great post, Bramble. I chose to affiliate myself with the religion of my choice because it best suited my already formed values and philosophies, because I liked some of the traditions/rituals, and because it left me feeling more connected to my heritage.
I don't claim to agree with everything that is taught in my religion of choice, but I do greatly appreciate the freedom I have found within this particular group to form my own beliefs without feeling I have to justify them to the rest of the group.
I think that's the problem.. For many, it is just a faith or a belief.. If that is all it comes down to, then you're right, there's nothing to it.. No power, no relationship, nothing, just mental ascent. One person's brain and the others. Just as the Christian scriptures state, "for even the devil believes...".
Despite what TWI taught, about believing being the greatest principle in all of life, it isn't.. Who cares what you believe. WHo cares what I believe. God doesn't even judge us (according to the Christian scriptures) according to what we believe. He judges us according to what is in our heart, which of course would determine our believing, however, we can be wrong in our believing yet still right in our heart (as well as vica versa). Many read that by faith we are saved from the Christian scriptures, but honestly the believing,pistis, that it speaks of is more of a heart's trusting, not a mental ascent to believing..
Anyways.. Back to concrete evidence.. Nope, not if it is just about believing.. Nothing..
That is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:2-5 "In coming to you brothers and sisters, I come proclaiming to you the testimony of God not according to excellence of word or of wisdom. For I decided not to know anything among you but Jesus Christ and this one crucified. I come to you in weakness and in much fear and trembling. My word and proclamation are not in persuasive words of human wisdom but by the demonstration of the Spirit and power, so that your faith might not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God!"
I would not put my trust in whom I put my trust in, if it were not for the power that I've witnessed. I would not put my life in the hands of the God whom the Christian scriptures talk of, if I didn't know him personally and have a REAL relationship with him. If it was based on wisdom, and mental ascent.. You're right.. It means nothing..
Religion of the world is just that.. Believing without power..
The way I see it, once we get to the point that we think we know it all and have not only all the answers, but all the RIGHT answers, we become empty and like the Dead Sea. Our bucket is full and there's no room for considering the smallest possibility that - GASP! - we just might be wrong.
This is why I enjoy discussing other faiths, beliefs and the history of different religions. I've had a blast learning new and different things since leaving TWI. Life just keeps getting better and better, too! I've seen more answers to prayer and more exceeding abundance since practicing different things I've learned from a wide variety of people. While I frequently visit a Methodist Church, my beliefs are far from limited to their doctrine alone.
It's always good, safe and wise to keep our eyes and ears open - God only knows what new things we might learn. People who only want to attack others and/or refuse to talk to folks from different backgrounds, perspectives, etc. are the most pathetic, imo.
To be honest, Trust aand Obey, I've seen about the same types of prayers or spells work and not work since I left Christianity. And sometimes wonderful things happen,a dn sometimes horrible things happen. I have not seen where being a Christian gives you an edge in life.
I'm not exactly sure what mental assent is, though I know what TWI thought--it was BAD.. I always thought it meant telling yourself what you were told to believe, even though deep inside you didn't, and you were reluctant to act on it.
I have to say, I only act on those things I'm not at all reluctant to do, when it comes to spiritual matters. I find that has brought alot of peace. To me faith has to do with the way you live...most people I've met who are really concerned about such things live their lives a certain way, according to their beliefs.
God doesn't even judge us (according to the Christian scriptures) according to what we believe. He judges us according to what is in our heart, which of course would determine our believing, however, we can be wrong in our believing yet still right in our heart (as well as vica versa).
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
substance
5287 hupostasis { hoop-os’-tas-is}
from a compound of 5259 and 2476; TDNT - 8:572,1237; n f
AV - confidence 2, confident 1, person 1, substance 1; 5
GK - 5712 { uJpovstasi" }
1) a setting or placing under
1a) thing put under, substructure, foundation
2) that which has foundation, is firm
2a) that which has actual existence
2a1) a substance, real being
2b) the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
2c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
2c1) confidence, firm trust, assurance
evidence
1650 elegchos { el’-eng-khos}
from 1651; TDNT - 2:476,221; n m
AV - reproof 1, evidence 1; 2
GK - 1791 { ejlegmov" }* & 1793 { e[legco" }
1) a proof, that by which a thing is proved or tested
...There is a term some people use--unverified personal gnosis. It is what happens inside, when a person finds, chooses a religion/belief. Mine is different than some one else, but then, I'm a different person, with a different life history, abilities yadayada. An individual, with an individual take on spiritual matters.
Inside our heads, we make these decisions alone. Even if there are people pressuring, or convincing or denigrating or witnessing etc, in the end it all comes down to what is inside us.
I think the view that all people should think alike, believe alike is a false view of humanity's Spiritual nature. It is trying to control and regulate something we can't even understand fully...
What a great post and thought-provoking thread – thanks, Bramble! I like the way you put things. I think we're all on a spiritual journey here on earth – and for each of us it's all happening on the inside – yes a personal, subjective experience. And as such – we all experience…perceive…interpret reality differently…I don't care to argue over belief systems – and I don't think that was in your purpose in starting this thread. Maybe this is a discussion on how people navigate their spiritual journey.
One of my favorite books is 7 Habits of Highly Successful Peopleby Stephen Covey – in it he says something like the closer our mental maps are to reality the more valuable or useful they become. The longer I live the more I realize how little I know. I'm glad we all don't think alike – and hence the value of other viewpoints. I said to you on another thread how sometimes my concept of something has expanded or changed from an idea expressed by someone of a completely different belief system than mine.
I think Abigail made a big point in saying how she took an active, conscious role in acknowledging her existing belief system and developing it further. That's sort of how I operate….a know-where-I-am-now-and-have-some-idea-where-I-want-to-go type of thing. Belle talking about people who think they have all the RIGHT answers - reminded me of how I used to think in my TWI days – gosh what intellectual suicide – okay maybe that's too harsh – how about intellectual straightjacket [hmmmm that is what they use for crazy people]. So glad I escaped that loony farm!
Sorry, dancing, I don't get what you're trying to say and merely quoting verses and concordances doesn't contribute anything. :blink: I skip over those kinds of posts - too TWI for me and no substance to add to the discussion. Writing grammatically correct is another reason why I skip a lot of posts. It just hurts my eyes. It's nothing personal, but it has to be a real slow day for me to take time to try to decipher the posts of people who write like that.
And, this topic really has nothing to do with the Bible so scripture is out of place and it seems as though you're really just presenting a perfect example of what we're talking about... that some of us believe there is no one belief or faith and that it's not necessary that we all think, believe and worship alike. God looks on the heart - not the brain and certainly not the nametag.
T-Bone, "navigate their spiritual journey" - I've never heard it put like that and certainly never thought of it that way, but it certainly makes it all the more exciting to think of it in those terms. :) I LOVE whitewater rafting and the last time I went I bought a t-shirt that says, "The journey is the destination" because it resonated with me.
I think of life as a whitewater rafting ride. We pay for the ride and don't really want to get to the end of the river. We enjoy each curve of the river, the quiet waters, the places where we can set up camp, the bends of rapids that get our blood pumping, the rocks under the surface that are dangerous, etc. The whole journey is what we're there for and only the wimpiest wimps are eagerly anticipating (hoping) for the ride to be over.
To consider the spiritual exploration in the same light is really cool! When I left TWI I wasn't sure what to do. Part of me wanted to find a "traditional" church and parts of me wanted to go back and re-examine the things I had been exploring prior to TWI (Tarot, Tibetan Meditation, Buddhism, Christian Science....) just a litany of things and gleaning what I could and felt relevant from each one. Not committing to just one way of thinking, believing except that there is a God Almighty out there and we should get to know him and ask for his providence in our lives.
I know when I'm in faith when things happen quickly, because whenever you're in faith or when you're believing then things happen quickly. There are reasons why things wouldn't happen quickly, but one can develop their faith or their believing to receive things very quickly.
One reason why things don't happen quickly is because people haven't learned how to put a demand on their faith to recieve immediately. Some people are perfectly fine with a "delayed" manifestation of what they are believing for. If you're someone who is OK with a delayed manifestion, then you'll have delayed manifestions of your faith because you haven't pressed in on your faith to receive quickly.
God's Word says by his stripes we were [past tense] healed. If you are in faith to be healed then your healing will come quickly. If you don't receive your healing quickly, then you are probably OK with a delayed manifestation. It just means you haven't developed your faith to press in quick enough to receive healing. If that's the case then one should go to the doctor - because when you ARE in faith, things happen quickly - especially things God Word says are already available to you, i.e. healing.
The problem is many people condemn themselves for that very reason. A delayed manifestion doesn't mean you have no faith, it just means you haven't pressed in to receive what is already available. Many people were led to think they had no faith or believing if they went to a doctor to get healed. No, going to a doctor is just another way to press in to receive healing, so why do people condemn themselves for that?
Another reason we don't receive [lambano] things quickly is we haven't prepaired ourselves to receive [dechomai] things quickly. Our reception center - our runway is cluttered. An airplane won't land on a cluttered runway. Your "airplane of faith" can't land on a cluttered runway. No problem, just clean off the runway. But that can take some time. It's easy to condemn yourself for having a cluttered runway. But condemnation won't clear the runway - it only adds to the clutter already there. That's right.
Manifestations of faith shouldn't take long, but prepairing ourselves to receive [lambano] manifestations can take time. But if you're waiting to get your faith or your believing to that place then you're already too late. Get your runway cleared off first - the wrong thinking and the doubt. When your runway is clear then you can receive instant results. Getting the thinking right and the heart right, that's all in the preparation to receive from God. I know there are people who say they no longer believe in the law of believing. If that were true and they had a quick working disease - they would have already died!
It's better to keep your runway clear and keep the debris off your runway. It is written: Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of life. [Proverbs 4:23] Keeping your runway clear is included in the "keeping your heart with all diligence" part.
How about things like finances and material abundance? The thing to remember there is God gives to you through the hands of men. God's hands are quick when it comes to God giving directly to you, but man's hand can be slow. So when it comes to finances and receiving material abundance, because other mens hands are involved, then it slows down the process of receiving. But when something is already available from God and belongs to you then you can press in to receive it. Salvation, the gift of holy spirit, healing, peace, etc. other men's hands are not on those things and aren't involved. Those things already belong to you so you can just claim those things. When things are directly between you and God and other men aren't involved then you can receive instantly if you so desire.
What I have a problem with had a problem with even when a TWI-ite
is the idea of Demanding anything of God
Because IMO, when you start saying that it is YOUR believing or MY believing that determines haw fast something happens then, again IMO, you are dictating to God what his Timetable should be--
And I have a really hard time getting a handle on that
dancing and WTH, it seems like you two hold to a lot of TWI doctrine and concordance word studies. That's your belief/religion, right?
How did you come to believe what you believe?
Do you think your way is the only right way?
How do you feel about others who have a different belief system that what you've laid out here as your doctrine?
Where does your image of God come from? Who taught you that and why do you take their word for it? If your answer is that it's because the Bible says that, then why do you believe their interpretation of the Bible over someone else's?
When is the last time you changed something you had previously believed to be THE TRUTH? What caused you to change your mind?
I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just wondering how you got to that point and to what degree you're willing to discuss and consider other viewpoints. What do you think about people of other faiths? (Faith - not meaning faith in God... it does have more than one definition. )
dancing, please know that when I do read and understand what you're saying I appreciate your sharing and I'm glad that you do post here. :) I just don't spend much time in the dungeon down here to begin with. My brain is already in overdrive in other areas.
I'm not all that comfortable with the demand type of believing. I know alot of people( Christian and pagan) swear that it works, though I'm not convinced of that either.
What I am convinced of is that, as a parent, my kids best NOT demand anything from me!--it will not bring the desired results, because what my children are 'entitled' to, I make sure they already have, like food, clothes, love and affection, reasonable limits, social activities etc. If they want something, we can talk about it, investigate it...but they might not get it.
And if one of my kids is loved onesis sick or in need, then they don't have to demand, I will do what I can to help them...if it is beneficial to them. I will not do their homework for them, stuff like that.
As far as I can tell, believing/asking/demanding of a spiritual power doesn't really work like that...I prefer to gain what wisdom I can from mine...I suspect mine would do a motherly smack down if I demanded...I'm always aware that what might be great for me might not be so great for someone else, and if I initiate something then the repurcusions are mine to deal with. I personally think there are chaotic elements all over this big wide world that make life unpredictable in many ways.
Anyway, I started this thread because it seems so obvious to me now, that we all make spiritual choices in the privacy of our own individual minds...declaring myself to be right, in fact the only right way for you all seems rather bizarre now. I can declare that something is right for me, but I can't speak for anyone else, because what fits for me doesn't work for someone else.
Back in my Way daze that wasn't at all clear to me. In fact I did not examine what I really thought, because my 'job' was to run the correct doctrine through my brain until it made a groove or something. Thoughts contrary to the 'present truth' made grooves, too, but those were conduits for devil spirits(who can't read minds but hey, no one said it had to make sense.) Like minded meant not thinking about anything in depth, because then you begin to question...
There is one Bible verse I think about--the one where we see through a glass darkly. Ever looked through some old thick glass? It distorts when you look through it. I think that is an apt analogy for humans looking at the spiritual.
Reading the records it was not there will but God's will.
Sounds like what Jesus said.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Interesting, Danny. I'll have to look up an anchor cross.
The pre Nazi swastika was a positive image, but now the symbolism is so clouded. I have a necklace called a Lauburu, which is like a solar cross but more rounded on the end with a celtic knot look. I have quite few necklaces with symbols that mean something to me but don't freak out the public. I find they help me keep something I want to think about in mind...images work well for me.
Have you thought of taking a picture of the cross you want and giving to a high school student who is taking woodworking. Or to someone in your area who has a cottage industry and/or works with wood.?
The price would probably be far more reasonable and you could select the wood you want, design etc. If you wanted it in metal there are probably people in your area who work in that material too.
Yes, excellent point, Dancing! I also see that Hebrews 11 seems to be stressing the obedience of the people listed. And it is in obedience to God – not some imagined "law of believing" – as indicated by verse 6 that you quoted "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." The way I understand it – our faith is to please God – not ourselves.
….Interesting to think about in Hebrews 11:39, 40 "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." ...If I put on my PFAL-glasses and have the scanners set for law-of-believing-mode I keep getting an error message "Doctrinal anomaly – PFAL-glasses have encountered a verse that does not fit the Sorcerer's Apprentice Rule Book – and will not refer to this verse in the future." These people had faith – yet DID NOT RECEIVE. Perhaps because people are not the ones calling the shots – I think God is – "God had planned something better."
A journey of faith can be a little scary like Belle was saying with the rafting analogy. But the journey – the journey – yes I said the journey – is actually fun! I left TWI because it was like realizing I had my raft tied to the dock – and chanting over and over again "wow – I'm master of this river - look at me go – nothing stops me – I'm not afraid of anything!"
...It's better to keep your runway clear and keep the debris off your runway. It is written: Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of life. [Proverbs 4:23] Keeping your runway clear is included in the "keeping your heart with all diligence" part...
Not sure on exact dates but I think the Book of Proverbs was completed around the 3rd Century BC and airports and runways are products of early 20th Century AD technology…
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Abigail
great post, Bramble. I chose to affiliate myself with the religion of my choice because it best suited my already formed values and philosophies, because I liked some of the traditions/rituals, and because it left me feeling more connected to my heritage.
I don't claim to agree with everything that is taught in my religion of choice, but I do greatly appreciate the freedom I have found within this particular group to form my own beliefs without feeling I have to justify them to the rest of the group.
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TrustAndObey
I think that's the problem.. For many, it is just a faith or a belief.. If that is all it comes down to, then you're right, there's nothing to it.. No power, no relationship, nothing, just mental ascent. One person's brain and the others. Just as the Christian scriptures state, "for even the devil believes...".
Despite what TWI taught, about believing being the greatest principle in all of life, it isn't.. Who cares what you believe. WHo cares what I believe. God doesn't even judge us (according to the Christian scriptures) according to what we believe. He judges us according to what is in our heart, which of course would determine our believing, however, we can be wrong in our believing yet still right in our heart (as well as vica versa). Many read that by faith we are saved from the Christian scriptures, but honestly the believing,pistis, that it speaks of is more of a heart's trusting, not a mental ascent to believing..
Anyways.. Back to concrete evidence.. Nope, not if it is just about believing.. Nothing..
That is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:2-5 "In coming to you brothers and sisters, I come proclaiming to you the testimony of God not according to excellence of word or of wisdom. For I decided not to know anything among you but Jesus Christ and this one crucified. I come to you in weakness and in much fear and trembling. My word and proclamation are not in persuasive words of human wisdom but by the demonstration of the Spirit and power, so that your faith might not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God!"
I would not put my trust in whom I put my trust in, if it were not for the power that I've witnessed. I would not put my life in the hands of the God whom the Christian scriptures talk of, if I didn't know him personally and have a REAL relationship with him. If it was based on wisdom, and mental ascent.. You're right.. It means nothing..
Religion of the world is just that.. Believing without power..
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likeaneagle
TandO
believing without knowing..
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Belle
Excellent post, Bramble!
The way I see it, once we get to the point that we think we know it all and have not only all the answers, but all the RIGHT answers, we become empty and like the Dead Sea. Our bucket is full and there's no room for considering the smallest possibility that - GASP! - we just might be wrong.
This is why I enjoy discussing other faiths, beliefs and the history of different religions. I've had a blast learning new and different things since leaving TWI. Life just keeps getting better and better, too! I've seen more answers to prayer and more exceeding abundance since practicing different things I've learned from a wide variety of people. While I frequently visit a Methodist Church, my beliefs are far from limited to their doctrine alone.
It's always good, safe and wise to keep our eyes and ears open - God only knows what new things we might learn.
People who only want to attack others and/or refuse to talk to folks from different backgrounds, perspectives, etc. are the most pathetic, imo.
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dancing
faith is the substance...
the evidence of things not seen
so hebrews says
so this substance can be examined by yourself
or with the help of another
this can be done without a quarrel or any such thing
but faith is spiritual yes..unseen
unseen..what does that mean?
like a car or house?
or can it really be seen
we see things all the time
a mind without limits
only those we place on ourselves
so when we see are we limited to what we see?
or can there be more-deeper wider greater then first believed
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Bramble
To be honest, Trust aand Obey, I've seen about the same types of prayers or spells work and not work since I left Christianity. And sometimes wonderful things happen,a dn sometimes horrible things happen. I have not seen where being a Christian gives you an edge in life.
I'm not exactly sure what mental assent is, though I know what TWI thought--it was BAD.. I always thought it meant telling yourself what you were told to believe, even though deep inside you didn't, and you were reluctant to act on it.
I have to say, I only act on those things I'm not at all reluctant to do, when it comes to spiritual matters. I find that has brought alot of peace. To me faith has to do with the way you live...most people I've met who are really concerned about such things live their lives a certain way, according to their beliefs.
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templelady
Doing the Happy dance and cartwheels of joy
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dancing
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
substance
5287 hupostasis { hoop-os’-tas-is}
from a compound of 5259 and 2476; TDNT - 8:572,1237; n f
AV - confidence 2, confident 1, person 1, substance 1; 5
GK - 5712 { uJpovstasi" }
1) a setting or placing under
1a) thing put under, substructure, foundation
2) that which has foundation, is firm
2a) that which has actual existence
2a1) a substance, real being
2b) the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
2c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
2c1) confidence, firm trust, assurance
evidence
1650 elegchos { el’-eng-khos}
from 1651; TDNT - 2:476,221; n m
AV - reproof 1, evidence 1; 2
GK - 1791 { ejlegmov" }* & 1793 { e[legco" }
1) a proof, that by which a thing is proved or tested
2) conviction
On a side note-interesting that it says 'worlds'.
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T-Bone
What a great post and thought-provoking thread – thanks, Bramble! I like the way you put things. I think we're all on a spiritual journey here on earth – and for each of us it's all happening on the inside – yes a personal, subjective experience. And as such – we all experience…perceive…interpret reality differently…I don't care to argue over belief systems – and I don't think that was in your purpose in starting this thread. Maybe this is a discussion on how people navigate their spiritual journey.
One of my favorite books is 7 Habits of Highly Successful People by Stephen Covey – in it he says something like the closer our mental maps are to reality the more valuable or useful they become. The longer I live the more I realize how little I know. I'm glad we all don't think alike – and hence the value of other viewpoints. I said to you on another thread how sometimes my concept of something has expanded or changed from an idea expressed by someone of a completely different belief system than mine.
I think Abigail made a big point in saying how she took an active, conscious role in acknowledging her existing belief system and developing it further. That's sort of how I operate….a know-where-I-am-now-and-have-some-idea-where-I-want-to-go type of thing. Belle talking about people who think they have all the RIGHT answers - reminded me of how I used to think in my TWI days – gosh what intellectual suicide – okay maybe that's too harsh – how about intellectual straightjacket [hmmmm that is what they use for crazy people]. So glad I escaped that loony farm!
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dancing
talk substance and ignored
talk the unseen - ignored
no matter
don't change nothin anyway
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Belle
Sorry, dancing, I don't get what you're trying to say and merely quoting verses and concordances doesn't contribute anything. :blink: I skip over those kinds of posts - too TWI for me and no substance to add to the discussion. Writing grammatically correct is another reason why I skip a lot of posts. It just hurts my eyes.
It's nothing personal, but it has to be a real slow day for me to take time to try to decipher the posts of people who write like that.
And, this topic really has nothing to do with the Bible so scripture is out of place and it seems as though you're really just presenting a perfect example of what we're talking about... that some of us believe there is no one belief or faith and that it's not necessary that we all think, believe and worship alike. God looks on the heart - not the brain and certainly not the nametag.
T-Bone, "navigate their spiritual journey" - I've never heard it put like that and certainly never thought of it that way, but it certainly makes it all the more exciting to think of it in those terms. :) I LOVE whitewater rafting and the last time I went I bought a t-shirt that says, "The journey is the destination" because it resonated with me.
I think of life as a whitewater rafting ride. We pay for the ride and don't really want to get to the end of the river. We enjoy each curve of the river, the quiet waters, the places where we can set up camp, the bends of rapids that get our blood pumping, the rocks under the surface that are dangerous, etc. The whole journey is what we're there for and only the wimpiest wimps are eagerly anticipating (hoping) for the ride to be over.
To consider the spiritual exploration in the same light is really cool! When I left TWI I wasn't sure what to do. Part of me wanted to find a "traditional" church and parts of me wanted to go back and re-examine the things I had been exploring prior to TWI (Tarot, Tibetan Meditation, Buddhism, Christian Science....) just a litany of things and gleaning what I could and felt relevant from each one. Not committing to just one way of thinking, believing except that there is a God Almighty out there and we should get to know him and ask for his providence in our lives.
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dancing
No problem Belle.
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What The Hey
I know when I'm in faith when things happen quickly, because whenever you're in faith or when you're believing then things happen quickly. There are reasons why things wouldn't happen quickly, but one can develop their faith or their believing to receive things very quickly.
One reason why things don't happen quickly is because people haven't learned how to put a demand on their faith to recieve immediately. Some people are perfectly fine with a "delayed" manifestation of what they are believing for. If you're someone who is OK with a delayed manifestion, then you'll have delayed manifestions of your faith because you haven't pressed in on your faith to receive quickly.
God's Word says by his stripes we were [past tense] healed. If you are in faith to be healed then your healing will come quickly. If you don't receive your healing quickly, then you are probably OK with a delayed manifestation. It just means you haven't developed your faith to press in quick enough to receive healing. If that's the case then one should go to the doctor - because when you ARE in faith, things happen quickly - especially things God Word says are already available to you, i.e. healing.
The problem is many people condemn themselves for that very reason. A delayed manifestion doesn't mean you have no faith, it just means you haven't pressed in to receive what is already available. Many people were led to think they had no faith or believing if they went to a doctor to get healed. No, going to a doctor is just another way to press in to receive healing, so why do people condemn themselves for that?
Another reason we don't receive [lambano] things quickly is we haven't prepaired ourselves to receive [dechomai] things quickly. Our reception center - our runway is cluttered. An airplane won't land on a cluttered runway. Your "airplane of faith" can't land on a cluttered runway. No problem, just clean off the runway. But that can take some time. It's easy to condemn yourself for having a cluttered runway. But condemnation won't clear the runway - it only adds to the clutter already there. That's right.
Manifestations of faith shouldn't take long, but prepairing ourselves to receive [lambano] manifestations can take time. But if you're waiting to get your faith or your believing to that place then you're already too late. Get your runway cleared off first - the wrong thinking and the doubt. When your runway is clear then you can receive instant results. Getting the thinking right and the heart right, that's all in the preparation to receive from God. I know there are people who say they no longer believe in the law of believing. If that were true and they had a quick working disease - they would have already died!
It's better to keep your runway clear and keep the debris off your runway. It is written: Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of life. [Proverbs 4:23] Keeping your runway clear is included in the "keeping your heart with all diligence" part.
How about things like finances and material abundance? The thing to remember there is God gives to you through the hands of men. God's hands are quick when it comes to God giving directly to you, but man's hand can be slow. So when it comes to finances and receiving material abundance, because other mens hands are involved, then it slows down the process of receiving. But when something is already available from God and belongs to you then you can press in to receive it. Salvation, the gift of holy spirit, healing, peace, etc. other men's hands are not on those things and aren't involved. Those things already belong to you so you can just claim those things. When things are directly between you and God and other men aren't involved then you can receive instantly if you so desire.
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allan w.
Well said WTH...but something tells me you better be ducking !!!
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templelady
NO ducking needed
What I have a problem with had a problem with even when a TWI-ite
is the idea of Demanding anything of God
Because IMO, when you start saying that it is YOUR believing or MY believing that determines haw fast something happens then, again IMO, you are dictating to God what his Timetable should be--
And I have a really hard time getting a handle on that
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Belle
dancing and WTH, it seems like you two hold to a lot of TWI doctrine and concordance word studies. That's your belief/religion, right?
How did you come to believe what you believe?
Do you think your way is the only right way?
How do you feel about others who have a different belief system that what you've laid out here as your doctrine?
Where does your image of God come from? Who taught you that and why do you take their word for it? If your answer is that it's because the Bible says that, then why do you believe their interpretation of the Bible over someone else's?
When is the last time you changed something you had previously believed to be THE TRUTH? What caused you to change your mind?
I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just wondering how you got to that point and to what degree you're willing to discuss and consider other viewpoints. What do you think about people of other faiths? (Faith - not meaning faith in God... it does have more than one definition.
)
dancing, please know that when I do read and understand what you're saying I appreciate your sharing and I'm glad that you do post here. :) I just don't spend much time in the dungeon down here to begin with. My brain is already in overdrive in other areas.
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dancing
speaking for myself
i haven't stated what i believe
just that there is substance to faith
i'm not anywhere near twi doctrine
and they didn't come up with the concordance
i just used it to make a point
anyways i still don't take offense Belle
i'm cool....
and no i don't even think I have a way...
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Bramble
I'm not all that comfortable with the demand type of believing. I know alot of people( Christian and pagan) swear that it works, though I'm not convinced of that either.
What I am convinced of is that, as a parent, my kids best NOT demand anything from me!--it will not bring the desired results, because what my children are 'entitled' to, I make sure they already have, like food, clothes, love and affection, reasonable limits, social activities etc. If they want something, we can talk about it, investigate it...but they might not get it.
And if one of my kids is loved onesis sick or in need, then they don't have to demand, I will do what I can to help them...if it is beneficial to them. I will not do their homework for them, stuff like that.
As far as I can tell, believing/asking/demanding of a spiritual power doesn't really work like that...I prefer to gain what wisdom I can from mine...I suspect mine would do a motherly smack down if I demanded...I'm always aware that what might be great for me might not be so great for someone else, and if I initiate something then the repurcusions are mine to deal with. I personally think there are chaotic elements all over this big wide world that make life unpredictable in many ways.
Anyway, I started this thread because it seems so obvious to me now, that we all make spiritual choices in the privacy of our own individual minds...declaring myself to be right, in fact the only right way for you all seems rather bizarre now. I can declare that something is right for me, but I can't speak for anyone else, because what fits for me doesn't work for someone else.
Back in my Way daze that wasn't at all clear to me. In fact I did not examine what I really thought, because my 'job' was to run the correct doctrine through my brain until it made a groove or something. Thoughts contrary to the 'present truth' made grooves, too, but those were conduits for devil spirits(who can't read minds but hey, no one said it had to make sense.) Like minded meant not thinking about anything in depth, because then you begin to question...
There is one Bible verse I think about--the one where we see through a glass darkly. Ever looked through some old thick glass? It distorts when you look through it. I think that is an apt analogy for humans looking at the spiritual.
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TheInvisibleDan
I'm shopping for a cross.
After all these 40-some-odd years, I never owned one.
Though there was that plastic, green glow-in-the-dark cross which hung
in one of the bedrooms at my parents' house.
No, I'm just taking my time, trying to find just the right one.
Or something close which appeals to my taste, that strikes the inner chord.
For awhile I contemplated the Egyptian ankhs, their cross being the symbol of life.
It's very cool looking, a striking symbol.
But the cross I really want is a variant of the Anchor cross as depicted on
the walls of the catacombs beneath Rome.
The modern versions of this symbol as featured on Ebay I personally find atrocious.
Their shape lacks the quiet dignity of the original symbol.
It's interesting shopping for symbols of faith.
The dove symbol never really did much for me.
Danny
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dancing
Yeah, I don't go for the telling God what to do.
I do things and reap what I sow.
It wasn't-
By Abel faith
By Enoch faith
By Noah faith
By Abraham faith
Through Sara faith
It was 'by Faith' they did these things.
Reading the records it was not there will but God's will.
Sounds like what Jesus said.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
hmmm...believe that he is....
and I don't think $ is the reward
finding him is
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Bramble
Interesting, Danny. I'll have to look up an anchor cross.
The pre Nazi swastika was a positive image, but now the symbolism is so clouded. I have a necklace called a Lauburu, which is like a solar cross but more rounded on the end with a celtic knot look. I have quite few necklaces with symbols that mean something to me but don't freak out the public. I find they help me keep something I want to think about in mind...images work well for me.
Dancing--good point about faith there.
' It wasn't-
By Abel faith
By Enoch faith
By Noah faith
By Abraham faith
Through Sara faith '
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templelady
Have you thought of taking a picture of the cross you want and giving to a high school student who is taking woodworking. Or to someone in your area who has a cottage industry and/or works with wood.?
The price would probably be far more reasonable and you could select the wood you want, design etc. If you wanted it in metal there are probably people in your area who work in that material too.
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T-Bone
Yes, excellent point, Dancing! I also see that Hebrews 11 seems to be stressing the obedience of the people listed. And it is in obedience to God – not some imagined "law of believing" – as indicated by verse 6 that you quoted "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." The way I understand it – our faith is to please God – not ourselves.
….Interesting to think about in Hebrews 11:39, 40 "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." ...If I put on my PFAL-glasses and have the scanners set for law-of-believing-mode I keep getting an error message "Doctrinal anomaly – PFAL-glasses have encountered a verse that does not fit the Sorcerer's Apprentice Rule Book – and will not refer to this verse in the future." These people had faith – yet DID NOT RECEIVE. Perhaps because people are not the ones calling the shots – I think God is – "God had planned something better."
A journey of faith can be a little scary like Belle was saying with the rafting analogy. But the journey – the journey – yes I said the journey – is actually fun! I left TWI because it was like realizing I had my raft tied to the dock – and chanting over and over again "wow – I'm master of this river - look at me go – nothing stops me – I'm not afraid of anything!"
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T-Bone
Not sure on exact dates but I think the Book of Proverbs was completed around the 3rd Century BC and airports and runways are products of early 20th Century AD technology…
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