Relatively, no overhead expenses. Any staff salaries?? equipment? machinery? fleet cars?
No traveling expenses, no counseling fees, no pastoral work............no programs, no outreach.
Just sitting in an office re-re-researching scriptures and COLLECTING 15% abs and thousands from those franchise contracts. Sorry, it just strikes me as exploiting the simple and weak.
Sky to answer some of your questions:
First I don't go to a quote "Geer group fellowship" I have my own ,but I have attended at times one and some classes .
We have been through this before but looked into the license agreement for numerous reasons it did not seem like an arrangement that I could live with.
I do get his newsletter which is mailed free of charge (an expense )
I did subscribe to the Gartmore tapes and books for years which I found to be for the most part fine.
Now regarding the Geer group actually there is as I have said no group each fellowship is independently functioning ( which would explain the good ones and bad)
Word Promotions is a corporation that produces materials, books, tapes ,classes ,and such they don't run fellowships or have any governing rights in them as they are not Word Promotions to govern. Chris runs his own fellowship in which he does and is responsible there. This is the same as any Christian book sales company that sells books ie The Purpose Driven Life just because someone buys the book and uses it in their church fellowship does not make the author responsible for the actions of the group leader sorry it does not work that way. If they go psycho and kill everybody in their group the author is not responsible for the individuals actions.
These individual groups by free will have agreed to give a portion to Word Promotions to continue to produce things for them (we could debate whether that is worth the price) but their business.
Expenses- yes Word Promotions has staff and expenses for such, two in Scotland at least last I knew and I'd guess some here. yes they do have equipment but I don't have a list for you but you can probably figure it out (CD duplicating equipment ,Computers, disk imprinters, copiers, printing costs, office expenses,drambuie, mailing materials, shipping costs from Scotland for materials,and so forth.
I believe that they also pay some expenses for those helping to do research and proofing of items.
Don't know if a car or cars is included in their inventory or not - most likely I'd think.
Travel expenses - don't know for sure what is happening now with the opening of the Maine office but Chris was traveling back and forth to Scotland for a few years to the office there, man that's a commute!
No counseling fees, no pastoral work............no programs, no outreach.
Correct He is not running a counseling, fellowship ,outreach ministry like the Way.
It's pretty simple when you break it down he is producing materials for independent run fellowships that is what Word Promotions does as such. He has no responsibility for people that use his products. No more so than The Beatles had for Charles Manson when he heard voices after listening to Helter Skelter. The problem is that people seem to want to put Word Promotions into a box like other ministries it is not, and Chris has been more than clear with his intentions for what they do. It is up to the public to decide if that is something they wish to access or not.
How could one trust the leader of a group that thought it was ok to drug teenagers for his boss`s sexual perversions?
How could one expect such as he to have even the remotest grasp on the love of God or scriptures when he so clearly despised the most important instructions for believers contained in the bible?
I think that he is a lot more sinister than someone simply producing materials for public consumption....as is evident by the fruit of those whom dilligently apply his instruction.
I can make no judgment upon a person based on what occurred in their past alone, people change many exway 's have done that. I have my own life to be concerned about and can't see into someone else's thoughts even if I wanted to. Apparently some people think they can! from a distance no less! WOW such talent. I find it interesting that many of those participated in similar activities and yet they somehow can deny acceptance based on the past for others. I guess they are in the same category we should not trust them either after all they marked and avoided many people and caused irrefutable damage to many.
Who else here drugged teenagers for wierwille`s sexual use? Who here has participated in similar such activities?
You are absolutely correct Dove, we ccertainly cannot know what is in another man`s heart...that is precisely why scripures require us to examine the fruit in a man`s life and hold a leader accountable to a particularr standard...shrug
How can you construe this as denying access to others?
Has he repented? Has he apologised? Has he sought forgivness from those he harmed? All tangible indications that he might have had a change of heart.
Evidence indicates that he is still the arrogant cruel bully who committed many crimes in service to his man of God.
Whitedove, How about evil associations corrupt good moral? The Apostle Paul surely would not condone any corruption from those he was associated with or any that lacked intregrity!!!! Geer Has knowlege of many things that are contrary to God's word and he does not care. It is his responsbility, he is responsible for his actions or lack of proper ones. I have letters from him and from him to others where he has told believers never to contact him again, all because they wrote him about one of his liscensees, PP!! All he cares about is the money!
I was there, my friend, I couldn't even consider that someone else might be just trying to help me - I was told that "you wouldn't drink from that glass if I told you there was poison in it, would you?". Well then, you shouldn't listen to what so 'n' so has to say then. Is that right, then! Or are you just trying to cover something up!
We have every right to ask questions, particularly on behalf of our brothers and sisters who we should rightly show a concern for. Not turn our backs and ignore where they are heading. Ezekiel Chapter 3 comes to mind. We have every right for an open and frank discussion on some of the very serious issues that have come to light. It is not "we" who are "in denial".
We have every right to ask questions and to expect that those questions be answered publicly. Not in private and "you mustn't mention this to anyone else" as is the practice in certain groups.
Yes it's OK for the people at the top to know certain things but those who are less well "initiated" mustn't know until they've "committed" themselves a bit more (not to God or Christ, by the way - they were already commited to them, maybe, from the start). No they have to commit themselves to some organisation or another. Then when they've got to a certain level where they've "got something to lose" either financially or socially, then we'll start to filter in some of the more difficult aspects of "the business" and see if they will hack it.
Here's a question I've wanted to ask for a long time and I've just got to let it go - how come TWI stepped in and tried to replace the Godly appointed ministries of two of the foremost leaders of our era: they tried to replace them with their own "organisation". An organisation that falsely claimed to have it's own ministerial appointment (the Way "ministry"). Never does the Lord operate this way - it was a big mistake and cost some people their lives. So it's not surprising that we don't want this happening again to any more of our brothers or sisters.
Oh no, you say, everything's so lovey dovey down here - well, you'd better be sure you're right because the consequences may not be happy ones.
Good job I love you all or I'd really get mean!
Is this loosely on topic, or what?
Hope you guys don't mind me blowing off a bit of steam here.
Only one problem with your guilty as charged idea.
I have yet to see any indictment or verdict rendered for any such actions in a real court, the internet court does not count, sorry but this America and one is innocent until proven guilty at least in most cases. The truth is no matter how much you like or dislike someone as a person it does not validate what they say. People have reasons and issues for what they do and say that are not known to us at times. Ask Rubin Hurricane Carter who sat for years in jail for a crime he did not commit because someone accused him and was believed. Had it not been for Bob Dylan and other celebrities working to get him a new trial, he would still be sitting there today. I doubt you would want to convicted by someone's accusations and I know I would not. Come to think of it that happened once upon a time it seems.
People that hung around and believed Craig and what he said about those who had departed, sang their little songs about washing in our blood, prayed for us to die, and other such nonsense did so not because of any proof but because someone said so. Guess what? One day when they finally woke up they figured out they were wrong, and for the most part it was not because they saw from the scriptures that it was wrong and made a conscious choice because of the scriptures to leave as many before them did, but because they had got the shaft finally and had little choice. Not a admirable reason for leaving IMHO. Either way we were convicted in the court of hey I would not lie to you I'm so and so.....It didn't work out to well. I think maybe you were there.
Sorry that's to way like for me ,show me some truth before you judge someone guilty. You can believe what you want to but this is still America and inocent until proven guilty is the law.
People that hung around and believed Craig and what he said about those who had departed, sang their little songs about washing in our blood, prayed for us to die, and other such nonsense did so not because of any proof but because someone said so. Guess what? One day when they finally woke up they figured out they were wrong, and for the most part it was not because they saw from the scriptures that it was wrong and made a conscious choice because of the scriptures to leave as many before them did, but because they had got the shaft finally and had little choice. Not a admirable reason for leaving IMHO. Either way we were convicted in the court of hey I would not lie to you I'm so and so.....It didn't work out to well. I think maybe you were there.
WhiteDove,
For some of us in the 1986-88 twi era, choosing to stay with twi rather than exit their doors and follow CG (or any other group) was alot more complicated than just "believing Craig." There were a myriad of components to consider.....ministry responsibilities, overseeing fellowships, individual concerns, friendships and fellow-laborers, extended family involvement, etc. etc.
Amongst all of these decisions, my wife and I had had a few run-ins with Cgeer where "he did us dirty." He blatantly lied to cover his actions and deceive upper leadership. Suffice it to say, once bitten one is wary of the terrain where one walks.
And for me.....knowing European corps and Canadian corps who had very traumatic dealings with Geer, the many sources outside GSC have converged on a general consensus with that man. In one word ........... BEWARE.
Now then, the guy may have done a complete 180 degree turn-around since the POP paper and all that. But, IMO, he sure has taken the "corporate approach" of franchising his contracts to ex-wafers. I just don't see any resemblance to spirit-filled ministries......like Paul, Silas, Barnabus, Philip, Timothy, etc.
Oh no, you say, everything's so lovey dovey down here - well, you'd better be sure you're right because the consequences may not be happy ones.
Pete I don't recall saying that........ What I said was that Chris Geer does not run fellowships, Word Promotions is distribution company for materials. Logically then he has no responsibility in things he has no control over. IE:some one elses fellowship.
For some of us in the 1986-88 twi era, choosing to stay with twi rather than exit their doors and follow CG (or any other group) was alot more complicated than just "believing Craig." There were a myriad of components to consider.....ministry responsibilities, overseeing fellowships, individual concerns, friendships and fellow-laborers, extended family involvement, etc. etc.
Agreed but those who left also had the same things to deal with. It comes down to is it what the scriptures say to do or not, all else though not maybe comfortable to experience is none the less not a sound reason to not do what the scriptures tell us. Many of them if not most had family, wives, responsibilities, no job and so forth but they did what they knew to be true walk out trusting God that he would take care of those who do what is right. Trust and Faith! Isn't that the point of all those years of Bible to learn and do the scripture. I don't think there was a but wait till I get (whatever) in there, it is not always comfortable in my experience rarely in fact that we get to continue doing what is wrong till we get setup to do right. Sorry I don't see that in the scriptures.
Agreed but those who left also had the same things to deal with. It comes down to is it what the scriptures say to do or not, all else though not maybe comfortable to experience is none the less not a sound reason to not do what the scriptures tell us. Many of them if not most had family, wives, responsibilities, no job and so forth but they did what they knew to be true walk out trusting God that he would take care of those who do what is right. Trust and Faith! Isn't that the point of all those years of Bible to learn and do the scripture. I don't think there was a but wait till I get (whatever) in there, it is not always comfortable in my experience rarely in fact that we get to continue doing what is wrong till we get setup to do right. Sorry I don't see that in the scriptures.
Same things??? Really?
YOU had run-ins with CGeer where he blatantly out-and-out lied?
YOU had knowledge that Geer was trying to smear your name?
YOU, years earlier, talked to the trustees about Geer's underhandedness?
With this Geer-background.......his account of wierwille's words and "last will and testament" was too hard to swallow for me. And to this day, I'm sooo glad I didn't go down the Geerite path. Seems like some are still wandering around "in the wilderness of was-geer-right?"
Same things- There were a myriad of components to consider.....ministry responsibilities, overseeing fellowships, individual concerns, friendships and fellow-laborers, extended family involvement, etc. etc
Those were your reasons why people had a excuse to stay around and cause hurt to people even though they knew that it was wrong. Those were the same things I was speaking of - your list not mine, and the Way or Geer were not the only choices either so it's not like you had to choose between the two if anyone had a personal run in with him there were some other choices rather than hanging around. How many times here have you read "I knew it was wrong but I did it because so and so told me to. I could add a few more to the list but the bottom line is none were a good reason to not do what the scripture says. As I said I don't see the scripture that says we get to continue doing what is wrong till we get setup to do right. Sorry
Alfa....sorry to cut across your doctrine...just telling what I saw and know, and to reiterate, I'm not attending G**r fellowships, there are many flaws out in G**rland. No question about that.
...you misunderstood me, butIseenow-- I was replying to your description of G**r as a minister, nothing personal against you...read it again that way and you will see my rant was against his methodology and way of doing things and those who buy it hook, line and sinker; not at all against you. You just happened to be the one who so aptly decribed what he do not do...thass all...
I am a friend of pinklady and I have been reading this and I have never been in the twi.
From my perspective, it seems as though the followers of these groups are not barring one anothers burdens. Isn't that the heart of love and why we are learning God's word? Or is it that we are "learning" so that we can make it to Heaven?
I know I want to go somewhere that my feelings matter. I wanna go where I am loved.
To the ex-way people, I feel your pain, I am a part of a family that only think about themselves, I remember one time I was hurt beyond betrayal by my husband with my little sister and my dad said "he can still come over to play cards he didn't do anything to me".
I see you people pouring out your hearts and the response I see from Dove and Johniam is cold and unfeeling. I don't know them but this is what I am reading. I wish them well and no disrespect.
I know one thing if I want to be loved on I would want to be in a room with you ex-ways.!
peace & love to everyone, I feel close to you guys, thanks for your time.
Same things- There were a myriad of components to consider.....ministry responsibilities, overseeing fellowships, individual concerns, friendships and fellow-laborers, extended family involvement, etc. etc
Those were your reasons ....
And, my next two paragraphs ADDED to the list.
Thanks for reading a portion of my post and responding, though.
I think you misread what I said actually I never spoke regarding her situation. honestly I don't know her situation except what she shared here . I don't know her or her family but just from experience most situations like this have two sides one can't assume that the first side heard is the whole story. It may be ,maybe not, until I heard both sides I would not have an opportunity to form an opinion or be of help. This is the internet again not saying that this is the case but people post lots of things not everything you read is true.
Either way the people directly involved should be the ones held responsible if it is as she stated, no one makes another abuse someone they need to be accountable for their actions. To assume that someone in another state that produced a Bible class on CD is somehow responsible for another's actions is ludicrous. I've sat through those classes and nowhere does it promote any action like the above mentioned. That being so it is improbable that it was the cause or contributing factor your reaching to place blame on the wrong place. I know a lot of people that have been involved with these same groups and classes and not one would tell you that they learned it was ok to beat their wife, husband or their dog for that matter in them. In fact this is the one and only time I have ever heard of such a thing which means it is an isolated case and something is not adding up.
Thanks for reading a portion of my post and responding, though.
Actually I read all of your post the section above I quoted applied to all people involved in leaving the way those were common to most but of course not all . Then you changed to you.( read the quotes) and your wife logically that would not apply to everyone else only to your situation so it would not be on the list that was common to all.
Amongst all of these decisions, my wife and I
And for me
That aside you make it sound like you had two choices GEER who you had a proplem with and the Way the lesser of the two evils, but in truth there were several more (groups) choices not to stay or you could do your own thing if you so desired . I'd guess that you were certainly well qualified to do that from your prior posts. Most everyone that left faced a loss of some kind like those but not limited to only those that you mentioned. Some decided that upholding scripture was worth the price some did not think it was and chose friends, a job,family and other choices.
That aside you make it sound like you had two choices GEER who you had a proplem with and the Way the lesser of the two evils, but in truth there were several more (groups) choices not to stay or you could do your own thing if you so desired . I'd guess that you were certainly well qualified to do that from your prior posts. Most everyone that left faced a loss of some kind like those but not limited to only those that you mentioned.
Some decided that upholding scripture was worth the price
some did not think it was and chose friends, a job,family and other choices.
See, that's the catch.
A lot of people did very different things, and all thought they were "upholding scripture."
And thought that they were "paying the price" to do so.
I am in no way *prosyletizing for Geer*, but he's running a business, NOT a ministry.
As soon as folks realize that, you'll see him in his true light.
He's collecting a paycheck -- nothing more.
Anyone who is *blessed* to give to him -- go right ahead.
That aside you make it sound like you had two choices GEER who you had a proplem with and the Way the lesser of the two evils, but in truth there were several more (groups) choices not to stay or you could do your own thing if you so desired .
Nope.....lots of choices.
That's why I posted....."Amongst all the decisions..."
In hindsight, I now see the bigger picture....and thank God for the decisions that I made. Lots of challenges for sure, but all things worked toward good. Everyone faces unique crossroads in life.
Word Promotions is distribution company for materials. Logically then he has no responsibility in things he has no control over. IE:some one elses fellowship.
White Dove
I think your logic needs considering in greater depth.
A distibution company that distributes materials that are written by the owner of the distribution company.
Ehrm, you might like to give that a second thought. The company's not responsible for the material, even though the owner of the company writes the materials? I think that there is a flaw in your logic somewhere.
If they were just distributing bibles, then your logic might stand. but the material being distributed is most certainly NOT independent literature. So they do have a lot of responsibility for what they are distributing.
You're telling me that he has no responsibility for what he's written? Please clarify.
quote: You're telling me that he has no responsibility for what he's written? Please clarify.
He DID clarify it; he pointed out that the guy who wrote "Purpose driven life" is not responsible for what might go on in churches that sell the book or even teach from it. Is Nietchze (sp) responsible for what Hitler did?
quote:but he's running a business, NOT a ministry
So. Some of the trinitarian type critics of TWI used to say that you can't learn about Jesus in a classroom. Same argument. Again, I say, "Why not???" If Jesus or Paul or Martin Luther had access to computers and mass production and other stuff ushered in by the 20th century technology they would have used them. What's wrong with VP moving the word through a class? What's wrong with CG moving the word through a business?
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sprawled out
gee, now i understand, tom. i didn't realize you were nobly defending a couple of nice guys. i thought you were just being an a**hole. thanks for clearing that up.
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WhiteDove
Sky to answer some of your questions:
First I don't go to a quote "Geer group fellowship" I have my own ,but I have attended at times one and some classes .
We have been through this before but looked into the license agreement for numerous reasons it did not seem like an arrangement that I could live with.
I do get his newsletter which is mailed free of charge (an expense )
I did subscribe to the Gartmore tapes and books for years which I found to be for the most part fine.
Now regarding the Geer group actually there is as I have said no group each fellowship is independently functioning ( which would explain the good ones and bad)
Word Promotions is a corporation that produces materials, books, tapes ,classes ,and such they don't run fellowships or have any governing rights in them as they are not Word Promotions to govern. Chris runs his own fellowship in which he does and is responsible there. This is the same as any Christian book sales company that sells books ie The Purpose Driven Life just because someone buys the book and uses it in their church fellowship does not make the author responsible for the actions of the group leader sorry it does not work that way. If they go psycho and kill everybody in their group the author is not responsible for the individuals actions.
These individual groups by free will have agreed to give a portion to Word Promotions to continue to produce things for them (we could debate whether that is worth the price) but their business.
Expenses- yes Word Promotions has staff and expenses for such, two in Scotland at least last I knew and I'd guess some here. yes they do have equipment but I don't have a list for you but you can probably figure it out (CD duplicating equipment ,Computers, disk imprinters, copiers, printing costs, office expenses,drambuie, mailing materials, shipping costs from Scotland for materials,and so forth.
I believe that they also pay some expenses for those helping to do research and proofing of items.
Don't know if a car or cars is included in their inventory or not - most likely I'd think.
Travel expenses - don't know for sure what is happening now with the opening of the Maine office but Chris was traveling back and forth to Scotland for a few years to the office there, man that's a commute!
Correct He is not running a counseling, fellowship ,outreach ministry like the Way.
It's pretty simple when you break it down he is producing materials for independent run fellowships that is what Word Promotions does as such. He has no responsibility for people that use his products. No more so than The Beatles had for Charles Manson when he heard voices after listening to Helter Skelter. The problem is that people seem to want to put Word Promotions into a box like other ministries it is not, and Chris has been more than clear with his intentions for what they do. It is up to the public to decide if that is something they wish to access or not.
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rascal
How could one trust the leader of a group that thought it was ok to drug teenagers for his boss`s sexual perversions?
How could one expect such as he to have even the remotest grasp on the love of God or scriptures when he so clearly despised the most important instructions for believers contained in the bible?
I think that he is a lot more sinister than someone simply producing materials for public consumption....as is evident by the fruit of those whom dilligently apply his instruction.
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Belle
I didn't have any complaints about TWI either until the scales started falling from my eyes and the oppression became too much to ignore.
Kind of reminds me of that poem by Rev. Martin Niemöller :
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Taken from Wikipedia...
**********************
With groups like TWI and CG's, it's not a question of "if" but "when", imo.
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WhiteDove
I can make no judgment upon a person based on what occurred in their past alone, people change many exway 's have done that. I have my own life to be concerned about and can't see into someone else's thoughts even if I wanted to. Apparently some people think they can! from a distance no less! WOW such talent. I find it interesting that many of those participated in similar activities and yet they somehow can deny acceptance based on the past for others. I guess they are in the same category we should not trust them either after all they marked and avoided many people and caused irrefutable damage to many.
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rascal
Who else here drugged teenagers for wierwille`s sexual use? Who here has participated in similar such activities?
You are absolutely correct Dove, we ccertainly cannot know what is in another man`s heart...that is precisely why scripures require us to examine the fruit in a man`s life and hold a leader accountable to a particularr standard...shrug
How can you construe this as denying access to others?
Has he repented? Has he apologised? Has he sought forgivness from those he harmed? All tangible indications that he might have had a change of heart.
Evidence indicates that he is still the arrogant cruel bully who committed many crimes in service to his man of God.
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pinklady
Whitedove, How about evil associations corrupt good moral? The Apostle Paul surely would not condone any corruption from those he was associated with or any that lacked intregrity!!!! Geer Has knowlege of many things that are contrary to God's word and he does not care. It is his responsbility, he is responsible for his actions or lack of proper ones. I have letters from him and from him to others where he has told believers never to contact him again, all because they wrote him about one of his liscensees, PP!! All he cares about is the money!
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Pete
I was there, my friend, I couldn't even consider that someone else might be just trying to help me - I was told that "you wouldn't drink from that glass if I told you there was poison in it, would you?". Well then, you shouldn't listen to what so 'n' so has to say then. Is that right, then! Or are you just trying to cover something up!
We have every right to ask questions, particularly on behalf of our brothers and sisters who we should rightly show a concern for. Not turn our backs and ignore where they are heading. Ezekiel Chapter 3 comes to mind. We have every right for an open and frank discussion on some of the very serious issues that have come to light. It is not "we" who are "in denial".
We have every right to ask questions and to expect that those questions be answered publicly. Not in private and "you mustn't mention this to anyone else" as is the practice in certain groups.
Yes it's OK for the people at the top to know certain things but those who are less well "initiated" mustn't know until they've "committed" themselves a bit more (not to God or Christ, by the way - they were already commited to them, maybe, from the start). No they have to commit themselves to some organisation or another. Then when they've got to a certain level where they've "got something to lose" either financially or socially, then we'll start to filter in some of the more difficult aspects of "the business" and see if they will hack it.
Here's a question I've wanted to ask for a long time and I've just got to let it go - how come TWI stepped in and tried to replace the Godly appointed ministries of two of the foremost leaders of our era: they tried to replace them with their own "organisation". An organisation that falsely claimed to have it's own ministerial appointment (the Way "ministry"). Never does the Lord operate this way - it was a big mistake and cost some people their lives. So it's not surprising that we don't want this happening again to any more of our brothers or sisters.
Oh no, you say, everything's so lovey dovey down here - well, you'd better be sure you're right because the consequences may not be happy ones.
Good job I love you all or I'd really get mean!
Is this loosely on topic, or what?
Hope you guys don't mind me blowing off a bit of steam here.
You can hack me down, now.
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WhiteDove
Rascal
Only one problem with your guilty as charged idea.
I have yet to see any indictment or verdict rendered for any such actions in a real court, the internet court does not count, sorry but this America and one is innocent until proven guilty at least in most cases. The truth is no matter how much you like or dislike someone as a person it does not validate what they say. People have reasons and issues for what they do and say that are not known to us at times. Ask Rubin Hurricane Carter who sat for years in jail for a crime he did not commit because someone accused him and was believed. Had it not been for Bob Dylan and other celebrities working to get him a new trial, he would still be sitting there today. I doubt you would want to convicted by someone's accusations and I know I would not. Come to think of it that happened once upon a time it seems.
People that hung around and believed Craig and what he said about those who had departed, sang their little songs about washing in our blood, prayed for us to die, and other such nonsense did so not because of any proof but because someone said so. Guess what? One day when they finally woke up they figured out they were wrong, and for the most part it was not because they saw from the scriptures that it was wrong and made a conscious choice because of the scriptures to leave as many before them did, but because they had got the shaft finally and had little choice. Not a admirable reason for leaving IMHO. Either way we were convicted in the court of hey I would not lie to you I'm so and so.....It didn't work out to well. I think maybe you were there.
Sorry that's to way like for me ,show me some truth before you judge someone guilty. You can believe what you want to but this is still America and inocent until proven guilty is the law.
Hurricane
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skyrider
WhiteDove,
For some of us in the 1986-88 twi era, choosing to stay with twi rather than exit their doors and follow CG (or any other group) was alot more complicated than just "believing Craig." There were a myriad of components to consider.....ministry responsibilities, overseeing fellowships, individual concerns, friendships and fellow-laborers, extended family involvement, etc. etc.
Amongst all of these decisions, my wife and I had had a few run-ins with Cgeer where "he did us dirty." He blatantly lied to cover his actions and deceive upper leadership. Suffice it to say, once bitten one is wary of the terrain where one walks.
And for me.....knowing European corps and Canadian corps who had very traumatic dealings with Geer, the many sources outside GSC have converged on a general consensus with that man. In one word ........... BEWARE.
Now then, the guy may have done a complete 180 degree turn-around since the POP paper and all that. But, IMO, he sure has taken the "corporate approach" of franchising his contracts to ex-wafers. I just don't see any resemblance to spirit-filled ministries......like Paul, Silas, Barnabus, Philip, Timothy, etc.
YMMV
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WhiteDove
Pete I don't recall saying that........ What I said was that Chris Geer does not run fellowships, Word Promotions is distribution company for materials. Logically then he has no responsibility in things he has no control over. IE:some one elses fellowship.
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WhiteDove
Agreed but those who left also had the same things to deal with. It comes down to is it what the scriptures say to do or not, all else though not maybe comfortable to experience is none the less not a sound reason to not do what the scriptures tell us. Many of them if not most had family, wives, responsibilities, no job and so forth but they did what they knew to be true walk out trusting God that he would take care of those who do what is right. Trust and Faith! Isn't that the point of all those years of Bible to learn and do the scripture. I don't think there was a but wait till I get (whatever) in there, it is not always comfortable in my experience rarely in fact that we get to continue doing what is wrong till we get setup to do right. Sorry I don't see that in the scriptures.
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skyrider
Same things??? Really?
YOU had run-ins with CGeer where he blatantly out-and-out lied?
YOU had knowledge that Geer was trying to smear your name?
YOU, years earlier, talked to the trustees about Geer's underhandedness?
With this Geer-background.......his account of wierwille's words and "last will and testament" was too hard to swallow for me. And to this day, I'm sooo glad I didn't go down the Geerite path. Seems like some are still wandering around "in the wilderness of was-geer-right?"
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WhiteDove
Same things- There were a myriad of components to consider.....ministry responsibilities, overseeing fellowships, individual concerns, friendships and fellow-laborers, extended family involvement, etc. etc
Those were your reasons why people had a excuse to stay around and cause hurt to people even though they knew that it was wrong. Those were the same things I was speaking of - your list not mine, and the Way or Geer were not the only choices either so it's not like you had to choose between the two if anyone had a personal run in with him there were some other choices rather than hanging around. How many times here have you read "I knew it was wrong but I did it because so and so told me to. I could add a few more to the list but the bottom line is none were a good reason to not do what the scripture says. As I said I don't see the scripture that says we get to continue doing what is wrong till we get setup to do right. Sorry
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alfakat
...you misunderstood me, butIseenow-- I was replying to your description of G**r as a minister, nothing personal against you...read it again that way and you will see my rant was against his methodology and way of doing things and those who buy it hook, line and sinker; not at all against you. You just happened to be the one who so aptly decribed what he do not do...thass all...
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pinklady
I am a friend of pinklady and I have been reading this and I have never been in the twi.
From my perspective, it seems as though the followers of these groups are not barring one anothers burdens. Isn't that the heart of love and why we are learning God's word? Or is it that we are "learning" so that we can make it to Heaven?
I know I want to go somewhere that my feelings matter. I wanna go where I am loved.
To the ex-way people, I feel your pain, I am a part of a family that only think about themselves, I remember one time I was hurt beyond betrayal by my husband with my little sister and my dad said "he can still come over to play cards he didn't do anything to me".
I see you people pouring out your hearts and the response I see from Dove and Johniam is cold and unfeeling. I don't know them but this is what I am reading. I wish them well and no disrespect.
I know one thing if I want to be loved on I would want to be in a room with you ex-ways.!
peace & love to everyone, I feel close to you guys, thanks for your time.
Tina
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skyrider
And, my next two paragraphs ADDED to the list.
Thanks for reading a portion of my post and responding, though.
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WhiteDove
Hey Tina friend of pink lady
I think you misread what I said actually I never spoke regarding her situation. honestly I don't know her situation except what she shared here . I don't know her or her family but just from experience most situations like this have two sides one can't assume that the first side heard is the whole story. It may be ,maybe not, until I heard both sides I would not have an opportunity to form an opinion or be of help. This is the internet again not saying that this is the case but people post lots of things not everything you read is true.
Either way the people directly involved should be the ones held responsible if it is as she stated, no one makes another abuse someone they need to be accountable for their actions. To assume that someone in another state that produced a Bible class on CD is somehow responsible for another's actions is ludicrous. I've sat through those classes and nowhere does it promote any action like the above mentioned. That being so it is improbable that it was the cause or contributing factor your reaching to place blame on the wrong place. I know a lot of people that have been involved with these same groups and classes and not one would tell you that they learned it was ok to beat their wife, husband or their dog for that matter in them. In fact this is the one and only time I have ever heard of such a thing which means it is an isolated case and something is not adding up.
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dmiller
HURRICANE
I am in no way *prosyletizing for Geer*, but he's running a business, NOT a ministry.
As soon as folks realize that, you'll see him in his true light.
He's collecting a paycheck -- nothing more.
Anyone who is *blessed* to give to him -- go right ahead.
It's yer money. Spend it where you wish.
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WhiteDove
Actually I read all of your post the section above I quoted applied to all people involved in leaving the way those were common to most but of course not all . Then you changed to you.( read the quotes) and your wife logically that would not apply to everyone else only to your situation so it would not be on the list that was common to all.
That aside you make it sound like you had two choices GEER who you had a proplem with and the Way the lesser of the two evils, but in truth there were several more (groups) choices not to stay or you could do your own thing if you so desired . I'd guess that you were certainly well qualified to do that from your prior posts. Most everyone that left faced a loss of some kind like those but not limited to only those that you mentioned. Some decided that upholding scripture was worth the price some did not think it was and chose friends, a job,family and other choices.
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WhiteDove
Exactly David it's two different things as I said. I'd have guessed you'd understand that. Some will never get it I guess.......
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WordWolf
See, that's the catch.
A lot of people did very different things, and all thought they were "upholding scripture."
And thought that they were "paying the price" to do so.
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skyrider
Nope.....lots of choices.
That's why I posted....."Amongst all the decisions..."
In hindsight, I now see the bigger picture....and thank God for the decisions that I made. Lots of challenges for sure, but all things worked toward good. Everyone faces unique crossroads in life.
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Pete
White Dove
I think your logic needs considering in greater depth.
A distibution company that distributes materials that are written by the owner of the distribution company.
Ehrm, you might like to give that a second thought. The company's not responsible for the material, even though the owner of the company writes the materials? I think that there is a flaw in your logic somewhere.
If they were just distributing bibles, then your logic might stand. but the material being distributed is most certainly NOT independent literature. So they do have a lot of responsibility for what they are distributing.
You're telling me that he has no responsibility for what he's written? Please clarify.
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johniam
quote: You're telling me that he has no responsibility for what he's written? Please clarify.
He DID clarify it; he pointed out that the guy who wrote "Purpose driven life" is not responsible for what might go on in churches that sell the book or even teach from it. Is Nietchze (sp) responsible for what Hitler did?
quote:but he's running a business, NOT a ministry
So. Some of the trinitarian type critics of TWI used to say that you can't learn about Jesus in a classroom. Same argument. Again, I say, "Why not???" If Jesus or Paul or Martin Luther had access to computers and mass production and other stuff ushered in by the 20th century technology they would have used them. What's wrong with VP moving the word through a class? What's wrong with CG moving the word through a business?
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