Medic's Wife --------"You're going to hate me for this-------" I can only speak for myself but I for one certainly don't hate you for having an opinion on such a controversial issue or for speaking what's on your mind. Discussing important issues is one of the functions Greasespot serves.( OK, that and talking about old TV shows and cool guitars) I think most people here welcome a lively discussion as long as it is within the bounderies of the forum rules. Open discussion and disagreement was something that was frowned on( No, make that snarled at) in TWI. It's refreshing to see things from the perspective of someone who comes from a non-TWI background.
it is noble like i said your believe that one should "pick up the slack"
the thing is even the folks able would not be able to have a house full of the type of children that would be born without abortion.
the crack babies and minorities that do manage to survive the pregnancy are troubled for many many years and have issues beyond what any loving normal family could handle. people want white healthy babies.
a a few more billion every year and what would we do?
the parents can not or will not care for them where would they go who would pay for their care and medical expense that lasts an entire life time?
many would be hiv and or disabled mentaly and in some way due to abuse by the parents.. so it would not be like you would have a reward at the end of the road other than a child dying or suffering for life time.
like Galen said he had foster kids he can tell you how difficult it is just to house these kids born with problems beyond most can understand.
we cant house the children that are alive! the foster care system in America sucks and is riddled with abuse.
I think it is great some i should say few will " pick up the slack".
have you seen the slack?
imagine it if abortion was out lawed.
I know my mom was unable to have children IM adopted and i have family members who have great difficulty and some think they will not have kids soo I get your wonder.. but trust us getting pregnate is NOT such a difficult thing for many it is not even a thought it is something that happens without reason, surprise surprise really the bigger issue is how to garuntee one doesnt get pregnate isnt it?
we had a lady here with 9 very disabled kids in foster care, crack alcohol abuse.. and it is common.
teen pregnancy is out of control.
but i do get how you do not get it and how very special your kids are.
my nephew and his wife have four under three and she is due again in nov. (twins) mom is 20 years old.
What I don't understand is what is meant by "mischief" in Exodus 21:22 and 23. No mischief means payment, but mischief means life for life. What is mischief? Does it mean death? And who's death? The mother? The child?
But really, these verses are talking about men striving, and a woman getting hurt. Can anyone use these verses to say if a woman who chooses to end her pregnancy is right or wrong?
I am not in favor of promiscuous sex outside of marriage.
And I am not in favor of using abortion is a birth-control method.
Each time that a 16 yr old girl discovers that she is pregnant, and goes a week finally trying to assess what life lays before her. At that moment, may be the first time that she has honestly assessed her life. Hopefully she knows a mentor whom she trusts and can confide in. Now if she determines that the best course of action, for herself and her future children, would be to abort this fetus. Then I would applaud her, and I would hope that she can learn from the experience to stop being so promiscuous, to straighten out her life.
If an adult woman, finds herself likewise pregnant. And in her wisdom, she decides that the risks are too great, or that she can not provide enough to raise another child, or whatever; Then I would honor her decision, and praise her for at least trying to stop and think about what she is doing.
We have raised foster-children the very hell-spawn demon-children out of control and state-over-seen children with more 'rights' then control. We had a 10-yr old sexual predator, with ADHD, ODD, RAD, and OED. We raised a girl who was routinely raped beginning at 5yr and the state insisted on maintaining visitations with her rapist father in prison. Children who were trained to be quite when their mother was working a trick, and to help grind her pills into powder so she could snort them. We adopted a FAS child.
America has over 150,000 children currently free for adoption, awaiting to meet any adult willing to take them. But Americans would rather fly to Russia or China and buy their children [my niece just did]. And many states will even pay the adoptive family a child-support for taking these children.
No we do not need more children to be dumped into the system.
quote: According to the blue letter bible concordance, the phrase "that holy thing" is the single Greek word hagios - "thing" was added by the translators, and therefore has no authority.
It's been awhile since I read this, but yes the only greek for holy thing is hagios, yet in Bullinger's Lexicon and concordance to the NT he says the word hagios is neuter, hence the word thing.
quote: What I don't understand is what is meant by "mischief" in Exodus 21:22 and 23. No mischief means payment, but mischief means life for life. What is mischief? Does it mean death? And who's death? The mother? The child?
VP did teach that mischief meant the woman dies, in which case the man dies too who caused her death. If no mischief follow means the woman does not die, but in God's view, the woman's life is more important than her "fruit" as I read it.
What puzzles me is when it says according as the woman's husband will lay upon him in verse 22. That leaves a lot to the imagination. I guess the woman's husband can't kill the guy, but he can probably beat him up pretty good.
quote: According to the blue letter bible concordance, the phrase "that holy thing" is the single Greek word hagios - "thing" was added by the translators, and therefore has no authority.
It's been awhile since I read this, but yes the only greek for holy thing is hagios, yet in Bullinger's Lexicon and concordance to the NT he says the word hagios is neuter, hence the word thing.
What? Are you pro life?
Actually I brought it up because I will not take anything as truth because Wierwille said it, not because of a position one way or another on abortion.
For anyone who still has a good lexicon that lists the parts of speech for all words used in the NT: is johniam correct, is hagios is this case the neuter gender? What gender is used in other instances? Is the use of gender significant in this case?
The actual form of hagios in this verse is hagion, and it is modifying the word gennōmenon, translated as "which shall be born". Earlier in the verse, "holy" is in the same form, hagion when modifying pneuma, spirit.
Johniam: I know VP taught mischief was the death of the woman, but I could never make that teaching "my own" as he use to say. Why couldn't the mischief mean the child? A woman's fruit (baby) could depart and live, thus the no mischief. And if the child died, mischief ensued.
And as far as the husband laying upon him, my uneducated guess was always what the husband wanted the other to pay in monetary damages. But I never thought about the husband being able to beat him up!
Pond: Yeah, I was always taught that the men ruled the roost in Moses' time. So, if I was taught correctly, maybe the key to what God says about abortion is directed in how a man rules his house?
I believe there is godly compassion towards the individual in ways I'll never understand. Had my mother aborted after being raped at 15 I'd not be here.
I don't believe it would be right to choose the child over the mother in cases of difficult births. I had such a one, in fact was not to have ever been able to have children, hubby had to sign off on who he wanted the doctors to save (me) as they felt both couldn't be. Our son was born 36 hours later, much to my exhaustion and overwhelming joy.
Not posted by me before. My sister also was raped at a very young age and became pregnant. Without my mother telling her what was happening she took her to a doctor and just before they arrived she explained to my sister what the doctor was going to do and how she was too young to carry a baby. My sister was then taken in and the deed done. For the balance of my sister's life she felt burdened. And when she lost a set of twins, then a boy before she had her 2 sons she felt it was a punishment for having taken a life. My mother carried that plus the fact those extra things they had to do to my sister to enable her to carry her boys full term was what might have introduced the cancer that later took her life.
I believe God is big enough to have exceptions written into his word for us. I just don't know fully how to read it all. But I believe it is a living soul the second it begins forming.
As to scripture, sorry I provided only opinions and experience but felt others had so why not.
Has it occurred to anyone here that God made this a difficult decision for a reason?
I mean, It just might very well be that life doesn't start until the first breath. BUT once a woman has had a child, abortion is not an easy choice. I'm sure any woman that has had an abortion has counselled many to not do it. On some level - this becomes a choice that is far beyond what is technically right.
Not only do you have the beating heart of the child (fetus) at stake, you also have the heart, the emotions, the soul, of the mother.
Now I realize that this thread is about what the Word says. I'm just weighing in here to say that we keep talking about sin, perhaps specifically the sin of murder.
I guess that I'm trying to make the point that we are forgetting that God is concerned with our hearts. There is great sin in guilt and self-condemnation.
No matter what the choice might be - there is also the sin of pressuring a woman to have or not have that abortion. Here I am specifically thinking about all those women that were forced to abort because "after all - it's not really alive."
Lots of ramblings. Hope I didn't derail......
Guilt is a tough burden to bear.
BTW - I did not have an abortion - but I know plenty of women that have and most of them live to regret that decision.
I think some may suffer with the sins you metion bramble and indeed it is a trick of satan himself to burden Gods people with such pain.
IN my previous post I metioned what the real issue is.. and the pressure of sex is also very painful and hurtful and I think an abortion brings it to a point one has to consider how they got to this point of choice in life.
In a healthy Godly marriage abortion is NOT such a huge issue, it is when one is messing in what the world dictates as love and sex that a person has to look at how this pregnancy may have happened in the first place.
and That is very uncorfortable and much denied in this sin tainted sexual society we live in. satan uses it to beat the crap out of Gods beloved.
I know you may have a circle of friends who need to rethink why they made the choice to abort , but given the numbers we have of abortions in America alone I really do think it is that much of a self condemnation or guilt choice for many who are not dealing with the love of God in their heart.
What kind of chhoice was available back then? Did they even have a reliable way to abort a pregnancy? Maybe there were home brewed remedies that could be ingested that were supposed to terminate a pregnancy, but I think a medical procedure would have been pretty risky. That would explain why there is no clear opinion in the word that applies to todays dilema on abortion.
"In Acts 4:30, AFTER Jesus was born, he is called a holy CHILD. In Luke 1:35, BEFORE Jesus was born, when he was in utero, he is called a holy THING! Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child.
I get mildly annoyed seeing those bumper stickers which say 'It's a child, not a choice'. If I had the means or the inclination I might alter the message to 'It's a fetus, not a child'."
"To be fair, when John the Baptist was about to be born it says the BABE leapt in Elisabeth's womb. There. No partial birth abortions. If I could make law, I'd say all abortions must be performed before the end of the first trimester (13 weeks) the only exception being if a doctor concluded that the mother's life would be in danger later than that and that any doctor found to fraudulently sign off on that would permanently lose his med license."
Ok, as to the second, I think JohnIam agrees with almost all of us on the second matter, that John the
Baptist was referred to as a "babe" and not "a collection of cells", so that sometime BEFORE 9 months he
would be considered a baby, which means that he counted as such sometime BEFORE
"his first breath". (Which would mean an abortion at that point would be ending his life intentionally, which
would be murder in the first degree.)
Now, as to the former,
JohnIam said
===========
"In Acts 4:30, AFTER Jesus was born, he is called a holy CHILD. In Luke 1:35, BEFORE Jesus was born, when he was in utero, he is called a holy THING! Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child."
===========
I'd like to proceed.
============
Oakspear:
"According to the blue letter bible concordance, the phrase "that holy thing" is the single Greek word
hagios - "thing" was added by the translators, and therefore has no authority. "
=============
JohnIam:
"It's been awhile since I read this, but yes the only greek for holy thing is hagios, yet in Bullinger's Lexicon and concordance to the NT he says the word hagios is neuter, hence the word thing.
What? Are you pro life?"
=============
Oakspear:
"Actually I brought it up because I will not take anything as truth because Wierwille said it, not because of a position one way or another on abortion.
For anyone who still has a good lexicon that lists the parts of speech for all words used in the NT: is johniam correct, is hagios is this case the neuter gender? What gender is used in other instances? Is the use of gender significant in this case?
The actual form of hagios in this verse is hagion, and it is modifying the word gennōmenon, translated as "which shall be born". Earlier in the verse, "holy" is in the same form, hagion when modifying pneuma, spirit."
================
Ok, it is here that WordWolf joins the discussion....
I've wondered if anyone was ever going to bring that up.
Actually, back in twi-timeframes, I was going verse-by-verse through the Greek on much of the New
Testament. (I had the time.) I did look at this verse, Luke 1:35. It is true that the English calls Jesus
"that holy thing". It also says "replenish" in Genesis, which has nothing to do with the Hebrew meaning
of the word, "to fill". So, we look at the Greek. The most literal Greek I got from Luke 1:35 in that
verse, from the phrase "holy thing", which was the Greek word "hagion", was "Holy One."
That's because the plural of that word, "oi hagioi", is translated as "the saints."
(My Bullinger's Critical Greek Lexicon notes that thus noun was used for "the saints" 61 times, and
"saint" in the singular once.)
This happens in the openings of several Church Epistles, like Romans 1:7, where the word "saints"
in
"to all those who are in Rome beloved of God called saints", the word "saints" is "hagiois".
So Jesus, at the time of "the Annunciation" (Gabriel visiting Mary) was referred to as a "hagios",
and I NOW am referred to as a "hagios". Either we are both a "thing" or we both are NOT.
Basic English places a noun as a person, place or thing. Since I am a person, I am not a "thing",
since I can't be both "person" and "thing" under basic definitions.
(Unless one wants to split hairs and go into different specialist vocabularies in an effort to obscure
the subject, anyway.)
Therefore, since I'm a person or a "holy one" in that expression, so was he.
That's using simple Bible cross-checking: the meaning in Luke 1:35 must agree with ALL usages in Scripture.
And whether one is pro-life, pro-choice or pro-ball player when discussing what it actually SAYS is a nonissue.
Drty Dzn, I agree with what you say. I don't think it was the big controversy it is today. I think they (people in Biblical times) were more concerned with coveting their neighbor's ox. Or wearing clothes with mixed fibers.
What I don't understand is what is meant by "mischief" in Exodus 21:22 and 23. No mischief means payment, but mischief means life for life. What is mischief? Does it mean death? And who's death? The mother? The child?
Mischief is not only life for life. Verses 24 and 25 list more examples of mischief. "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
The woman's fruit departing, whether alive or dead, is more of an indication that the fight has gone too far. The whole chapter is full of rules as to who can beat on who and how badly before they have to pay.
You don't know that. All we know is that shortly before John the Baptist's birth he was a babe, not a thing.
quote: Which would mean an abortion at that point would be ending his life intentionally, which
would be murder in the first degree.)
At WHAT point? Shortly before his birth? or anytime before his birth?
quote: So Jesus, at the time of "the Annunciation" (Gabriel visiting Mary) was referred to as a "hagios",
and I NOW am referred to as a "hagios".
What do you NOW have to do with Jesus in utero?
I'm not really trying to pick a fight with you; as I said earlier, push comes to shove, I think the mother's life is priority over the fetus's. Even in the example of Abigail's friend. Your position on this is not clear.
I have 3 kids. All 3 were born at home with a midwife. Our 3rd had the cord wrapped around his neck several times by the time he got to the birth canal. The midwife caught it and stuck 2 fingers in there and pryed the cord away from his neck so that he wouldn't suffocate when he crowned. I was there.
Knowing what he has grown into, I don't even want to think of the idea of someone drilling a hole in his head at that moment thus ending his life, but I would have preferred that over having my wife die.
"In Acts 4:30, AFTER Jesus was born, he is called a holy CHILD. In Luke 1:35, BEFORE Jesus was born, when he was in utero, he is called a holy THING! Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child.
I get mildly annoyed seeing those bumper stickers which say 'It's a child, not a choice'. If I had the means or the inclination I might alter the message to 'It's a fetus, not a child'."
"To be fair, when John the Baptist was about to be born it says the BABE leapt in Elisabeth's womb. There. No partial birth abortions. If I could make law, I'd say all abortions must be performed before the end of the first trimester (13 weeks) the only exception being if a doctor concluded that the mother's life would be in danger later than that and that any doctor found to fraudulently sign off on that would permanently lose his med license."
Ok, as to the second, I think JohnIam agrees with almost all of us on the second matter, that John the
Baptist was referred to as a "babe" and not "a collection of cells", so that sometime BEFORE 9 months he
would be considered a baby, which means that he counted as such sometime BEFORE
"his first breath". (Which would mean an abortion at that point would be ending his life intentionally, which
would be murder in the first degree.)
Now, as to the former,
JohnIam said
===========
"In Acts 4:30, AFTER Jesus was born, he is called a holy CHILD. In Luke 1:35, BEFORE Jesus was born, when he was in utero, he is called a holy THING! Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child."
===========
I'd like to proceed.
============
Oakspear:
"According to the blue letter bible concordance, the phrase "that holy thing" is the single Greek word
hagios - "thing" was added by the translators, and therefore has no authority. "
=============
JohnIam:
"It's been awhile since I read this, but yes the only greek for holy thing is hagios, yet in Bullinger's Lexicon and concordance to the NT he says the word hagios is neuter, hence the word thing.
What? Are you pro life?"
=============
Oakspear:
"Actually I brought it up because I will not take anything as truth because Wierwille said it, not because of a position one way or another on abortion.
For anyone who still has a good lexicon that lists the parts of speech for all words used in the NT: is johniam correct, is hagios is this case the neuter gender? What gender is used in other instances? Is the use of gender significant in this case?
The actual form of hagios in this verse is hagion, and it is modifying the word gennōmenon, translated as "which shall be born". Earlier in the verse, "holy" is in the same form, hagion when modifying pneuma, spirit."
================
WordWolf:
"I've wondered if anyone was ever going to bring that up.
Actually, back in twi-timeframes, I was going verse-by-verse through the Greek on much of the New
Testament. (I had the time.) I did look at this verse, Luke 1:35. It is true that the English calls Jesus
"that holy thing". It also says "replenish" in Genesis, which has nothing to do with the Hebrew meaning
of the word, "to fill". So, we look at the Greek. The most literal Greek I got from Luke 1:35 in that
verse, from the phrase "holy thing", which was the Greek word "hagion", was "Holy One."
That's because the plural of that word, "oi hagioi", is translated as "the saints."
(My Bullinger's Critical Greek Lexicon notes that thus noun was used for "the saints" 61 times, and
"saint" in the singular once.)
This happens in the openings of several Church Epistles, like Romans 1:7, where the word "saints"
in
"to all those who are in Rome beloved of God called saints", the word "saints" is "hagiois".
So Jesus, at the time of "the Annunciation" (Gabriel visiting Mary) was referred to as a "hagios",
and I NOW am referred to as a "hagios". Either we are both a "thing" or we both are NOT.
Basic English places a noun as a person, place or thing. Since I am a person, I am not a "thing",
since I can't be both "person" and "thing" under basic definitions.
(Unless one wants to split hairs and go into different specialist vocabularies in an effort to obscure
the subject, anyway.)
Therefore, since I'm a person or a "holy one" in that expression, so was he.
That's using simple Bible cross-checking: the meaning in Luke 1:35 must agree with ALL usages in Scripture.
And whether one is pro-life, pro-choice or pro-ball player when discussing what it actually SAYS is a nonissue."
============
JohnIam:
"quote: so that sometime BEFORE 9 months he
would be considered a baby,
You don't know that. All we know is that shortly before John the Baptist's birth he was a babe, not a thing.
quote: Which would mean an abortion at that point would be ending his life intentionally, which
would be murder in the first degree.)
At WHAT point? Shortly before his birth? or anytime before his birth?
quote: So Jesus, at the time of "the Annunciation" (Gabriel visiting Mary) was referred to as a "hagios",
and I NOW am referred to as a "hagios".
What do you NOW have to do with Jesus in utero?
I'm not really trying to pick a fight with you; as I said earlier, push comes to shove, I think the mother's life is priority over the fetus's. Even in the example of Abigail's friend. Your position on this is not clear.
I have 3 kids. All 3 were born at home with a midwife. Our 3rd had the cord wrapped around his neck several times by the time he got to the birth canal. The midwife caught it and stuck 2 fingers in there and pryed the cord away from his neck so that he wouldn't suffocate when he crowned. I was there.
Knowing what he has grown into, I don't even want to think of the idea of someone drilling a hole in his head at that moment thus ending his life, but I would have preferred that over having my wife die.
You got kids, Wordwolf?"
I said "sometime BEFORE 9 months he would be considered a baby"
JohnIam replied "You don't know that. All we know is that shortly before John the Baptist's birth he was a babe, not a thing."
Frankly, I'm amazed someone can read that and say you DON'T know that.
Here's the account-which you YOURSELF CITED.
Luke 1:41
"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost"
Luke 1:44
"For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."
(Greek word 'brephos', which is also rendered "infant" or "young child" elsewhere.)
So, since John was not born yet, he was considered a babe/baby.
(I'm skipping any " 'babe does not mean baby thing' because I try not to get involved in discussions that
are EXCEPTIONALLY stupid.)
What month was he at?
Well, according to Gabriel, 6 months.
Luke 1:36.
"And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren."
So, John the Baptist, at 6 months if not sooner, was considered a baby, which is some 3 months before
"first breath" on the average.
That's "sometime before nine months", so that darn well IS what we know.
SINCE John the Baptist, at 6 months, was considered by God to be a babe and not a "thing", and
therefore a person (a babe is a person, I believe MOST of us can see this without further elaboration) ,
then killing him is like killing any OTHER person, and planning to kill a person and doing so is
Murder in the First Degree, under US Law.
JohnIam then wanted to debate the precise point of gestation this would apply-
but seems not to have agreed that this was the case.
---------
When I pointed out God Almighty (by the mouth of Gabriel in the first place, and the pen of Paul in
the second place) called Jesus and me by the same term-hagios, apparently this drew an exception.
"What do you NOW have to do with Jesus in utero?"
Well, I'll say it again.
We're both people.
God called Jesus a "hagios" when in the womb, at a point BEFORE 6 months.
God called me a "hagios" as I am now.
Therefore, GOD ALMIGHTY has drawn a connection between me NOW
and Jesus THEN.
Since as an adult I am a PERSON and not a THING, GOD ALMIGHTY has not "downgraded"
all Christians into "things", he naturally refers to them as people or "ones", in this
case "holy ones." That completely invalidates the poor translation of Jesus as a "hagios"
into "holy THING". Jesus was a "holy ONE" at the time. QED.
Therefore, the entire doctrine of claiming he was a THING based on ONE MISTRANSLED WORD
is WITHOUT MERIT.
GOD ALMIGHTY called it that way, and I for one am disinclined to disagree with Him on this.
Feel free to disagree and tell Him "I believe vpw, not You" on this subject.
=========
Now, as to exactly WHEN a baby is a person,
and what to do when the life of a mother is in danger,
and whether or not I have kids,
this thread asked what GOD said, not what WORDWOLF said,
and asked for avoidance of personal opinion.
Therefore, before any other matter is discussed on this thread,
by the rules of this thread, I'm addressing its designed purpose.
So far, we have been unable to complete THAT issue, but instead
have diverted from it to other issues FIRST.
It's almost as if someone's disinterested in the stated purpose of the thread,
or is making an effort to divert the thread.
Me, I have to answer to my own conscience on this.
quote: as I said earlier, push comes to shove, I think the mother's life is priority over the fetus's. Even in the example of Abigail's friend. Your position on this is not clear.
Your position is still not clear. Are you afraid of offending women? C'mon, whose life is priority? Mother's or fetus?
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Medic's Wife --------"You're going to hate me for this-------" I can only speak for myself but I for one certainly don't hate you for having an opinion on such a controversial issue or for speaking what's on your mind. Discussing important issues is one of the functions Greasespot serves.( OK, that and talking about old TV shows and cool guitars) I think most people here welcome a lively discussion as long as it is within the bounderies of the forum rules. Open discussion and disagreement was something that was frowned on( No, make that snarled at) in TWI. It's refreshing to see things from the perspective of someone who comes from a non-TWI background.
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pond
it is noble like i said your believe that one should "pick up the slack"
the thing is even the folks able would not be able to have a house full of the type of children that would be born without abortion.
the crack babies and minorities that do manage to survive the pregnancy are troubled for many many years and have issues beyond what any loving normal family could handle. people want white healthy babies.
a a few more billion every year and what would we do?
the parents can not or will not care for them where would they go who would pay for their care and medical expense that lasts an entire life time?
many would be hiv and or disabled mentaly and in some way due to abuse by the parents.. so it would not be like you would have a reward at the end of the road other than a child dying or suffering for life time.
like Galen said he had foster kids he can tell you how difficult it is just to house these kids born with problems beyond most can understand.
we cant house the children that are alive! the foster care system in America sucks and is riddled with abuse.
I think it is great some i should say few will " pick up the slack".
have you seen the slack?
imagine it if abortion was out lawed.
I know my mom was unable to have children IM adopted and i have family members who have great difficulty and some think they will not have kids soo I get your wonder.. but trust us getting pregnate is NOT such a difficult thing for many it is not even a thought it is something that happens without reason, surprise surprise really the bigger issue is how to garuntee one doesnt get pregnate isnt it?
we had a lady here with 9 very disabled kids in foster care, crack alcohol abuse.. and it is common.
teen pregnancy is out of control.
but i do get how you do not get it and how very special your kids are.
my nephew and his wife have four under three and she is due again in nov. (twins) mom is 20 years old.
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VeganXTC
What I don't understand is what is meant by "mischief" in Exodus 21:22 and 23. No mischief means payment, but mischief means life for life. What is mischief? Does it mean death? And who's death? The mother? The child?
But really, these verses are talking about men striving, and a woman getting hurt. Can anyone use these verses to say if a woman who chooses to end her pregnancy is right or wrong?
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pond
vegan
I know it would appear that it is about men choosing what is right for a woman.. um maybe the choice was not up to a woman???
I would think the procedure may be performed by a male, and the culture was one of patriarchy was it not?
good question.
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Galen
I am not in favor of promiscuous sex outside of marriage.
And I am not in favor of using abortion is a birth-control method.
Each time that a 16 yr old girl discovers that she is pregnant, and goes a week finally trying to assess what life lays before her. At that moment, may be the first time that she has honestly assessed her life. Hopefully she knows a mentor whom she trusts and can confide in. Now if she determines that the best course of action, for herself and her future children, would be to abort this fetus. Then I would applaud her, and I would hope that she can learn from the experience to stop being so promiscuous, to straighten out her life.
If an adult woman, finds herself likewise pregnant. And in her wisdom, she decides that the risks are too great, or that she can not provide enough to raise another child, or whatever; Then I would honor her decision, and praise her for at least trying to stop and think about what she is doing.
We have raised foster-children the very hell-spawn demon-children out of control and state-over-seen children with more 'rights' then control. We had a 10-yr old sexual predator, with ADHD, ODD, RAD, and OED. We raised a girl who was routinely raped beginning at 5yr and the state insisted on maintaining visitations with her rapist father in prison. Children who were trained to be quite when their mother was working a trick, and to help grind her pills into powder so she could snort them. We adopted a FAS child.
America has over 150,000 children currently free for adoption, awaiting to meet any adult willing to take them. But Americans would rather fly to Russia or China and buy their children [my niece just did]. And many states will even pay the adoptive family a child-support for taking these children.
No we do not need more children to be dumped into the system.
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johniam
quote: According to the blue letter bible concordance, the phrase "that holy thing" is the single Greek word hagios - "thing" was added by the translators, and therefore has no authority.
It's been awhile since I read this, but yes the only greek for holy thing is hagios, yet in Bullinger's Lexicon and concordance to the NT he says the word hagios is neuter, hence the word thing.
What? Are you pro life?
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johniam
quote: What I don't understand is what is meant by "mischief" in Exodus 21:22 and 23. No mischief means payment, but mischief means life for life. What is mischief? Does it mean death? And who's death? The mother? The child?
VP did teach that mischief meant the woman dies, in which case the man dies too who caused her death. If no mischief follow means the woman does not die, but in God's view, the woman's life is more important than her "fruit" as I read it.
What puzzles me is when it says according as the woman's husband will lay upon him in verse 22. That leaves a lot to the imagination. I guess the woman's husband can't kill the guy, but he can probably beat him up pretty good.
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Oakspear
For anyone who still has a good lexicon that lists the parts of speech for all words used in the NT: is johniam correct, is hagios is this case the neuter gender? What gender is used in other instances? Is the use of gender significant in this case?
The actual form of hagios in this verse is hagion, and it is modifying the word gennōmenon, translated as "which shall be born". Earlier in the verse, "holy" is in the same form, hagion when modifying pneuma, spirit.
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VeganXTC
Johniam: I know VP taught mischief was the death of the woman, but I could never make that teaching "my own" as he use to say. Why couldn't the mischief mean the child? A woman's fruit (baby) could depart and live, thus the no mischief. And if the child died, mischief ensued.
And as far as the husband laying upon him, my uneducated guess was always what the husband wanted the other to pay in monetary damages. But I never thought about the husband being able to beat him up!
Pond: Yeah, I was always taught that the men ruled the roost in Moses' time. So, if I was taught correctly, maybe the key to what God says about abortion is directed in how a man rules his house?
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ChattyKathy
I believe there is godly compassion towards the individual in ways I'll never understand. Had my mother aborted after being raped at 15 I'd not be here.
I don't believe it would be right to choose the child over the mother in cases of difficult births. I had such a one, in fact was not to have ever been able to have children, hubby had to sign off on who he wanted the doctors to save (me) as they felt both couldn't be. Our son was born 36 hours later, much to my exhaustion and overwhelming joy.
Not posted by me before. My sister also was raped at a very young age and became pregnant. Without my mother telling her what was happening she took her to a doctor and just before they arrived she explained to my sister what the doctor was going to do and how she was too young to carry a baby. My sister was then taken in and the deed done. For the balance of my sister's life she felt burdened. And when she lost a set of twins, then a boy before she had her 2 sons she felt it was a punishment for having taken a life. My mother carried that plus the fact those extra things they had to do to my sister to enable her to carry her boys full term was what might have introduced the cancer that later took her life.
I believe God is big enough to have exceptions written into his word for us. I just don't know fully how to read it all. But I believe it is a living soul the second it begins forming.
As to scripture, sorry I provided only opinions and experience but felt others had so why not.
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doojable
Has it occurred to anyone here that God made this a difficult decision for a reason?
I mean, It just might very well be that life doesn't start until the first breath. BUT once a woman has had a child, abortion is not an easy choice. I'm sure any woman that has had an abortion has counselled many to not do it. On some level - this becomes a choice that is far beyond what is technically right.
Not only do you have the beating heart of the child (fetus) at stake, you also have the heart, the emotions, the soul, of the mother.
Now I realize that this thread is about what the Word says. I'm just weighing in here to say that we keep talking about sin, perhaps specifically the sin of murder.
I guess that I'm trying to make the point that we are forgetting that God is concerned with our hearts. There is great sin in guilt and self-condemnation.
No matter what the choice might be - there is also the sin of pressuring a woman to have or not have that abortion. Here I am specifically thinking about all those women that were forced to abort because "after all - it's not really alive."
Lots of ramblings. Hope I didn't derail......
Guilt is a tough burden to bear.
BTW - I did not have an abortion - but I know plenty of women that have and most of them live to regret that decision.
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pond
I think some may suffer with the sins you metion bramble and indeed it is a trick of satan himself to burden Gods people with such pain.
IN my previous post I metioned what the real issue is.. and the pressure of sex is also very painful and hurtful and I think an abortion brings it to a point one has to consider how they got to this point of choice in life.
In a healthy Godly marriage abortion is NOT such a huge issue, it is when one is messing in what the world dictates as love and sex that a person has to look at how this pregnancy may have happened in the first place.
and That is very uncorfortable and much denied in this sin tainted sexual society we live in. satan uses it to beat the crap out of Gods beloved.
I know you may have a circle of friends who need to rethink why they made the choice to abort , but given the numbers we have of abortions in America alone I really do think it is that much of a self condemnation or guilt choice for many who are not dealing with the love of God in their heart.
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johniam
VeganXTC: Fruit departing means she had a miscarriage. Only after that do we read about mischief.
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VeganXTC
Now, I am no Hebrew scholar, but isn't the word depart "yatsa" as opposed to "shakol"(Hosea 9:14)? So, couldn't her fruit depart, and still be alive?
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DrtyDzn
What kind of chhoice was available back then? Did they even have a reliable way to abort a pregnancy? Maybe there were home brewed remedies that could be ingested that were supposed to terminate a pregnancy, but I think a medical procedure would have been pretty risky. That would explain why there is no clear opinion in the word that applies to todays dilema on abortion.
Jerry
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WordWolf
JohnIam:
"In Acts 4:30, AFTER Jesus was born, he is called a holy CHILD. In Luke 1:35, BEFORE Jesus was born, when he was in utero, he is called a holy THING! Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child.
I get mildly annoyed seeing those bumper stickers which say 'It's a child, not a choice'. If I had the means or the inclination I might alter the message to 'It's a fetus, not a child'."
"To be fair, when John the Baptist was about to be born it says the BABE leapt in Elisabeth's womb. There. No partial birth abortions. If I could make law, I'd say all abortions must be performed before the end of the first trimester (13 weeks) the only exception being if a doctor concluded that the mother's life would be in danger later than that and that any doctor found to fraudulently sign off on that would permanently lose his med license."
Ok, as to the second, I think JohnIam agrees with almost all of us on the second matter, that John the
Baptist was referred to as a "babe" and not "a collection of cells", so that sometime BEFORE 9 months he
would be considered a baby, which means that he counted as such sometime BEFORE
"his first breath". (Which would mean an abortion at that point would be ending his life intentionally, which
would be murder in the first degree.)
Now, as to the former,
JohnIam said
===========
"In Acts 4:30, AFTER Jesus was born, he is called a holy CHILD. In Luke 1:35, BEFORE Jesus was born, when he was in utero, he is called a holy THING! Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child."
===========
I'd like to proceed.
============
Oakspear:
"According to the blue letter bible concordance, the phrase "that holy thing" is the single Greek word
hagios - "thing" was added by the translators, and therefore has no authority. "
=============
JohnIam:
"It's been awhile since I read this, but yes the only greek for holy thing is hagios, yet in Bullinger's Lexicon and concordance to the NT he says the word hagios is neuter, hence the word thing.
What? Are you pro life?"
=============
Oakspear:
"Actually I brought it up because I will not take anything as truth because Wierwille said it, not because of a position one way or another on abortion.
For anyone who still has a good lexicon that lists the parts of speech for all words used in the NT: is johniam correct, is hagios is this case the neuter gender? What gender is used in other instances? Is the use of gender significant in this case?
The actual form of hagios in this verse is hagion, and it is modifying the word gennōmenon, translated as "which shall be born". Earlier in the verse, "holy" is in the same form, hagion when modifying pneuma, spirit."
================
Ok, it is here that WordWolf joins the discussion....
I've wondered if anyone was ever going to bring that up.
Actually, back in twi-timeframes, I was going verse-by-verse through the Greek on much of the New
Testament. (I had the time.) I did look at this verse, Luke 1:35. It is true that the English calls Jesus
"that holy thing". It also says "replenish" in Genesis, which has nothing to do with the Hebrew meaning
of the word, "to fill". So, we look at the Greek. The most literal Greek I got from Luke 1:35 in that
verse, from the phrase "holy thing", which was the Greek word "hagion", was "Holy One."
That's because the plural of that word, "oi hagioi", is translated as "the saints."
(My Bullinger's Critical Greek Lexicon notes that thus noun was used for "the saints" 61 times, and
"saint" in the singular once.)
This happens in the openings of several Church Epistles, like Romans 1:7, where the word "saints"
in
"to all those who are in Rome beloved of God called saints", the word "saints" is "hagiois".
So Jesus, at the time of "the Annunciation" (Gabriel visiting Mary) was referred to as a "hagios",
and I NOW am referred to as a "hagios". Either we are both a "thing" or we both are NOT.
Basic English places a noun as a person, place or thing. Since I am a person, I am not a "thing",
since I can't be both "person" and "thing" under basic definitions.
(Unless one wants to split hairs and go into different specialist vocabularies in an effort to obscure
the subject, anyway.)
Therefore, since I'm a person or a "holy one" in that expression, so was he.
That's using simple Bible cross-checking: the meaning in Luke 1:35 must agree with ALL usages in Scripture.
And whether one is pro-life, pro-choice or pro-ball player when discussing what it actually SAYS is a nonissue.
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VeganXTC
Drty Dzn, I agree with what you say. I don't think it was the big controversy it is today. I think they (people in Biblical times) were more concerned with coveting their neighbor's ox. Or wearing clothes with mixed fibers.
Hey, what happened to your brainy avatar?
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Oakspear
Sharp logic as usual Wolf
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VeganXTC
:)
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DrtyDzn
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johniam
quote: so that sometime BEFORE 9 months he
would be considered a baby,
You don't know that. All we know is that shortly before John the Baptist's birth he was a babe, not a thing.
quote: Which would mean an abortion at that point would be ending his life intentionally, which
would be murder in the first degree.)
At WHAT point? Shortly before his birth? or anytime before his birth?
quote: So Jesus, at the time of "the Annunciation" (Gabriel visiting Mary) was referred to as a "hagios",
and I NOW am referred to as a "hagios".
What do you NOW have to do with Jesus in utero?
I'm not really trying to pick a fight with you; as I said earlier, push comes to shove, I think the mother's life is priority over the fetus's. Even in the example of Abigail's friend. Your position on this is not clear.
I have 3 kids. All 3 were born at home with a midwife. Our 3rd had the cord wrapped around his neck several times by the time he got to the birth canal. The midwife caught it and stuck 2 fingers in there and pryed the cord away from his neck so that he wouldn't suffocate when he crowned. I was there.
Knowing what he has grown into, I don't even want to think of the idea of someone drilling a hole in his head at that moment thus ending his life, but I would have preferred that over having my wife die.
You got kids, Wordwolf?
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VeganXTC
Ah Drty, once again you are too smart for words. At least my words. I do think you need your brainy avatar up again. Smart men are so hot.
I don't remember posting a smiley face. Do you think I have an alter ego, or do I sleepwalk?
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WordWolf
JohnIam:
"In Acts 4:30, AFTER Jesus was born, he is called a holy CHILD. In Luke 1:35, BEFORE Jesus was born, when he was in utero, he is called a holy THING! Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child.
I get mildly annoyed seeing those bumper stickers which say 'It's a child, not a choice'. If I had the means or the inclination I might alter the message to 'It's a fetus, not a child'."
"To be fair, when John the Baptist was about to be born it says the BABE leapt in Elisabeth's womb. There. No partial birth abortions. If I could make law, I'd say all abortions must be performed before the end of the first trimester (13 weeks) the only exception being if a doctor concluded that the mother's life would be in danger later than that and that any doctor found to fraudulently sign off on that would permanently lose his med license."
Ok, as to the second, I think JohnIam agrees with almost all of us on the second matter, that John the
Baptist was referred to as a "babe" and not "a collection of cells", so that sometime BEFORE 9 months he
would be considered a baby, which means that he counted as such sometime BEFORE
"his first breath". (Which would mean an abortion at that point would be ending his life intentionally, which
would be murder in the first degree.)
Now, as to the former,
JohnIam said
===========
"In Acts 4:30, AFTER Jesus was born, he is called a holy CHILD. In Luke 1:35, BEFORE Jesus was born, when he was in utero, he is called a holy THING! Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child."
===========
I'd like to proceed.
============
Oakspear:
"According to the blue letter bible concordance, the phrase "that holy thing" is the single Greek word
hagios - "thing" was added by the translators, and therefore has no authority. "
=============
JohnIam:
"It's been awhile since I read this, but yes the only greek for holy thing is hagios, yet in Bullinger's Lexicon and concordance to the NT he says the word hagios is neuter, hence the word thing.
What? Are you pro life?"
=============
Oakspear:
"Actually I brought it up because I will not take anything as truth because Wierwille said it, not because of a position one way or another on abortion.
For anyone who still has a good lexicon that lists the parts of speech for all words used in the NT: is johniam correct, is hagios is this case the neuter gender? What gender is used in other instances? Is the use of gender significant in this case?
The actual form of hagios in this verse is hagion, and it is modifying the word gennōmenon, translated as "which shall be born". Earlier in the verse, "holy" is in the same form, hagion when modifying pneuma, spirit."
================
WordWolf:
"I've wondered if anyone was ever going to bring that up.
Actually, back in twi-timeframes, I was going verse-by-verse through the Greek on much of the New
Testament. (I had the time.) I did look at this verse, Luke 1:35. It is true that the English calls Jesus
"that holy thing". It also says "replenish" in Genesis, which has nothing to do with the Hebrew meaning
of the word, "to fill". So, we look at the Greek. The most literal Greek I got from Luke 1:35 in that
verse, from the phrase "holy thing", which was the Greek word "hagion", was "Holy One."
That's because the plural of that word, "oi hagioi", is translated as "the saints."
(My Bullinger's Critical Greek Lexicon notes that thus noun was used for "the saints" 61 times, and
"saint" in the singular once.)
This happens in the openings of several Church Epistles, like Romans 1:7, where the word "saints"
in
"to all those who are in Rome beloved of God called saints", the word "saints" is "hagiois".
So Jesus, at the time of "the Annunciation" (Gabriel visiting Mary) was referred to as a "hagios",
and I NOW am referred to as a "hagios". Either we are both a "thing" or we both are NOT.
Basic English places a noun as a person, place or thing. Since I am a person, I am not a "thing",
since I can't be both "person" and "thing" under basic definitions.
(Unless one wants to split hairs and go into different specialist vocabularies in an effort to obscure
the subject, anyway.)
Therefore, since I'm a person or a "holy one" in that expression, so was he.
That's using simple Bible cross-checking: the meaning in Luke 1:35 must agree with ALL usages in Scripture.
And whether one is pro-life, pro-choice or pro-ball player when discussing what it actually SAYS is a nonissue."
============
JohnIam:
"quote: so that sometime BEFORE 9 months he
would be considered a baby,
You don't know that. All we know is that shortly before John the Baptist's birth he was a babe, not a thing.
quote: Which would mean an abortion at that point would be ending his life intentionally, which
would be murder in the first degree.)
At WHAT point? Shortly before his birth? or anytime before his birth?
quote: So Jesus, at the time of "the Annunciation" (Gabriel visiting Mary) was referred to as a "hagios",
and I NOW am referred to as a "hagios".
What do you NOW have to do with Jesus in utero?
I'm not really trying to pick a fight with you; as I said earlier, push comes to shove, I think the mother's life is priority over the fetus's. Even in the example of Abigail's friend. Your position on this is not clear.
I have 3 kids. All 3 were born at home with a midwife. Our 3rd had the cord wrapped around his neck several times by the time he got to the birth canal. The midwife caught it and stuck 2 fingers in there and pryed the cord away from his neck so that he wouldn't suffocate when he crowned. I was there.
Knowing what he has grown into, I don't even want to think of the idea of someone drilling a hole in his head at that moment thus ending his life, but I would have preferred that over having my wife die.
You got kids, Wordwolf?"
I said "sometime BEFORE 9 months he would be considered a baby"
JohnIam replied "You don't know that. All we know is that shortly before John the Baptist's birth he was a babe, not a thing."
Frankly, I'm amazed someone can read that and say you DON'T know that.
Here's the account-which you YOURSELF CITED.
Luke 1:41
"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost"
Luke 1:44
"For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."
(Greek word 'brephos', which is also rendered "infant" or "young child" elsewhere.)
So, since John was not born yet, he was considered a babe/baby.
(I'm skipping any " 'babe does not mean baby thing' because I try not to get involved in discussions that
are EXCEPTIONALLY stupid.)
What month was he at?
Well, according to Gabriel, 6 months.
Luke 1:36.
"And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren."
So, John the Baptist, at 6 months if not sooner, was considered a baby, which is some 3 months before
"first breath" on the average.
That's "sometime before nine months", so that darn well IS what we know.
SINCE John the Baptist, at 6 months, was considered by God to be a babe and not a "thing", and
therefore a person (a babe is a person, I believe MOST of us can see this without further elaboration) ,
then killing him is like killing any OTHER person, and planning to kill a person and doing so is
Murder in the First Degree, under US Law.
JohnIam then wanted to debate the precise point of gestation this would apply-
but seems not to have agreed that this was the case.
---------
When I pointed out God Almighty (by the mouth of Gabriel in the first place, and the pen of Paul in
the second place) called Jesus and me by the same term-hagios, apparently this drew an exception.
"What do you NOW have to do with Jesus in utero?"
Well, I'll say it again.
We're both people.
God called Jesus a "hagios" when in the womb, at a point BEFORE 6 months.
God called me a "hagios" as I am now.
Therefore, GOD ALMIGHTY has drawn a connection between me NOW
and Jesus THEN.
Since as an adult I am a PERSON and not a THING, GOD ALMIGHTY has not "downgraded"
all Christians into "things", he naturally refers to them as people or "ones", in this
case "holy ones." That completely invalidates the poor translation of Jesus as a "hagios"
into "holy THING". Jesus was a "holy ONE" at the time. QED.
Therefore, the entire doctrine of claiming he was a THING based on ONE MISTRANSLED WORD
is WITHOUT MERIT.
GOD ALMIGHTY called it that way, and I for one am disinclined to disagree with Him on this.
Feel free to disagree and tell Him "I believe vpw, not You" on this subject.
=========
Now, as to exactly WHEN a baby is a person,
and what to do when the life of a mother is in danger,
and whether or not I have kids,
this thread asked what GOD said, not what WORDWOLF said,
and asked for avoidance of personal opinion.
Therefore, before any other matter is discussed on this thread,
by the rules of this thread, I'm addressing its designed purpose.
So far, we have been unable to complete THAT issue, but instead
have diverted from it to other issues FIRST.
It's almost as if someone's disinterested in the stated purpose of the thread,
or is making an effort to divert the thread.
Me, I have to answer to my own conscience on this.
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johniam
quote: as I said earlier, push comes to shove, I think the mother's life is priority over the fetus's. Even in the example of Abigail's friend. Your position on this is not clear.
Your position is still not clear. Are you afraid of offending women? C'mon, whose life is priority? Mother's or fetus?
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