you can disagree, but it doesnt change what scripture says about dying and NOT going to the third heaven or earth.
No one is EVER promised to go to "heaven, heaven is above the earth, the kingdom of the LORD Jesus Christ the promised HOPE for life eternal is on earth. not heaven.
we can all chat abut what you can think what we want or what we think is better for everyone.
YET
where is the standard?
If you want DOCTRINE.. BOTTTOM line is it is written exactly what will happen to un believers and those who refuse to accept Jesus as LORD and KING>
If you got all the people believing in hell and punishment for wrong doers, you could not get an agreement among any two of them where hell is, what hell is, who is going there, what the punishment will be like, yada, yada, yada. I would bet once they started discussing particulars some would say that the guy sitting next to them would end up in hell because they didn't believe what they believed.
There are thousands of Christian religions who base their teachings on the same book. How do they all come to different conclusions?
Anyone who believes in hell please tell me who will go there and why? And then tell me what I have to do to avoid it.
Seems to me if everyone became persuaded that the true Christian doctrine was for all the unbelievers to be burned in hell, things might become a little difficult for those unbelievers before the grim reaper's visit. If unbelievers are the enemies of God, why not just clean things up a little around here. Keep them from asking hard questions, or influencing the youth... plus there's all that history in the OT of wiping out the unbelievers. Heck they even killed babies, and that was love and justice, too...stoopid unbelievers just can't see it spiritually.
Look at the contempt some people around here have had dished out at them by the 'true doctrine' believers. Imagine if those 'true believers' ran the army, the courts, the jails...
Seems to me, the fundamental Muslim's are equally convinced and perhaps even more passionate about their beliefs. So, how do you obejctively prove who is right? which book is right?
Dancing your right I hold no judgement or punishment but I happen to love the one who does . Vengence belongs to the LORD. punishment is melted out by the same.
It is a sad day indeed when the Lord commands us to love one another and we think we want HIS job to give out the reward for loving him and the punishments .
I know I do not.
been going on since the beginning of time tho.. surely YOU will not die. is what the deception was about for the first adam and what it is all about today. It causes the fall of man from the very grace of God.
Because Jesus did die for one and all.
If Im wrong and the third heaven and earth doesnt happen for me then i will turn into dust and stay there .
but if Im right I have a life ever lasting with a loving wonderful nation of people and a KINg of all KIngs . I will see and know the justice of a God almighty who reigns forever.
and those who refuse to believe will burn to ash.
The I think theory make for grand entertainment and helps the ignorant or rebellious feel ok and safe. Who can out wit and out think the creator of all?
Stayed to long i gave some scripture concerning the end times Yet consider the enitre bible is writen about the KINGdom and how to get there or not.
it is work to study and know what doctrine says.
and those who think doctrine is wrong well then welcome to yet another tv talk show on the internet with what ever will work best for you, plenty of opinions and religous chants to chose from.
Abigail
How does one "prove" a relationship"? It is a calling from a most High God to serve His people . It is the Holy Spirit that teaches us truth from error , Jesus says we need no other teacher.
quote: When I was a child, I went to a friend's church. Her minister taught fire and brimstone so vividly that I was terrified for months.
It's called mind control. Various media wants us to believe that only "cults" do this. Actually, I think TWI in the 70s was LESS guilty of this than churches.
How could Jesus possibly have died for all, when there are those who will burn to ash? For all to have a chance?
The punishment--burning eternally in hell or what ever--because, in this world of millions of beliefs, they picked the wrong one? Seems like a harsh and unloving punishment to me, especially from a loving father.
I think it is fear motivation, to keep people in a certain doctrinal frame work. Get rid of the fear motivation, then people have to erally examine their beliefs, not just accept them.
Anything can be called love or justice, but we get to decide if it is so. Some of us have seen some pretty ugly things called 'love.'
BTW, doctrine doesn't mean only Bible research doctrine, with Greek lexicons etc. There can be doctrine with no Holy Book, no scriptures, or different approaches other than the biblical research style taught in TWI.
doc·trine (dŏk'trĭn)
n.
A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent.
A statement of official government policy, especially in foreign affairs and military strategy.
Johniam, back in my first brush with TWI, the lack of hellfire was a huge influence for why I got into TWI...to be free of that doctrine/fear etc was an enormously freeing thing. Later on though, TWI figured out they needed the fear motivation to keep people hopping, so then we got the whole devil spirit possesion hell on earth view emphasised.
Fear is a powerful motivator. It is not one I respect in people or groups who use it to motivate, though I'm learning to respect my inner warning signals
ok bible doctrine I assumed you didnt need that spelled out haha
Jesus Died for all , but is a individual CHOICE to accept Him as a Saviour or not.
it is a choice bramble. My God does not dictate what His creation will chose in life or death.
people chose to make Jesus Lord or not. that is the bible story Bramble.
God does NOT write about fear as a motive , He uses the hope of the return of Jesus Christ as a motivator. to have a choice we need the options of what the choices will be! and He does give them to us as well .
the bible records of a willinginess of God to have All be saved and the HOPE of the KINGDOM being a wonderful place without the ills and errors we live within today.
God is willing to give it to you, are YOU willing to accept the call of His glory? that is the question.
it isNOT fear motivation it is pure love, it is pure rescue ! and it is not forced on you or slapped into you with fear it is simply a beautiful choice, for all of mankind.
Yes, pond, I know . Twenty years in TWI, twig coord, yeah, I remember the doctrine. I'm not talking about choosing Jesus, which according to TWI I already did and so am 'born again'.
I'm talking about hell and end times beliefs where the unbelievers 'get it'. It's a choice to believe that, too.
I'm actually surprised to find so many ex TWI's have embraced the hell/eternally punished doctrine. I would have thought the freedom of being free from it would be a strong belief, and the unbeliever simply having no more life( ala TWI) is certainly more merciful than eternal damnation etc.
Of course, the born agains aren't worried for themselves, and I guess there is a certain outlook that unbelievers are evil, enemies etc.
I do not feel that way. We can reconcile other to Jesus Christ we can teach and learn what the bible says. Bramble we can help others understand the choices and the reality of the choices.
God wants all to be saved Gods wants all to be saved God wants all to be saved!!!!!
Jesus Christ Died so we can have the choice to live forever or NOT! it is a choice.
We do NOT fight flesh and blood!!! do ya need another scripture here ?
Gods enemy is NEVER PEOPLE !!! His enemy is satan. people are HIs creation his love.
God is love. pure love so much He gave His ONLY begotten Son for US.
that is some kind of love bramble .
and the born again are concerned for one another and mankind as God is also we are commanded to LOVE by Jesus christ LOVE one another, as HE loves us.
WE can reconcile people you call them "unbelievers" back to what God says is truth. and that truth is writen in detail concerning what the choice is and will be.
if you want to say the bible is worthless, than clearly your on a different page Bramble.
people make up stuff to think about all the time! go for it. hahahaha
without a standard or real work and study it is just a open world for anything goes! have fun with that!!!
but for me I take the study honestly and seriously with prayer and HOLY Spirit within that is alive and real for every individual that believes in its comfort and wisdom.
clearly the bible speaks a great deal of instruction and teachers and learning.. it isnt a hit or miss thing it is doctrine of the bible as moved by the HOLY Spirit within each person that enables us to grow in the knowledge of who the LOrd is in our life.
to make stuff up cause you think it might be without any standard is just a partyof byob .
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dancing
I think if one person is going to hell then all are.
I also think that if one person is going to heaven then all are.
The end times..the beginning too...
for every end there is a beginning
nothing ever really dies, but transformed
even the dust
even Jesus said destroy this temple and I will raise it up
if something transforms then what it was before is not there anymore
a few cents more or less...
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templelady
Pagan is such a versatile term
Technically anyone not of your faith is a pagan
So to a Muslim all non Muslims are "pagan" To SOME Muslims all Muslims who are not the same sect of Islam are also "Pagan
To a Jew all non Jews are "pagan"="gentile" To SOME Jews all Jews who are not the same sect of Judaism are also "Pagan
To a christian all non Christians are "pagan
To SOME Christians all Christians who are not the same sect of Christianity are also "Pagan"
and so forth and so on through every religion in the world
PAGAN is just a word that really means---'
They don't believe as we do, or behave as we do--so it is okay to rob, kill, maim, or otherwise mistreat them because they deserve it
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Oakspear
...more like a misused term, Mo. :blink:
religioustolerance.org has a good list of the various definitions.
Some people use it as a pejorative, to describe "all those who ain't us"
Those of us who call ourselves pagans naturally have a different definition
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dancing
it's impossible
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pond
actualy it is love and justice to the ultimate.
you can disagree, but it doesnt change what scripture says about dying and NOT going to the third heaven or earth.
No one is EVER promised to go to "heaven, heaven is above the earth, the kingdom of the LORD Jesus Christ the promised HOPE for life eternal is on earth. not heaven.
we can all chat abut what you can think what we want or what we think is better for everyone.
YET
where is the standard?
If you want DOCTRINE.. BOTTTOM line is it is written exactly what will happen to un believers and those who refuse to accept Jesus as LORD and KING>
They will burn to ashes.
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Stayed Too Long
If you got all the people believing in hell and punishment for wrong doers, you could not get an agreement among any two of them where hell is, what hell is, who is going there, what the punishment will be like, yada, yada, yada. I would bet once they started discussing particulars some would say that the guy sitting next to them would end up in hell because they didn't believe what they believed.
There are thousands of Christian religions who base their teachings on the same book. How do they all come to different conclusions?
Anyone who believes in hell please tell me who will go there and why? And then tell me what I have to do to avoid it.
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Bramble
Good questions, Stayed Too Long.
Seems to me if everyone became persuaded that the true Christian doctrine was for all the unbelievers to be burned in hell, things might become a little difficult for those unbelievers before the grim reaper's visit. If unbelievers are the enemies of God, why not just clean things up a little around here. Keep them from asking hard questions, or influencing the youth... plus there's all that history in the OT of wiping out the unbelievers. Heck they even killed babies, and that was love and justice, too...stoopid unbelievers just can't see it spiritually.
Look at the contempt some people around here have had dished out at them by the 'true doctrine' believers. Imagine if those 'true believers' ran the army, the courts, the jails...
Rah denominations,yay schisms!
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templelady
so if pagans are pagans then are non pagans
pagan pagans???
I had too I just had too :)
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Oakspear
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dancing
hmmmm, i see pond....
and you know this Jesus Christ?
what if you are mistaken?
STL, I don'think many know what
the "Punishment" is
or "Judgement"
so they do their own
and project it on to what they think is God
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allan w.
For those interested in 'knowing'...tee hee... have a listen to Wayne Clapps teaching at CFFM..." Is hell a place of eternal torment " ?
Does Pond know this Jesus Christ ??
"Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they that testify of me"-
John 5:39
I think Ponds done a bit of that !!
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Abigail
Seems to me, the fundamental Muslim's are equally convinced and perhaps even more passionate about their beliefs. So, how do you obejctively prove who is right? which book is right?
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pond
Dancing your right I hold no judgement or punishment but I happen to love the one who does . Vengence belongs to the LORD. punishment is melted out by the same.
It is a sad day indeed when the Lord commands us to love one another and we think we want HIS job to give out the reward for loving him and the punishments .
I know I do not.
been going on since the beginning of time tho.. surely YOU will not die. is what the deception was about for the first adam and what it is all about today. It causes the fall of man from the very grace of God.
Because Jesus did die for one and all.
If Im wrong and the third heaven and earth doesnt happen for me then i will turn into dust and stay there .
but if Im right I have a life ever lasting with a loving wonderful nation of people and a KINg of all KIngs . I will see and know the justice of a God almighty who reigns forever.
and those who refuse to believe will burn to ash.
The I think theory make for grand entertainment and helps the ignorant or rebellious feel ok and safe. Who can out wit and out think the creator of all?
Stayed to long i gave some scripture concerning the end times Yet consider the enitre bible is writen about the KINGdom and how to get there or not.
it is work to study and know what doctrine says.
and those who think doctrine is wrong well then welcome to yet another tv talk show on the internet with what ever will work best for you, plenty of opinions and religous chants to chose from.
Abigail
How does one "prove" a relationship"? It is a calling from a most High God to serve His people . It is the Holy Spirit that teaches us truth from error , Jesus says we need no other teacher.
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Abigail
Ah, but pond that is subjective, not objective. I'm sure those in Al Quieda could say the same thing.
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johniam
quote: When I was a child, I went to a friend's church. Her minister taught fire and brimstone so vividly that I was terrified for months.
It's called mind control. Various media wants us to believe that only "cults" do this. Actually, I think TWI in the 70s was LESS guilty of this than churches.
Employers do this as well.
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Bramble
How could Jesus possibly have died for all, when there are those who will burn to ash? For all to have a chance?
The punishment--burning eternally in hell or what ever--because, in this world of millions of beliefs, they picked the wrong one? Seems like a harsh and unloving punishment to me, especially from a loving father.
I think it is fear motivation, to keep people in a certain doctrinal frame work. Get rid of the fear motivation, then people have to erally examine their beliefs, not just accept them.
Anything can be called love or justice, but we get to decide if it is so. Some of us have seen some pretty ugly things called 'love.'
BTW, doctrine doesn't mean only Bible research doctrine, with Greek lexicons etc. There can be doctrine with no Holy Book, no scriptures, or different approaches other than the biblical research style taught in TWI.
doc·trine (dŏk'trĭn)
n.
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Bramble
Johniam, back in my first brush with TWI, the lack of hellfire was a huge influence for why I got into TWI...to be free of that doctrine/fear etc was an enormously freeing thing. Later on though, TWI figured out they needed the fear motivation to keep people hopping, so then we got the whole devil spirit possesion hell on earth view emphasised.
Fear is a powerful motivator. It is not one I respect in people or groups who use it to motivate, though I'm learning to respect my inner warning signals
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pond
ok bible doctrine I assumed you didnt need that spelled out haha
Jesus Died for all , but is a individual CHOICE to accept Him as a Saviour or not.
it is a choice bramble. My God does not dictate what His creation will chose in life or death.
people chose to make Jesus Lord or not. that is the bible story Bramble.
God does NOT write about fear as a motive , He uses the hope of the return of Jesus Christ as a motivator. to have a choice we need the options of what the choices will be! and He does give them to us as well .
the bible records of a willinginess of God to have All be saved and the HOPE of the KINGDOM being a wonderful place without the ills and errors we live within today.
God is willing to give it to you, are YOU willing to accept the call of His glory? that is the question.
it isNOT fear motivation it is pure love, it is pure rescue ! and it is not forced on you or slapped into you with fear it is simply a beautiful choice, for all of mankind.
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Bramble
Yes, pond, I know . Twenty years in TWI, twig coord, yeah, I remember the doctrine. I'm not talking about choosing Jesus, which according to TWI I already did and so am 'born again'.
I'm talking about hell and end times beliefs where the unbelievers 'get it'. It's a choice to believe that, too.
I'm actually surprised to find so many ex TWI's have embraced the hell/eternally punished doctrine. I would have thought the freedom of being free from it would be a strong belief, and the unbeliever simply having no more life( ala TWI) is certainly more merciful than eternal damnation etc.
Of course, the born agains aren't worried for themselves, and I guess there is a certain outlook that unbelievers are evil, enemies etc.
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dancing
that's the thing ain't it
doctrine
yeah
throw that one out and think would be a good thing
and pond, i see the spirit 'falling' on people
and other like phrases
nothing about anyone choosing Jesus as Lord
choices are to think logically or not
with the ability to let us be shown by him
the new testament says no man need teach it to you
must be another way to see it i'd say
even more then one way to see
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pond
I do not feel that way. We can reconcile other to Jesus Christ we can teach and learn what the bible says. Bramble we can help others understand the choices and the reality of the choices.
God wants all to be saved Gods wants all to be saved God wants all to be saved!!!!!
Jesus Christ Died so we can have the choice to live forever or NOT! it is a choice.
We do NOT fight flesh and blood!!! do ya need another scripture here ?
Gods enemy is NEVER PEOPLE !!! His enemy is satan. people are HIs creation his love.
God is love. pure love so much He gave His ONLY begotten Son for US.
that is some kind of love bramble .
and the born again are concerned for one another and mankind as God is also we are commanded to LOVE by Jesus christ LOVE one another, as HE loves us.
WE can reconcile people you call them "unbelievers" back to what God says is truth. and that truth is writen in detail concerning what the choice is and will be.
if you want to say the bible is worthless, than clearly your on a different page Bramble.
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dancing
a choice that has already been made by Jesus Christ
done deal, savior of all especially those who believe
believe what..haha..there's the thing about it
it is always on the move, that spirit is still moving
done deal - already over with
seeing it is another story
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pond
Sure dancing
people make up stuff to think about all the time! go for it. hahahaha
without a standard or real work and study it is just a open world for anything goes! have fun with that!!!
but for me I take the study honestly and seriously with prayer and HOLY Spirit within that is alive and real for every individual that believes in its comfort and wisdom.
clearly the bible speaks a great deal of instruction and teachers and learning.. it isnt a hit or miss thing it is doctrine of the bible as moved by the HOLY Spirit within each person that enables us to grow in the knowledge of who the LOrd is in our life.
to make stuff up cause you think it might be without any standard is just a partyof byob .
have fun with that!
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dancing
so you are saving yourself by your own work?
hmmm - make up stuff....
where does this making come from?
are you to judge what i have said or is another in charge?
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