Perhaps Rascal, then again I suppose we would all have to carry one of these stickers around. I've seen non -Christian hazardous information being distributed here at the cafe. So who chooses who wears the label?
due to the application of the contents here in*
Except that this is a assumption not a proven fact perhaps the fault is with the user. It would not be the first time crazy people were attracted to a church group. Boy I can remember a few in my Way years. That does not mean the teaching of the group was the reason for their behavior. As I said I have listened to 362 Gartmore SNS CDs and read every newsletter published for years and sat through their classes and I can confirm that in application of that material there is not even a hint of direction to be abusive to another person. If those things are happening then I would suggest that one look for the real cause which would be the person responsible.
I don't know if that is necessarily true Rascal people were attracted to the fellowships for a variety of reasons . Some for answers, some for a girlfriend/boyfriend ,some because they did not fit in with society and were loved, some needed healing ,some wanted to change their life, and some just wanted what they could get for free. What they did with the product was their result.
At some point you have to stop blaming the people for the product failing to produce the advertised results
Why ?if it is user error that does not mean the product is defective.
First off the product does produce the advertised results if you apply what you learn if not then it will not. That's pretty much true in most learning situations.
My new computer only works as well as I use it which at times is lacking due to user error, but the product is quite good. It will do far more than I make it do, but the user is not accessing it because he has not read and applied the manual. not the product fault it's me.
...and some of those reasons that people attended were the promises made. That you would learn everything pertaining to life and Godliness.
Also healing from physical illness, harmony in the home, prosperity ...etc.
People died, marriages broke up, earnest hearts broken, and young girls pimped into sexual service for the mogs...hardly the *more than abundant life* that the product promised...shrug
TWI`s leader molded his owndoctrine to make it ok for him to sexually use teenaged girls.
G666r who believed that it was ok to pimp for his boss, to the point that he drugged unwilling victims now heads a group that is trying to preserve the same doctrine....
A bad tree doesn`t produce good fruit.....sure it might look appealing but that doesn`t garauntee wholesomness.
These men have a product decorated with glitzy advertising and bright promises. The product has failed to produce the desired results....when confronted....they intimate that nobody elses product works any better.
Well spoken Rascal!! You really have a handle on the situation with
Geer, I am one of the families destroyed.
As far as Whitedove is concerned he just does not get it, nor does he want to. So I would not waste time . He is like alot of those who follow Geer blindly, They don't want to believe he is just as corrupt as VP was and look how many lives were affected and destroyed by him, he is just following his leader.
...and some of those reasons that people attended were the promises made. That you would learn everything pertaining to life and Godliness.
Also healing from physical illness, harmony in the home, prosperity ...etc.
Agreed and some did ,many for that matter. I know several that were healed because they were able to learn the scriptures on how to access the promise due to the material presented ,the same for the other things. but that is another issue.
Rascal I believe we were discussing whether the materials distributed by Word Promotions had or would have directed a person to commit a crime against another and if the author, compiler of said material would therefore have any responsibility to or in the said incident. As I said having reviewed all of the material I can witness that it is just not in there there is not one tiny shred of evidence to the fact such an action was encouraged, which leads to the conclusion that the user was the one at fault that is where the blame should be . I wonder have you done the same or are speaking on a guess? How much have you looked into, read or listened to to let you make this enlightened observation about what it does or does not say, promote? To blame someone for material that is not in their writings is not logical. If the user did not get the desired results then it was the users error. Many others have received the results, so the product works. Like a computer there is a application process to make the product work if you leave it in the box it does not. So it is with the material in a class whatever class it may be. One needs to apply the material if you don't you don't get the result. When and where you do you get the result, If you apply part you get part result. And if you quit applying the learning you lose sometimes what you have achieved as a result, sometimes not. You can not like a person all you want your choice and right, but you can not hold them responsible for matters that are not theirs to have a part in, when they did not.
Pink lady your half right I do understand your position but you are right I don't want to get it. Not for the reason that you listed but because there is not a connected logical reason to accept your ideas. Having had the same material I have not seen the same results that you have. There is nothing there to indicate that the presenter of the material encouraged or condoned this behavior, nor was any evidence produced that they had any direction in the fellowship so indicated. In short they are not involved in the matter, no more so than the song that the perpetrator heard on the radio that day is. No I won't hold someone guilty for a crime or action that they clearly have no part in. And I'm glad that most people in America see things that way without proof of guilt you are innocent. I hope to God you don't sit on any juries anytime soon if you think that way.
Your story is indeed a horrible thing, and I do hope that those responsible are held to justice at least what we have in our land, I know it will never be enough. I know it must be a hard thing to believe, that someone who supposedly loved you would do such a thing to you, I can't understand it even from afar. But I hope you focus on the person who was responsible for your pain and suffering. I'm sorry that what should have been material to help direct this person in a different path failed, but I would submit that it was not the material, or presenter, but the individual that is at fault. I'm sorry he failed to be the person he could have been and for your loss and pain. I wish I could tell you why some choose love and some choose destruction but I can't, it seems an easy choice to me. In any case I wish you peace and safety in your life choices.
Igotout and I have been away from internet access for about a week. I only skimmed the posts on the last 3 or 4 pages, so if I repeat some of the points that have already been made, I apologize.
Preface: I stayed in TWI until 2000 (too long) and experienced LCM’s melt-down. I watched him get more legalistic and paranoid from 1990 until the Waydale lawsuit brought his warped behavior to light.
I also know several people who got involved with a CG spin-off group soon after PoP. Many have stayed active in those groups and, as I shared before, are not very friendly or informative about what they believe. However, I also know a couple of people who left a CG group around the same time I left TWI. The stories they shared with me sounded almost exactly like ones I could tell about the latter years of TWI!
IMO, LCM and CG walked down the same path – parallel to one another – going in the same direction. Many of the practices of both organizations are so similar, you wouldn’t know they were ever at odds.
For example: LCM told us not to go surfing on the internet. If we needed information, we should “get on the internet, get what we need and then get off”. I was told by someone who left a Geer associated fellowship that they were told that the internet was just a tool to use, and that it “wasn’t profitable” to search for things out of curiosity.
The “Mark and Avoid” policy of TWI seems similar if not identical to the CG fellowships. First – confrontation, second – accusation, third – rejection, and finally – isolation. The last step was usually in the form of a letter saying something like “have no further contact with…” whichever group was marking and avoiding the accused!
Lots of legalism, control, and fear motivation also come into play in both groups. Also, the arrogance of the claim of having the “present truth” from “the man of God” are part of the package. The difference is in which MOG they follow. I’m not sure if the CG groups regard Chris as the MOG or VPW or both. I know in TWI it was Rev-er-end-Mar-tin-dale. Anyone else was either a counterfeit or an “old wineskin”.
My point is, that these two guys should have teamed up. For the most part, they were both on the same page. They would have had a lot more people stick around, and probably would have been able to hide any of their deviant behavior for longer period of time.
But both of them have huge egos. I’m sure neither would admit that they agreed on anything, and each of them would consider themselves spiritually superior to the other. Of course, they both believe that VPW put them in their positions of power as MOGs, which to them probably justified everything they did.
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sprawled out
gee, now i understand, tom. i didn't realize you were nobly defending a couple of nice guys. i thought you were just being an a**hole. thanks for clearing that up.
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WhiteDove
Perhaps Rascal, then again I suppose we would all have to carry one of these stickers around. I've seen non -Christian hazardous information being distributed here at the cafe. So who chooses who wears the label?
Except that this is a assumption not a proven fact perhaps the fault is with the user. It would not be the first time crazy people were attracted to a church group. Boy I can remember a few in my Way years. That does not mean the teaching of the group was the reason for their behavior. As I said I have listened to 362 Gartmore SNS CDs and read every newsletter published for years and sat through their classes and I can confirm that in application of that material there is not even a hint of direction to be abusive to another person. If those things are happening then I would suggest that one look for the real cause which would be the person responsible.
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rascal
Yeah, but isn`t it notworthey how many seem to be involved in this splinter, beginning of course with the groups illustrious leader :(
Boy I can remember a few in my Way years.
Amen and AMEN! Again, beginning with it`s leaders at the very top.
Ya gotta suspect that there is something wrong with the product if
A) It attracts crazy people (dove`s words) .and they just get crazier.....and
B) The founding leaders/creaters of the product habitually indulged in criminal behavior.
At some point you have to stop blaming the people for the product failing to produce the advertised results.
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WhiteDove
I don't know if that is necessarily true Rascal people were attracted to the fellowships for a variety of reasons . Some for answers, some for a girlfriend/boyfriend ,some because they did not fit in with society and were loved, some needed healing ,some wanted to change their life, and some just wanted what they could get for free. What they did with the product was their result.
Why ?if it is user error that does not mean the product is defective.
First off the product does produce the advertised results if you apply what you learn if not then it will not. That's pretty much true in most learning situations.
My new computer only works as well as I use it which at times is lacking due to user error, but the product is quite good. It will do far more than I make it do, but the user is not accessing it because he has not read and applied the manual. not the product fault it's me.
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rascal
...and some of those reasons that people attended were the promises made. That you would learn everything pertaining to life and Godliness.
Also healing from physical illness, harmony in the home, prosperity ...etc.
People died, marriages broke up, earnest hearts broken, and young girls pimped into sexual service for the mogs...hardly the *more than abundant life* that the product promised...shrug
TWI`s leader molded his owndoctrine to make it ok for him to sexually use teenaged girls.
G666r who believed that it was ok to pimp for his boss, to the point that he drugged unwilling victims now heads a group that is trying to preserve the same doctrine....
A bad tree doesn`t produce good fruit.....sure it might look appealing but that doesn`t garauntee wholesomness.
These men have a product decorated with glitzy advertising and bright promises. The product has failed to produce the desired results....when confronted....they intimate that nobody elses product works any better.
They are deceptive.
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pinklady
Well spoken Rascal!! You really have a handle on the situation with
Geer, I am one of the families destroyed.
As far as Whitedove is concerned he just does not get it, nor does he want to. So I would not waste time . He is like alot of those who follow Geer blindly, They don't want to believe he is just as corrupt as VP was and look how many lives were affected and destroyed by him, he is just following his leader.
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sprawled out
a simple heads-up is all i ask. it could've made all the difference for a lot of us:
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WhiteDove
Agreed and some did ,many for that matter. I know several that were healed because they were able to learn the scriptures on how to access the promise due to the material presented ,the same for the other things. but that is another issue.
Rascal I believe we were discussing whether the materials distributed by Word Promotions had or would have directed a person to commit a crime against another and if the author, compiler of said material would therefore have any responsibility to or in the said incident. As I said having reviewed all of the material I can witness that it is just not in there there is not one tiny shred of evidence to the fact such an action was encouraged, which leads to the conclusion that the user was the one at fault that is where the blame should be . I wonder have you done the same or are speaking on a guess? How much have you looked into, read or listened to to let you make this enlightened observation about what it does or does not say, promote? To blame someone for material that is not in their writings is not logical. If the user did not get the desired results then it was the users error. Many others have received the results, so the product works. Like a computer there is a application process to make the product work if you leave it in the box it does not. So it is with the material in a class whatever class it may be. One needs to apply the material if you don't you don't get the result. When and where you do you get the result, If you apply part you get part result. And if you quit applying the learning you lose sometimes what you have achieved as a result, sometimes not. You can not like a person all you want your choice and right, but you can not hold them responsible for matters that are not theirs to have a part in, when they did not.
Pink lady your half right I do understand your position but you are right I don't want to get it. Not for the reason that you listed but because there is not a connected logical reason to accept your ideas. Having had the same material I have not seen the same results that you have. There is nothing there to indicate that the presenter of the material encouraged or condoned this behavior, nor was any evidence produced that they had any direction in the fellowship so indicated. In short they are not involved in the matter, no more so than the song that the perpetrator heard on the radio that day is. No I won't hold someone guilty for a crime or action that they clearly have no part in. And I'm glad that most people in America see things that way without proof of guilt you are innocent. I hope to God you don't sit on any juries anytime soon if you think that way.
Your story is indeed a horrible thing, and I do hope that those responsible are held to justice at least what we have in our land, I know it will never be enough. I know it must be a hard thing to believe, that someone who supposedly loved you would do such a thing to you, I can't understand it even from afar. But I hope you focus on the person who was responsible for your pain and suffering. I'm sorry that what should have been material to help direct this person in a different path failed, but I would submit that it was not the material, or presenter, but the individual that is at fault. I'm sorry he failed to be the person he could have been and for your loss and pain. I wish I could tell you why some choose love and some choose destruction but I can't, it seems an easy choice to me. In any case I wish you peace and safety in your life choices.
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Hope R.
Igotout and I have been away from internet access for about a week. I only skimmed the posts on the last 3 or 4 pages, so if I repeat some of the points that have already been made, I apologize.
Preface: I stayed in TWI until 2000 (too long) and experienced LCM’s melt-down. I watched him get more legalistic and paranoid from 1990 until the Waydale lawsuit brought his warped behavior to light.
I also know several people who got involved with a CG spin-off group soon after PoP. Many have stayed active in those groups and, as I shared before, are not very friendly or informative about what they believe. However, I also know a couple of people who left a CG group around the same time I left TWI. The stories they shared with me sounded almost exactly like ones I could tell about the latter years of TWI!
IMO, LCM and CG walked down the same path – parallel to one another – going in the same direction. Many of the practices of both organizations are so similar, you wouldn’t know they were ever at odds.
For example: LCM told us not to go surfing on the internet. If we needed information, we should “get on the internet, get what we need and then get off”. I was told by someone who left a Geer associated fellowship that they were told that the internet was just a tool to use, and that it “wasn’t profitable” to search for things out of curiosity.
The “Mark and Avoid” policy of TWI seems similar if not identical to the CG fellowships. First – confrontation, second – accusation, third – rejection, and finally – isolation. The last step was usually in the form of a letter saying something like “have no further contact with…” whichever group was marking and avoiding the accused!
Lots of legalism, control, and fear motivation also come into play in both groups. Also, the arrogance of the claim of having the “present truth” from “the man of God” are part of the package. The difference is in which MOG they follow. I’m not sure if the CG groups regard Chris as the MOG or VPW or both. I know in TWI it was Rev-er-end-Mar-tin-dale. Anyone else was either a counterfeit or an “old wineskin”.
My point is, that these two guys should have teamed up. For the most part, they were both on the same page. They would have had a lot more people stick around, and probably would have been able to hide any of their deviant behavior for longer period of time.
But both of them have huge egos. I’m sure neither would admit that they agreed on anything, and each of them would consider themselves spiritually superior to the other. Of course, they both believe that VPW put them in their positions of power as MOGs, which to them probably justified everything they did.
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Dot Matrix
Thanks Hope and good posts Rascal!
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GarthP2000
"G666r"
heheheehhe
Good one!
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