Yepper- It happened to me and it kept happening on and off for a ear....Do feel alone. Im so glad you brought it up..I dont feel alone. I dont know why it came up that way.Was my subconsious associating with something that felt awkward in the mix?....Is it trust?.....I dont know, but I know its false. I always tryed to clear my mind so I could keep the bad houghts from entering in....I know i Have a good heart so it was very unsettling to me.
It's very important for us who were in TWI to remember just how good VPW was at one thing: alienating us from everything that wasn't HIM. We were efficiently alienated from our families, our old denominations, our loyalty to our professions (or just our jobs!), our old friends, and even our standards of keeping our word to people who weren't involved in TWI. If we had a bargain with somebody who wasn't in TWI, it was okay to ignore that bargain - that was the extent to which we were alienated.
Yes, sometimes I still feel this way. But then I remind myself that I was manipulated into feeling that way by a master manipulator, back when I was too young to know the difference, or have sufficient defenses against it.
To the extent that we still allow ourselves to remain inexplicably alienated from those from whom it is not healthy to feel such alienation, we are still allowing VPW to control us.
Just that thought, alone, is often enough to make me "get up from the fire pit" so to speak, and go mingle with the crowd. Anyways, many of the folks in the crowd are really nice and interesting people, aren't they?
I don't know whether this will help, NoLonger, but I do know that you don't deserve to feel alone in a crowd of sweet people who want you to feel included.
nolongerlurking...You say you felt alienated from them because they were not "living the word"...and that you "knew better" and that you were "not like them"...
...You leave out the specifics as to what they were actually doing (or not doing) to make you feel that way.
If they were doing things that were illegal or immoral or were just crude and nasty...it's only natural for a Christian to feel that way... but if that's not the case...sometimes in life's situations, we discover that our personalities and lifestyles don't fit in with the people we are around...and there's nothing wrong with that.
I'm not sure what you mean by "ruining your life"...I wouldn't stop attending church because my friends have different belief systems and different lifestyles...I think it's better to be true to yourself and not worry about being "like them".
I have numerous friends and associates that have vastly different belief systems and lifestyles than my own...but it doesn't bother me. If they are decent people, I accept them for who they are and relate to them where I can. I look for the common ground.
Life can be very interesting at times when we open ourselves to different types of people and different experiences...I'm sure all these folks have good qualities that you can focus on...
Twi tried to homogenize us...so we would all be the same. Life's not like that. Be true to yourself but also allow others to be true to themselves.
I think you may be picking up a bit of a spiritual ego with the church you were with - I don't think that quitting al together is the answer - maybe pulling back a little ....
BUT...
The healthy thing is that you realized you might have problem before it REALLY became a problem, if you know what I mean. Like you were getting ready to get your head up your butt before you stopped yourself from going there.
Good job!
I don't think it's something that's exclusive to TWI - its religion, in general, that can bring someone to this.
Just check in here at the Cafe to loose that every now and then!
STRANGELY ALIENATED from them. DISTANCED from them, even from my husband, because the thought occured to me that they were not LIVING THE WORD, that I KNEW BETTER, and that I WAS NOT LIKE THEM.
Needless to say, I immediately stopped going to church for fear of ruining my life. Has anyone else had something like this happen to them? Geesh, I haven't associated with TWI since 1986, nor have I gone to church since then until now. Somebody please tell me what's going on here.
I can relate to you Nolonger and when I see this elitist mindset (yes, initiated in TWI), I quickly get into servant mode. (I should be all the time, but, I am a sinner ya know?) So anyway, I try to see them as Jesus or God would see them. I become, well, more interested in them and less about me. ( I don't think less of me, I just think of me less..)
I recently learned that God does the "renewing" of our minds anyway. NOT ME. But I have to seek His wisdom in those situations, and He always comes through.
What is my job now anyway? Is it to sit on the log? Or is it to give and bless and preach Christ? I kick myself sometimes because I realize that I AM NOT BETTER THAN ANYONE ElSE!
We all come from different backgrounds, and experiences. What if the person I am sitting next to is crying for help, and God wants to work in me to help? I ask myself these questions all the time, and it has changed my life!
God will help you get through this. His desire is for you to be His mouthpiece. If you got energized and enjoyed the fellowship at that church, then, don't give the devil and TWI the pleasure of not going!
Keep doing what God called you to be. "Build up treasures in heaven" too.
Jesus hung around with sinners and he hung with the arrogant priests who believed they had all the answers.
the life of Jesus was surrounded with loving one another, because He knew how much God loves us, His very creation.
I am a polly anna, i believe i know better in some areas of life so i do better.
that isnt wrong it is wisdom. Jesus never joined in with the activities people would get prideful or fall into trouble with.
I also am thankful to god and the bible for the instructions on how life was for Jesus and others who attempt to know who and what and how God is.
Todayas christians none of us have to be good enough for anything, but it isnt a wild and crazy free for all.. use your wisdom , be thankful you do not have sin raking and ruining your life.
sin causes problems other than just what anold liteture may say.. it is ok to use wisdom.
Im not sure what the "church' has done to help you feel you can no longer associate with those who not attend.. but clearly you realize that was never our Saviours position towards people who didnt know God.
Im not ashamed of not being a whore or paying my bills or living a good life without hurting others, i think God recognizes my effects here and some day i may be rewarded for the "good" i have done.
Jesus commands we love one another. He doesnt say if you feel like it or if they live in your part of town, or if they are good or bad He just says love one another .
IM not afraid of loving people, I no longer have the idea i can fix everything or that it needs to be fixed with what i can do in a situation.. for me that is why I have the Saviour as my lord.
I think GrouchoMarx nailed a big deal here - TWI with their infamous group think worked on homogenizing everyone. Group think is a very "safe" place to hang out - everyone thinking alike - so no one is thinking! I also like Bliss' "I don't think less of me, I just think of me less.."...I've experienced the same thing Nolongerlurking...Imho I think it's a problem from our fallen nature. Thinking about Adam & Eve - when they sinned they became alienated from God - and each other. We were made to be social creatures and sin screwed up that aspect as well. I think sometimes that's why we feel alienation or we can't connect with people...
Another thing I wonder about - since it mentions that they would become like gods knowing good and evil - if that meant we were prone to being judgmental towards others...And so people became self-centered and ego-centric. That's why I like Bliss' words of wisdom - instead of thinking less of myself or some kind of false humility - I should spend less time thinking about me and more time thinking about the other person - in a good way - not being judgmental - but to learn more about them, how I can serve them, bless their life. And that goes along the lines of what Pond was talking about - loving people - not trying to fix them - or thinking something needs to be fixed - we'll let our Lord worry about that.
Re:"I looked over at everyone and felt STRANGELY ALIENATED from them. DISTANCED from them, even from my husband, because the thought occured to me that they were not LIVING THE WORD, that I KNEW BETTER, and that I WAS NOT LIKE THEM."
I'm not so sure that this isn't - at least partially - a function of your age and gender.
At least, I've had more than my fill of such attitudes directed at me since the women in my life have been moving into middleage. Is it all a coincidence? Maybe so.
Still, for what it's worth, might I suggest that you don't cut off your lines of communication - the "open and honest" variety - from those that are near and dear? Not saying that you would, but it has been known to happen...
Just to clairfy a few things. My spouse and band mates/spouses/girlfriends were not doing anything bad or immoral in any way shape or form. It was a BBQ. People were drinking beer/cocktails, but nobody overly so. It was just good clean fun. My feeling of separation came from the fact that everyone there wasn't a "like minded Christian". Sound familiar?
Also, the church that I had been attending was very much of a "soul-winning" mindset. They weren't rabid like TWI, but their goal was/is to win souls to Christ. They are very much a church on a mission.
I think what was happening was that I started to get back into the homogenized thinking pattern, and the "be ye not unequally yolked" believing. And, I do not want that in my life. So I ran for the door.
Not to worry. I think you just had a temporary lapse. Seems you identified it pretty quickly which is the main thing. However, I doubt leaving that church and running for the door is the solution, since that church does not seem to be the actual problem. Your description makes it seem like a pretty good church.
Waybrain? Could be ... But maybe it is just something within yourself that needs to be addressed. Spiritual highmindedness maybe? That is not unique to TWI, it happens to a lot of us Christians at times no matter where we attend church or felloswhips.
Remember, it is only through Christ and what he accomplished that any of us Christians stand worthy before God.
Why not go back to that church and speak to the pastor? Tell him/her what happend - what you were thinking. Why you left. See what kind of feedback you get. If it is a good church they will probably be able to help you. I bet they are concerned and wondering what happend to you.
Something I have finally learned...or unlearned, really...
Church is not supposed to be something we give our all and all to...it's supposed to be where we go to get a dose of whatever we need a dose of at the time...spiritually, that is...then we go to our own lives and LIVE what we know to live.
I've likened church to a hospital before...and now I see that more and more clearly.
I don't 'love' everybody in the hospital. I don't tell every patient and every nurse and every orderly and every aide everything about me. I'd sue the chit out of the hospital if they handled my case in any other manner than strictly private...so the professionals at the hospital don't go around talking about my case to other patients or even other professionals not specifically assigned to me. If I have had surgery, they don't put me on the maternity ward. If I have had a baby, they don't put me on the cancer floor. Not only would I not get the care I need, but I would feel totally alienated from all of the other patients.
And OMG!!!!! I would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS think about going around the hospital and figuring out which patient was 'living right' and deserved treatment and which patient was 'living off' and didn't deserve treatment but, instead, deserved my judgmental condemnation. Even when I was in twi and in the hospital, that thought never even crossed my mind.
BUT...
That's exactly how twi taught us to handle not being spiritually perfect.
And it's just plain evil.
BUT...
What twi taught is very insidious...it sneaks up on us and bites us in the behind. I have no doubt that you are not the type of person to snub people in a hospital...and that you are not the type of person to snub people in spiritual need. So I'd have to say that what you described is certainly a twi leftover thought pattern. IMO.
Just some thoughts that help me a whole lot....don't know if they'll help you...but do know that twi taught us to be spiritual snobs...which made us lower than low in the end.
Also, the church that I had been attending was very much of a "soul-winning" mindset. They weren't rabid like TWI, but their goal was/is to win souls to Christ. They are very much a church on a mission.
I think the concept of soul winning is a problem and feeds into the stuff the way taught us. It presumes that:
1. Some people are saved/won/righteous whatever and some aren't.
2. And that the ones that are know it and know how the others can be.
3. And that the ones that aren't SHOULD be.
I think those are dangerous beliefs and logically consistent with the worst kinds of fundamentalism. Most belief systems don't take their beliefs as far as say people who murder doctors for performing abortions, or the Jews who murder other Jews for not being radical enough or the muslims who murder people for being US citizens. But the foundations of justifying those actions are in the concept of "we are god's people, you're not and you should be."
I think it's a sign of your mental health that you noticed how you were feeling and realized it's a problem.
But that's the very heart of orthodox Christianity. The Great Commission. Word over the world. Saving the "lost". Saving them from what? From burning in Hell for ever and ever because they're not Christians. Yeah, I agree with you.. it gets non-believers boiled in oil for rejecting The Christ®. Dangerous stuff. But Christians today aren't nearly as bad about it like they used to be. It's the Muslims who are getting all the bad press over it today.
Geeze... which is worse you think? Being dropped slowly into boiling oil by a Catholic Lord High Inquisitor or having your head slowly cut off with a not so sharp scimiter by a Sunni Muslim? Decisions decisions. Religions..
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likeaneagle
Yepper- It happened to me and it kept happening on and off for a ear....Do feel alone. Im so glad you brought it up..I dont feel alone. I dont know why it came up that way.Was my subconsious associating with something that felt awkward in the mix?....Is it trust?.....I dont know, but I know its false. I always tryed to clear my mind so I could keep the bad houghts from entering in....I know i Have a good heart so it was very unsettling to me.
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dmiller
NLL -- I wouldn't worry about it too much (if I were you).
I tried out a Baptist church once, and the only time I did *connect* with them,
was at functions outside of the actual church service. :)
(Meebe that had something to do with my fiddle picking, and NOT theology!)
Personally -- I'm thinking I could show up at a Weenie roast,
and feel the same as you do at your functions with your church.
I'm me, and I'll never be anyone else.
I don't try to *fit in*, nor do I ask others to do so for me.
And *Way-Brain* has nothing to do with it (for me).
If you like the group (overall), let them do their *thing*,
while you continue to do yours.
Dunno if that helps, but that's how I look at things. :)
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notinKansasanymore
It's very important for us who were in TWI to remember just how good VPW was at one thing: alienating us from everything that wasn't HIM. We were efficiently alienated from our families, our old denominations, our loyalty to our professions (or just our jobs!), our old friends, and even our standards of keeping our word to people who weren't involved in TWI. If we had a bargain with somebody who wasn't in TWI, it was okay to ignore that bargain - that was the extent to which we were alienated.
Yes, sometimes I still feel this way. But then I remind myself that I was manipulated into feeling that way by a master manipulator, back when I was too young to know the difference, or have sufficient defenses against it.
To the extent that we still allow ourselves to remain inexplicably alienated from those from whom it is not healthy to feel such alienation, we are still allowing VPW to control us.
Just that thought, alone, is often enough to make me "get up from the fire pit" so to speak, and go mingle with the crowd. Anyways, many of the folks in the crowd are really nice and interesting people, aren't they?
I don't know whether this will help, NoLonger, but I do know that you don't deserve to feel alone in a crowd of sweet people who want you to feel included.
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GrouchoMarxJr
nolongerlurking...You say you felt alienated from them because they were not "living the word"...and that you "knew better" and that you were "not like them"...
...You leave out the specifics as to what they were actually doing (or not doing) to make you feel that way.
If they were doing things that were illegal or immoral or were just crude and nasty...it's only natural for a Christian to feel that way... but if that's not the case...sometimes in life's situations, we discover that our personalities and lifestyles don't fit in with the people we are around...and there's nothing wrong with that.
I'm not sure what you mean by "ruining your life"...I wouldn't stop attending church because my friends have different belief systems and different lifestyles...I think it's better to be true to yourself and not worry about being "like them".
I have numerous friends and associates that have vastly different belief systems and lifestyles than my own...but it doesn't bother me. If they are decent people, I accept them for who they are and relate to them where I can. I look for the common ground.
Life can be very interesting at times when we open ourselves to different types of people and different experiences...I'm sure all these folks have good qualities that you can focus on...
Twi tried to homogenize us...so we would all be the same. Life's not like that. Be true to yourself but also allow others to be true to themselves.
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dmiller
Woo Hoo!!
Yessss!!
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year2027
God first
Beloved nolongerlurking
God loves you my dear friend
Yes the Way Ministry believe they had more truth but did they
The real truths come when you look for love in a church not knowledge
And from your story you found it but as all of us know we let what we been taught judge them at times
but we should judge by do we feel love there or not
Now I have not find the right church for me because I get talking then they see differns in my beliefs
then all teaching are wrote to changed me not to help the group so I move on
But this is me
It a hard walk but some here are in churches so it can be done if that what you want but forget what you know and look to see if you feel love there
I hope my words help a little
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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excathedra
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ChasUFarley
LOL - Exie - you beat me to it!
I think you may be picking up a bit of a spiritual ego with the church you were with - I don't think that quitting al together is the answer - maybe pulling back a little ....
BUT...
The healthy thing is that you realized you might have problem before it REALLY became a problem, if you know what I mean. Like you were getting ready to get your head up your butt before you stopped yourself from going there.
Good job!
I don't think it's something that's exclusive to TWI - its religion, in general, that can bring someone to this.
Just check in here at the Cafe to loose that every now and then!
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bliss
I can relate to you Nolonger and when I see this elitist mindset (yes, initiated in TWI), I quickly get into servant mode. (I should be all the time, but, I am a sinner ya know?) So anyway, I try to see them as Jesus or God would see them. I become, well, more interested in them and less about me. ( I don't think less of me, I just think of me less..)
I recently learned that God does the "renewing" of our minds anyway. NOT ME. But I have to seek His wisdom in those situations, and He always comes through.
What is my job now anyway? Is it to sit on the log? Or is it to give and bless and preach Christ? I kick myself sometimes because I realize that I AM NOT BETTER THAN ANYONE ElSE!
We all come from different backgrounds, and experiences. What if the person I am sitting next to is crying for help, and God wants to work in me to help? I ask myself these questions all the time, and it has changed my life!
God will help you get through this. His desire is for you to be His mouthpiece. If you got energized and enjoyed the fellowship at that church, then, don't give the devil and TWI the pleasure of not going!
Keep doing what God called you to be. "Build up treasures in heaven" too.
Just ask HIM.
bless from bliss
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pond
Who really lives "the word" ?
Really??? think about it.
Jesus hung around with sinners and he hung with the arrogant priests who believed they had all the answers.
the life of Jesus was surrounded with loving one another, because He knew how much God loves us, His very creation.
I am a polly anna, i believe i know better in some areas of life so i do better.
that isnt wrong it is wisdom. Jesus never joined in with the activities people would get prideful or fall into trouble with.
I also am thankful to god and the bible for the instructions on how life was for Jesus and others who attempt to know who and what and how God is.
Todayas christians none of us have to be good enough for anything, but it isnt a wild and crazy free for all.. use your wisdom , be thankful you do not have sin raking and ruining your life.
sin causes problems other than just what anold liteture may say.. it is ok to use wisdom.
Im not sure what the "church' has done to help you feel you can no longer associate with those who not attend.. but clearly you realize that was never our Saviours position towards people who didnt know God.
Im not ashamed of not being a whore or paying my bills or living a good life without hurting others, i think God recognizes my effects here and some day i may be rewarded for the "good" i have done.
Jesus commands we love one another. He doesnt say if you feel like it or if they live in your part of town, or if they are good or bad He just says love one another .
IM not afraid of loving people, I no longer have the idea i can fix everything or that it needs to be fixed with what i can do in a situation.. for me that is why I have the Saviour as my lord.
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T-Bone
I think GrouchoMarx nailed a big deal here - TWI with their infamous group think worked on homogenizing everyone. Group think is a very "safe" place to hang out - everyone thinking alike - so no one is thinking! I also like Bliss' "I don't think less of me, I just think of me less.."...I've experienced the same thing Nolongerlurking...Imho I think it's a problem from our fallen nature. Thinking about Adam & Eve - when they sinned they became alienated from God - and each other. We were made to be social creatures and sin screwed up that aspect as well. I think sometimes that's why we feel alienation or we can't connect with people...
Another thing I wonder about - since it mentions that they would become like gods knowing good and evil - if that meant we were prone to being judgmental towards others...And so people became self-centered and ego-centric. That's why I like Bliss' words of wisdom - instead of thinking less of myself or some kind of false humility - I should spend less time thinking about me and more time thinking about the other person - in a good way - not being judgmental - but to learn more about them, how I can serve them, bless their life. And that goes along the lines of what Pond was talking about - loving people - not trying to fix them - or thinking something needs to be fixed - we'll let our Lord worry about that.
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George Aar
NLL,
Re:"I looked over at everyone and felt STRANGELY ALIENATED from them. DISTANCED from them, even from my husband, because the thought occured to me that they were not LIVING THE WORD, that I KNEW BETTER, and that I WAS NOT LIKE THEM."
I'm not so sure that this isn't - at least partially - a function of your age and gender.
At least, I've had more than my fill of such attitudes directed at me since the women in my life have been moving into middleage. Is it all a coincidence? Maybe so.
Still, for what it's worth, might I suggest that you don't cut off your lines of communication - the "open and honest" variety - from those that are near and dear? Not saying that you would, but it has been known to happen...
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nolongerlurking
Just to clairfy a few things. My spouse and band mates/spouses/girlfriends were not doing anything bad or immoral in any way shape or form. It was a BBQ. People were drinking beer/cocktails, but nobody overly so. It was just good clean fun. My feeling of separation came from the fact that everyone there wasn't a "like minded Christian". Sound familiar?
Also, the church that I had been attending was very much of a "soul-winning" mindset. They weren't rabid like TWI, but their goal was/is to win souls to Christ. They are very much a church on a mission.
I think what was happening was that I started to get back into the homogenized thinking pattern, and the "be ye not unequally yolked" believing. And, I do not want that in my life. So I ran for the door.
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Goey
NLL,
Not to worry. I think you just had a temporary lapse. Seems you identified it pretty quickly which is the main thing. However, I doubt leaving that church and running for the door is the solution, since that church does not seem to be the actual problem. Your description makes it seem like a pretty good church.
Waybrain? Could be ... But maybe it is just something within yourself that needs to be addressed. Spiritual highmindedness maybe? That is not unique to TWI, it happens to a lot of us Christians at times no matter where we attend church or felloswhips.
Remember, it is only through Christ and what he accomplished that any of us Christians stand worthy before God.
Why not go back to that church and speak to the pastor? Tell him/her what happend - what you were thinking. Why you left. See what kind of feedback you get. If it is a good church they will probably be able to help you. I bet they are concerned and wondering what happend to you.
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notinKansasanymore
Goey: that was a really good answer.
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CoolWaters
Something I have finally learned...or unlearned, really...
Church is not supposed to be something we give our all and all to...it's supposed to be where we go to get a dose of whatever we need a dose of at the time...spiritually, that is...then we go to our own lives and LIVE what we know to live.
I've likened church to a hospital before...and now I see that more and more clearly.
I don't 'love' everybody in the hospital. I don't tell every patient and every nurse and every orderly and every aide everything about me. I'd sue the chit out of the hospital if they handled my case in any other manner than strictly private...so the professionals at the hospital don't go around talking about my case to other patients or even other professionals not specifically assigned to me. If I have had surgery, they don't put me on the maternity ward. If I have had a baby, they don't put me on the cancer floor. Not only would I not get the care I need, but I would feel totally alienated from all of the other patients.
And OMG!!!!! I would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS think about going around the hospital and figuring out which patient was 'living right' and deserved treatment and which patient was 'living off' and didn't deserve treatment but, instead, deserved my judgmental condemnation. Even when I was in twi and in the hospital, that thought never even crossed my mind.
BUT...
That's exactly how twi taught us to handle not being spiritually perfect.
And it's just plain evil.
BUT...
What twi taught is very insidious...it sneaks up on us and bites us in the behind. I have no doubt that you are not the type of person to snub people in a hospital...and that you are not the type of person to snub people in spiritual need. So I'd have to say that what you described is certainly a twi leftover thought pattern. IMO.
Just some thoughts that help me a whole lot....don't know if they'll help you...but do know that twi taught us to be spiritual snobs...which made us lower than low in the end.
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My3Cents
I think the concept of soul winning is a problem and feeds into the stuff the way taught us. It presumes that:
1. Some people are saved/won/righteous whatever and some aren't.
2. And that the ones that are know it and know how the others can be.
3. And that the ones that aren't SHOULD be.
I think those are dangerous beliefs and logically consistent with the worst kinds of fundamentalism. Most belief systems don't take their beliefs as far as say people who murder doctors for performing abortions, or the Jews who murder other Jews for not being radical enough or the muslims who murder people for being US citizens. But the foundations of justifying those actions are in the concept of "we are god's people, you're not and you should be."
I think it's a sign of your mental health that you noticed how you were feeling and realized it's a problem.
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Sudo
My3cents,
But that's the very heart of orthodox Christianity. The Great Commission. Word over the world. Saving the "lost". Saving them from what? From burning in Hell for ever and ever because they're not Christians. Yeah, I agree with you.. it gets non-believers boiled in oil for rejecting The Christ®. Dangerous stuff. But Christians today aren't nearly as bad about it like they used to be. It's the Muslims who are getting all the bad press over it today.
Geeze... which is worse you think? Being dropped slowly into boiling oil by a Catholic Lord High Inquisitor or having your head slowly cut off with a not so sharp scimiter by a Sunni Muslim? Decisions decisions. Religions..
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