My notes on other references to the Nat/Spir dichotomy are maturing and I?ll be able to post soon.
Last night I was reviewing all the pages of this thread and I came across the first time (not the recent one) you had difficulty with that one page 24 in the Blue Book. It refreshed my memory as to what was bothering you, and I saw that at that time I didn?t seem to have an answer that would satisfy you. My stated policy when encountering AEs or kinks is NOT to abandon my PFAL respect and study, but to be on the lookout for more light. I?ve seen enough of these little problems melt away to justify this policy. Even on the short course of these threads we saw one such AE (timing of David?s heart designation) melt in the heat of the Word with no trouble at all.
It was with this in mind that I withheld direct consideration of your question in this second round. Like I said, I think it?s premature to consider it too deeply, until more data is on the table. My notes will be ready in a few days, so I just wanted to prepare you so that you can pour over ALL the places (at least that I can find in 5 years) to get a feel for your answer.
May I again caution you against premature judgement. These things deserve weeks and months and even years to ponder properly. I ran across the PFAL passage where Dr says sometimes it takes years to see something fit. It?s very instructive.
Here is PFAL page 224:
?Let me briefly point out one final key in understanding Biblical truth.
What course of action does a person follow when he cannot make sense
of a very difficult verse -- when the verse, the context and previous
usage are not satisfactory in giving him understanding?
?The difficult verse must be understood in the light of clear verses. There
may be one verse that stands out as difficult, while there are many verses
on the same subject which are clear. Modern man has magnified the
difficult one and forgotten the many clear ones. That is not honest. That is
not rightly dividing The Word. We must see that the one fits with the many,
not by squeezing it but by working it. Sometimes I have waited ten years to
fit one thorny verse with the rest of the accuracy of The Word. Time is not
important when studying a verse; the keys in The Word are. When we
rightly divide The Word as to whom it is written, we understand that the
one difficult verse must always fit in the light of the clear verses on the
Lets put this thread in one of those time boxes and wait ten years!
When we opene it in ten years. holy crap ! walaa the answers will appear!
maybe it is freaking magic!
good grief Mike does every thing that vpw did have to be incorporated in your own life and relationship with God?
You leave out chunks of Gods children you know huge chunks of those who have made paths for others to understand what God is and live a more fullfilling life. what about them?
I'm not leaving out anyone. I'm seeking to serve them AFTER I master PFAL.
That's the purpose of Power For Abundant Living, the power and abundance being all nine manifestations, seven of which are for SERVICE to others. The last/lost teaching of Dr?s was ?The Joy of Serving? and in it he tells us that in order to do SUPER service we have to SUPER master PFAL.
Mj, I?m only temporarily addressing a section of the grads, the OLGs who saw that at one time PFAL was good and from God but then something went wrong. I?m here to report that what went wrong was NOT the writings! Almost anything else can be seen as pooping out in one way or another, but the Word in ?BOOK AND MAGAZINE FORM? is pure.
That quote, ?book and magazine form is from ?How the Word Works? Dr?s Our Times editorial with main article ?Masters of the Word.? It?s posted here and easy to find in the summary above..
...book and magazine FORM
...Christ FORMED within
...hmmmm
Anyway, once a bunch of us OLGs come back, just a initial wave of a dozen or so, and pick up where we left off then things can REALLY start healing. THEN we can MUCH more effectively help others.
I see PFAL as our (OLGs) super school for service to others.
.
.
.
P.S. Non-OLGs are weclome too.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 09, 2003 at 16:03.]
Relax! There may be a limit to the number of threads the software can handle. Pawtucket may know. Dizzydog, you can pray that it crashes when it hits the limit. How's that?
In culling through my notes, some are not so much explanations of the Nat/Spir dichotomy (...I feel an acronym coming on... just a feeling..) as they are applications or illustrations.
Here is one such application/illustration. See if you can spot the buzz words that tip off the astute reader if it?s the Natural/Factual realm being emphasized or the Spiritual/Divine perspective.
This is from PFAL page 106:
?We have failed to walk in deliverance in this our day and
time because The Word is not real, it is not alive, it is not
dynamic to or in us. Consequently most people are spiritual
cripples, spiritual hitchhikers. They ride along on somebody
else?s beliefs. Many people today would much rather read
and study the literature of the hour than the literature of
eternity. Why? Because the word of man has had preeminence
over the wonderful Word of God. If what man says contradicts
what The Word says, they stick to man?s word rather than The
Word. If we want deliverance, if we want to tap the resources
for the more abundant life, then God?s Word demands that we
Then BY COMPARISON the English versions of the Bible that come to us by the traditional paths are mere opinions and words of men and limited to being approximations of God?s Word.
*******************************************
It?s when I focus on believing the above ?if? that I can say BY COMPARISON traditional Bibles are ?tattered remnants.?
Otherwise, I?m very thankful for these academic and scholarly reconstructions of most of the originals, with fairly decent translations into English. I depended greatly on such tools as the KJV in order to get to the place that I can now understand PFAL and the ?many words added? God chose to include in His re-format of His own Word.
I still like to open and read my KJV with hundreds of notes and memories on every NT page and tons of OT too. It was a totally necessary stepping stone to get to something more accurate, and anyone who?s been careful and meticulous in how they accumulate their wide margin notes know what I?m talking about. It?s a great old friend in a sense, and I?m reminded of in every page of PFAL.
This is the same from PFAL page 106 with my bracketed comments:
We have failed to walk in deliverance in THIS our day and time [NOW ? today... 2003... this is foretelling, prophesy] because The Word is not real [sPIRITUAL], it is not alive [sPIRITUAL], it is not dynamic [changing from 5-senses to SPIRITUAL] to or in us. [We don't have a spiritual understanding; at best it?s 5-senses and limited.]
Consequently most people are spiritual cripples, spiritual hitchhikers. They ride along on somebody else?s beliefs. Many people today would much rather read and study the literature of the hour [latest splinter teacher or maybe-grad on TV] than the literature of eternity [sPIRITUAL]. Why? Because the word of man [traditional religion and traditional texts] has had preeminence over the wonderful Word of God [this Word that He gave us in PFAL].
If what man [scholars, researchers, theologians, 5-senses investigators] says contradicts what The Word [PFAL revelation] says, they stick to man?s word rather than The Word.
If we want deliverance, if we want to tap the resources for the more abundant [sPIRITUAL] life, then God?s Word demands that we study and live by this [this ...as in ?THIS PFAL book you?re reading now...?] matchless Word.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 09, 2003 at 16:58.]
I just want to repost my Mike on List, starting with my favorite. Mike, you are making it a point to post your comments on Jesus Christ. Interesting. I don?t recall any of the below quotes in your posts. But I was just scanning your writings.
seaspray, I would love to get your take on the first one.
Jesse
Mike on the spirit of lust (posted April 14, 2003 16:37):
Yes. That one does affect the mind.
But you know how quickly a man can reset his mind after sexual release. This is one of the big ways men differ from women.
We were taught that devils can be run off with sommething as simple as an aspirin or some music.
After sexual release a man is pretty immune to that spirit for almost a whole day. ...sometimes many days.
Mike on why he posts at GreaseSpot (posted March 30, 2003 14:00):
Most of what I've been trying to do here at GSC is report new data, things I?ve found in the record that I?ve perceived to be hidden from sight, or not present in our collective memory, or not part of the common discussions between us older grads of PFAL.
Mike on the purpose of GreaseSpot (posted March 31, 2003 19:20):
If we can see more exactly what went wrong, we can more exactly fix it.
Isn't that the deeper purpose of what this place is all about?
Mike on PFAL
Just like Psalm 103 has the potential to impart to us the hidden, deeper spiritual understanding, so do the PFAL writings. God arraigned it that way to help us go farther than believers have been able to go since the first century.
Mike on The Problem (posted April 01, 2003 00:17):
Our egos hit this stumbling block in obeying Dr?s oft issued instructions to master the material. Dr told us to master PFAL, to get into it again at the deeper, spiritual level, but we thought our 5-senses understanding of the material was sufficient.
Mike on most of us (posted April 02, 2003 10:11)
For you and other dumbdowners I?ll spell out my reasons for this thread.
Mike on VP?s vocabulary (posted April 02, 2003 10:11)
As we return to PFAL, knowing that certain words in Dr?s vocabulary pertain exclusively to the spiritual side and certain others to the physical, THEN our reading will progress faster and more accurately.
Mike on defining ?leader? (posted April 02, 2003 11:18)
I am defining ?leader? here as just about anyone with some intelligence who went farther than merely taking the class. In MY use of leader, IN THIS CONTEXT, I mean any twig leader on up (or is it down?) plus any Corps or WOWs. It could also mean any one that served, or was in a position to help and guide.
Mike on responsibility (posted April 02, 2003 11:18)
Because I do not subscribe to the one villain theory, I see primary responsibility for the ministry meltdown (one year after Dr?s death) as being due to the collective disobedience of older leader grads, and YES, I DO INCLUDE MYSELF HERE! I think we (older leader grads) all contributed to the problems
Mike on his vision for the future (posted April 02, 2003 11:18):
? the GOOD NEWS is that we older leader grads can come back to PFAL, master it as we were so often instructed to do by Dr, and then resume the ?good old days? only in better form, never to be tricked out of it again.
Mike on the Gospels vs. the Epistles (April 04, 2003 00:07):
We were right in respecting the epistles of Paul as greater words.
Mike on God?s choice of messenger (posted April 05, 2003 19:15):
I agree that things went wrong in lots of ways. I'm just happy to report that we can come back to the PFAL books, with an attitude of thankfulness to God that He slipped this into our lap by way of a MOST unexpected kind of messenger. Even the devil didn't guess this could happen.
Mike on God?s strategy (posted April 05, 2003 19:15):
God uses strategy to get things done right under the devil's nose. The mystery is only one such example. The selection of Paul was a stunning move God pulled on the devil. So was VPW. We all got stunned in the process, but God gave us special shields and the stun was set for "mild" in our vicinity.
Mike on our relationship with Jesus (posted April 06, 2003 00:52):
The relationship we have with Jesus is one of taking his place.
Mike on knowing Jesus (posted April 06, 2003 00:52):
We get to know him the way an actor gets to know the character they play. The actor becomes the role they portray, but only for the duration of the play. We get to do it for keeps.
Mike on dodging (posted April 10, 2003 01:49)
Besides, I only dodge certain ISSUES, not people.
Mike on speaking to Jesus (posted April 10, 2003 04:16)
The Bible does have a few people talking to Jesus post Pentecost, but it seems like those things happened when people were contacted.
Mike on Older Leader Grads (posted April 10, 2003 04:16)
Dr often and urge book mastery to close the gap between the TVT and the written materials, but as the years Went by, us OLGs felt more and more spiritual, and less and less need to obey his advice. Unfortunately, as we were getting bigger and bigger ego heads, our original exposure to the PFAL writings was leaking out. The need to refresh our memory, and get the exact wording in our heads, grew simultaneously with our ?perception? that we had no such need.
Mike on what to base our relationship with Jesus Christ on (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
We have the written Word on which to base our relationship with Jesus Christ. For years after Pentecost they only had memories.
Mike on PFAL and Jesus Christ (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
Without the PFAL writings, I see that a spiritual relationship with him is nearly impossible.
Mike on OT Prophets (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
In the OT there were odd fellows who came along now and then who were somehow suited to receive spirit upon them. These people had the genetics, the upbringing, and the free will decisions to propel them into service as prophets. They were coincidentally tough enough in the right places and knowledgeable in the right places and willing to serve in the right places that qualified them to get the supernatural boost of spirit upon for God. They were rare.
Mike on NT Prophets (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
Likewise, it?s rare that someone can develop this spiritual relationship with Christ, without many factors lining up just right.
Mike on the Bible and our relationship with Jesus Christ (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
The Bible remnants are just not good enough to serve us well here. They help in other areas, but here they are not up to the standards of perfection ? that God knows are necessary for it to work.
Mike on something? (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
Since these writings are from God for the specific purpose of teaching us His Word (and WHO is His Word? Jesus Christ) like it (he, Jesus) has not been known since the first century, then the principle kicks in: ?With the coming of the greater, the lesser is terminated.?
Mike on OUR relationship with Jesus Christ (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
Right now a spiritual relationship with Christ looks too abstract and unfulfilling emotionally.
Mike on the Gospels, Epistles and Jesus Christ (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
They were written so that people could start out in the 5-senses and get to know the personality of Christ from a distance. Then, the epistles make more sense. The gospels are like a giant contextual frame for the epistles, and are very useful. They start us out, and then the epistles show us the newer relationship, where there?s no distance, he?s IN us, and we then become him. That?s the spiritual relationship in a nutshell.
Mike on Jesus Christ?s sweat (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
In the garden, Jesus had something going on with his sweat that was not normal.
Mike on talking to Jesus (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
I have talked top Jesus lots and never got possessed. If I limited my relationship to him there, however, then I?d have less ability to wage war on the adversary, and if I went into the wrong battle with this spiritual immatuurity, THEN I might have a lot more trouble dealing with ds possession, ds oppression, and indirect satanic influences.
Mike on alternate interpretations (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
Regarding alternate interpretations of II Cor.5 I might caution that we should really first master what we were taught IN THE BOOKS, and then we can better examine alternates. I am believing the PFAL books. Someday we can closely examine what they say about these matters.
Mike on VP (posted April 15, 2003 14:03):
When he walked with satan he did great bad. It's that way with all of the extremes of the human bell curve. He was given an overdose of brains and brawn; wherever he walked the ground shook. There are people born in the population who are like that, genetically gifted, even over gifted. If these prodigies don?t burn out in adolescence or their early twenties then they go on to do either great good or evil with their natural abilities, usually more evil except more and more subtle so as to hide it. Dr, spent an inordinate amount of time in the good side compared to other members of his physical class, and some of us benefited greatly... for a while.
Mike on determining mastery (posted April 20, 2003 16:18):
You wrote: ?How about one question Mike. What determines a persons mastery of PFAL? Give a simple answer to this question.?
By lot of reading WITH the attitude that it is the authoritative Word of God.
I did give some formal answering in one post to your BIG question which you posted June 08, 2003 17:21 above. Also, I hope you noticed that in a few subsequent posts I indirectly added to my answer without formally addressing you. Maybe I should have, because I had your question still in mind as I wrote.
I?m going back farther on this page for more Q?s I?ve missed.
I realize that a few pages ago I was caught up in several days of work and about a half a page slid by withoug me answering anyone. Was part of your set of Qs in there do you think?
"Let?s be honest. When you first met me a month ago you hadn?t read any of my 900 some posts. Now you say you?ve done a survey of them all and you see my JC Quota low? Did you REALLY check them all?"
I am being honest. My point was not how many times you write Jesus Christ. My point was in how often you preach Christ.
IF I were to look at every post you have ever written (God help me) I am sure the emphasis would be on VPW, not Jesus Christ. You said yourself that this is a thread about VPW and his teachings. At best VPW was a servant for Christ's sake.
My only real point with that post was to show what we are supposed to be glorifying, Jesus Christ.
You make your observations about me and I have made a few myself. Your conclusions bring attention VPW and PFAL.
My point once again since it seems to have been missed is that the subject of God's Word is Jesus Christ. If we are bringing glory and attention to anything other than Jesus Christ we are focusing on the wrong things and our conclusions about God's Word will be inaccurate. Read 2 Corinthians 4:1-7 again.
I am not even going to argue with you about VPW writing something that is God breathed, I never have. I don't care who wrote the scriptures, God is the author (as you have so clearly pointed out). In his Word HE choses to draw our attention to Christ. Christ is the conclusion to all. I have read enough of your posts to see who you draw attention to.
You wrote: ?At last I looked, Steve's last point seems to have illustrated that yours was an invalid statement. You said vpw said something, and Steve pointed out it seems to go nowhere.?
From a dim memory of the first go-around on this Blue p.24, Steve was busy analyzing some things, and then he put a question in terms of his analysis (which I didn?t buy) and the question seemed to be going no where. It seemed to be more a question about his analysis than a question about the Blue Book.
From what I remember it looked like his analysis was top heavy, ie too heavily built on too small a foundation: only one passage. He seemed to ignore my many references to the many OTHER passages which may help him in his analysis so that it doesn?t bring up puzzling questions. I see no such puzzling question in the text of the Blue Book page 24. Do you?
Just for those of you who don?t have a Blue Book handy here are those pages:
?Have we been limiting God in our lives? We must be if we do not have all sufficiency in everything. Sufficiency is the will of God for His children in order that His children may abound unto every good work. Our having sufficiency is God's will for us; yet how many of us have limited God by not allowing Him to fulfill this promise in our lives? How slow we have been to realize that God is our ability, that He is the life of our lives, the strength of our strength, that He is our sufficiency.
?We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, "That just cannot be," and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, "Sufficiency in everything." We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man.
?We cannot know anything about the spiritual world by way of the senses. That is why Paul said by divine inspiration in I Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him ... because they [spiritual matters] are spiritually discerned."
?Spiritual things from the spiritual world may be known in this world only by the spirit which dwells in us. Then, and only then, can the Spirit relate impressions and truths to us about the spiritual world and make them logical. Then, and only then, do we have the God-given ability within us, making known to us things about the spiritual world.
?Time and time again, after I have explained the difference between the natural and spiritual worlds, how the one supersedes the other and that two entirely different sets of laws are in existence, people have said to me that they were thereafter able to give God the place He deserves. Then they refused to limit God within themselves.?
When people look into PFAL the way I am suggesting, THERE they will see Jesus Christ FAR better than I can preach him.
I do preach him as I clean windows to those who don't know much, but to PFAL grads, and to OLGs, the needs are different.
I'm preaching Christ in a way you haven't yet learned to recognize.
In the review of this thread I did on the previous page there were lots of references to where I was bringing Christ Jesus to the forefront.
I believe that when we OLGs get PFAL down properly, spiritually understood as a team, then our outreach for Christ will be MUCH greater than if we were to plod ahead with the mere 5-senses broken cisterns we all have now.
I'm all for preaching Christ, and I want to do it MOST effectively, hence I master PFAL to meet the Master in the air.
Mike I wrote the chunks of Gods children you are missing as Teachers of the bible . not as potential recruits of yours.
I would like you to look at what Jesus said in John 14:26 But the comforter which is the Holy Ghost whom the father will send in my name , he shall TEACH you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance , whatsoever I have said unto you .
then he asks them to be peaceful and not be troubled because He is obeying what God ask him to do and will no longer be with them.
He loves us today just as much in fact it says more because we have not actualy seen him .
I trust what Jesus said to those He cared about and believe the comfort is available today through the Holy spirit which can and does Teach us.
Jesus promised us MIKE! He didnt say anything about vpw being a neccesary part of how we can be peaceful and not troubled and taught in every thing we need to know. He said the HOLY SPIRIT will teach us All things not vpw.
do not try to tell me we need pfal to find the holy spirit , I was born again decades before I took pfal, many are born again without pfal and many will be born again without pfal if the Lord tarries much longer. pfal is not neccesary at all.
Do you deny what Jesus Cchrist tells us as truth in who will TEACH us?
Do you so discount what the bible has to say for what you are so worried about in having to "come back " (what the hell does that mean?) to pfal ?
Your advertisement is based on a big huge disaster in a very small cult like religion, that your trying to fix.
Jesus Christ says do not worry and be peaceful the Holy Spirit will teach you All things you need to know..
You wrote: ?Mike I wrote the chunks of Gods children you are missing as Teachers of the bible . not as potential recruits of yours.?
Ok, it looks like we mis-communicated there.
Back on track with you, I got those chunks years ago. I sampled lots of non-Way stuff from the 70?s all the way to 1998, which is when I came BACK to PFAL and focused on it bigtime. On many, many issues I suspected Dr was POSSIBLY wrong, and I checked out what other teachers out there had to offer. In the long run, after LOTS of shopping, I came back to PFAL.
I need to correct you about the recruit thing. It was people who I wanted to serve that I had mentioned, not people I wanted to recruit to serve me. Do you ever look around for people who need what you got in Christ so you can help them? If you do want to help people, how would you feel if you then got accused of ?recruiting? them to help you or serve you? I'm really trying to help, and I got lots of information to do it with. I just look for grads who are ready to get helped again.
*******************************
You then wrote about John 14:26 : ?Jesus promised us MIKE! He didnt say anything about vpw being a neccesary part of how we can be peaceful and not troubled and taught in every thing we need to know. He said the HOLY SPIRIT will teach us All things not vpw.?
mj, I?m aware of those verses and have worked them for decades. Please allow me point out some details about the same verses you brought up. You see, those verses do well to assure us that God will teach us. They are VERY comforting, and I am thankful you refreshed my memory of them.
There are SOME things those verses DON?T tell us, however, and it?s good to be aware of these things. Those verses in John don?t tell us HOW the information is going to get to us, they simply assure us that it WILL get to us.
There are several ways, and actually all of them may at times be utilized. One is directly, by way of the three revelation manifestations. This is the method that many people latch on to as if it was the ONLY way.
Another way is by phenomena, like the burning bush Moses got early in his spiritual development, or the handwriting on the wall the evil king got.
Another way is by reading as Paul says in Ephesians 3:4 ?Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ...? This is the way lots of people get talked out of, because it doesn't seem as glamorous as direct revelation.
But guess what, mj412? You had to READ the John 14:26 verses to know about the assurance of information that you quoted me. If it weren?t for you READING that in a trusted context, you wouldn?t have the confidence to think it and say it.
Let?s look at the context of Eph 3:4, because it ALSO talks about the first method, the direct revelation method, right in there with the reading method.
Eph 3:1-6
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;
(as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read,
ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs,
and of the same body,
and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Notice the mention of apostles and prophets in there? They come up again in the next chapter. I?m focusing on them because when people opt for the "glamorous" direct method they get tricked out of the gifts Jesus Christ gives to help us in the READING category. Jesus supplies apostles and prophets to give us good written doctrine, and THEN when we read and study that material we have that guidance that Jesus promised in John's gospel.
Eph 4:11-15
And he gave some, apostles;
and some, prophets;
and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors
and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints,
for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children,
tossed to and fro,
and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men,
and cunning craftiness,
whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love,
may grow up into him in all things,
which is the head, even Christ:
In those verses the idea of ?Christ formed within? comes up a lot:
...the perfecting of the saints,
...Till we all come... ...unto a perfect man,
...the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
...grow up into him in all things,
Being guided by The Holy Spirit and by holy spirit is a WONDERFUL process and all three methods have there place.
It?s not HOW the information comes that's important, it?s THAT it comes that's important.
People get all hung up on it being only the direct method, but that?s HARD and costly. Reading is much smoother a growth process. This subject will come up again when we discuss spiritual understanding versus 5-senses understanding, and also the subject of HOW to get the direct revelation.
Getting direct revelation on DOCTRINE is a rare thing.
Getting revelation on PERSONAL matters, is supposed to be a COMMON thing. Soon it will.
Receiving an understanding of right doctrine is an on-going process. The more we seek Him via the accuracy of His Word, the more He can guide us. Big breakthroughs in discovering more accurate Word and more Godly guidance await those who take Dr up on his final instructions to us to master PFAL because he received that revelation in many forms and finally got it into written form, readable form, book and magazine form. It's the same process God used 2000 years ago to get Paul?s revelations into written form were used again in the 20th century.
Why is this so forbidden of God to do?
It?s very loving and generous of Him to give us His Word DIRECTLY in English. It?s worth mastering it.
When it comes to right doctrine, it's the gift ministries that prevent us from being blown around with every wind of doctrine, as recorded in Ephesians 4. We can get direct revelation for things in our personal lives when we really NEED it, but even much of this kind of guidance is already written.
When it comes to right doctrine, I see many people blowing about thinking they don't need the gift ministries, and the Holy Spirit will DIRECTLY guide them into all truth. They add the word "directly" to John 16:13 and try to dismiss the need for God's specially appointed middle men to give us His Word for reading.
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You then wrote: ?do not try to tell me we need pfal to find the holy spirit , I was born again decades before I took pfal, many are born again without pfal and many will be born again without pfal if the Lord tarries much longer. pfal is not neccesary at all.?
For those of us who want to still serve, hold forth the Word, teach, heal, etc, PFAL is necessary to get the fullness of what God has revealed in these recent decades. I?m talking about an ?all nine all the time? kind of lifestyle where we tap into the fullness of what Jesus Christ made available.
**********************************
Coming back to PFAL simply means getting blessed again by the Word that is shared in those books and that happens by READING it. No recruiting, no serving me, just reading and enjoying... again. There?s no TWI to lord it over us, no leadership left to tell us how to read. It?s just us and God now, reading the revelations He gave us to improve over man made Bibles.
Like Paul?s epistles assisted God?s people to make the transition from one administration to a new one, so does PFAL prepare us for the administration transition that is occurring now.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 10, 2003 at 2:43.]
On this thread, Mike has been contending that Wierwille's writings contain a ubiquitously hidden teaching regarding what Mike calls the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit, which is, according to Mike's own definition, a spirit different from the gift of holy spirit.
Mike says that our understanding of the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit "depends heavily" on understanding "the Natural/Factual versus Spiritual/True dichotomy". If our acceptance of the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit is so crucial, and if our acceptance depends so heavily on our understanding of the "Natural/Spiritual dichotomy", then I would expect Wierwille's statement about the supercession of the worlds to make real sense and to be explainable.
I contend that the Word of God does not present a "senses realm/spiritual realm" dichotomy, that Wierwille's statement does not make any real sense, and cannot be explained.
Mike admits that he can't explain it, but he doesn't want to make a "rush to judgment" that could cause him to question the validity of the strange conversion he experienced five years ago.
Wierwille's original statement was this, "As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supercedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world."
My question is this, "In what way do these kingdoms supercede each other, such that their supercession can be used as an illustration of how the supernatural world supercedes the natural world?"
In other words, Wierwille is purporting in this statement to be teaching us something about the supercession of worlds. Exactly *what* does it teach? Can you answer that, Mike? Or seaspray? or cyasurfin?
Since the book of Hebrews appears to be resuscitated from among the tattered remnants, let's look at Hebrews 5:12-14,
12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 "For every one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
To put it into the vernacular,
"For truly, when you aught to be teachers by this time, you need somebody to teach you again what are the primary elements of the Word of God. You need to go back to drinking milk instead of eating solid food. For everyone who can only drink milk is unskilled in the Word of Righteousness, because he's just like an infant. But solid food is for the fully grown, those who on account of practice have their 5-senses exercised toward discrimination of good and of evil."
What's interesting about these verses is the truth that they are the only place in the Word of God where the word we would translate "5-senses" occurs. We know from Peters' "Greek Philosophical Terms" that "5-senses world" comes from "kosmos aisthetos" (we can't know from the Word of God because the phrase "5-senses world" doesn't occur in it). The word "aistheterion" occurs in Hebrews 5:14, the one and only time it, or any of its cognates, appears. One use, and one use only, of "5-senses".
And what do we learn from this one and only use? Do we learn that there is a "5-senses world"? No.
Do we learn that everything that comes to us through our 5-senses is "factual" instead of "true"? Nope. The words "fact" and "factual" never even appear in the Word of God.
Do we learn that the 5-senses are *always* unreliable? Quite the contrary. We learn that it is by exercising our 5-senses through practice toward telling the difference between good and evil that we mature as Christians!
We don't become capable of eating the solid food of the Word by trusting an alien spirit who tells us that there is a "spiritual" meaning that contradicts the 5-senses meaning of the words as written.
We become capable of eating the solid food of the Word by building a habit of using our 5-senses to distinguish between what's good, and what's evil. The word "good" in Hebrews 5:14 is "kalon", the same as the word "good" in I Thessalonians 5:21. We are to use our 5-senses to "prove all things".
Love,
Steve
P.S. - The Word of God never uses the word "oikonomia", translated as "stewardship" or "administration", to indicate "a period of time"
I do no think so , I do not believe the only people preparded for Gods work are the people who master pfal .
Or even read it.
We Serve the Lord Mike a Risen Christ for mankind, not one another that is YOUR gig. Jesus asks us to love one another and serve in the capacity of obeying His instructions in our life.
those last two paragraghs of yours read like your so special and fined tuned and Needed by God He just cant go on with out these pfal grads clinging to the only hope left for mankind.
And you the faithful leader holding strong for the good of mankind.
alot of drama there ! lol
Your saying to get all nine all the time pfal is the only answer every other christian or spiritual avenue to God is a lesser.
You have truly made pfal your God.
My God is not that tiny and unable to achieve for His people. MY God does not respect only those who "master pfal" above anyone eles with abilities to Worship HIM which is what He wants from His children .
Jesus says Seek and He will answer and I see no small print on the bottom of the page that says but if you take pfal your even better.
Mike it is what only you believe, which is fine but even the author of pfal would not agree with you on this idea. that makes me upset because you use others and the idea that it comes from a place of serving and it isnt serving the Lord in the least.
I do not think asking someone to read pfal is a bad thing, I think you have made it to much in your life to the point you can not even work with the holy spirit that lives and breathes in each born again christian unless you LIMIT it to being a grad of a class that was really quite simple bible verses that most understand by the age of twelve.
very well said mj. You know mike I have to say that in your writings you believe that pfal books are the only way to go. That you can't receive any of the manifestations unless you master pfal. Wow that is really big mike. For you to have that much responsibility in sharing that with us all. You are a savior. You will reap great benefits in heaven as you are now. Your life must be very grand with all the revelation you get and all the people gathering around you to hear you. We are all honored by your presence. It is so wonderful for you to be able to 'see' things we can not see and to understand vpw's writings. Wow, to be able to see the secret passages that vpw wrote is something else. And for you to have such happiness in life finding all these things to share with us is really awsome. NOT!!!!!
Mike, you know what I don't like about pfal books? They are written to us from vpw that are works of others and they are written to us as if we are little children. Like he was our father or something. Like we don't know anything and have to have his guidance. You have a mind mike, a wonderful intelligence that if you worked the Word and not the books you would find greatness in it all. You know if vpw was so great and was our savior for our times don't you think it would have been written to us in the bible for us to see? It could read something like this. 'In years later there will be no belief and there will come a man to show you the ways of the Lord. Believe on him for he shall guide the way for you.' Or something like that. Nothing. Zilcho. It talks a lot in the Word about false prophets. It talks about wolves in sheeps clothing. There are a lot of passages about believers being deceived to think of different beliefs that are Godly. But not one passage referring to vpw. It talks about Jesus Christ. It talks about how getting to know Him you will know the Father. It doesn't say anything about a man coming into our lives and getting to know Him and thereby getting to know the Father.
But I guess after five years of just pfal it would be hard for you to admit you might be wrong.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
seaspray
I'm in. Let's kick the ball.
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Tom
No thanks. I tried to meet you on your own ground, but you weren't there.
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Mike
Hey fellas, fightin's not in style. Let's get back to topic.
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Mike
Steve Lortz,
My notes on other references to the Nat/Spir dichotomy are maturing and I?ll be able to post soon.
Last night I was reviewing all the pages of this thread and I came across the first time (not the recent one) you had difficulty with that one page 24 in the Blue Book. It refreshed my memory as to what was bothering you, and I saw that at that time I didn?t seem to have an answer that would satisfy you. My stated policy when encountering AEs or kinks is NOT to abandon my PFAL respect and study, but to be on the lookout for more light. I?ve seen enough of these little problems melt away to justify this policy. Even on the short course of these threads we saw one such AE (timing of David?s heart designation) melt in the heat of the Word with no trouble at all.
It was with this in mind that I withheld direct consideration of your question in this second round. Like I said, I think it?s premature to consider it too deeply, until more data is on the table. My notes will be ready in a few days, so I just wanted to prepare you so that you can pour over ALL the places (at least that I can find in 5 years) to get a feel for your answer.
May I again caution you against premature judgement. These things deserve weeks and months and even years to ponder properly. I ran across the PFAL passage where Dr says sometimes it takes years to see something fit. It?s very instructive.
Here is PFAL page 224:
?Let me briefly point out one final key in understanding Biblical truth.
What course of action does a person follow when he cannot make sense
of a very difficult verse -- when the verse, the context and previous
usage are not satisfactory in giving him understanding?
?The difficult verse must be understood in the light of clear verses. There
may be one verse that stands out as difficult, while there are many verses
on the same subject which are clear. Modern man has magnified the
difficult one and forgotten the many clear ones. That is not honest. That is
not rightly dividing The Word. We must see that the one fits with the many,
not by squeezing it but by working it. Sometimes I have waited ten years to
fit one thorny verse with the rest of the accuracy of The Word. Time is not
important when studying a verse; the keys in The Word are. When we
rightly divide The Word as to whom it is written, we understand that the
one difficult verse must always fit in the light of the clear verses on the
same subject.?
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mj412
I have an idea .
Lets put this thread in one of those time boxes and wait ten years!
When we opene it in ten years. holy crap ! walaa the answers will appear!
maybe it is freaking magic!
good grief Mike does every thing that vpw did have to be incorporated in your own life and relationship with God?
You leave out chunks of Gods children you know huge chunks of those who have made paths for others to understand what God is and live a more fullfilling life. what about them?
uncle.
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Mike
mj412,
I'm not leaving out anyone. I'm seeking to serve them AFTER I master PFAL.
That's the purpose of Power For Abundant Living, the power and abundance being all nine manifestations, seven of which are for SERVICE to others. The last/lost teaching of Dr?s was ?The Joy of Serving? and in it he tells us that in order to do SUPER service we have to SUPER master PFAL.
Mj, I?m only temporarily addressing a section of the grads, the OLGs who saw that at one time PFAL was good and from God but then something went wrong. I?m here to report that what went wrong was NOT the writings! Almost anything else can be seen as pooping out in one way or another, but the Word in ?BOOK AND MAGAZINE FORM? is pure.
That quote, ?book and magazine form is from ?How the Word Works? Dr?s Our Times editorial with main article ?Masters of the Word.? It?s posted here and easy to find in the summary above..
...book and magazine FORM
...Christ FORMED within
...hmmmm
Anyway, once a bunch of us OLGs come back, just a initial wave of a dozen or so, and pick up where we left off then things can REALLY start healing. THEN we can MUCH more effectively help others.
I see PFAL as our (OLGs) super school for service to others.
.
.
.
P.S. Non-OLGs are weclome too.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 09, 2003 at 16:03.]
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dizzydog
I have a better idea -
Let's put this thread in a time box.
period
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Mike
Relax! There may be a limit to the number of threads the software can handle. Pawtucket may know. Dizzydog, you can pray that it crashes when it hits the limit. How's that?
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Mike
In culling through my notes, some are not so much explanations of the Nat/Spir dichotomy (...I feel an acronym coming on... just a feeling..) as they are applications or illustrations.
Here is one such application/illustration. See if you can spot the buzz words that tip off the astute reader if it?s the Natural/Factual realm being emphasized or the Spiritual/Divine perspective.
This is from PFAL page 106:
?We have failed to walk in deliverance in this our day and
time because The Word is not real, it is not alive, it is not
dynamic to or in us. Consequently most people are spiritual
cripples, spiritual hitchhikers. They ride along on somebody
else?s beliefs. Many people today would much rather read
and study the literature of the hour than the literature of
eternity. Why? Because the word of man has had preeminence
over the wonderful Word of God. If what man says contradicts
what The Word says, they stick to man?s word rather than The
Word. If we want deliverance, if we want to tap the resources
for the more abundant life, then God?s Word demands that we
study and live by this matchless Word.?
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Mike
A tiny bit of logic:
If, If, IF The PFAL writings are God-breathed,
Then BY COMPARISON the English versions of the Bible that come to us by the traditional paths are mere opinions and words of men and limited to being approximations of God?s Word.
*******************************************
It?s when I focus on believing the above ?if? that I can say BY COMPARISON traditional Bibles are ?tattered remnants.?
Otherwise, I?m very thankful for these academic and scholarly reconstructions of most of the originals, with fairly decent translations into English. I depended greatly on such tools as the KJV in order to get to the place that I can now understand PFAL and the ?many words added? God chose to include in His re-format of His own Word.
I still like to open and read my KJV with hundreds of notes and memories on every NT page and tons of OT too. It was a totally necessary stepping stone to get to something more accurate, and anyone who?s been careful and meticulous in how they accumulate their wide margin notes know what I?m talking about. It?s a great old friend in a sense, and I?m reminded of in every page of PFAL.
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Mike
This is the same from PFAL page 106 with my bracketed comments:
We have failed to walk in deliverance in THIS our day and time [NOW ? today... 2003... this is foretelling, prophesy] because The Word is not real [sPIRITUAL], it is not alive [sPIRITUAL], it is not dynamic [changing from 5-senses to SPIRITUAL] to or in us. [We don't have a spiritual understanding; at best it?s 5-senses and limited.]
Consequently most people are spiritual cripples, spiritual hitchhikers. They ride along on somebody else?s beliefs. Many people today would much rather read and study the literature of the hour [latest splinter teacher or maybe-grad on TV] than the literature of eternity [sPIRITUAL]. Why? Because the word of man [traditional religion and traditional texts] has had preeminence over the wonderful Word of God [this Word that He gave us in PFAL].
If what man [scholars, researchers, theologians, 5-senses investigators] says contradicts what The Word [PFAL revelation] says, they stick to man?s word rather than The Word.
If we want deliverance, if we want to tap the resources for the more abundant [sPIRITUAL] life, then God?s Word demands that we study and live by this [this ...as in ?THIS PFAL book you?re reading now...?] matchless Word.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 09, 2003 at 16:58.]
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JesseJoe
I just want to repost my Mike on List, starting with my favorite. Mike, you are making it a point to post your comments on Jesus Christ. Interesting. I don?t recall any of the below quotes in your posts. But I was just scanning your writings.
seaspray, I would love to get your take on the first one.
Jesse
Mike on the spirit of lust (posted April 14, 2003 16:37):
Yes. That one does affect the mind.
But you know how quickly a man can reset his mind after sexual release. This is one of the big ways men differ from women.
We were taught that devils can be run off with sommething as simple as an aspirin or some music.
After sexual release a man is pretty immune to that spirit for almost a whole day. ...sometimes many days.
Mike on why he posts at GreaseSpot (posted March 30, 2003 14:00):
Most of what I've been trying to do here at GSC is report new data, things I?ve found in the record that I?ve perceived to be hidden from sight, or not present in our collective memory, or not part of the common discussions between us older grads of PFAL.
Mike on the purpose of GreaseSpot (posted March 31, 2003 19:20):
If we can see more exactly what went wrong, we can more exactly fix it.
Isn't that the deeper purpose of what this place is all about?
Mike on PFAL
Just like Psalm 103 has the potential to impart to us the hidden, deeper spiritual understanding, so do the PFAL writings. God arraigned it that way to help us go farther than believers have been able to go since the first century.
Mike on The Problem (posted April 01, 2003 00:17):
Our egos hit this stumbling block in obeying Dr?s oft issued instructions to master the material. Dr told us to master PFAL, to get into it again at the deeper, spiritual level, but we thought our 5-senses understanding of the material was sufficient.
Mike on most of us (posted April 02, 2003 10:11)
For you and other dumbdowners I?ll spell out my reasons for this thread.
Mike on VP?s vocabulary (posted April 02, 2003 10:11)
As we return to PFAL, knowing that certain words in Dr?s vocabulary pertain exclusively to the spiritual side and certain others to the physical, THEN our reading will progress faster and more accurately.
Mike on defining ?leader? (posted April 02, 2003 11:18)
I am defining ?leader? here as just about anyone with some intelligence who went farther than merely taking the class. In MY use of leader, IN THIS CONTEXT, I mean any twig leader on up (or is it down?) plus any Corps or WOWs. It could also mean any one that served, or was in a position to help and guide.
Mike on responsibility (posted April 02, 2003 11:18)
Because I do not subscribe to the one villain theory, I see primary responsibility for the ministry meltdown (one year after Dr?s death) as being due to the collective disobedience of older leader grads, and YES, I DO INCLUDE MYSELF HERE! I think we (older leader grads) all contributed to the problems
Mike on his vision for the future (posted April 02, 2003 11:18):
? the GOOD NEWS is that we older leader grads can come back to PFAL, master it as we were so often instructed to do by Dr, and then resume the ?good old days? only in better form, never to be tricked out of it again.
Mike on the Gospels vs. the Epistles (April 04, 2003 00:07):
We were right in respecting the epistles of Paul as greater words.
Mike on God?s choice of messenger (posted April 05, 2003 19:15):
I agree that things went wrong in lots of ways. I'm just happy to report that we can come back to the PFAL books, with an attitude of thankfulness to God that He slipped this into our lap by way of a MOST unexpected kind of messenger. Even the devil didn't guess this could happen.
Mike on God?s strategy (posted April 05, 2003 19:15):
God uses strategy to get things done right under the devil's nose. The mystery is only one such example. The selection of Paul was a stunning move God pulled on the devil. So was VPW. We all got stunned in the process, but God gave us special shields and the stun was set for "mild" in our vicinity.
Mike on our relationship with Jesus (posted April 06, 2003 00:52):
The relationship we have with Jesus is one of taking his place.
Mike on knowing Jesus (posted April 06, 2003 00:52):
We get to know him the way an actor gets to know the character they play. The actor becomes the role they portray, but only for the duration of the play. We get to do it for keeps.
Mike on dodging (posted April 10, 2003 01:49)
Besides, I only dodge certain ISSUES, not people.
Mike on speaking to Jesus (posted April 10, 2003 04:16)
The Bible does have a few people talking to Jesus post Pentecost, but it seems like those things happened when people were contacted.
Mike on Older Leader Grads (posted April 10, 2003 04:16)
Dr often and urge book mastery to close the gap between the TVT and the written materials, but as the years Went by, us OLGs felt more and more spiritual, and less and less need to obey his advice. Unfortunately, as we were getting bigger and bigger ego heads, our original exposure to the PFAL writings was leaking out. The need to refresh our memory, and get the exact wording in our heads, grew simultaneously with our ?perception? that we had no such need.
Mike on what to base our relationship with Jesus Christ on (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
We have the written Word on which to base our relationship with Jesus Christ. For years after Pentecost they only had memories.
Mike on PFAL and Jesus Christ (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
Without the PFAL writings, I see that a spiritual relationship with him is nearly impossible.
Mike on OT Prophets (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
In the OT there were odd fellows who came along now and then who were somehow suited to receive spirit upon them. These people had the genetics, the upbringing, and the free will decisions to propel them into service as prophets. They were coincidentally tough enough in the right places and knowledgeable in the right places and willing to serve in the right places that qualified them to get the supernatural boost of spirit upon for God. They were rare.
Mike on NT Prophets (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
Likewise, it?s rare that someone can develop this spiritual relationship with Christ, without many factors lining up just right.
Mike on the Bible and our relationship with Jesus Christ (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
The Bible remnants are just not good enough to serve us well here. They help in other areas, but here they are not up to the standards of perfection ? that God knows are necessary for it to work.
Mike on something? (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
Since these writings are from God for the specific purpose of teaching us His Word (and WHO is His Word? Jesus Christ) like it (he, Jesus) has not been known since the first century, then the principle kicks in: ?With the coming of the greater, the lesser is terminated.?
Mike on OUR relationship with Jesus Christ (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
Right now a spiritual relationship with Christ looks too abstract and unfulfilling emotionally.
Mike on the Gospels, Epistles and Jesus Christ (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
They were written so that people could start out in the 5-senses and get to know the personality of Christ from a distance. Then, the epistles make more sense. The gospels are like a giant contextual frame for the epistles, and are very useful. They start us out, and then the epistles show us the newer relationship, where there?s no distance, he?s IN us, and we then become him. That?s the spiritual relationship in a nutshell.
Mike on Jesus Christ?s sweat (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
In the garden, Jesus had something going on with his sweat that was not normal.
Mike on talking to Jesus (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
I have talked top Jesus lots and never got possessed. If I limited my relationship to him there, however, then I?d have less ability to wage war on the adversary, and if I went into the wrong battle with this spiritual immatuurity, THEN I might have a lot more trouble dealing with ds possession, ds oppression, and indirect satanic influences.
Mike on alternate interpretations (posted April 10, 2003 14:22)
Regarding alternate interpretations of II Cor.5 I might caution that we should really first master what we were taught IN THE BOOKS, and then we can better examine alternates. I am believing the PFAL books. Someday we can closely examine what they say about these matters.
Mike on VP (posted April 15, 2003 14:03):
When he walked with satan he did great bad. It's that way with all of the extremes of the human bell curve. He was given an overdose of brains and brawn; wherever he walked the ground shook. There are people born in the population who are like that, genetically gifted, even over gifted. If these prodigies don?t burn out in adolescence or their early twenties then they go on to do either great good or evil with their natural abilities, usually more evil except more and more subtle so as to hide it. Dr, spent an inordinate amount of time in the good side compared to other members of his physical class, and some of us benefited greatly... for a while.
Mike on determining mastery (posted April 20, 2003 16:18):
You wrote: ?How about one question Mike. What determines a persons mastery of PFAL? Give a simple answer to this question.?
By lot of reading WITH the attitude that it is the authoritative Word of God.
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Mike
Thanks, JesseJoe!
You just save me a lot of investigative work.
.
.
.(Nick Danger 1969)
.
.
.But such an odd order to put that list in.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 10, 2003 at 20:45.]
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Mike
...and not only that, I'd have never lived down the ego catcalls if I had posted something like this myself.
Now, let's not make the topic little ole me here again.
Who out there can explain the difference between 5-senses understanding and spiritual understanding?
Hmmmmmmmm?
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Mike
WordWolf,
I did give some formal answering in one post to your BIG question which you posted June 08, 2003 17:21 above. Also, I hope you noticed that in a few subsequent posts I indirectly added to my answer without formally addressing you. Maybe I should have, because I had your question still in mind as I wrote.
I?m going back farther on this page for more Q?s I?ve missed.
I realize that a few pages ago I was caught up in several days of work and about a half a page slid by withoug me answering anyone. Was part of your set of Qs in there do you think?
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dizzydog
Mike,
You wrote:
"Let?s be honest. When you first met me a month ago you hadn?t read any of my 900 some posts. Now you say you?ve done a survey of them all and you see my JC Quota low? Did you REALLY check them all?"
I am being honest. My point was not how many times you write Jesus Christ. My point was in how often you preach Christ.
IF I were to look at every post you have ever written (God help me) I am sure the emphasis would be on VPW, not Jesus Christ. You said yourself that this is a thread about VPW and his teachings. At best VPW was a servant for Christ's sake.
My only real point with that post was to show what we are supposed to be glorifying, Jesus Christ.
You make your observations about me and I have made a few myself. Your conclusions bring attention VPW and PFAL.
My point once again since it seems to have been missed is that the subject of God's Word is Jesus Christ. If we are bringing glory and attention to anything other than Jesus Christ we are focusing on the wrong things and our conclusions about God's Word will be inaccurate. Read 2 Corinthians 4:1-7 again.
I am not even going to argue with you about VPW writing something that is God breathed, I never have. I don't care who wrote the scriptures, God is the author (as you have so clearly pointed out). In his Word HE choses to draw our attention to Christ. Christ is the conclusion to all. I have read enough of your posts to see who you draw attention to.
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dizzydog
And frankly, why would we want to write or say anything that does not preach Christ?
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Mike
WordWolf,
You wrote: ?At last I looked, Steve's last point seems to have illustrated that yours was an invalid statement. You said vpw said something, and Steve pointed out it seems to go nowhere.?
From a dim memory of the first go-around on this Blue p.24, Steve was busy analyzing some things, and then he put a question in terms of his analysis (which I didn?t buy) and the question seemed to be going no where. It seemed to be more a question about his analysis than a question about the Blue Book.
From what I remember it looked like his analysis was top heavy, ie too heavily built on too small a foundation: only one passage. He seemed to ignore my many references to the many OTHER passages which may help him in his analysis so that it doesn?t bring up puzzling questions. I see no such puzzling question in the text of the Blue Book page 24. Do you?
Just for those of you who don?t have a Blue Book handy here are those pages:
*****************************************************************
BTMS pages 23 and 24
?Have we been limiting God in our lives? We must be if we do not have all sufficiency in everything. Sufficiency is the will of God for His children in order that His children may abound unto every good work. Our having sufficiency is God's will for us; yet how many of us have limited God by not allowing Him to fulfill this promise in our lives? How slow we have been to realize that God is our ability, that He is the life of our lives, the strength of our strength, that He is our sufficiency.
?We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, "That just cannot be," and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, "Sufficiency in everything." We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man.
?We cannot know anything about the spiritual world by way of the senses. That is why Paul said by divine inspiration in I Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him ... because they [spiritual matters] are spiritually discerned."
?Spiritual things from the spiritual world may be known in this world only by the spirit which dwells in us. Then, and only then, can the Spirit relate impressions and truths to us about the spiritual world and make them logical. Then, and only then, do we have the God-given ability within us, making known to us things about the spiritual world.
?Time and time again, after I have explained the difference between the natural and spiritual worlds, how the one supersedes the other and that two entirely different sets of laws are in existence, people have said to me that they were thereafter able to give God the place He deserves. Then they refused to limit God within themselves.?
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[This message was edited by Mike on June 09, 2003 at 20:38.]
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Mike
dizzydog,
When people look into PFAL the way I am suggesting, THERE they will see Jesus Christ FAR better than I can preach him.
I do preach him as I clean windows to those who don't know much, but to PFAL grads, and to OLGs, the needs are different.
I'm preaching Christ in a way you haven't yet learned to recognize.
In the review of this thread I did on the previous page there were lots of references to where I was bringing Christ Jesus to the forefront.
I believe that when we OLGs get PFAL down properly, spiritually understood as a team, then our outreach for Christ will be MUCH greater than if we were to plod ahead with the mere 5-senses broken cisterns we all have now.
I'm all for preaching Christ, and I want to do it MOST effectively, hence I master PFAL to meet the Master in the air.
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mj412
Mike I wrote the chunks of Gods children you are missing as Teachers of the bible . not as potential recruits of yours.
I would like you to look at what Jesus said in John 14:26 But the comforter which is the Holy Ghost whom the father will send in my name , he shall TEACH you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance , whatsoever I have said unto you .
then he asks them to be peaceful and not be troubled because He is obeying what God ask him to do and will no longer be with them.
He loves us today just as much in fact it says more because we have not actualy seen him .
I trust what Jesus said to those He cared about and believe the comfort is available today through the Holy spirit which can and does Teach us.
Jesus promised us MIKE! He didnt say anything about vpw being a neccesary part of how we can be peaceful and not troubled and taught in every thing we need to know. He said the HOLY SPIRIT will teach us All things not vpw.
do not try to tell me we need pfal to find the holy spirit , I was born again decades before I took pfal, many are born again without pfal and many will be born again without pfal if the Lord tarries much longer. pfal is not neccesary at all.
Do you deny what Jesus Cchrist tells us as truth in who will TEACH us?
Do you so discount what the bible has to say for what you are so worried about in having to "come back " (what the hell does that mean?) to pfal ?
Your advertisement is based on a big huge disaster in a very small cult like religion, that your trying to fix.
Jesus Christ says do not worry and be peaceful the Holy Spirit will teach you All things you need to know..
Which would you honestly chose as a answer?
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Mike
mj412,
You wrote: ?Mike I wrote the chunks of Gods children you are missing as Teachers of the bible . not as potential recruits of yours.?
Ok, it looks like we mis-communicated there.
Back on track with you, I got those chunks years ago. I sampled lots of non-Way stuff from the 70?s all the way to 1998, which is when I came BACK to PFAL and focused on it bigtime. On many, many issues I suspected Dr was POSSIBLY wrong, and I checked out what other teachers out there had to offer. In the long run, after LOTS of shopping, I came back to PFAL.
I need to correct you about the recruit thing. It was people who I wanted to serve that I had mentioned, not people I wanted to recruit to serve me. Do you ever look around for people who need what you got in Christ so you can help them? If you do want to help people, how would you feel if you then got accused of ?recruiting? them to help you or serve you? I'm really trying to help, and I got lots of information to do it with. I just look for grads who are ready to get helped again.
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You then wrote about John 14:26 : ?Jesus promised us MIKE! He didnt say anything about vpw being a neccesary part of how we can be peaceful and not troubled and taught in every thing we need to know. He said the HOLY SPIRIT will teach us All things not vpw.?
mj, I?m aware of those verses and have worked them for decades. Please allow me point out some details about the same verses you brought up. You see, those verses do well to assure us that God will teach us. They are VERY comforting, and I am thankful you refreshed my memory of them.
There are SOME things those verses DON?T tell us, however, and it?s good to be aware of these things. Those verses in John don?t tell us HOW the information is going to get to us, they simply assure us that it WILL get to us.
There are several ways, and actually all of them may at times be utilized. One is directly, by way of the three revelation manifestations. This is the method that many people latch on to as if it was the ONLY way.
Another way is by phenomena, like the burning bush Moses got early in his spiritual development, or the handwriting on the wall the evil king got.
Another way is by reading as Paul says in Ephesians 3:4 ?Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ...? This is the way lots of people get talked out of, because it doesn't seem as glamorous as direct revelation.
But guess what, mj412? You had to READ the John 14:26 verses to know about the assurance of information that you quoted me. If it weren?t for you READING that in a trusted context, you wouldn?t have the confidence to think it and say it.
Let?s look at the context of Eph 3:4, because it ALSO talks about the first method, the direct revelation method, right in there with the reading method.
Eph 3:1-6
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;
(as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read,
ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs,
and of the same body,
and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Notice the mention of apostles and prophets in there? They come up again in the next chapter. I?m focusing on them because when people opt for the "glamorous" direct method they get tricked out of the gifts Jesus Christ gives to help us in the READING category. Jesus supplies apostles and prophets to give us good written doctrine, and THEN when we read and study that material we have that guidance that Jesus promised in John's gospel.
Eph 4:11-15
And he gave some, apostles;
and some, prophets;
and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors
and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints,
for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children,
tossed to and fro,
and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men,
and cunning craftiness,
whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love,
may grow up into him in all things,
which is the head, even Christ:
In those verses the idea of ?Christ formed within? comes up a lot:
...the perfecting of the saints,
...Till we all come... ...unto a perfect man,
...the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
...grow up into him in all things,
Being guided by The Holy Spirit and by holy spirit is a WONDERFUL process and all three methods have there place.
It?s not HOW the information comes that's important, it?s THAT it comes that's important.
People get all hung up on it being only the direct method, but that?s HARD and costly. Reading is much smoother a growth process. This subject will come up again when we discuss spiritual understanding versus 5-senses understanding, and also the subject of HOW to get the direct revelation.
Getting direct revelation on DOCTRINE is a rare thing.
Getting revelation on PERSONAL matters, is supposed to be a COMMON thing. Soon it will.
Receiving an understanding of right doctrine is an on-going process. The more we seek Him via the accuracy of His Word, the more He can guide us. Big breakthroughs in discovering more accurate Word and more Godly guidance await those who take Dr up on his final instructions to us to master PFAL because he received that revelation in many forms and finally got it into written form, readable form, book and magazine form. It's the same process God used 2000 years ago to get Paul?s revelations into written form were used again in the 20th century.
Why is this so forbidden of God to do?
It?s very loving and generous of Him to give us His Word DIRECTLY in English. It?s worth mastering it.
When it comes to right doctrine, it's the gift ministries that prevent us from being blown around with every wind of doctrine, as recorded in Ephesians 4. We can get direct revelation for things in our personal lives when we really NEED it, but even much of this kind of guidance is already written.
When it comes to right doctrine, I see many people blowing about thinking they don't need the gift ministries, and the Holy Spirit will DIRECTLY guide them into all truth. They add the word "directly" to John 16:13 and try to dismiss the need for God's specially appointed middle men to give us His Word for reading.
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You then wrote: ?do not try to tell me we need pfal to find the holy spirit , I was born again decades before I took pfal, many are born again without pfal and many will be born again without pfal if the Lord tarries much longer. pfal is not neccesary at all.?
For those of us who want to still serve, hold forth the Word, teach, heal, etc, PFAL is necessary to get the fullness of what God has revealed in these recent decades. I?m talking about an ?all nine all the time? kind of lifestyle where we tap into the fullness of what Jesus Christ made available.
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Coming back to PFAL simply means getting blessed again by the Word that is shared in those books and that happens by READING it. No recruiting, no serving me, just reading and enjoying... again. There?s no TWI to lord it over us, no leadership left to tell us how to read. It?s just us and God now, reading the revelations He gave us to improve over man made Bibles.
Like Paul?s epistles assisted God?s people to make the transition from one administration to a new one, so does PFAL prepare us for the administration transition that is occurring now.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 10, 2003 at 2:43.]
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Steve Lortz
On this thread, Mike has been contending that Wierwille's writings contain a ubiquitously hidden teaching regarding what Mike calls the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit, which is, according to Mike's own definition, a spirit different from the gift of holy spirit.
Mike says that our understanding of the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit "depends heavily" on understanding "the Natural/Factual versus Spiritual/True dichotomy". If our acceptance of the "advanced Christ formed within" spirit is so crucial, and if our acceptance depends so heavily on our understanding of the "Natural/Spiritual dichotomy", then I would expect Wierwille's statement about the supercession of the worlds to make real sense and to be explainable.
I contend that the Word of God does not present a "senses realm/spiritual realm" dichotomy, that Wierwille's statement does not make any real sense, and cannot be explained.
Mike admits that he can't explain it, but he doesn't want to make a "rush to judgment" that could cause him to question the validity of the strange conversion he experienced five years ago.
Wierwille's original statement was this, "As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supercedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world."
My question is this, "In what way do these kingdoms supercede each other, such that their supercession can be used as an illustration of how the supernatural world supercedes the natural world?"
In other words, Wierwille is purporting in this statement to be teaching us something about the supercession of worlds. Exactly *what* does it teach? Can you answer that, Mike? Or seaspray? or cyasurfin?
Since the book of Hebrews appears to be resuscitated from among the tattered remnants, let's look at Hebrews 5:12-14,
12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 "For every one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
To put it into the vernacular,
"For truly, when you aught to be teachers by this time, you need somebody to teach you again what are the primary elements of the Word of God. You need to go back to drinking milk instead of eating solid food. For everyone who can only drink milk is unskilled in the Word of Righteousness, because he's just like an infant. But solid food is for the fully grown, those who on account of practice have their 5-senses exercised toward discrimination of good and of evil."
What's interesting about these verses is the truth that they are the only place in the Word of God where the word we would translate "5-senses" occurs. We know from Peters' "Greek Philosophical Terms" that "5-senses world" comes from "kosmos aisthetos" (we can't know from the Word of God because the phrase "5-senses world" doesn't occur in it). The word "aistheterion" occurs in Hebrews 5:14, the one and only time it, or any of its cognates, appears. One use, and one use only, of "5-senses".
And what do we learn from this one and only use? Do we learn that there is a "5-senses world"? No.
Do we learn that everything that comes to us through our 5-senses is "factual" instead of "true"? Nope. The words "fact" and "factual" never even appear in the Word of God.
Do we learn that the 5-senses are *always* unreliable? Quite the contrary. We learn that it is by exercising our 5-senses through practice toward telling the difference between good and evil that we mature as Christians!
We don't become capable of eating the solid food of the Word by trusting an alien spirit who tells us that there is a "spiritual" meaning that contradicts the 5-senses meaning of the words as written.
We become capable of eating the solid food of the Word by building a habit of using our 5-senses to distinguish between what's good, and what's evil. The word "good" in Hebrews 5:14 is "kalon", the same as the word "good" in I Thessalonians 5:21. We are to use our 5-senses to "prove all things".
Love,
Steve
P.S. - The Word of God never uses the word "oikonomia", translated as "stewardship" or "administration", to indicate "a period of time"
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mj412
I do no think so , I do not believe the only people preparded for Gods work are the people who master pfal .
Or even read it.
We Serve the Lord Mike a Risen Christ for mankind, not one another that is YOUR gig. Jesus asks us to love one another and serve in the capacity of obeying His instructions in our life.
those last two paragraghs of yours read like your so special and fined tuned and Needed by God He just cant go on with out these pfal grads clinging to the only hope left for mankind.
And you the faithful leader holding strong for the good of mankind.
alot of drama there ! lol
Your saying to get all nine all the time pfal is the only answer every other christian or spiritual avenue to God is a lesser.
You have truly made pfal your God.
My God is not that tiny and unable to achieve for His people. MY God does not respect only those who "master pfal" above anyone eles with abilities to Worship HIM which is what He wants from His children .
Jesus says Seek and He will answer and I see no small print on the bottom of the page that says but if you take pfal your even better.
Mike it is what only you believe, which is fine but even the author of pfal would not agree with you on this idea. that makes me upset because you use others and the idea that it comes from a place of serving and it isnt serving the Lord in the least.
I do not think asking someone to read pfal is a bad thing, I think you have made it to much in your life to the point you can not even work with the holy spirit that lives and breathes in each born again christian unless you LIMIT it to being a grad of a class that was really quite simple bible verses that most understand by the age of twelve.
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vickles
very well said mj. You know mike I have to say that in your writings you believe that pfal books are the only way to go. That you can't receive any of the manifestations unless you master pfal. Wow that is really big mike. For you to have that much responsibility in sharing that with us all. You are a savior. You will reap great benefits in heaven as you are now. Your life must be very grand with all the revelation you get and all the people gathering around you to hear you. We are all honored by your presence. It is so wonderful for you to be able to 'see' things we can not see and to understand vpw's writings. Wow, to be able to see the secret passages that vpw wrote is something else. And for you to have such happiness in life finding all these things to share with us is really awsome. NOT!!!!!
Mike, you know what I don't like about pfal books? They are written to us from vpw that are works of others and they are written to us as if we are little children. Like he was our father or something. Like we don't know anything and have to have his guidance. You have a mind mike, a wonderful intelligence that if you worked the Word and not the books you would find greatness in it all. You know if vpw was so great and was our savior for our times don't you think it would have been written to us in the bible for us to see? It could read something like this. 'In years later there will be no belief and there will come a man to show you the ways of the Lord. Believe on him for he shall guide the way for you.' Or something like that. Nothing. Zilcho. It talks a lot in the Word about false prophets. It talks about wolves in sheeps clothing. There are a lot of passages about believers being deceived to think of different beliefs that are Godly. But not one passage referring to vpw. It talks about Jesus Christ. It talks about how getting to know Him you will know the Father. It doesn't say anything about a man coming into our lives and getting to know Him and thereby getting to know the Father.
But I guess after five years of just pfal it would be hard for you to admit you might be wrong.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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