It is normal to think that individuals are responsible for their own choices and behaviours.
I do not see how twi would be responsible it is still adults making their own choices in life.
Abortion is a medical procedure it is done by licensed professionals by consenting adults.
Distress pressure or manipulation has little to do with who is responsible for adult choices . the old he made me do it excuse doesnt fly as far as some would like.
God gives us an exmple to have as a standard of how we are to love one another in His Son Jesus christ who laid down His life for us all.
if some one says to me shoot this guy or I will shoot you it is my choice.. i either shoot the guy and force another to become a victim or allow myself to die and become a victim the choice is in our own hands.
This is a written medium. One can't get "shouted down". No matter how much someone else writes in opposition to one's opinion, one's own post still stands for all to read.
Challenging the Wierwille/PFAL position is hardly "shouting down".
just because something dies doesnt mean it is murdered or any crime has been comminted.
Obviously, yes. However...
If (and that's a big IF) a fetus is considered biblically to be a human being, and if that life is ended intentionally, then it would at least be a killing; would you agree?
So, what's the definition of murder?
According to Merriam-Webster it is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Generally in our culture intent to kill is what "malice aforethought" means.
Let's assume for a minute that biblically a fetus is a person. Intentionally ending his or her life would be a killing, but would it be murder? So far, I can't tell. The difference in punishment between intentionally killing someone (death) and causing a miscarriage (a fine) could be viewed a difference in intent as easily as a difference in legal status between an adult and a fetus.
it is Sin to be sure. It is an enemy. But it is also what has alot of authority today given to by the first adam .
God is not the ruler of this age, so killing is the name of the game , God not legaly upsurp what man gave satan.
is death wrong? yes.
huge yes.
but it is what happens in sin. that is why God has the whole bible written to help us in our adventurous way out of these circumstances.. such as Fornication and adultry being wrong, and sin against God and the many chapters on the sexual rules and regulations importance of a marriage being Godly etc.
untill the enemy death is destroyed, the legal territory belongs to death.
as far as whether abortion is illegal well it clearly says to leave such matters up to the courts and we decide the punishment(or not) in crimes comminted to one another.
at this point our lawsin America do not consider abortion illegal .
Death is wrong, abortion or killing or crimes is up to the people to decide, (well in this nation anywyas not all some have kings etc.), and we are ordered in Romans 13 to obey the law of the the authoriities we put into place.
God will work with His people to find the best blessing they can have in life, obedience help a great deal in the avoidance of sin but He canl not upsurp the "legal" authority given to satan capable of death.
that is why it is the battle a spiritual battle for the people to follow one or the other.
but it is played out in a real world not some fantasy story, we have decided abortion is legal in our courts so it is not a crime so it is not considered a killing in the sense of punishment.
We also decide we can go into other countries and abolish whole towns and cities and consider the soldiers hero's and our protection, that is also not considered illegal or a killing capable of any punishment.
We have lots of laws and structures tha ok a killing, cops , self defense , food . The death penalty is endorsed by God, and what is crime against one another is up to the people to decide by the authority first adam gave then in Romans 13 we put into place.
you know we do not out law death we can not. YET . death is Gods enemy.
as far as how we deal with tresspasses and issues ijnvoling dealing with all that this contest means in our life God has always given us much freedom and free will choices for our own selves. because He loves us.
I'm not sure I'm following you...here's a few observations and questions...
killing is quite common in the bible.
now we can ask really is kiling wrong?
it is Sin to be sure. It is an enemy.
Okay, I’m with you there
But it is also what has alot of authority today given to by the first adam .
God is not the ruler of this age, so killing is the name of the game , God not legaly upsurp what man gave satan.
So, you’re saying that God is against sin (obviously) including killing, but that he’s not going to do anything about it because Adam gave his authority to Satan (I don’t believe that that’s necessarily the case. I don’t know if Wierwille’s take on “The Lord of this world etc is correct – but I’ll proceed as if it is for the sake of argument)
is death wrong? yes.
huge yes.
Okay, still following
but it is what happens in sin. that is why God has the whole bible written to help us in our adventurous way out of these circumstances.. such as Fornication and adultry being wrong, and sin against God and the many chapters on the sexual rules and regulations importance of a marriage being Godly etc.
untill the enemy death is destroyed, the legal territory belongs to death.
I think the Old Testament at least is doing more than helping us “in our adventurous way”; there are punishments and prohibitions against all manner of behavior. The territory is far from being conceded to “death”. Even assuming that Satan has the lordship, Israel supposedly was different to an extant, separate from “the nations” and under God’s law.
I don’t think that you’re making your case here.
as far as whether abortion is illegal well it clearly says to leave such matters up to the courts and we decide the punishment(or not) in crimes comminted to one another.
I disagree with you here. Here’s why:
Exodus 21:22-23 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life
Whether it is illegal is not up to the courts, clearly or not. The illegality (or sinfulness if you will) is decided by the bible, by God, the punishment is decided by the judges.
at this point our lawsin America do not consider abortion illegal .
You are correct
Death is wrong, abortion or killing or crimes is up to the people to decide, (well in this nation anywyas not all some have kings etc.), and we are ordered in Romans 13 to obey the law of the the authoriities we put into place.
You are correct about following what “the people” decide in the form of laws, except when that law goes against the bible. What’s that verse in Acts that’s ays “We ought to obey God rather than men”?
God will work with His people to find the best blessing they can have in life, obedience help a great deal in the avoidance of sin but He canl not upsurp the "legal" authority given to satan capable of death.
You are correct about following what “the people” decide in the form of laws, except when that law goes against the bible. What’s that verse in Acts that’s ays “We ought to obey God rather than men”?
Edited by Oakspear
that is why it is the battle a spiritual battle for the people to follow one or the other.
but it is played out in a real world not some fantasy story, we have decided abortion is legal in our courts so it is not a crime so it is not considered a killing in the sense of punishment.
It’s very clear what our country thinks through it’s laws, but the original question was “what does God think?
We also decide we can go into other countries and abolish whole towns and cities and consider the soldiers hero's and our protection, that is also not considered illegal or a killing capable of any punishment.
We have lots of laws and structures tha ok a killing, cops , self defense , food . The death penalty is endorsed by God, and what is crime against one another is up to the people to decide by the authority first adam gave then in Romans 13 we put into place.
Very good point. Killing is sanctioned by God in many circumstances. An argument might be made that this indicates an immoral God. But that’s an argument for another time.
The God of Israel commands the killing of a town full of “unbelievers” – that’s apparently okay. But what does this merciful God say about abortion. It’s obvious from the penalties attached to certain kinds of killing in Exodus 21 that not all killing is okay with God. Which category does abortion fall under?
you know we do not out law death we can not. YET . death is Gods enemy.
and no one is claiming that we can
as far as how we deal with tresspasses and issues ijnvoling dealing with all that this contest means in our life God has always given us much freedom and free will choices for our own selves. because He loves us.
and no one is claiming that we can
Edited by Oakspear
…I may be getting nit-picky but I think talking about the legality of abortion, philosophizing over the jurisdiction of death and obedience to the laws of the land - is getting off track with Twinot's thread-starter which I have copied below:
Twinot
I did a search of the forum on this subject and did not come up with any discussion on what God says on the subject.
This is one of those subjects I've taken a hard look at and still feel uneasy about. I know what VP taught that it's not a human being until it breaths on its own, therefore abortion is not murder. I wanted to ask what those of you who post here have seen in the bible on this subject.I am not interested in personal opinion but rather what God has to say.
The way I understand Twinot's questions is that our discussion should explore what the Bible says about abortion. And since there appears to be no explicit statements in the Bible on the subject – I would assume one of the next best things to do would be to explore the Bible on topics that would have a direct bearing on the issue – perhaps asking:
When does a fetus become a human being?
What defines a human being? Or, what does it mean to be human?
What is the soul?
What is the image of God?
What is the relationship if any of the soul and/or image of God with a fetus?
And of course – in honoring Twinot's stipulation – Scriptural references should be used as the basis for the discussion.
Pond - I may be wrong - but the logic is getting dangerously close to saying that if our government suports abortion, then so does God. And if and when our government makes abortion illegal - well then God will be against it as well.
If this is what you are saying ( and I said IF) then it seems too close to the cart driving the horse. God decides what is and is not sin. We here on earth are striving to find His ways and obey them. (At least a lot of us are)
well many many many accounts of people dying in the name of obeying God.
Jesus Christ being the main one of course.
If i chose to obey God it is better, and they sat in a jail cell for it!
God did indeed deliver Paul many times so he could full fill His minstry, that was Pauls entire point so he could further the gospel not that he3 was not going to die. circumstance varied and the deliverence varied and sometimes he didnt deliver, the largest being Jesus from death which was His punishment by mans of the people and law of the time.
Vpw never taught Romans 13 was civil law Oak, so your totaly wrong in your assumptions on that. he believed the higher powers were not mans law but something different all together . Read in "order my steps in the word" the red book the last one written by him before his death for his thoughts on what Romans 13 means,it is indeed quite a spin and indeed quite full of error.
John S. has done a very very comphrehensive study of romans 13, look up civil law and Romans 13 on their web-site in Spirit and Truth Fellowship and see if that can educate youself better. and yes it is full of bible verses.
It is a battle for the people, that is what LIFE is . God is our life he is our creator.
We have the Victory in Jesus Christ by His death, and God PROMISE of the resurection!!!
WEll if you believe in Romans 10 and 9 that Jesus is Alive and sitting with God.. then we have a solution in making him LORD in our life.
while here God is bound by his promise and Satan is the author of death, he reigns till Jesus christ will destroy him .
as far as legal contract that is a BIG one and God HONORS HIS word God is a fair God and a JUST God.
He promised isreal a redeemer and he could lie or back down on HIs own words hence Jesus Christ. we can have eternal life death will be destroyed etc... in HIS kingdom when HE reiagn as KING.
WE are not living in HIS kingdome today. We are still in grace.
today whether killing is a murder is in deed up to the courts as it was in Jesus's day. they let a murdere go by the peoples choice that day and Jesus christ was cruxified instead.. do any of you read the bible?
WE our courts which in america is THE people have decided abortion is not killing or illegal. it couldnt get any easier to understand.
Gods enemy is death itself the author of death is Satan. Satan has free reign today people have free will to follow who they chose, it is a CHOICE.
does that answer your question for the thousand times?
sometimes i wonder if any of you even know the bible at all.
If God would deal with us without the GRACE Jesus bought with his life we would all be dead for the sin that is in the world and guess what we still die!!!!! but not forever if we believe Jesus is LORD and God raised him from the dead.
God has to honor the first Adams contract to hand authority over to Satan.
we are killed, murdered... whatever that is why we have a LORD , and a future kingdom.
our choices today dictate how we live. for now and forever in the kingdom. this has been Gods manner since he created us.
The idea of life and death and what is going to live and what is NOT is bigger than a preganate woman you know.. you know it includes my life as well and yours. If you refuse to make Jesus Christ LORD today and BELIEVE what God has promised in His bible , concerning life and death , you will be aborted and just live out your days here and rot. there is a manner to live forever, and it is a Choice ALL must make , as an indivual.
God is very consistent in His promises and rules and legality of all of it.
God does not fight or strive to hurt His people in any manner He is LOVE he loves us , he wants us to chose HIM. But we ahve our own thoughts and political systems and manner of doing things and this is why we need to know Jesus as LORD , who lived here who is a man who has seen the promise of God fullfilled who will indeed help us and rescue us from the tricks and trails we get into while satan has a say so for now.
I have been following this thread, though because by and large it has been a discussion based on Christianity, I have not said much. However, because we are discussing to some extent, O.T. laws, I thought I would add another cent or two.
Judaism, by and large, views the Messiah and original sin very differently from Christianity. Judaism does not teach or believe in "original sin", nor do they view the Messiah as a "spiritual leader who will somehow save our soul/spirit". Rather, the Messiah is viewed as a military/political leader who will restore Israel and the laws. Some branches of Judaism believe that this will only occur when the people here on earth have matured to the point that we are ready for the Messiah. Some believe that we will bring it about by making the world a better place. Some say the Messiah will come when all the Jews on earth celebrate Shabbat (i.e. none of them forsake it). But almost all see the focus of Judaism as being on the here and now and how WE are to live our lives, as opposed to how to get to heaven, how to get saved, etc.
In other words, a large part of the focus of Judaism, regardless of what branch you belong to, is about how can WE make this world a better place to live in. It is accomplished by how we choose to conduct our lives. That would have been the thought processes of the people of Israel. Paul was trained in Jewish Law and wisdom, so it would have been his thought process as well, at least on some level and to some degree.
The Chassidics and some other branches believe that a fetus does have a soul and is alive. Yet, Jewish law teaches that abortion is not only acceptable, but REQUIRED, if it is the only way to save the mother's life. How can this be? Because although it has a soul and is alive, it is not a PERSON until it is born. The soul descends from God. The body is the vessel that holds the soul. But until it is born, the soul is not fully descended into this earth.
Therefore, I would think the question of whether or not abortion is acceptable would be decided based upon how it would or would not make the world a better place. I.E. What would be the consequence to the individual, family, community, society, and world if a given individual had an abortion v had the child. In addition, I agree with the notion that God already knows whether that soul will ever fully descend and become a person or not.
Do you want to talk about life and murder or killing ?
death is Gods enemy that is clear.
everyone alive will now die eventualy because of sin. till the kingdom comes.
the idea of choice is life or death in abortion and in every single persons life.
Is this YOU CHOSE to ABORT your own life if you do not chose to make Jesus Christ Lord.
Does God think it is ok? He wishes only good and Love for us. but it is up to you to decide if YOU will live or die.
that is why he gave us a CHOICE to live or die. forever. We can abort life or we can chose life in all eternity.
Crimes comminted are dealt with in the courts , we are commanded to obey the civil law Romans 13. When Jesus was in the garden being arrested he could have called on many to help him, he obeyed the law of the land and was punished for his crime in a VOTE by the religous people in the court, a murderer was set free that same day by the CHOICE of the people.
abortion is legal in America. God does not force anyone to live or die it is OUR own choice.
it is Sin to be sure. It is an enemy. But it is also what has alot of authority today given to by the first adam .
If killing is Sin and an enemy, shouldn't we avoid it in our choosing?
WE our courts which in america is THE people have decided abortion is not killing or illegal. it couldnt get any easier to understand.
The courts may have decided whether abortion is legal, but they have no say whether it is a sin. If abortion can be shown to be defined as murder from the bible, from God's viewpoint, then we would know it is a sin and should be avoided, whether its legal or not.
Just because Hitler's government made killing people legal, doesn't make it not a sin in God's eyes.
Because although it has a soul and is alive, it is not a PERSON until it is born. The soul descends from God. The body is the vessel that holds the soul. But until it is born, the soul is not fully descended into this earth.
This sounds nice and all, solves a lot of problems,butI can't think of how you could support the idea from the bible without a lot of speculation.Is there even any mention of souls descending?
Not that I can document directly at the moment. If I have time, I can do some research and look for some of the Rabinnical arguments. However, from my studies thus far I would say most of those concepts are more clearly spelled out in the Kabbalah and other oral traditions and not the Laws or Prophets of the OT.
As I acknowledged in my last post, this is by and large a discussion on Christian theology. That is why I have been hesitant to add much to this thread. However, having studied Judaism, including Kabbalistic teachings, AND having a fairly strong background in the NT, I can see the threads of Judaism and Kabballah woven throughout the teachings of Jesus and the writings of Paul, so I added what I did in case it was of interest to some.
I am willing to post some of the Rabbinical arguments if I can find time to do so and if anyone is interested. However, I have no real desire to debate this issue. It is an issue that is very personal and tends to bring up a lot of emotions in people, thereby greatly increasing the likelihood that at some point this thread will turn ugly.
I don't know if this has been posted, but the definition of murder is, according to Websters, "The crime of unlawfully killing a person esp with malice aforethought. . ."
By definition the swatting of a fly is not a murder.
Does love have anything to do with what God says about abortion?
In I Samuel, it says that man looks on the outward apperance, but God looks on the heart.
Can we say all abortions, without exception, are either wrong or right? Isn't every case different? Isn't what is in the heart of the people who are deciding what to do, abort or not, what determines whether abortion is sin or not? Is forcing someone to have a child godly? Is forcing someone to abort a child godly?
I Corinthians says that we can understand everything, and know everything, but if you don't have love you are nothing.
A child may or may not be a human being in utero, but if you are not able to teach the child love, than is it godly to continue the pregnancy?
I have always maintained that it is futile to legislate this matter. There are too many human factors to consider. Also, human nature being what it is - there will always be the people who bend the "rules" to the farthest extent.
This is why the thread was supposed to be about what - if anything the Bible had to say regarding abortion and not opinion about the matter.
We are not supposed to be discussing if it is legal. I think that at THE MOST Rom 13 points to telling believers to obey their governments - but I don't believe that if a government deems - oh let's say genocide (just to come up with an over-the- top example) - legal - that that decree makes genocide ok. It simply states the legality and as such no obedience is necessary. In a case like that you COULD commit genocide if you wanted to - but no one would be commanding you to do so - hence no obedience necessary. Permission does not equal a command.
Now I think that T-bone had some good points as did WordWolf and VeganXTX.
your right Oak I reread and I was wrong you referred to god of this age from weirwille not the romans 13 thing my mistake.
love has to do with everything God does. veganX that is why we have a choice to live or die. Because if He didnt love us he would just dictate and we would be pawns .
discussing if it is legal is what God is all about it is why we have a Redeemer it is why we have death .
If anyone was ever into obedience it was Jesus christ and if anyone ever held to his own laws and rules it is God
God is nothing but legal that is how the entire bible is written .
permission doesnt equal command come on now oh really Jesus was offered the entire world by satan and chose the answer of no. I think your point is silly given the fact for many pages no one has been able to come up with even a verse in the bible that metions abortion. No one in america is commanded by law of our land to get an abortion, it is a option for a medical procedure one can chose or not chose .
God considers all death the enemy , and Sin.
the enemyand sin is bad jerry. lol
If we did not have laws Jesus would have never been sentenced and murdered . yet we did and do and praise God was able to show us a better way when He raised Jesus from the dead. to prove Gods majestic power for all to know!
i would say the thing about it being legal is a mighty big thing.
it is also about a Father who alows His children to have choices and to do the right or wrong thing. because He loves us.
the bible talks a great deal about the "heart" of people, and it doesn not look so good does it?
all bad as a matter of fact.
it is a choice wheich means if you believe it is evil do not do it? and that is the entire bible. that is the call of worship that is being born again.
What God condsiders sin is death its very self.
Jesus Christ bought a redemtion with his own death!
the picture is so huge you guys just cant it or something.
he clearly says in exodus in matters concerning one an another allow the courts to determine what is right and wrong in the LAW>
we are not forced to get abortions in america. it is a choice and a legal choice, as far as God is concerned none of this should be happening no one should die yet because of the chices we make and the sin we live in and do we have a grace time and we are allowed to live. if you will not make Jesus christ LORD of you life you chose to abort your won life to the mere time line we have now.
what do you think God is concerned with? His creation dying at a very young age in a world full of trouble and death and sin ? WEll He hasmore on His plate than a"fetus" it is all of mankind that rejects Jesus Christ as lord that will be aborted and die!!!
he doesnt want any of us to die ever!! He doesnt want His people to abort their own life and die yet he gives us the choice, to accept Jesus christ as lord or not.
Death is the enemy.
Jesus christ took care of the sin issues, thank you Jesus.
do we still sin? um yeah that is why God says to make laws concerning your injustice to one another.
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pond
It is normal to think that individuals are responsible for their own choices and behaviours.
I do not see how twi would be responsible it is still adults making their own choices in life.
Abortion is a medical procedure it is done by licensed professionals by consenting adults.
Distress pressure or manipulation has little to do with who is responsible for adult choices . the old he made me do it excuse doesnt fly as far as some would like.
God gives us an exmple to have as a standard of how we are to love one another in His Son Jesus christ who laid down His life for us all.
if some one says to me shoot this guy or I will shoot you it is my choice.. i either shoot the guy and force another to become a victim or allow myself to die and become a victim the choice is in our own hands.
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Oakspear
This is a written medium. One can't get "shouted down". No matter how much someone else writes in opposition to one's opinion, one's own post still stands for all to read.
Challenging the Wierwille/PFAL position is hardly "shouting down".
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Oakspear
If (and that's a big IF) a fetus is considered biblically to be a human being, and if that life is ended intentionally, then it would at least be a killing; would you agree?
So, what's the definition of murder?
According to Merriam-Webster it is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Generally in our culture intent to kill is what "malice aforethought" means.
Let's assume for a minute that biblically a fetus is a person. Intentionally ending his or her life would be a killing, but would it be murder? So far, I can't tell. The difference in punishment between intentionally killing someone (death) and causing a miscarriage (a fine) could be viewed a difference in intent as easily as a difference in legal status between an adult and a fetus.
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pond
killing is quite common in the bible.
now we can ask really is kiling wrong?
it is Sin to be sure. It is an enemy. But it is also what has alot of authority today given to by the first adam .
God is not the ruler of this age, so killing is the name of the game , God not legaly upsurp what man gave satan.
is death wrong? yes.
huge yes.
but it is what happens in sin. that is why God has the whole bible written to help us in our adventurous way out of these circumstances.. such as Fornication and adultry being wrong, and sin against God and the many chapters on the sexual rules and regulations importance of a marriage being Godly etc.
untill the enemy death is destroyed, the legal territory belongs to death.
as far as whether abortion is illegal well it clearly says to leave such matters up to the courts and we decide the punishment(or not) in crimes comminted to one another.
at this point our lawsin America do not consider abortion illegal .
Death is wrong, abortion or killing or crimes is up to the people to decide, (well in this nation anywyas not all some have kings etc.), and we are ordered in Romans 13 to obey the law of the the authoriities we put into place.
God will work with His people to find the best blessing they can have in life, obedience help a great deal in the avoidance of sin but He canl not upsurp the "legal" authority given to satan capable of death.
that is why it is the battle a spiritual battle for the people to follow one or the other.
but it is played out in a real world not some fantasy story, we have decided abortion is legal in our courts so it is not a crime so it is not considered a killing in the sense of punishment.
We also decide we can go into other countries and abolish whole towns and cities and consider the soldiers hero's and our protection, that is also not considered illegal or a killing capable of any punishment.
We have lots of laws and structures tha ok a killing, cops , self defense , food . The death penalty is endorsed by God, and what is crime against one another is up to the people to decide by the authority first adam gave then in Romans 13 we put into place.
you know we do not out law death we can not. YET . death is Gods enemy.
as far as how we deal with tresspasses and issues ijnvoling dealing with all that this contest means in our life God has always given us much freedom and free will choices for our own selves. because He loves us.
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Oakspear
Pond:
I'm not sure I'm following you...here's a few observations and questions...
Okay, I’m with you thereSo, you’re saying that God is against sin (obviously) including killing, but that he’s not going to do anything about it because Adam gave his authority to Satan (I don’t believe that that’s necessarily the case. I don’t know if Wierwille’s take on “The Lord of this world etc is correct – but I’ll proceed as if it is for the sake of argument)Okay, still followingI think the Old Testament at least is doing more than helping us “in our adventurous way”; there are punishments and prohibitions against all manner of behavior. The territory is far from being conceded to “death”. Even assuming that Satan has the lordship, Israel supposedly was different to an extant, separate from “the nations” and under God’s law.I don’t think that you’re making your case here.
I disagree with you here. Here’s why:Whether it is illegal is not up to the courts, clearly or not. The illegality (or sinfulness if you will) is decided by the bible, by God, the punishment is decided by the judges.
You are correct You are correct about following what “the people” decide in the form of laws, except when that law goes against the bible. What’s that verse in Acts that’s ays “We ought to obey God rather than men”? You are correct about following what “the people” decide in the form of laws, except when that law goes against the bible. What’s that verse in Acts that’s ays “We ought to obey God rather than men”? Edited by OakspearLink to comment
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Oakspear
The God of Israel commands the killing of a town full of “unbelievers” – that’s apparently okay. But what does this merciful God say about abortion. It’s obvious from the penalties attached to certain kinds of killing in Exodus 21 that not all killing is okay with God. Which category does abortion fall under?
and no one is claiming that we can and no one is claiming that we can Edited by OakspearLink to comment
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T-Bone
…I may be getting nit-picky but I think talking about the legality of abortion, philosophizing over the jurisdiction of death and obedience to the laws of the land - is getting off track with Twinot's thread-starter which I have copied below:
The way I understand Twinot's questions is that our discussion should explore what the Bible says about abortion. And since there appears to be no explicit statements in the Bible on the subject – I would assume one of the next best things to do would be to explore the Bible on topics that would have a direct bearing on the issue – perhaps asking:
When does a fetus become a human being?
What defines a human being? Or, what does it mean to be human?
What is the soul?
What is the image of God?
What is the relationship if any of the soul and/or image of God with a fetus?
And of course – in honoring Twinot's stipulation – Scriptural references should be used as the basis for the discussion.
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Oakspear
I second T-Bone's post
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doojable
Pond - I may be wrong - but the logic is getting dangerously close to saying that if our government suports abortion, then so does God. And if and when our government makes abortion illegal - well then God will be against it as well.
If this is what you are saying ( and I said IF) then it seems too close to the cart driving the horse. God decides what is and is not sin. We here on earth are striving to find His ways and obey them. (At least a lot of us are)
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pond
We obey God rather then men?
well many many many accounts of people dying in the name of obeying God.
Jesus Christ being the main one of course.
If i chose to obey God it is better, and they sat in a jail cell for it!
God did indeed deliver Paul many times so he could full fill His minstry, that was Pauls entire point so he could further the gospel not that he3 was not going to die. circumstance varied and the deliverence varied and sometimes he didnt deliver, the largest being Jesus from death which was His punishment by mans of the people and law of the time.
Vpw never taught Romans 13 was civil law Oak, so your totaly wrong in your assumptions on that. he believed the higher powers were not mans law but something different all together . Read in "order my steps in the word" the red book the last one written by him before his death for his thoughts on what Romans 13 means,it is indeed quite a spin and indeed quite full of error.
John S. has done a very very comphrehensive study of romans 13, look up civil law and Romans 13 on their web-site in Spirit and Truth Fellowship and see if that can educate youself better. and yes it is full of bible verses.
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pond
God considers Death in and of itself an enemy.
The author of death is Satan God arch enemy,
It is a battle for the people, that is what LIFE is . God is our life he is our creator.
We have the Victory in Jesus Christ by His death, and God PROMISE of the resurection!!!
WEll if you believe in Romans 10 and 9 that Jesus is Alive and sitting with God.. then we have a solution in making him LORD in our life.
while here God is bound by his promise and Satan is the author of death, he reigns till Jesus christ will destroy him .
as far as legal contract that is a BIG one and God HONORS HIS word God is a fair God and a JUST God.
He promised isreal a redeemer and he could lie or back down on HIs own words hence Jesus Christ. we can have eternal life death will be destroyed etc... in HIS kingdom when HE reiagn as KING.
WE are not living in HIS kingdome today. We are still in grace.
today whether killing is a murder is in deed up to the courts as it was in Jesus's day. they let a murdere go by the peoples choice that day and Jesus christ was cruxified instead.. do any of you read the bible?
WE our courts which in america is THE people have decided abortion is not killing or illegal. it couldnt get any easier to understand.
Gods enemy is death itself the author of death is Satan. Satan has free reign today people have free will to follow who they chose, it is a CHOICE.
does that answer your question for the thousand times?
sometimes i wonder if any of you even know the bible at all.
If God would deal with us without the GRACE Jesus bought with his life we would all be dead for the sin that is in the world and guess what we still die!!!!! but not forever if we believe Jesus is LORD and God raised him from the dead.
God has to honor the first Adams contract to hand authority over to Satan.
we are killed, murdered... whatever that is why we have a LORD , and a future kingdom.
our choices today dictate how we live. for now and forever in the kingdom. this has been Gods manner since he created us.
The idea of life and death and what is going to live and what is NOT is bigger than a preganate woman you know.. you know it includes my life as well and yours. If you refuse to make Jesus Christ LORD today and BELIEVE what God has promised in His bible , concerning life and death , you will be aborted and just live out your days here and rot. there is a manner to live forever, and it is a Choice ALL must make , as an indivual.
God is very consistent in His promises and rules and legality of all of it.
God does not fight or strive to hurt His people in any manner He is LOVE he loves us , he wants us to chose HIM. But we ahve our own thoughts and political systems and manner of doing things and this is why we need to know Jesus as LORD , who lived here who is a man who has seen the promise of God fullfilled who will indeed help us and rescue us from the tricks and trails we get into while satan has a say so for now.
it is such a beautiful life isnt it?
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Abigail
I have been following this thread, though because by and large it has been a discussion based on Christianity, I have not said much. However, because we are discussing to some extent, O.T. laws, I thought I would add another cent or two.
Judaism, by and large, views the Messiah and original sin very differently from Christianity. Judaism does not teach or believe in "original sin", nor do they view the Messiah as a "spiritual leader who will somehow save our soul/spirit". Rather, the Messiah is viewed as a military/political leader who will restore Israel and the laws. Some branches of Judaism believe that this will only occur when the people here on earth have matured to the point that we are ready for the Messiah. Some believe that we will bring it about by making the world a better place. Some say the Messiah will come when all the Jews on earth celebrate Shabbat (i.e. none of them forsake it). But almost all see the focus of Judaism as being on the here and now and how WE are to live our lives, as opposed to how to get to heaven, how to get saved, etc.
In other words, a large part of the focus of Judaism, regardless of what branch you belong to, is about how can WE make this world a better place to live in. It is accomplished by how we choose to conduct our lives. That would have been the thought processes of the people of Israel. Paul was trained in Jewish Law and wisdom, so it would have been his thought process as well, at least on some level and to some degree.
The Chassidics and some other branches believe that a fetus does have a soul and is alive. Yet, Jewish law teaches that abortion is not only acceptable, but REQUIRED, if it is the only way to save the mother's life. How can this be? Because although it has a soul and is alive, it is not a PERSON until it is born. The soul descends from God. The body is the vessel that holds the soul. But until it is born, the soul is not fully descended into this earth.
Therefore, I would think the question of whether or not abortion is acceptable would be decided based upon how it would or would not make the world a better place. I.E. What would be the consequence to the individual, family, community, society, and world if a given individual had an abortion v had the child. In addition, I agree with the notion that God already knows whether that soul will ever fully descend and become a person or not.
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doojable
Ok so back to the original topic........
Please !
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pond
The topic is abortion.
Do you want to talk about a medical procedure?
Do you want to talk about life and murder or killing ?
death is Gods enemy that is clear.
everyone alive will now die eventualy because of sin. till the kingdom comes.
the idea of choice is life or death in abortion and in every single persons life.
Is this YOU CHOSE to ABORT your own life if you do not chose to make Jesus Christ Lord.
Does God think it is ok? He wishes only good and Love for us. but it is up to you to decide if YOU will live or die.
that is why he gave us a CHOICE to live or die. forever. We can abort life or we can chose life in all eternity.
Crimes comminted are dealt with in the courts , we are commanded to obey the civil law Romans 13. When Jesus was in the garden being arrested he could have called on many to help him, he obeyed the law of the land and was punished for his crime in a VOTE by the religous people in the court, a murderer was set free that same day by the CHOICE of the people.
abortion is legal in America. God does not force anyone to live or die it is OUR own choice.
this can not get any more basic. or simple.
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DrtyDzn
The courts may have decided whether abortion is legal, but they have no say whether it is a sin. If abortion can be shown to be defined as murder from the bible, from God's viewpoint, then we would know it is a sin and should be avoided, whether its legal or not.
Just because Hitler's government made killing people legal, doesn't make it not a sin in God's eyes.
Jerry
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DrtyDzn
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Abigail
Not that I can document directly at the moment. If I have time, I can do some research and look for some of the Rabinnical arguments. However, from my studies thus far I would say most of those concepts are more clearly spelled out in the Kabbalah and other oral traditions and not the Laws or Prophets of the OT.
As I acknowledged in my last post, this is by and large a discussion on Christian theology. That is why I have been hesitant to add much to this thread. However, having studied Judaism, including Kabbalistic teachings, AND having a fairly strong background in the NT, I can see the threads of Judaism and Kabballah woven throughout the teachings of Jesus and the writings of Paul, so I added what I did in case it was of interest to some.
I am willing to post some of the Rabbinical arguments if I can find time to do so and if anyone is interested. However, I have no real desire to debate this issue. It is an issue that is very personal and tends to bring up a lot of emotions in people, thereby greatly increasing the likelihood that at some point this thread will turn ugly.
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Oakspear
I was responding to your mention of Romans 13:
and arguing that obeying the "law of the land" was irrelevant to the discussionRight. Starting with a spelling and grammar lesson.Link to comment
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Kit Sober
I don't know if this has been posted, but the definition of murder is, according to Websters, "The crime of unlawfully killing a person esp with malice aforethought. . ."
By definition the swatting of a fly is not a murder.
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VeganXTC
Does love have anything to do with what God says about abortion?
In I Samuel, it says that man looks on the outward apperance, but God looks on the heart.
Can we say all abortions, without exception, are either wrong or right? Isn't every case different? Isn't what is in the heart of the people who are deciding what to do, abort or not, what determines whether abortion is sin or not? Is forcing someone to have a child godly? Is forcing someone to abort a child godly?
I Corinthians says that we can understand everything, and know everything, but if you don't have love you are nothing.
A child may or may not be a human being in utero, but if you are not able to teach the child love, than is it godly to continue the pregnancy?
Is God less compassionate than his children?
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doojable
I have always maintained that it is futile to legislate this matter. There are too many human factors to consider. Also, human nature being what it is - there will always be the people who bend the "rules" to the farthest extent.
This is why the thread was supposed to be about what - if anything the Bible had to say regarding abortion and not opinion about the matter.
We are not supposed to be discussing if it is legal. I think that at THE MOST Rom 13 points to telling believers to obey their governments - but I don't believe that if a government deems - oh let's say genocide (just to come up with an over-the- top example) - legal - that that decree makes genocide ok. It simply states the legality and as such no obedience is necessary. In a case like that you COULD commit genocide if you wanted to - but no one would be commanding you to do so - hence no obedience necessary. Permission does not equal a command.
Now I think that T-bone had some good points as did WordWolf and VeganXTX.
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pond
your right Oak I reread and I was wrong you referred to god of this age from weirwille not the romans 13 thing my mistake.
love has to do with everything God does. veganX that is why we have a choice to live or die. Because if He didnt love us he would just dictate and we would be pawns .
discussing if it is legal is what God is all about it is why we have a Redeemer it is why we have death .
If anyone was ever into obedience it was Jesus christ and if anyone ever held to his own laws and rules it is God
God is nothing but legal that is how the entire bible is written .
permission doesnt equal command come on now oh really Jesus was offered the entire world by satan and chose the answer of no. I think your point is silly given the fact for many pages no one has been able to come up with even a verse in the bible that metions abortion. No one in america is commanded by law of our land to get an abortion, it is a option for a medical procedure one can chose or not chose .
God considers all death the enemy , and Sin.
the enemyand sin is bad jerry. lol
If we did not have laws Jesus would have never been sentenced and murdered . yet we did and do and praise God was able to show us a better way when He raised Jesus from the dead. to prove Gods majestic power for all to know!
i would say the thing about it being legal is a mighty big thing.
it is also about a Father who alows His children to have choices and to do the right or wrong thing. because He loves us.
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DrtyDzn
Good question. Is it the actually act of killing the fetus that God would consider sin, or is it the motivation behind choosing the action?
Without sin in the world we would not have to choose between the lesser of two evils.
Jerry
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pond
the bible talks a great deal about the "heart" of people, and it doesn not look so good does it?
all bad as a matter of fact.
it is a choice wheich means if you believe it is evil do not do it? and that is the entire bible. that is the call of worship that is being born again.
What God condsiders sin is death its very self.
Jesus Christ bought a redemtion with his own death!
the picture is so huge you guys just cant it or something.
he clearly says in exodus in matters concerning one an another allow the courts to determine what is right and wrong in the LAW>
we are not forced to get abortions in america. it is a choice and a legal choice, as far as God is concerned none of this should be happening no one should die yet because of the chices we make and the sin we live in and do we have a grace time and we are allowed to live. if you will not make Jesus christ LORD of you life you chose to abort your won life to the mere time line we have now.
what do you think God is concerned with? His creation dying at a very young age in a world full of trouble and death and sin ? WEll He hasmore on His plate than a"fetus" it is all of mankind that rejects Jesus Christ as lord that will be aborted and die!!!
he doesnt want any of us to die ever!! He doesnt want His people to abort their own life and die yet he gives us the choice, to accept Jesus christ as lord or not.
Death is the enemy.
Jesus christ took care of the sin issues, thank you Jesus.
do we still sin? um yeah that is why God says to make laws concerning your injustice to one another.
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