Just so you know, when Dr. Wierwille taught "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ", he was saying that Christ is now physically absent.
He also taught that it's "Christ in You, the hope of glory". Doesn't sound like he was absent there.
But some folks' recollection of that teaching appear to be absent.
Twi's doctrine of the "absent Christ" was the nefarious doctrine that Wierwiile used to place himself in the position of mog (man of God)...
Yes..."the word takes the place of the absent Christ"...and Wierwille was the ultimate authority on what the word said...thus...Wierwille took the place of the absent Christ.
When Jesus was about to depart, he said that he would send a "comforter"...the spirit that would lead us into all truth...he did NOT say that the written word would take his place and that VP Cornfield would be the authority of that word...Wierwille made the whole thing up.
Twi's doctrine of the "absent Christ" was the nefarious doctrine that Wierwiile used to place himself in the position of mog (man of God)...
Yes..."the word takes the place of the absent Christ"...and Wierwille was the ultimate authority on what the word said...thus...Wierwille took the place of the absent Christ.
When Jesus was about to depart, he said that he would send a "comforter"...the spirit that would lead us into all truth...he did NOT say that the written word would take his place and that VP Cornfield would be the authority of that word...Wierwille made the whole thing up.
So,
here's the chain-of-command.
vpw claimed Christ was "absent"-and, contrary to what someone claimed about
vpw claiming Christ was "ONLY PHYSICALLY ABSENT"-
no qualifier was made.
(Kindly produce the quote from the book where vpw said otherwise,
and I shall retract this statement.)
vpw claimed "the Word"-i.e. the Bible- takes the place of the Christ he declared
was absent.
That SAME Word shows the Christ (who may or may not be absent)
claimed that the Comforter would be sent, and the Comforter would be the
authority in all things where Jesus currently was.
So, Jesus said the Comforter would fill in for him, and never said he was "absent."
vpw claimed JC was "absent" and that "the Word" takes his place.
The Word claimed the Comforter takes JC's place,
and that Comforter is the Spirit.
JC-IN that Word- explained his followers wouldn't have rulers, and that those who
meant to be in charge were to be servants.
What did he mean by 'servants'-did he mean that they could rule and reign
and that would be their "service"?
JC demonstrated this.
He washed the feet of his apostles.
That was the most menial, demeaning task given to the lowliest of servants.
Jesus' claims about the position of the leader contradict everything vpw claimed
about leadership.
vpw, of himself, wanted-and got-an airplane, motorcycleS, fancy cars,
3 catered meals a day, a continuous river of alcoholic beverage and a steady
supply of tobacco-
while he said that people should treat his "suggestions" as "orders".
Occasionally, he said leaders had to "serve", but in PRACTICE, his concept
of that was more Lord Over God's Heritage than humble servant washing their feet.
===
So, consider him the sole arbiter on what The Word said-
which he was set up to from the time he called HIMSELF
"THE Teacher"-
or consider him the leader of the organization that explained
HOW it was Christ in you.
vpw defined procedure, and changed it whenever he saw fit.
So, if you want to know in what way you were free to think for yourself-
as in "Christ in you without leadership giving orders-
after 1989, that was nearly impossible,
(unless your local leaders wanted to risk being fired for failing to
sufficiently lean on you),
and thru the 1980s it was possible only face-to-face at the lowest
level (and never as high as the branch coordinator, let alone
Yes..."the word takes the place of the absent Christ"...and Wierwille was the ultimate authority on what the word said...thus...Wierwille took the place of the absent Christ.
Wow, I think you're striving to surpass Wordwolf in the spin department.
Go 'round and 'round the mulberry bush if ya wanna...
The bottom line is that regardless of any specific inflection of voice or twist of words or sin of omission, the general air of twi followers has always been one of smug elitism.
That elitism is a direct result of fully believing that whatever Jesus said, did or knew was transferred to 'believers', therefore 'believers' walk on this earth as Jesus walked, which, in turn, makes 'believers' as Jesus unto this world.
I dare say that not one person who swallowed twi doctrine ever turned to Jesus for His input before speaking in tongues, prophesying, laying on of hands, commanding debbil spurts or whatever. Hell, even when we thought we were doing the will of the Lord when doing such things, we were NEVER allowing Jesus to lead us.
Quite the opposite! It was taught to us that we operate holy spirit...that holy spirit was a gift much like a chain saw or a hammer or a sewing machine...there for our use when we wanted to use it, otherwise sitting idly by waiting for us to come along and turn it on and operate it.
Jesus wasn't even mentioned!
So not only was Jesus left out of the picture, but the one who He sent in His place was nothing more to us than a tool to be used at our will. And this was taught on tape, on video, in books...like it or not.
That elitism is a direct result of fully believing that whatever Jesus said, did or knew was transferred to 'believers', therefore 'believers' walk on this earth as Jesus walked, which, in turn, makes 'believers' as Jesus unto this world.
Golly, that's the basic general idea of "as He is, so are we in the world", and "it's Christ in You, the Hope of Glory". That may be the whole point of Christianity itself, to walk as Christ walked and help people.
The bottom line is that regardless of any specific inflection of voice or twist of words or sin of omission, the general air of twi followers has always been one of smug elitism.
That wasn't the impression I got from the folks I fellowshipped with.
I normally do not get involved in doctrinal discussions, because I have been away so long that I no longer feel capable of having a logical discussion with people like WW, who is much more learned than I. Having also been a victim of some of TWI's practices, I not anxious to jump to defend much about them or defend the postion of anyone who tends to ignore their abuses.
However, I would like to somewhat address the issue of the belief that VPW took Christ out of our TWI lives. I would simply like to quote, for your review, a few excerpts from published materials.
From the Advanced class syllabus, Appendix 1, "The Lifestyle of God's Word"
"God is the logos. Jesus Christ is called the logos, making known God. The Scriptures are the logos, making known Jesus Christ and the Father in writing. So we have the living Word, Christ; the written Word, the Bible; and the preached Word rightly divided by a knowledgeable believer, making known the living Chirst by way of the written Word. You cannot separate Jesus Christ and the written Word.
....the written Word is made to shine with the glory of the divine presence of God through His wonderful Son, Jesus Christ. The only subject of the whole Word of God is Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God. This is the master key of the Word."
My basic problem is the apparent non-adherence to the very words which VP recorded (or rewrote, depending on your point of view. For example:
From God's Magnified Word, Chapter Nine, Page 164
"We don't go around in the community and say, 'Look, I know it all.' No, we don't preach ourselves, we preach Jesus Christ. Of course, God has to communicate His will by way of His Word to a person, and that person has to carry through the knowledge received. Fro example, when we are out witnessing, we are doing the witnessing. But we do not preach ourselves, or another person or an organization; we preach God's Word. We hold forth the Word, which is Jesus Christ."
Think some may have overlooked these words, but my point is the sample of the writings do show that Jesus was not a non-subject. There are many examples throughout the writings that show the intent of teaching that Jesus is the head of the Church, that we have His power, and that we act on His behalf by way of the manifestations.
I understand the overview that the teachings of Christ Administrations vs Grace Administrations cause many to conclude that Jesus is absent in anything substantive from the belly of TWI. However, in reviewing the materials, I just don't see that to be the case.
I normally do not get involved in doctrinal discussions, because I have been away so long that I no longer feel capable of having a logical discussion with people like WW, who is much more learned than I. Having also been a victim of some of TWI's practices, I not anxious to jump to defend much about them or defend the postion of anyone who tends to ignore their abuses.
However, I would like to somewhat address the issue of the belief that VPW took Christ out of our TWI lives. I would simply like to quote, for your review, a few excerpts from published materials.
From the Advanced class syllabus, Appendix 1, "The Lifestyle of God's Word"
"God is the logos. Jesus Christ is called the logos, making known God. The Scriptures are the logos, making known Jesus Christ and the Father in writing. So we have the living Word, Christ; the written Word, the Bible; and the preached Word rightly divided by a knowledgeable believer, making known the living Chirst by way of the written Word. You cannot separate Jesus Christ and the written Word.
....the written Word is made to shine with the glory of the divine presence of God through His wonderful Son, Jesus Christ. The only subject of the whole Word of God is Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God. This is the master key of the Word."
My basic problem is the apparent non-adherence to the very words which VP recorded (or rewrote, depending on your point of view. For example:
From God's Magnified Word, Chapter Nine, Page 164
"We don't go around in the community and say, 'Look, I know it all.' No, we don't preach ourselves, we preach Jesus Christ. Of course, God has to communicate His will by way of His Word to a person, and that person has to carry through the knowledge received. Fro example, when we are out witnessing, we are doing the witnessing. But we do not preach ourselves, or another person or an organization; we preach God's Word. We hold forth the Word, which is Jesus Christ."
Think some may have overlooked these words, but my point is the sample of the writings do show that Jesus was not a non-subject. There are many examples throughout the writings that show the intent of teaching that Jesus is the head of the Church, that we have His power, and that we act on His behalf by way of the manifestations.
I understand the overview that the teachings of Christ Administrations vs Grace Administrations cause many to conclude that Jesus is absent in anything substantive from the belly of TWI. However, in reviewing the materials, I just don't see that to be the case.
(Ducking back into my hole now.)
If vpw had set the example of actually practicing the contents of the books,
then we'd not be having this discussion.
A lot of stuff that looks good or is good was in print here and there.
It sounds soooo Christian and accurate.
The books were often FINE.
However, vpw put the books out, then promptly did whatever he wanted,
sometimes adding a drapery of a holy epithet to it.
lcm TRIED to do it, but lacked the finesse to SUCCEED.
The basic problem of "non-adherence" to what vpw said/wrote
was at vpw's level.
Since, apparently, Oldiesman attended meetings entirely in the books and
never interacted with the meetings were all of us were exposed to
otherwise- SNS, ROA, TOM, weekends at hq, corps, wow, and so on-
his arguments are that the literal contents of the books don't say something,
then it was NEVER TAUGHT and NEVER PRACTICED.
Explains why there's such a complete disconnect between the teachings-
live and on tape-that WE heard, and the ones HE heard.
Quote:" we preach God's Word. We hold forth the Word, which is Jesus Christ."
I DO have a problem with this statement. It is subtle, and sly. WE were BIBLE WORSHIPPERS! Instead of Christ followers. This is how it crept it. If we believe it this way, that JC is the word, therefore, we just speak the word, then, there is the "absense" of the real mediator in heaven for us. We were always told to "follow his example", ONLY.
LCM also spewed MANY times, to never talk to Jesus, "we follow the Word".
The impression was, "they are possessed" those people who "praise Jesus".
So, don't tell me I wasn't taught that he is "absent" from my life. There is a difference between "KNOWING ABOUT'' Christ, and "KNOWING CHRIST". I NEVER had a RELATONSHIP! :(
I had to get down on my knees and ask for forgivness from this ludicris belief I allowed to dominate my "non" thinking. :blink:
I don't have a copy of RTHS any longer, so I can't pull it out and post quotes.
Those of you who do, can and will, are there any quotes that tie Jesus as Lord to 'operating the manifestations'?
I have no recollection of Jesus ever being Lord when twi taught people what to do.
Sure, there were lots of references to Jesus as Lord whenever twi wanted to add validity to their spiel, but when twi want to teach people exactly what to do, twi left Jesus out of the picture.
From my recollection.
But it has been over 10 years since I've even seen a copy of RTHS...and over 20 years since I've read any part of RTHS.
OM, don't EVEN come over here and act all 'christian' and 'godly' and 'jesusy' after the crap you just pulled on the other thread and expect people to take you seriously.
You're a fine, fine example of twi in all it's glawry.
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dmiller
Sadly -- when *roll call* was taken -- He was *absent*. :(
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CoolWaters
Even more sadly is that we were told we had taken His place...and we believed it.
I'm so very sorry, Lord.
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oldiesman
Watersedge,
Just so you know, when Dr. Wierwille taught "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ", he was saying that Christ is now physically absent.
He also taught that it's "Christ in You, the hope of glory". Doesn't sound like he was absent there.
But some folks' recollection of that teaching appear to be absent.
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WordWolf
Watersedge,
just so you know,
there are a handful of people here whose posts consistently demonstrate
a pattern of whitewashing twi.
Things like vpw never committing the felonies he did-
which means all his victims who've come forth are ALL liars
who coincidentally have matching testimonies,
things like just about everything harmful that was ever taught
never actually happened, especially if they weren't in the room
when it was taught,
things like if the official statements and positions of twi said one
thing that sounded right, then they never said or did anything
to contradict it, even if it was also in print, or on tape, or had
hundreds of witnesses
and other things that don't spring to mind at this second.
=======
So, what does that mean in a practical sense?
It means that here-like anywhere else,
you need to carefully evaluate anything said.
Sometimes people are mistaken and in error.
Sometimes people are misunderstood.
Sometimes people sincerely post error, since they honestly think that.
Sometimes people deliberately post what they know is a lie.
We've had posters representing each position.
And every longtime poster has made a mistake at some point,
no matter how hard they tried.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Twi's doctrine of the "absent Christ" was the nefarious doctrine that Wierwiile used to place himself in the position of mog (man of God)...
Yes..."the word takes the place of the absent Christ"...and Wierwille was the ultimate authority on what the word said...thus...Wierwille took the place of the absent Christ.
When Jesus was about to depart, he said that he would send a "comforter"...the spirit that would lead us into all truth...he did NOT say that the written word would take his place and that VP Cornfield would be the authority of that word...Wierwille made the whole thing up.
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outandabout
Taking the place of the absent Christ.....talk about pressure.
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WordWolf
So,
here's the chain-of-command.
vpw claimed Christ was "absent"-and, contrary to what someone claimed about
vpw claiming Christ was "ONLY PHYSICALLY ABSENT"-
no qualifier was made.
(Kindly produce the quote from the book where vpw said otherwise,
and I shall retract this statement.)
vpw claimed "the Word"-i.e. the Bible- takes the place of the Christ he declared
was absent.
That SAME Word shows the Christ (who may or may not be absent)
claimed that the Comforter would be sent, and the Comforter would be the
authority in all things where Jesus currently was.
So, Jesus said the Comforter would fill in for him, and never said he was "absent."
vpw claimed JC was "absent" and that "the Word" takes his place.
The Word claimed the Comforter takes JC's place,
and that Comforter is the Spirit.
JC-IN that Word- explained his followers wouldn't have rulers, and that those who
meant to be in charge were to be servants.
What did he mean by 'servants'-did he mean that they could rule and reign
and that would be their "service"?
JC demonstrated this.
He washed the feet of his apostles.
That was the most menial, demeaning task given to the lowliest of servants.
Jesus' claims about the position of the leader contradict everything vpw claimed
about leadership.
vpw, of himself, wanted-and got-an airplane, motorcycleS, fancy cars,
3 catered meals a day, a continuous river of alcoholic beverage and a steady
supply of tobacco-
while he said that people should treat his "suggestions" as "orders".
Occasionally, he said leaders had to "serve", but in PRACTICE, his concept
of that was more Lord Over God's Heritage than humble servant washing their feet.
===
So, consider him the sole arbiter on what The Word said-
which he was set up to from the time he called HIMSELF
"THE Teacher"-
or consider him the leader of the organization that explained
HOW it was Christ in you.
vpw defined procedure, and changed it whenever he saw fit.
So, if you want to know in what way you were free to think for yourself-
as in "Christ in you without leadership giving orders-
after 1989, that was nearly impossible,
(unless your local leaders wanted to risk being fired for failing to
sufficiently lean on you),
and thru the 1980s it was possible only face-to-face at the lowest
level (and never as high as the branch coordinator, let alone
territory nor state/limb.)
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oldiesman
I may agree with you if Wierwille said that he (Wierwille) was the head of the church.
But Wierwille taught that Christ is the head of the Church.
Another teaching that seems to be absent, in some folks' memory...
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oldiesman
Wow, I think you're striving to surpass Wordwolf in the spin department.
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CoolWaters
Go 'round and 'round the mulberry bush if ya wanna...
The bottom line is that regardless of any specific inflection of voice or twist of words or sin of omission, the general air of twi followers has always been one of smug elitism.
That elitism is a direct result of fully believing that whatever Jesus said, did or knew was transferred to 'believers', therefore 'believers' walk on this earth as Jesus walked, which, in turn, makes 'believers' as Jesus unto this world.
I dare say that not one person who swallowed twi doctrine ever turned to Jesus for His input before speaking in tongues, prophesying, laying on of hands, commanding debbil spurts or whatever. Hell, even when we thought we were doing the will of the Lord when doing such things, we were NEVER allowing Jesus to lead us.
Quite the opposite! It was taught to us that we operate holy spirit...that holy spirit was a gift much like a chain saw or a hammer or a sewing machine...there for our use when we wanted to use it, otherwise sitting idly by waiting for us to come along and turn it on and operate it.
Jesus wasn't even mentioned!
So not only was Jesus left out of the picture, but the one who He sent in His place was nothing more to us than a tool to be used at our will. And this was taught on tape, on video, in books...like it or not.
No lordship of Jesus at all.
We were taught to be a lord unto our own will.
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oldiesman
Golly, that's the basic general idea of "as He is, so are we in the world", and "it's Christ in You, the Hope of Glory". That may be the whole point of Christianity itself, to walk as Christ walked and help people.
That wasn't the impression I got from the folks I fellowshipped with.
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CoolWaters
Now you're arguing with yourself OM.
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topoftheworld
I normally do not get involved in doctrinal discussions, because I have been away so long that I no longer feel capable of having a logical discussion with people like WW, who is much more learned than I. Having also been a victim of some of TWI's practices, I not anxious to jump to defend much about them or defend the postion of anyone who tends to ignore their abuses.
However, I would like to somewhat address the issue of the belief that VPW took Christ out of our TWI lives. I would simply like to quote, for your review, a few excerpts from published materials.
From the Advanced class syllabus, Appendix 1, "The Lifestyle of God's Word"
"God is the logos. Jesus Christ is called the logos, making known God. The Scriptures are the logos, making known Jesus Christ and the Father in writing. So we have the living Word, Christ; the written Word, the Bible; and the preached Word rightly divided by a knowledgeable believer, making known the living Chirst by way of the written Word. You cannot separate Jesus Christ and the written Word.
....the written Word is made to shine with the glory of the divine presence of God through His wonderful Son, Jesus Christ. The only subject of the whole Word of God is Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God. This is the master key of the Word."
My basic problem is the apparent non-adherence to the very words which VP recorded (or rewrote, depending on your point of view. For example:
From God's Magnified Word, Chapter Nine, Page 164
"We don't go around in the community and say, 'Look, I know it all.' No, we don't preach ourselves, we preach Jesus Christ. Of course, God has to communicate His will by way of His Word to a person, and that person has to carry through the knowledge received. Fro example, when we are out witnessing, we are doing the witnessing. But we do not preach ourselves, or another person or an organization; we preach God's Word. We hold forth the Word, which is Jesus Christ."
Think some may have overlooked these words, but my point is the sample of the writings do show that Jesus was not a non-subject. There are many examples throughout the writings that show the intent of teaching that Jesus is the head of the Church, that we have His power, and that we act on His behalf by way of the manifestations.
I understand the overview that the teachings of Christ Administrations vs Grace Administrations cause many to conclude that Jesus is absent in anything substantive from the belly of TWI. However, in reviewing the materials, I just don't see that to be the case.
(Ducking back into my hole now.)
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WordWolf
If vpw had set the example of actually practicing the contents of the books,
then we'd not be having this discussion.
A lot of stuff that looks good or is good was in print here and there.
It sounds soooo Christian and accurate.
The books were often FINE.
However, vpw put the books out, then promptly did whatever he wanted,
sometimes adding a drapery of a holy epithet to it.
lcm TRIED to do it, but lacked the finesse to SUCCEED.
The basic problem of "non-adherence" to what vpw said/wrote
was at vpw's level.
Since, apparently, Oldiesman attended meetings entirely in the books and
never interacted with the meetings were all of us were exposed to
otherwise- SNS, ROA, TOM, weekends at hq, corps, wow, and so on-
his arguments are that the literal contents of the books don't say something,
then it was NEVER TAUGHT and NEVER PRACTICED.
Explains why there's such a complete disconnect between the teachings-
live and on tape-that WE heard, and the ones HE heard.
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bliss
Quote:" we preach God's Word. We hold forth the Word, which is Jesus Christ."
I DO have a problem with this statement. It is subtle, and sly. WE were BIBLE WORSHIPPERS! Instead of Christ followers. This is how it crept it. If we believe it this way, that JC is the word, therefore, we just speak the word, then, there is the "absense" of the real mediator in heaven for us. We were always told to "follow his example", ONLY.
LCM also spewed MANY times, to never talk to Jesus, "we follow the Word".
The impression was, "they are possessed" those people who "praise Jesus".
So, don't tell me I wasn't taught that he is "absent" from my life. There is a difference between "KNOWING ABOUT'' Christ, and "KNOWING CHRIST". I NEVER had a RELATONSHIP! :(
I had to get down on my knees and ask for forgivness from this ludicris belief I allowed to dominate my "non" thinking. :blink:
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watersedge
WOW
and i hate capitals
i had no earthly idea how diverse this topic would be. as i said earlier
who can determine what is in one's soul
personally i believe jesus to have spoken the truth with his entire being
as far as i know he is the only one who gave his life freely for his
beliefs.......no coercion needed
he trusted in the truth that god spoke, orally and written
and acted on that trust. his reward is plain to see
jesus is not absent or away, he is here, alive in millions now
as he was alive in millions before us
that to me seems present in active duty, always here and now
for the life of me i cannot conceive of anyone thinking that truth is in the hand of a man
born in corruption, myself included. truth was born on this earth with the birth of jesus
he died and truth lived past his death . for me god brought truth back to life eternal when
jesus was raised and his truth cannot be corrupted by anything
thanks for putting up with this diatribe
may the truth live in you
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CoolWaters
I don't have a copy of RTHS any longer, so I can't pull it out and post quotes.
Those of you who do, can and will, are there any quotes that tie Jesus as Lord to 'operating the manifestations'?
I have no recollection of Jesus ever being Lord when twi taught people what to do.
Sure, there were lots of references to Jesus as Lord whenever twi wanted to add validity to their spiel, but when twi want to teach people exactly what to do, twi left Jesus out of the picture.
From my recollection.
But it has been over 10 years since I've even seen a copy of RTHS...and over 20 years since I've read any part of RTHS.
I could be recalling incorrectly.
GASP.
:blink: :unsure:
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oldiesman
I know we prayed in the name of Jesus Christ all the time.
"In the name of our living lord and savior, Jesus Christ"
Is that leaving him out of the picture or suggesting his absence?
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CoolWaters
OM, don't EVEN come over here and act all 'christian' and 'godly' and 'jesusy' after the crap you just pulled on the other thread and expect people to take you seriously.
You're a fine, fine example of twi in all it's glawry.
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oldiesman
Ya don't have to answer the question, I still like ya :)
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CoolWaters
Oh well...you don't answer my questions...and I still love ya...liking you a little less right now...but what's like got to do with it?
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oldiesman
Hey CW, it's FRIDAY
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CoolWaters
You bet your sweet bippy it's FRIDAY...and in just over 5 hours I'm gonna be dancin' to the GGGW tunes!
(BTW...as an aside trivia question...one which you should know, judging by your avatar...where'd the term "you bet your sweet bippy" become coined?)
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oldiesman
I don't know the origin, but vaguely remember it on "Rowan & Martins Laugh-in" :)
Do you remember Judy Carne, she was hot.
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