER took Dr's word for anything UNTIL I had checked it out to the best of my ability. I checked it out enough to believe God really did contact him and work on a secret project with him. I believe they succeeded.
No, there?s lots of ways I see the reality of the 1942 promise. I got lots answered and saw God?s hand in it a lot in the 70?s, even though I didn?t really master it then. I partially turned the crank and it produced abundantly. And since none of us OLGs really, spiritually mastered it the first time, coming back to PFAL and doing it right this time will produce even STILL more proofs, more than abundant proofs.
*****
One of these days, on this thread?s topic, we?ll have to get into the difference between 5-senses understanding and spiritual understanding. My attitude used to be that the difference was bs. I?m surprised no one?s called me on this, with the same attitude. Maybe sex and copyrights have dulled the ability of some to spot the more subtle things, like the difference between 5-senses understanding and spiritual understanding. Someday we?ll have to get into that very interesting difference.
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Zixar
Newsflash, dumbass.
Those books were not published to this site, nor do I have any other evidence that they have been published anywhere else on the internet. If they are in the hands of private collectors, it's their choice to make them public and accept the consequences. The face value of those works is only about $150, below the $1000 threshold of the copyright law.
However, you chose to publish, not merely copy, publish, copyrighted material without holding the legal right to do so, on a public site. This isn't a case of two individuals swapping files, this is a public distribution of copyrighted material. The fair use defense does not apply since you published substantially the entire works in question, not just excerpts.
If you had done that with some of L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology works, you'd have already been served with the lawsuit. As I said before, though, you haven't just screwed yourself, you've screwed Pawtucket, too, unless one of you deletes those posts.
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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JesseJoe
You see the problem as, ?we were not diligent in putting on the WHOLE armor of God, but we did go into battle with an adversary who DID put on all his armor.?
I see the problem as VP not being able to control his lust for young women, among other lusts he had. Rather than humbling himself before God and resisting the devil, remaining strong in the lord and the power of His might VP rationalized his lust with the separation of flesh and spirit. He covered his sin through the renewed mind teaching and his bogus definition of the love of God. The result was a cloak of silence. This cloak allowed VP to continue in the hurtful manner he had become hardened to. He effectively made everyone who brought his actions to light responsible for the darkness it exposed by saying they were not walking in love.
Really, Mike. Thousands were disobedient to what they were told by VP and that?s why VP's definition of the love of God hurt so many? It didn?t have anything to do with VP using the Word of God deceitfully and teaching trash?
Jesse
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Mike
Jesse Joe,
What hurt so many was not paying close attention to God's Word. We didn't arm ourselves sufficiently. We didn't go to GOD sufficiently. Dr wasn't responsible for the massive breakdowns in trust and communication that occurred on all remote field locations starting slowly the day after he stepped down as president, linearly increased until a year after his death, after which have sporadically broken out all over in exponential proportions.
Many people, especially in the Corps, developed an attraction for the man VPW, or something about him. The attraction to God?s Word and the fine details of what we were taught were often last on the list of many who were more socially minded in their Corps activities.
So, Jesse Joe, in fine tuning what you said to make it accurate I?ll say this.
It?s NOT so much disobedience to advanced teachings like The Love Way and Christ Formed In You that messed things in general. It was more an IGNORANCE of the fine details of the KJV Bible, and what God had taught Dr and Dr taught us in PFAL. I?m talking about the everyday people on the field, the thousands and tens of thousands. I lived at HQ, and I?m specifically NOT talking about HQ here. I?m talking the majority. It was ignorance of love that soured the collective effort, that had worked so well ten years earlier. People were ignorant because their focus was the social scene with their peers and inappropriate Dr worship.
Now the disobedience comes in where we were specifically told to master PFAL (?79 Advanced Class, Sound OUt?84, and Last/Lost Teaching) but we blew it off.
We blew off the simple easy instructions to master.
We never sufficiently heard enough of the detailed, deep revelation placed in the PFAL books to rise up, up to the spiritual realm from the physical. That?s where we?d have been protected from this wrath that hit us all. We ALL got hurt in one way or another, some spectacularly, due to a breakdown in the grad COMMUNITY BELIEVING.
Notice the rotten community believing that Joseph, son of Israel suffered unjustly in. His believing was never thought ill of in God?s Word. His brothers community believing was rotten, and he was unjustly thrown in a prison. God released Joseph form his prison. Again, Joseph is unjustly hit, and again God delivered him AND his tormentors.
We disobeyed the simple easy instructions to master.
We were relatively ignorant of the advanced armor Dr taught us.
We engaged in a serious war with the adversary, and we tried to wing it.
Just like Eve we all got creamed.
This great defeat was widespread, in all places remote for HQ and root locations. This grand defeat started gradually much earlier, but by 1986, one year after Dr died, it was way out of control and passed the point of no return. It had nothing to do with Dr, and everything to do with a lack of the pure Word in our minds.
It?ll never be a return to old past hurts that heals the hurts. I see a community that can return to this Word and believe it, and see the progressively complete deliverance God has provided us in those books. VP didn?t write the books! The books are bigger than VPW, bigger than the entire team who worked with Dr, the books are bigger than we ever guessed, because they are of God.
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