As I understand the story, the devil used to be an angel, an arch angel, and one day (before there were days) he (before there were "he's") decided to try and overthrow his creator and take charge. There was a battle in heaven and Lucifer was cast out somewhere....down.....here.
As it's generally told, lucifer was one of three angels placed in authority over the others,
and of the three, he was the pre-eminent one, God's "right-hand man",
the bright and morning star.
He was smart, persuasive, good-looking, and influential.
And he became enthralled with his OWN greatness, and decided that his OWN will be done,
and that he deserved the WHOLE show rather than be the Executive Vice-President and
Chief-of-Operations.
Thus he put his persuasive "speech" to work, and convinced his 1/3 to rebel against the status quo
and the Almighty. They waged war, and lost, and were thrown to the earth.
(This puts him in the same place he later is claimed to interfere with Eden.)
So I was thinking.....does this make sense?
Well, if our positions were reversed, I doubt I would have made such a move.
I've never been arrogant enough to think I wasn't capable of being smacked down-
there's always a bigger fish. Further, he met God Almighty directly and still decided he
himself knew better.
I've seen arrogant people consider themselves "above the law" and decide the rules apply to
everyone BUT THEM plenty of times. That's an OLD story, frankly.
Plus, it's been said that-no matter the system-there will always be malcontents.
The angel Lucifer, having free will, DECIDEDS to try and take God's place at the "throne" and now is evil. Pure evil. What once had free will, is now only darkness and only evil. The devil doesn't seem to have the capacity to do good, to DECIDE to do good. Everything evil is attributed to him. He has no other desire than to thwart the things of God. All that was once good in him is now gone for eternity.
This doesn't seem reasonable or logical to me.
That's because it's grossly oversimplified.
He decided to take God's place at the "throne", true.
He decided he should become God. We judge that evil. (Well, I judge that evil, anyway.)
He decided to actively oppose God, and work to overthrow his established order, and to frustrate
his plans and derange his people.
Some of his plans or SUSPECTED plans include the Fall of Man,
an attempt to wipe out the Christ-line by polluting all bloodlines,
an attempt to wipe out humanity,
various plans to crush Israel,
corruption of all humanity,
corruption of the leaders of Israel,
corruption of God's spokesmen for Israel,
the death of the Messiah at various times,
the subversion of the Messiah into his own agent,
and attempts to subvert Christianity into his own agency and so on.
His methods of executing his plans are varied, but involve a few common threads.
They involve his OWN order, set in opposition to the order set in place by God.
They involve dismissing ANY and ALL utterances of God.
And so on.
Does his EVERY action radiate "eeeee--vvviiiillll"?
No. Some of it may look completely innocuous-until it's seen as a necessary part of a
framework designed to oppose God. He also takes a longer view than just the sort
of "smash-and-grab" of a common street-criminal or mugger.
(Although he will use them as well...)
If I were to consider him "the opposite of God", I might support the idea that their
power-levels and intellects were in some way comparable.
I think he considers himself in that category.
I think his intentions often overlap what we consider "evil".
I think evil actions and evil intent generally serve his purposes-
especially since his purposes include "cause trouble."
1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. 5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 9And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 10For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 11And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 12And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 13And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
How many people were in the wilderness?
Chapter 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Dispater --the continental gods did not always fit so neatly into the Roman pantheon. Dispater was an underworld god but the underworld was not a 'bad' place, because Dispater was also a continenetal ancestor god of the Gauls(contenental Celts.) He shares fetility and death characteristics with Cernunos. Dispater's consort Aerecura/ Heracura/ Prosperina, who in some aspects/places was a consort of the horned god...There is also a sky god earth mother,aspect.
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” (Hamlet, I.v)
Paraphrased: There are things that science and rationality cannot explain (Horatio's philosophy being a scholarly one)
(The above lifted from an internet critique of Shakespeare’s Hamlet)
Seems to me that there are things that cannot be explained also in the Bible. My view is that the Bible gives us enough for what we need to run our lives in the here and now. A bit of ancient history, a bit of more modern history (OT), a peep into the future (Revelation), and a lot of stuff about how to live in our time. There is enough to chew on in what is written in the Bible. It doesn’t purport to tell us everything about the universe since … since when?
Science is for ever making new discoveries. Things like “black holes” and the “big bang” and other enormous and significant astronomical “discoveries” and theories have been made in comparatively recent times. Black holes have only been speculated about since the late 60s and Big Bang theory just a little later, early 70s, yet everyone “knows” about them. Black holes and Big Bang theory are now accepted by all astronomers and physicists, but 100 years ago, who would have a clue?
There is so much available to know about. We simply do not have the comprehension or understanding to grasp more than a fragment of it. So God has kindly written us a book so that we can know sufficient. It contains all that pertains to life and godliness that we need to know, now. (That would be an “all” with distinction.)
If the Bible had contained more, people would have screwed it up even more (even more denominations). Without making any criticism of any denomination or group: right now on this earth we have people calling themselves Christians and following OT-style, gospel-style, grace and Revelation ways of living and all convinced that is the way they/we should be living - or even, that is the administration (excuse the Wayspeak) in which we are living. Happily we do not have a Biblical “outer space” way of living (well, some folk are “out there” but that’s not what I mean).
There’s a lot of stuff that has happened and that is to happen that we simply cannot know about right now. Astronomy and other sciences cannot supply the answers and the Bible is silent.
This is a most interesting and not irrelevant thread (and we do have the privilege of discussing it! TWI had no answers, none obvious, anyway).
It’s clear that God is only one of many spirit beings but where they came from or how they came to exist is far from clear. It’s also clear that spirit beings have what we call free will, but maybe for a spirit being it is something different. Much more than that remains to be learned well in the future. Hard to sort out the figures of speech from what is literally meant, as some of WordWolf’s posts have indicated.
We can speculate all we like about where the Devil came from, and how he/it got to be as evil as he/it is. Perhaps God omitted that bit from the Bible on purpose. Just like there were many things that were hidden from OT believers but are now made known in our administration.
By the by, Allan’s analogy of the Black Thread sounds just about right. The secret of his success is the secrecy of his moves, and all that.
"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him,
'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13"You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14"You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15"You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16"By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.'"
Someone may of course say "this says it's about the king of Tyre. Any other possibility is precluded."
Well, it's not quite that simple.
This supposed "man" has some even MORE peculiar properties.
He was in EDEN, THE GARDEN OF GOD.
Only 2 humans were said to have been there, and they died.
Might this not be a description of someone who is not human?
He "walked in the midst of the stones of fire."
This might mean magma or lava, or might not. Either way, strange
for a human, no matter what it means.
Finally, he's called a "cherub."(Twice.) Maybe I missed something, but I thought the
only "cherubs" are either angels or stylistic depictions OF angels.
Is this all about the literal King of Tyre? You make up your own mind;
I think it's clear there's more to this account than just a message to an overproud king.
(Ok, that's not everyting, but that's a beginning.)
You've raised some very valid points, WW, for reconsidering the angelic connection to the figure of the king of Tyre.
However, what I also find interesting when rereading this section now, if supposing this figure is Lucifer or Satan, is how little this depiction actually seems to support the old "gap" chronology promoted by Wierwille,
that Satan's fall had occurred somewhere between Gen.1:1 and 1:2, if indeed, Satan's glory, beauty and perfection was obvious "in EDEN, the GARDEN OF GOD".
Great posts, Sir! I find the notion of a literal god and literal devil duking it out in heaven hard to understand. Think about it, how could an all knowing and all powerful God lose? And if we can recognize an all knowing and all powerful being whom we cannot even see, surely the devil would know he cannot win such a battle! But even more important still, God could win it in the wink of an eye and has no need to drag it out for years and years.
But say there is a good and valid reason for why God drags this battle with the devil out. What do we have to fear from the devil, really? Why even pay the devil heed, if we already know who will come out victorious? Do we not glorify the devil by attributing so much power to him? by fearing him, worrying about him, or even allowing our thoughts to dwell on him for more than the briefest of moments? What benefit is there to this notion of a devil?
I very much believe the battle is within. It is our own internal battle of good and evil. Of discerning when something is good or evil and what makes it so. Isn't it Romans that says all things are good, but to him who deems it sin it is sin? I would even take it a step further and say the battle is not one of good and evil or love and hate, but one of ignorance and wisdom. Further still, I would suggest that even when we seeminly lose a battle, we gain wisdom and thus ultimately come out victorious.
often makes me wonder if those warnings against "doctrines of devils" have been misunderstood
compare "love your enemy" vs "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" vs "the devil is the author of death"
...
and i tell ya
it is rapidly becoming clearer to me
how this modern devil is mostly being defined along purely racial lines
especially for this wave of twi-like evangelical christian thought
no, its not by what race a person is
but by what races and traditions are deemed to have been holy enough to connect with God
and which ones were duped by the devil
what makes it worse is not only that this mindset is mostly programmed to NOT look into those things they condemn for fear of being contaminated....but that it is also hellbent on conversion
It seems to me, we have two lines of thought going here. Those who believe in God, Christ, and the existence of Lucifer - or Satan. Those who believe the Bible is a book of prophecy - past, present and future. Those who believe God is unfolding his perfect plan for restoration of things that were marred and corrupted, with a goal of restoration back to the perfection of pre Gen. 1:1.
He has offered us the grace of being a new creation in the coming perfection.
What seems like a long time, or that its taking a long time, is to God a drop in the bucket of eternity - its a blink of an eye.
We also have those, who think this is all nice superstition, but perfection is to be found within ourselves. We have no need of a savior, because, its all within, the spark of the divine and the poetry of it. Its nice, its lovely, its flowy, flowery and pretty, we can be as gods. But, you still have a decision to make.
Satan was humiliated for all angels and the universe to see in Gen 1:2. Whatever catastrophe he and his minions created on the earth - it was so terrible God had to destroy it.
God then says to him, you're so great and powerful - fix it! Restore the earth, bring back the light - recreate it.
He couldn't - what humiliation, what a loser - and all the angels now knew it.
Now, God puts the earth back, and its given to this man - this puny man made out of clay? How dare God. So, he goes and gets it back from Adam.
The Bible says the whole world lies in wickedness (it is Satan's realm).
That word "Lies" is like a mother holds a child in her arms.
Satan doesn't care about mankind in general, they're alreay his, he hates them, they're just cannon fodder for his destructive plans, they are nestled in his breast - so to speak. Satan cares only about those that are God's and Christs - or will be. You can find him in church. Or anywhere people are looking for God.
Yes, some of us believe God has a plan.
You of the flowery speech may think we're idiots - so be it.
Sunesis, first and foremost, I never said ANYONE was an idiot. I do have difficulty making sense out of certain doctrines and beliefs, but that does not mean I believe the person who adheres to them is an idiot.
Beyond that, within the lines of this thread there are far more options then a) "Those who believe in God, Christ, and the existence of Lucifer - or Satan. . . " or b) "We also have those, who think this is all nice superstition, but perfection is to be found within ourselves"
In fact, knowing what I believe far better than anyone else would know about what I believe; and having read Clay and Sir's posts for quite a long time, I would say none of us would classify ourselves in either of the two options you lay out.
I don't believe the Bible is merely a bunch of superstitions. I also don't adhere to Christianity or a number of the doctrines laid out within Christianity (although there are also a great number I do agree with). I don't believe I am now or ever was the property of satan, or born into sin. In fact, God says I was awesomely and wonderfully made - how can what God says is awesomely and wonderfully made be born into sin? Strikes me as a contradiction. Therefore, I do not believe I need a savior in the Christian sense of the word.
However, I do believe there is a God. I do believe within the pages of the Bible one can find a history of humanity, as well as God's desires for us, the information one needs to develop a relationship with God, and instructions on how to live a good life. The within part has to do with the internal struggles I face, some of which may or may not be similar to the internal struggles you face, or Sir faces, or Clay faces, etc. From that struggle we learn (and I mean really learn, internally in our hearts and minds) the things God put us on this earth to learn.
The concept of that internal struggle is also found within the pages of the NT. Does not Paul speak of that which he would not do, but does; and that which he would do, but does not? Is that not an internal struggle? Where does one struggle with their "personal advesary?" Do they fight with fists and weapons? Or do they fight with thoughts and decisions that they act or do not act upon?
You see the devil as literal, I see the devil as figurative. However, either way, I think both sets of beliefs hold to the notion that we struggle against something, no? What is it that we struggle against?
You believe you are perfected in Christ, yes? Yet you would also acknowledge that you still struggle either way, yes? The difference, perhaps, is that I don't believe it is Christ that perfects me, but it is the struggle itself that perfects me.
You of the flowery speech may think we're idiots - so be it.
Sunesis, that's uncalled for.
First, who is calling those who believe the bible idiots? It's not a large thread, and about 1/3 of the posts are jokes about the devil in a blue dress or playing a fiddle in Georgia :blink: so they shouldn't be hard to find.
Bramble and I gave our opinions from a pagan POV, Abigail from a Jewish POV, Wordwolf gave some good reasons for his POV. Everybody appeared to acting civilly
Speaking just for myself, I don't consider the bible believers idiots, I just don't believe what you do.
But you chose to paint other posters as those speaking forth flowery (do you imply emptiness with the floweriness?)
And no, I don't, from my POV have a decision to make. I don't have to decide to follow either a god or a devil that I don't believe exists.
This doesn't have to be a fight, it can be a discussion.
Back to this devil concept again. I think one of the other differences between how Judaism deals with adversity v what we were taught in TWI, is that in TWI we were always supposed to be fighting against the devil, resiting him, etc.
From a Jewish perspective, all things that exist were created by God, therefore nothing can be truly evil. Even the enemy of death has an ultimate higher purpose in that it brings us to the possibility of the next life on a higher level of existence. The Chassidics teach that we all live for the exact amount of time we were meant to live - the amount of time needed to learn what we need to learn and to teach what we need to teach.
In TWI we were often taught that if bad things happened - sickness, finacial troubles, whatever, it was because we were "off the Word", we "blew it" - it was always our fault and it was always a very negative thing. Now certainly, often times when bad things happen they are the natural consequence of a poor choice. But there are also many times when ".... just happens". But in either situation, Judaism seeks to find the higher purpose - the lesson to be learned - growth from within. Unlike TWI, which simpy sought to condemn us for allowing the devil to trick us.
So, from that perspective, even IF there were a devil, he would not be viewed as pure evil and would not be feared.
yet, by god's grace we are also somehow holy little children
foolish, grubby, gibbering idiots, really
who will never know or understand the entire truth
in spite of all our learning
thank God its all ultimately an ongoing mystery
so anyway...cuz were all pretty much specs of beings
in a really huge huge huge vast vast vast universe beyond any of our ability to measure and experience
where the ultimate truth of everything is always pretty much always going to be out of our reach
the devil knows it, too
and so does God
and Jesus
and all the angels
and spirits of the four corners of the earth
the living beings that go round and round
yada yada yada
we are doomed, again
lost and broken
as usual
from the start
from the very first human up til now
suffering and misery always with us
lost and broken again
our hope is to remember what that kid taught those people
plodding towards visions of a better future
hoping we can reunite with our loved ones who have died
so, the numbering of our years are based on the life of a man named jesus
a jewish kid who lived and died a radically tragic life in a way that many wise prophetic people predicted would some day just have to happen, no matter what
and so he showed us an even deeper way of courage and being that actually really truly honestly trancended death for really really really real
one that surpassed the wisdom of anything that any king or wise man had ever known or done or seen
he showed us the most direct way to god while he was alive
and by his dying
and his rebirth
yada yada yada
he taught actual spiritual practices according to the traditions of all the wise
east and west, north and south, old and new
and took them higher, wider, deeper, longer
and as we know, he had very little to do with any of it
his life was in complete surrender to god
in all ways
to the best of his ability
and he demonstrated how the devil is defeated...from within...where God whom is everywhere also is
in short, something about everything on earth changed...big time
and nothing has ever been the same again
the name of jesus is now everywhere, even more
and coming again, even greater than before
yep...i am with you 100% still
and yeah...there is a stubborn and elusive force in this planet
and most likely throughout the universe
that causes all suffering
each of our lives is really just a wound
a tear...a rip in the fabric of god
our life depends on how we get free from our slumber and choose the right way to eternal life
...
it seems to seem to me
that of the billions and billions of books of books of pages of pages of lines upon lines of stuff about the devil, darkness and the nature of evil...
also a lot of them on healing, nature, medicine, sexuality, morality, virtue, wisdom, marriage
etc...
as well as on the nature of God, Eternal life, Christ, Heaven, Truth, Love, Spirits, angels, etc...
writings about reality itself, time beyond time, dying, sickness, music, motherhood, birth, etc...
spiritual disciples who follow masters and form schools of thought
abraham is the father of most all old religious traditions
the jew, the muslim, the hindu, the buddhist
and jesus practiced these things
and lived and travelled in a world where these things were practiced as an art form and lifestyle
devotional, monkish life of vows and really strange strange behaviour, by most all conventional standards
of course, what and how he practiced was important
but why was most important of all
...
my point, i guess, is trying to be...
that we probably actually do not disagree about the value of that collection of book of books of books
but i am afraid that they are truer than you seem to think i think they are
and that the modern way we have come to practice what we call christianity
is about as unlike and far away from original christianity as one can get
scripturally, historically, anthropologically...
in terms of what is actually being practiced as a lifestyle
and what the stories are describing
not saying i am perfect
i am a fool like you...remember?
which is perfect enough for me
cuz we are kinda stuck in this much different world together
and this world is radically different place
and christ and god the devil are about as radically alive and well as they ever were
and that war rages greater than ever now
on in our hearts and minds
this world cannot last like this
yet here we are
waiting for the Spirit of Christ to come and guide us again
in a much bigger and better way than ever ever before
from a much much higher place
where it has been waiting and preparing for a long long time
on a much much bigger set of clocks and gears
...
and so i wonder
how many lines of thought are really going on here?
2?
i count at least 10 lines
in each of us, to some depths or degrees
in each of us...as radically amazing beings
even in our obvious and ongoing idiocies and sillinesses....
dazzling with light, even in death
whether we know it or not
god and spirit are that friggin stubborn and in charge, imho
so
just exhale
and be silent a while
that is what the kid said his students should do
when everyone was wiggin out about the crazy drama of his death
breathe....
and sit for days
you will see if you believe me
you will not die if you follow my ways
and in time...you will find the treasure you have been seeking all along
the theme of this kind of teaching
was after the order of abraham
the bull
and so...it becomes obvious when the teachings of abraham are not somehow being lived
because people are more afraid, angry, sick, lives haunted by devils and demons
I don't think I've been rude or insulting on this thread. If I wanted to be rude, I could, I know how. I doubt that I would use the word idiot.
I saw no one fighting. I didn't see people agreeing either, but that is to be expected.
I see no value in fighting about beliefs, because no one can ever win. I stated my thoughts which differs from yours, so what? Do you find just hearing about different beliefs and thoughts threatening?
I am not here to convert anyone or to be converted. I come here because I find the subject matter interesting, and often someone will post something that helps me understand certain things about life and people or myself deeper.
Can we agree that it either wasn't true, or that if it was true, it's not worth devoting any more time to?
Okay with me
I was looking at that section in Isaiah again, where the name "Lucifer" is used.
If I recall correctly, Isaiah was written just before Israel was defeated and carried off to Babylon.
Isa 14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
A prophecy of the future: God's not going to allow the captivity to last forever.
Isa 14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, [and] the sceptre of the rulers.
Isa 14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth.
Isa 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing.
Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Up to this point, I don't see where there is any reason to suppose that this is anything but the king of babylon we're talking about.
Isa 14:12 ¶ How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how]art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
This is where (IMHO) one has to decide whether this section is literally talking about the Babylonian King, or Satan. One way or another figurative language is being employed. This could be referring to how lofty a spot the king of Babylon fell from by way of hyperbole, or literally to Satan. Although at the time that this was written there was no other verses to to back up Satan falling from heaven (In Job he still has access to heaven)
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and]consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, [even] all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, [and as] the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, [and] slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Isa 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
Isa 14:22 ¶ For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
Isa 14:23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
There is nothing that I can see in these verses that solidly indicates that this is talking about Satan.
When was it decided that this did refer to Satan? Was it ever viwed that way in pre-Christian times? Did the Church Fathers view it that way?
In short, was that section always looked at as obviously referring to Satan, or did that position evolve?
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WordWolf
As it's generally told, lucifer was one of three angels placed in authority over the others,
and of the three, he was the pre-eminent one, God's "right-hand man",
the bright and morning star.
He was smart, persuasive, good-looking, and influential.
And he became enthralled with his OWN greatness, and decided that his OWN will be done,
and that he deserved the WHOLE show rather than be the Executive Vice-President and
Chief-of-Operations.
Thus he put his persuasive "speech" to work, and convinced his 1/3 to rebel against the status quo
and the Almighty. They waged war, and lost, and were thrown to the earth.
(This puts him in the same place he later is claimed to interfere with Eden.)
Well, if our positions were reversed, I doubt I would have made such a move.I've never been arrogant enough to think I wasn't capable of being smacked down-
there's always a bigger fish. Further, he met God Almighty directly and still decided he
himself knew better.
I've seen arrogant people consider themselves "above the law" and decide the rules apply to
everyone BUT THEM plenty of times. That's an OLD story, frankly.
Plus, it's been said that-no matter the system-there will always be malcontents.
That's because it's grossly oversimplified.
He decided to take God's place at the "throne", true.
He decided he should become God. We judge that evil. (Well, I judge that evil, anyway.)
He decided to actively oppose God, and work to overthrow his established order, and to frustrate
his plans and derange his people.
Some of his plans or SUSPECTED plans include the Fall of Man,
an attempt to wipe out the Christ-line by polluting all bloodlines,
an attempt to wipe out humanity,
various plans to crush Israel,
corruption of all humanity,
corruption of the leaders of Israel,
corruption of God's spokesmen for Israel,
the death of the Messiah at various times,
the subversion of the Messiah into his own agent,
and attempts to subvert Christianity into his own agency and so on.
His methods of executing his plans are varied, but involve a few common threads.
They involve his OWN order, set in opposition to the order set in place by God.
They involve dismissing ANY and ALL utterances of God.
And so on.
Does his EVERY action radiate "eeeee--vvviiiillll"?
No. Some of it may look completely innocuous-until it's seen as a necessary part of a
framework designed to oppose God. He also takes a longer view than just the sort
of "smash-and-grab" of a common street-criminal or mugger.
(Although he will use them as well...)
If I were to consider him "the opposite of God", I might support the idea that their
power-levels and intellects were in some way comparable.
I think he considers himself in that category.
I think his intentions often overlap what we consider "evil".
I think evil actions and evil intent generally serve his purposes-
especially since his purposes include "cause trouble."
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dancing
Yes, and there was a war in heaven...
1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. 5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 9And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 10For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 11And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 12And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 13And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
How many people were in the wilderness?
Chapter 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
The Woman is the Spirit.
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allan w.
Sorry, I must have missed something...the woman is what spirit ??
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dancing
you miss a lot of things allan
not my fault
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Bramble
Dispater --the continental gods did not always fit so neatly into the Roman pantheon. Dispater was an underworld god but the underworld was not a 'bad' place, because Dispater was also a continenetal ancestor god of the Gauls(contenental Celts.) He shares fetility and death characteristics with Cernunos. Dispater's consort Aerecura/ Heracura/ Prosperina, who in some aspects/places was a consort of the horned god...There is also a sky god earth mother,aspect.
http://www.worldspirituality.org/gods-of-gaul.html
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Twinky
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” (Hamlet, I.v)
Paraphrased: There are things that science and rationality cannot explain (Horatio's philosophy being a scholarly one)
(The above lifted from an internet critique of Shakespeare’s Hamlet)
Seems to me that there are things that cannot be explained also in the Bible. My view is that the Bible gives us enough for what we need to run our lives in the here and now. A bit of ancient history, a bit of more modern history (OT), a peep into the future (Revelation), and a lot of stuff about how to live in our time. There is enough to chew on in what is written in the Bible. It doesn’t purport to tell us everything about the universe since … since when?
Science is for ever making new discoveries. Things like “black holes” and the “big bang” and other enormous and significant astronomical “discoveries” and theories have been made in comparatively recent times. Black holes have only been speculated about since the late 60s and Big Bang theory just a little later, early 70s, yet everyone “knows” about them. Black holes and Big Bang theory are now accepted by all astronomers and physicists, but 100 years ago, who would have a clue?
There is so much available to know about. We simply do not have the comprehension or understanding to grasp more than a fragment of it. So God has kindly written us a book so that we can know sufficient. It contains all that pertains to life and godliness that we need to know, now. (That would be an “all” with distinction.)
If the Bible had contained more, people would have screwed it up even more (even more denominations). Without making any criticism of any denomination or group: right now on this earth we have people calling themselves Christians and following OT-style, gospel-style, grace and Revelation ways of living and all convinced that is the way they/we should be living - or even, that is the administration (excuse the Wayspeak) in which we are living. Happily we do not have a Biblical “outer space” way of living (well, some folk are “out there” but that’s not what I mean).
There’s a lot of stuff that has happened and that is to happen that we simply cannot know about right now. Astronomy and other sciences cannot supply the answers and the Bible is silent.
This is a most interesting and not irrelevant thread (and we do have the privilege of discussing it! TWI had no answers, none obvious, anyway).
It’s clear that God is only one of many spirit beings but where they came from or how they came to exist is far from clear. It’s also clear that spirit beings have what we call free will, but maybe for a spirit being it is something different. Much more than that remains to be learned well in the future. Hard to sort out the figures of speech from what is literally meant, as some of WordWolf’s posts have indicated.
We can speculate all we like about where the Devil came from, and how he/it got to be as evil as he/it is. Perhaps God omitted that bit from the Bible on purpose. Just like there were many things that were hidden from OT believers but are now made known in our administration.
By the by, Allan’s analogy of the Black Thread sounds just about right. The secret of his success is the secrecy of his moves, and all that.
Great thread, this. Thought-provoking.
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sirguessalot
yeah..the war in heaven rages on...within
...no doubt
but if some of the titanic battles of Rev are somehow in our mind
does that make the scripture less important?
does that make the battle less significant?
does that make the devil any less real?
does that kake God any less real?
depends on how much we value we place on our very own interior selves, i suppose
and whether we think our mind is "just a brain"
nice comparison, Dancing
seems there was a war in heaven fought in the wilderness that day, fer sure
i can imagine that if everyone in the world is fighting that battle...within
and everyone who ever lived is fighting that battle...within
one could also write of the devil as an actual being
who walks the earth
and gives us hell
yada yada
one could say that all human ills are due to this rascal
and not be lying
after all, this "most naked snake" is not a problem til man shows up
one could say that guardian angels try to protect us from this rascal
and not be lying
maybe the greater problem is not when there is battle in heaven (within us)
but when we are not even fighting putting up the fight
because we wage our war on earth (without us)
...shadow boxing
perhaps one of the great illusions we must each get through
is that there our greatest personal adversary is somewhere outside of us
and until i do, the earth will be subject to this most destructive unseen foe
while the very one capable of defeating him is asleep at the wheel
which is why they all say "turn around"
repent
the path is very very very narrow
for each and every one of us
and just like the kid said...
it is the same path by which we came from God
simply turn around
(no, not your body)
do not fear the darkness...within
for in doing so, you yourself manifest that very darkness
so shine a light...within
seek out and reveal the enemy of God where he lives
and stop being fooled by him
of course,
the shift from "the devil only outside"
to "the devil on every inside"
is a dramatic one
much like a birth
that breaks hearts of stone and pride into pieces
no wonder when a bunch of people go from outwardness to inwardness at once
their dreams and visions tend to open up and intensify
...simply for having ignored their own interior for so long
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sirguessalot
i imagine there are quite a few old jewish folks who just sit back and scratch their heads
not only wondering how we can became so metaphorically challenged
but watching in awe at how much human suffering such a thing can cause
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TheInvisibleDan
You've raised some very valid points, WW, for reconsidering the angelic connection to the figure of the king of Tyre.
However, what I also find interesting when rereading this section now, if supposing this figure is Lucifer or Satan, is how little this depiction actually seems to support the old "gap" chronology promoted by Wierwille,
that Satan's fall had occurred somewhere between Gen.1:1 and 1:2, if indeed, Satan's glory, beauty and perfection was obvious "in EDEN, the GARDEN OF GOD".
Danny
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Abigail
Great posts, Sir! I find the notion of a literal god and literal devil duking it out in heaven hard to understand. Think about it, how could an all knowing and all powerful God lose? And if we can recognize an all knowing and all powerful being whom we cannot even see, surely the devil would know he cannot win such a battle! But even more important still, God could win it in the wink of an eye and has no need to drag it out for years and years.
But say there is a good and valid reason for why God drags this battle with the devil out. What do we have to fear from the devil, really? Why even pay the devil heed, if we already know who will come out victorious? Do we not glorify the devil by attributing so much power to him? by fearing him, worrying about him, or even allowing our thoughts to dwell on him for more than the briefest of moments? What benefit is there to this notion of a devil?
I very much believe the battle is within. It is our own internal battle of good and evil. Of discerning when something is good or evil and what makes it so. Isn't it Romans that says all things are good, but to him who deems it sin it is sin? I would even take it a step further and say the battle is not one of good and evil or love and hate, but one of ignorance and wisdom. Further still, I would suggest that even when we seeminly lose a battle, we gain wisdom and thus ultimately come out victorious.
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sirguessalot
yeah...
superstition = fear of devils
often makes me wonder if those warnings against "doctrines of devils" have been misunderstood
compare "love your enemy" vs "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" vs "the devil is the author of death"
...
and i tell ya
it is rapidly becoming clearer to me
how this modern devil is mostly being defined along purely racial lines
especially for this wave of twi-like evangelical christian thought
no, its not by what race a person is
but by what races and traditions are deemed to have been holy enough to connect with God
and which ones were duped by the devil
what makes it worse is not only that this mindset is mostly programmed to NOT look into those things they condemn for fear of being contaminated....but that it is also hellbent on conversion
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Sunesis
It seems to me, we have two lines of thought going here. Those who believe in God, Christ, and the existence of Lucifer - or Satan. Those who believe the Bible is a book of prophecy - past, present and future. Those who believe God is unfolding his perfect plan for restoration of things that were marred and corrupted, with a goal of restoration back to the perfection of pre Gen. 1:1.
He has offered us the grace of being a new creation in the coming perfection.
What seems like a long time, or that its taking a long time, is to God a drop in the bucket of eternity - its a blink of an eye.
We also have those, who think this is all nice superstition, but perfection is to be found within ourselves. We have no need of a savior, because, its all within, the spark of the divine and the poetry of it. Its nice, its lovely, its flowy, flowery and pretty, we can be as gods. But, you still have a decision to make.
Satan was humiliated for all angels and the universe to see in Gen 1:2. Whatever catastrophe he and his minions created on the earth - it was so terrible God had to destroy it.
God then says to him, you're so great and powerful - fix it! Restore the earth, bring back the light - recreate it.
He couldn't - what humiliation, what a loser - and all the angels now knew it.
Now, God puts the earth back, and its given to this man - this puny man made out of clay? How dare God. So, he goes and gets it back from Adam.
The Bible says the whole world lies in wickedness (it is Satan's realm).
That word "Lies" is like a mother holds a child in her arms.
Satan doesn't care about mankind in general, they're alreay his, he hates them, they're just cannon fodder for his destructive plans, they are nestled in his breast - so to speak. Satan cares only about those that are God's and Christs - or will be. You can find him in church. Or anywhere people are looking for God.
Yes, some of us believe God has a plan.
You of the flowery speech may think we're idiots - so be it.
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Abigail
Sunesis, first and foremost, I never said ANYONE was an idiot. I do have difficulty making sense out of certain doctrines and beliefs, but that does not mean I believe the person who adheres to them is an idiot.
Beyond that, within the lines of this thread there are far more options then a) "Those who believe in God, Christ, and the existence of Lucifer - or Satan. . . " or b) "We also have those, who think this is all nice superstition, but perfection is to be found within ourselves"
In fact, knowing what I believe far better than anyone else would know about what I believe; and having read Clay and Sir's posts for quite a long time, I would say none of us would classify ourselves in either of the two options you lay out.
I don't believe the Bible is merely a bunch of superstitions. I also don't adhere to Christianity or a number of the doctrines laid out within Christianity (although there are also a great number I do agree with). I don't believe I am now or ever was the property of satan, or born into sin. In fact, God says I was awesomely and wonderfully made - how can what God says is awesomely and wonderfully made be born into sin? Strikes me as a contradiction. Therefore, I do not believe I need a savior in the Christian sense of the word.
However, I do believe there is a God. I do believe within the pages of the Bible one can find a history of humanity, as well as God's desires for us, the information one needs to develop a relationship with God, and instructions on how to live a good life. The within part has to do with the internal struggles I face, some of which may or may not be similar to the internal struggles you face, or Sir faces, or Clay faces, etc. From that struggle we learn (and I mean really learn, internally in our hearts and minds) the things God put us on this earth to learn.
The concept of that internal struggle is also found within the pages of the NT. Does not Paul speak of that which he would not do, but does; and that which he would do, but does not? Is that not an internal struggle? Where does one struggle with their "personal advesary?" Do they fight with fists and weapons? Or do they fight with thoughts and decisions that they act or do not act upon?
You see the devil as literal, I see the devil as figurative. However, either way, I think both sets of beliefs hold to the notion that we struggle against something, no? What is it that we struggle against?
You believe you are perfected in Christ, yes? Yet you would also acknowledge that you still struggle either way, yes? The difference, perhaps, is that I don't believe it is Christ that perfects me, but it is the struggle itself that perfects me.
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Sushi
If made equals built, I'm going with God on this one.
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Oakspear
First, who is calling those who believe the bible idiots? It's not a large thread, and about 1/3 of the posts are jokes about the devil in a blue dress or playing a fiddle in Georgia :blink: so they shouldn't be hard to find.
Bramble and I gave our opinions from a pagan POV, Abigail from a Jewish POV, Wordwolf gave some good reasons for his POV. Everybody appeared to acting civilly
Speaking just for myself, I don't consider the bible believers idiots, I just don't believe what you do.
But you chose to paint other posters as those speaking forth flowery (do you imply emptiness with the floweriness?)
And no, I don't, from my POV have a decision to make. I don't have to decide to follow either a god or a devil that I don't believe exists.
This doesn't have to be a fight, it can be a discussion.
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Oakspear
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Abigail
Yup Oaks, extra husband points for him. :)
Back to this devil concept again. I think one of the other differences between how Judaism deals with adversity v what we were taught in TWI, is that in TWI we were always supposed to be fighting against the devil, resiting him, etc.
From a Jewish perspective, all things that exist were created by God, therefore nothing can be truly evil. Even the enemy of death has an ultimate higher purpose in that it brings us to the possibility of the next life on a higher level of existence. The Chassidics teach that we all live for the exact amount of time we were meant to live - the amount of time needed to learn what we need to learn and to teach what we need to teach.
In TWI we were often taught that if bad things happened - sickness, finacial troubles, whatever, it was because we were "off the Word", we "blew it" - it was always our fault and it was always a very negative thing. Now certainly, often times when bad things happen they are the natural consequence of a poor choice. But there are also many times when ".... just happens". But in either situation, Judaism seeks to find the higher purpose - the lesson to be learned - growth from within. Unlike TWI, which simpy sought to condemn us for allowing the devil to trick us.
So, from that perspective, even IF there were a devil, he would not be viewed as pure evil and would not be feared.
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dancing
thanks sir g, asleep and shadow boxing at times my self
getting better at what lurks in the shadows
and it ain't just the devil, although he,it,that, is usually upfront
not many live with their heart open enough to see for themselves
I'm no exception of course.
Still hide behind a few shadows some...hate it...
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sirguessalot
sorry, sunesis
really
a confession...
i am an idiot
you all know it
but then again
so are you
and we all know it
yet, by god's grace we are also somehow holy little children
foolish, grubby, gibbering idiots, really
who will never know or understand the entire truth
in spite of all our learning
thank God its all ultimately an ongoing mystery
so anyway...cuz were all pretty much specs of beings
in a really huge huge huge vast vast vast universe beyond any of our ability to measure and experience
where the ultimate truth of everything is always pretty much always going to be out of our reach
the devil knows it, too
and so does God
and Jesus
and all the angels
and spirits of the four corners of the earth
the living beings that go round and round
yada yada yada
we are doomed, again
lost and broken
as usual
from the start
from the very first human up til now
suffering and misery always with us
lost and broken again
our hope is to remember what that kid taught those people
plodding towards visions of a better future
hoping we can reunite with our loved ones who have died
so, the numbering of our years are based on the life of a man named jesus
a jewish kid who lived and died a radically tragic life in a way that many wise prophetic people predicted would some day just have to happen, no matter what
and so he showed us an even deeper way of courage and being that actually really truly honestly trancended death for really really really real
one that surpassed the wisdom of anything that any king or wise man had ever known or done or seen
he showed us the most direct way to god while he was alive
and by his dying
and his rebirth
yada yada yada
he taught actual spiritual practices according to the traditions of all the wise
east and west, north and south, old and new
and took them higher, wider, deeper, longer
and as we know, he had very little to do with any of it
his life was in complete surrender to god
in all ways
to the best of his ability
and he demonstrated how the devil is defeated...from within...where God whom is everywhere also is
in short, something about everything on earth changed...big time
and nothing has ever been the same again
the name of jesus is now everywhere, even more
and coming again, even greater than before
yep...i am with you 100% still
and yeah...there is a stubborn and elusive force in this planet
and most likely throughout the universe
that causes all suffering
each of our lives is really just a wound
a tear...a rip in the fabric of god
our life depends on how we get free from our slumber and choose the right way to eternal life
...
it seems to seem to me
that of the billions and billions of books of books of pages of pages of lines upon lines of stuff about the devil, darkness and the nature of evil...
also a lot of them on healing, nature, medicine, sexuality, morality, virtue, wisdom, marriage
etc...
as well as on the nature of God, Eternal life, Christ, Heaven, Truth, Love, Spirits, angels, etc...
writings about reality itself, time beyond time, dying, sickness, music, motherhood, birth, etc...
spiritual disciples who follow masters and form schools of thought
abraham is the father of most all old religious traditions
the jew, the muslim, the hindu, the buddhist
and jesus practiced these things
and lived and travelled in a world where these things were practiced as an art form and lifestyle
devotional, monkish life of vows and really strange strange behaviour, by most all conventional standards
of course, what and how he practiced was important
but why was most important of all
...
my point, i guess, is trying to be...
that we probably actually do not disagree about the value of that collection of book of books of books
but i am afraid that they are truer than you seem to think i think they are
and that the modern way we have come to practice what we call christianity
is about as unlike and far away from original christianity as one can get
scripturally, historically, anthropologically...
in terms of what is actually being practiced as a lifestyle
and what the stories are describing
not saying i am perfect
i am a fool like you...remember?
which is perfect enough for me
cuz we are kinda stuck in this much different world together
and this world is radically different place
and christ and god the devil are about as radically alive and well as they ever were
and that war rages greater than ever now
on in our hearts and minds
this world cannot last like this
yet here we are
waiting for the Spirit of Christ to come and guide us again
in a much bigger and better way than ever ever before
from a much much higher place
where it has been waiting and preparing for a long long time
on a much much bigger set of clocks and gears
...
and so i wonder
how many lines of thought are really going on here?
2?
i count at least 10 lines
in each of us, to some depths or degrees
in each of us...as radically amazing beings
even in our obvious and ongoing idiocies and sillinesses....
dazzling with light, even in death
whether we know it or not
god and spirit are that friggin stubborn and in charge, imho
so
just exhale
and be silent a while
that is what the kid said his students should do
when everyone was wiggin out about the crazy drama of his death
breathe....
and sit for days
you will see if you believe me
you will not die if you follow my ways
and in time...you will find the treasure you have been seeking all along
the theme of this kind of teaching
was after the order of abraham
the bull
and so...it becomes obvious when the teachings of abraham are not somehow being lived
because people are more afraid, angry, sick, lives haunted by devils and demons
yet here we are....thousands of years later
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sirguessalot
the deeper you sit
the deeper the universe becomes before you
and the you you thought you were is no longer seen as seperate from the entire cosmos
and so our attention is like a candle
and those who knew how to sit for long periods of time
would eventually meet the demons that haunt them the most
and eventually their greatest adversary
their own person devil
there in the closet
from the start
all along
a tip from the epistles: do not attempt to make this journey alone
this is a way of Christ
who knew all things
and so he knew what Buddha knew
and he knew what all the other billion wise men already knew
but man keeps forgetting
anything sounding blasphemous yet?
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sirguessalot
thanks for saying that
cuz the brilliance of what lives within is quite amazing
that which is buried and hidden under an ego like a placenta around us
our truest self is a most radiant thing
hidden to even itself
a shy, elusive untamable thing
that can only be invited
eternally young, creative
and paradoxically....our deepest oldest self
which is who the devil inside cannot even see
that is the pearl of great price
that is the name prior to your name
that is that which endures death itself
even it falls back asleep
buried there, in the darkness
sucking its thumb
waiting for the candle of your attention to stir its embers again
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Bramble
Sheesh, Sunesis, I think I'm insulted..
I don't think I've been rude or insulting on this thread. If I wanted to be rude, I could, I know how. I doubt that I would use the word idiot.
I saw no one fighting. I didn't see people agreeing either, but that is to be expected.
I see no value in fighting about beliefs, because no one can ever win. I stated my thoughts which differs from yours, so what? Do you find just hearing about different beliefs and thoughts threatening?
I am not here to convert anyone or to be converted. I come here because I find the subject matter interesting, and often someone will post something that helps me understand certain things about life and people or myself deeper.
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WordWolf
I'm not going to argue about whether or not we're arguing.
It seems, however, some of us (me included) got the impression that the thread
(especially the first page) seemed slanted to dismiss a more Fundamentalist approach
to the Bible. (No, I really don't want to quote the words that gave that impression,
since I see that as adding fuel to the fire.)
Can we agree that it either wasn't true, or that if it was true, it's not worth devoting any more time to?
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Oakspear
I was looking at that section in Isaiah again, where the name "Lucifer" is used.
If I recall correctly, Isaiah was written just before Israel was defeated and carried off to Babylon.
A prophecy of the future: God's not going to allow the captivity to last forever. Up to this point, I don't see where there is any reason to suppose that this is anything but the king of babylon we're talking about. This is where (IMHO) one has to decide whether this section is literally talking about the Babylonian King, or Satan. One way or another figurative language is being employed. This could be referring to how lofty a spot the king of Babylon fell from by way of hyperbole, or literally to Satan. Although at the time that this was written there was no other verses to to back up Satan falling from heaven (In Job he still has access to heaven)There is nothing that I can see in these verses that solidly indicates that this is talking about Satan.When was it decided that this did refer to Satan? Was it ever viwed that way in pre-Christian times? Did the Church Fathers view it that way?
In short, was that section always looked at as obviously referring to Satan, or did that position evolve?
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