I hold out hope that adults may begin acting like adults and respecting other adults and their boundaries.
Amen, RichnChrispy! I agreed with the rest of your post, too, but don't want to waste space quoting the whole thing. :)
Uptown, twi was heading in a direction that was heavily stlanted toward the research side of things in the mid- to late 80s. For example, remember the GMIR newsletter? What was lacking was the application of the simple, indisputable things of the Bible, like love, compassion, forgiveness, and so much more. Five million word studies won't put love into practice. Studying the Bible certainly can inspire love and compassion and forgiveness, but then people have to get out there and love, show compassion, and forgive. That doesn't come from a book.
If CES/STF managed to produce some insightful teachings and a book, praise the good Lord. Maybe that's the organization's legacy. But that doesn't mean the organization has to continue, IMO.
I’m pointing out that no one can fall so low that they are beyond God’s reach. People can surprise you. They can turn around when everyone else has written them off.
Paul made it a point in Corinthians to say that God routinely chooses those of little account by the world’s standards. You don’t have to be a “David” or a “Paul.” You just have to be willing to try and follow God.
Yes, people may have said the exact same thing about VP and LCM. Then they should have used their common sense (holy spirit would not have been needed for these two) and walked away when they saw that both were getting worse not better.
I’m not saying you should give allegiance to CES. I’m saying that you shouldn’t count them out yet. People do turn around. If they don’t, then walk.
The point is not to need the group or let them run your life. Nowhere have indicated this. Look at some of my recent posts about cults. I think you still have some left over “I just got burned by twi” left in you. (I’m not saying that to be mean – it’s how you come off to me.)
If you let another group run your life then learn your lesson and quit doing that. JAL should have told KA to take a hike when she got involved in his marriage. He made a mistake. If you go to CES or anywhere else it’s your responsibility to make sure you do what God says.
I already go to a lot of other research sources. Some of them are great. There is a CES fellowship in my area – I don’t go there because I don’t like the atmosphere. I use them for what I think they’re worth – good research like One God and One Lord. I don’t go to any of their classes or seminars. I’m about to start a Bible study at a local church.
If CES gets their sh$# straight I think they have something to offer. Some of which is hard to find in other places – like the stuff on the trinity.
Research is desperately needed all the time and it should never stop – ever.
Every time you read your bible you’re doing research.
Yes, it’s true, 5 million word studies won’t put love into practice. That’s the difference between doctrine and practice.
First you learn the doctrine, and then you go out and practice it.
Where do you learn that doctrine from? From the Bible (mainly). That’s what those word studies are for.
Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because twi f-up doesn’t mean you quit doing research. It’s not all or nothing. There is a balance. I like to study a lot, so I naturally like research oriented material. Devotionals don’t really do it for me, but a copy of Figures of Speech Used in the Bible is like gold.
Instead of seeing everything that is wrong with CES try seeing something that is right with them. Thus far I haven’t heard one person say one good thing about them.
UpTown1, in responding to your post, from what I have seen CES leaders have quite a ways to go to get back on track. And there basic disregard for Jesus' words, "by their fruit you will know them" means they have been vulnerable to every charleton and religious con artist that they come across. Two obvious examples are momentous and personal prophecy which they picked up from influences directly or indirectly outside of their circle of believing friends. You would think they could have found teachings outside of their circle that were more truthful and godly and less manipulative and controlling. What they chose instead speaks volumes to who they are or who they have become. And there are no more excuses for them as there has been a sufficient number of people ready, willing and able to point them in the right direction.
At this time, you and I have more spiritual/biblical/godly/practical sense. And instead of relying on them for biblical research we should do our own.
I posted this somewhere else, but it applies here.
One thing that is commonly seen with people who leave a cult is that they turn right around and join another cult.
I think this is where you get momentous and the pp stuff from. They were doing what a lot of ex-cult people do.
I agree, there is a long way to go, but I have a long way to go too. If you put my life under a microscope all of you wouldn’t find it very hard to tear me apart. But I don’t quit. I keep going and as time goes by I’m noticing something – I’m making progress.
I’m hoping this situation can serve as a catalyst to wake them up and get them moving.
Most people who left twi aren’t doing much. They have their fellowships or go to a church now – that sort of thing. Maybe get involved in some community activities or something.
These guys tried to do something for others. Yes, they messed up a lot (momentous and pp). What I saw as one of the best aspects of CES was that served as a clearinghouse for information that’s hard to find or even know about elsewhere like all of the material on the trinity.
The youth camp was a good idea. And having classes on how to do research for young people was a good idea. No one taught me much. I’ve just kind of picked up piecemeal.
I didn’t know about the Bible Works software before CES. I still haven’t found any that’s better. Etc.
Yes some of it sucks. So what are you going to do? Throw it all away or try and fix it? Sometimes I suck too. I’m glad God didn’t throw me away.
Well, Uptown, if you talk to John Lynn or John S. see if you can get them to replace the "eat the fish and throw away the bones" unscriptural dogma with Jesus' actual words and wisdom, "by their fruit you will know them". Otherwise they are going to continue to be prey for every religious conartist that they run across. I tried the last few weeks with two long phone conversations with John Lynn, but he is still holding this errant dogma like his religious life depends on it. And the last time I talked to John Lynn he also still thinks that the prophecies the CES board gave to Elizabeth are true. Even though myself and others have clearly told him that they were false. Being corrected with meekness is often very difficult for people in religious high places. I think his biblical teaching ministry is in serious jeopardy and unless he makes drastic changes in his head and heart he may not get it back. Unless of course one considers a small ex-way cult following a biblical teaching ministry which I do not. Of course, he can always continue his SAT teaching for high school kids which at this time sounds like a good thing for him.
And in retrospect Uptown, I like the way you are going about this. With an example of meekness for CES. However, have they ever listened to you to the end that they strongly considered your words? Actually, now that I think about it, Dan Gallagher says he has in recent e-mails to and from him. Like yourself I hope these guys can get back on track. The proof of the pudding though is still, "by their fruit you will know them".
I tried the last few weeks with two long phone conversations with John Lynn, but he is still holding this errant dogma like his religious life depends on it
why am I not suprised..
and this kind of response, to a PEER, or better..
If the angel Gabriel came down and had a conversaton with him, he probably would still hold onto this nonsense.
as far as momentus, please throw out the baby with the bathwater, the tub, soap and anything else.
funny story there. i remember standing by 'the right rev.'s ___ and ___ at a conference as they discussed how they needed to 'incorporate' some of the (trademarked and copyrighted) momentus 'training' into a CES leadership class (can you say 'borrow'?). but the big problem was that the 'leader' they needed for the initial training was a 'real a$$h0l_.'
made me wonder if the training was so good why the leader was an a$$___. if the training was so good why were the 'trainees' still calling people a$$___, and about 100 other questions that came up.
sadly it was 'genuinely' seen as something that would 'help people' and 'save year working through personal problems' like it obviously did not for the guy who ran it.
but that's a HUGE issue for me with this stuff. there are no shortcuts and real healing comes from HIM, not THEM.
it was also not really about helping people. it was about 'creating leaders quickly' so the 'ministry' could grow.
but really the new snakeoil, and the new 'mark and avoid' is the psychology. you want to totally kick somebody's legs out from under them if they're standing in your way? start a rumor or report at a 'leadership retreat' that the person needs, 'counseling.' everyone will sadly nod, 'oh gosh that's too bad.' then take a seminar and declare yourself 'trainers' so you can judge when people are 'ready' to do things, and please do NOT use the Bible as a standard because this will merely get in the way.
you've seen it mentioned several times in multiple threads here. i would be skeptical to hear it from a PSYCHOLGIST, but it was obviously common Indy culture for staff to CONCLUDE that people like E Lynn need 'counseling.'
I’d guess that it’s going to be pretty hard for John to let go of those prophecies. He destroyed his marriage with them and hurt Elizabeth in the process I imagine. That’s a lot to own up to, so I’m not surprised he’s taking his time.
I’m also not opposed to change in the leadership of CES. If guys like John can’t move it forward (whatever that means) then they need to step aside so others can take over. It’s important to know when to stand up and lead, but it’s just as important to know when to hand over the reigns.
There’s a very interesting book titled The True Believer by Eric Hoffer. In it he discusses the nature of mass movements – the kind of stuff they all have in common. He noted that when a movement is in its infancy it requires a dynamic personality to lead it – someone who’s willing to take risks, etc. Once the movement has grown and become a growing concern this type of leadership actually becomes detrimental to the group. He needs to be replaced with someone who is more easygoing and cautious.
I point this out as an example of different kinds of leadership being necessary at different points in a group’s lifespan. I’m not trying to make any direct comparison. Put a leader into a situation and he will fail, but put that same leader into a different situation and he will succeed.
The point is that maybe the guys who are there are not right for the job.
I would like to see CES take stock of their current situation to see exactly where they are at and where they want to go. Then decide who are the best people to get them there. If that means someone has to step aside and take on a different role then they should do so graciously because they want to do what’s best.
That’s the nature of being on a team – self-sacrifice. You sacrifice yourself for the good of the team. (I’m not talking about the twi idea of self-sacrifice here.)
Most people who left twi aren’t doing much. They have their fellowships or go to a church now – that sort of thing. Maybe get involved in some community activities or something.
Oh really?
And you know this, how?
Yes some of it sucks. So what are you going to do? Throw it all away or try and fix it? Sometimes I suck too. I’m glad God didn’t throw me away.
SOME of it sucks? Just SOME? How about MOST?
Sometimes it's wiser to move onto to something that doesn't need to be "fixed".
So what do you do with all that knowledge that seems so important to you?
As far as the psychology and momentous stuff goes something came to me.
Who trained Paul? Paul was brought up as a Pharisee, but as soon as he started working for God he denounced all of this as “dung.” It was the training and guidance he received from Christ that enabled his ministry.
Who taught Peter? I think that was Christ too.
Moses was trained in all the knowledge of the Egyptians, but it doesn’t seem that he ever uses it for much. I don’t think it was the Egyptians that gave him the Law. Didn’t that come from God?
CES was clearly looking in the wrong direction – they were looking to men. My guess is that this is a holdover mentality from twi days.
Most people who left twi aren't doing much. They have their fellowships or go to a church now – that sort of thing.
Well, I think this kind of thinking is wrong. Why is it assumed that if you don't have a following, you aren't doing much? Why should pleasing God have anything to do with "doing much"?
I don't mean to pick on you, just on this kind of thinking.
I don’t think you’re going to find anything that doesn’t need fixing or at least some regular repairs.
And it may be that some people do need to walk away because that is truly what’s best for them.
I have spent the first part of my life moving around the country and most places I ended up I went to a fellowship – Wisconsin Rapids, Madison WI, Rock Island ILL, a couple in the Dallas area, CA, VA, etc.
Some of the believer’s I know have friends in places I haven’t been to. When we talk they report the same things I’ve seen.
I’ve had a chance to see my fare share and it’s exactly like I described – most of them really aren’t doing all that much.
I'm not saying they're not pleasing to God. Nor do I think that you have to have a following or that you will have one if you are active.
But I honestly don't see anyone really on fire for anything.
I have a friend who took it upon himself to study the creation/evolution controversy. He has no background in any related fields, but you wouldn't know that if you talked to him because of the huge time and money investment he made to learn every detail of his subject.
He created a presentation so he could present this information to others and has done just that.
No one asked him to do any of this. He doesn't get paid for it. He just thought it up and did it.
This is not the first thing like this he has done. He also travels around to different churches and does their praise and worship music for them.
In order to pull this off he has to meet with a band and practice regularly. (That’s another big time investment.)
Again, no one asked him to do this. No one pays him for it. He just though it up and did it.
Do you know how many ex-way people I've come across that have done anything like this - none. Unless you want to count the guys from CES. I'm sure there are a few others out there, but the key word here is "few."
Well, why do we have to be "on fire" for anything? I'm not good at finding the right words, but I think that seeking the flash and sparks and sizzle isn't a good thing. Especially after having come out of a cult or two. I believe we all had some ego "problens" or we wouldn't have bought into the special-knowledge-better-than-other-Christians-thing. IMO, quiet reflection and a good dose of humble is what I think we should seek.
As far as the psychology and momentous stuff goes something came to me.
Who trained Paul? Paul was brought up as a Pharisee, but as soon as he started working for God he denounced all of this as “dung.” It was the training and guidance he received from Christ that enabled his ministry.
Who taught Peter? I think that was Christ too.
Moses was trained in all the knowledge of the Egyptians, but it doesn’t seem that he ever uses it for much. I don’t think it was the Egyptians that gave him the Law. Didn’t that come from God?
CES was clearly looking in the wrong direction – they were looking to men. My guess is that this is a holdover mentality from twi days.
The above is 100% correct. However, you saying that most ex-way people have not done much is factually incorrect and very short sighted. How do you know what ex-way people have done since leaving TWI? Many have got into business with success. I know of 2 people in Gilroy, CA who started a church/ministry including ownership of the physical church building. Incidentally, Karen Ann Graeser was very jealous of this when she heard about it after a CES meeting in California. A former Grease Spot Cafe poster is now a minister of a church in New York city. Pawtucket started a great web site and forum called Grease Spot Cafe. And I just recently passed the Real Estate broker's license exam for the state of California. And these are just a few examples.
Moses spent forty years in the wilderness before things got rolling.
Joseph spent quite a few years in slavery and prison before things took off.
Paul spent 14 years in Arabia (I think is was Arabia).
I have been moving rather slowly myself.
I see two basic reasons for slow growth. One is that the individual person needs time to grow so they can handle the job. This is when all the prep works get done. I believe that’s what Joseph was doing while he ran that guys business and then later the prison.
The other is that it’s not the right time. Israel spent 400 or 450 years in Egypt before it was the right time to come out. This was also a factor for Joseph. He couldn’t meet the baker and cupbearer until they were thrown into jail. He couldn’t interpret Pharaoh’s dream until he had it.
There are a variety of factors and for each person depending on their particular calling, physical location, and the timing of many other events these things are all going to be different.
What I’m concerned with is that a lot of people are just doing nothing. They’re just maintaining what they’ve got when they could be amping up for something. God has stuff going on everywhere, but if we refuse to get up off of the couch what can he do with us?
Your job is not your job. It’s what you do to pay the bills. It’s a means to an end – not the end. Your job is to work for God – that’s your primary occupation. We should all be involved in this whether we’re in the preparatory building up phase or we’re in the active phase.
God has tons of stuff you could do and that you would enjoy doing. A few months ago I started asking God to find someone for me to help – no particular reason why, I just did. One day on my way to my car I lady stopped me and asked if I could help her with her car.
She just moved here and just got a job and now her car was broke down. She was a single mother of two and was barely making ends meet. I couldn’t get her car working, so instead I drove her back and forth to work for a week.
I remember what she said when I, quite out of the blue offered to do this for her: “I was praying to God that he would help me.” She was praying that right when I walked out the door and our paths crossed.
Later in Corinthians I read what Paul said about giving. He said that when we give it causes praise to go up to God. I’m pretty sure that when her prayer was answered by my gift she praised God.
Which of the following statement rings more true to you.
1. The majority of ex-way followers are pastors of churches (or some other similar job).
2. The majority of ex-way followers are just living their life like everyone else on earth.
The answer just seems obvious to me.
Uptown, do yourself a favor and study 1 corin. chapter 12 and then get back to us on this. But let me give you a small hint. Is being a pastor of a church (or something similar) the only important worthwhile job in the body of Christ? If you already know that the answer to this is NO, then please stop writing posts like you think this is the case.
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Linda Z
Amen, RichnChrispy! I agreed with the rest of your post, too, but don't want to waste space quoting the whole thing. :)
Uptown, twi was heading in a direction that was heavily stlanted toward the research side of things in the mid- to late 80s. For example, remember the GMIR newsletter? What was lacking was the application of the simple, indisputable things of the Bible, like love, compassion, forgiveness, and so much more. Five million word studies won't put love into practice. Studying the Bible certainly can inspire love and compassion and forgiveness, but then people have to get out there and love, show compassion, and forgive. That doesn't come from a book.
If CES/STF managed to produce some insightful teachings and a book, praise the good Lord. Maybe that's the organization's legacy. But that doesn't mean the organization has to continue, IMO.
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uptown1
I’m not comparing CES to David or Paul.
I’m pointing out that no one can fall so low that they are beyond God’s reach. People can surprise you. They can turn around when everyone else has written them off.
Paul made it a point in Corinthians to say that God routinely chooses those of little account by the world’s standards. You don’t have to be a “David” or a “Paul.” You just have to be willing to try and follow God.
Yes, people may have said the exact same thing about VP and LCM. Then they should have used their common sense (holy spirit would not have been needed for these two) and walked away when they saw that both were getting worse not better.
I’m not saying you should give allegiance to CES. I’m saying that you shouldn’t count them out yet. People do turn around. If they don’t, then walk.
The point is not to need the group or let them run your life. Nowhere have indicated this. Look at some of my recent posts about cults. I think you still have some left over “I just got burned by twi” left in you. (I’m not saying that to be mean – it’s how you come off to me.)
If you let another group run your life then learn your lesson and quit doing that. JAL should have told KA to take a hike when she got involved in his marriage. He made a mistake. If you go to CES or anywhere else it’s your responsibility to make sure you do what God says.
I already go to a lot of other research sources. Some of them are great. There is a CES fellowship in my area – I don’t go there because I don’t like the atmosphere. I use them for what I think they’re worth – good research like One God and One Lord. I don’t go to any of their classes or seminars. I’m about to start a Bible study at a local church.
If CES gets their sh$# straight I think they have something to offer. Some of which is hard to find in other places – like the stuff on the trinity.
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uptown1
Linda z,
Research is desperately needed all the time and it should never stop – ever.
Every time you read your bible you’re doing research.
Yes, it’s true, 5 million word studies won’t put love into practice. That’s the difference between doctrine and practice.
First you learn the doctrine, and then you go out and practice it.
Where do you learn that doctrine from? From the Bible (mainly). That’s what those word studies are for.
Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because twi f-up doesn’t mean you quit doing research. It’s not all or nothing. There is a balance. I like to study a lot, so I naturally like research oriented material. Devotionals don’t really do it for me, but a copy of Figures of Speech Used in the Bible is like gold.
Instead of seeing everything that is wrong with CES try seeing something that is right with them. Thus far I haven’t heard one person say one good thing about them.
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Mark Sanguinetti
UpTown1, in responding to your post, from what I have seen CES leaders have quite a ways to go to get back on track. And there basic disregard for Jesus' words, "by their fruit you will know them" means they have been vulnerable to every charleton and religious con artist that they come across. Two obvious examples are momentous and personal prophecy which they picked up from influences directly or indirectly outside of their circle of believing friends. You would think they could have found teachings outside of their circle that were more truthful and godly and less manipulative and controlling. What they chose instead speaks volumes to who they are or who they have become. And there are no more excuses for them as there has been a sufficient number of people ready, willing and able to point them in the right direction.
At this time, you and I have more spiritual/biblical/godly/practical sense. And instead of relying on them for biblical research we should do our own.
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uptown1
Richnchrispy,
I’m getting a pp for you right now…..yes here it comes…..a word from the Lord…..
I perceive that you live in…..wait it’s coming to me now…..Houston!
More is coming……I see you playing guitar…..maybe some other instruments.
Yes, yes……you own a …..business of some sort……a book store!
There’s still more……..your wife works in a healing profession……midwife maybe.
It’s still coming……..God wants you to send me a large sum of cash. Very very large and right away.
Hope you enjoyed this as much as I did;)
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uptown1
I posted this somewhere else, but it applies here.
One thing that is commonly seen with people who leave a cult is that they turn right around and join another cult.
I think this is where you get momentous and the pp stuff from. They were doing what a lot of ex-cult people do.
I agree, there is a long way to go, but I have a long way to go too. If you put my life under a microscope all of you wouldn’t find it very hard to tear me apart. But I don’t quit. I keep going and as time goes by I’m noticing something – I’m making progress.
I’m hoping this situation can serve as a catalyst to wake them up and get them moving.
Most people who left twi aren’t doing much. They have their fellowships or go to a church now – that sort of thing. Maybe get involved in some community activities or something.
These guys tried to do something for others. Yes, they messed up a lot (momentous and pp). What I saw as one of the best aspects of CES was that served as a clearinghouse for information that’s hard to find or even know about elsewhere like all of the material on the trinity.
The youth camp was a good idea. And having classes on how to do research for young people was a good idea. No one taught me much. I’ve just kind of picked up piecemeal.
I didn’t know about the Bible Works software before CES. I still haven’t found any that’s better. Etc.
Yes some of it sucks. So what are you going to do? Throw it all away or try and fix it? Sometimes I suck too. I’m glad God didn’t throw me away.
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Ham
Personal prophecy and momentus.. I think they had to mine pretty deep to get that kind of snake oil to sell.
and not to the world at large, but mainly those who escaped the grasp of TWI.
PP does have a famiar tone to it.. it is the next cult mutation of prophecy on demand, and not much unlike its predecessor in TWI.
It's still on their website.. http://www.truthortradition.com/
My first act as pres probably would have been to take that down.
I guess as long as there are snakes, there will be snake oil.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Well, Uptown, if you talk to John Lynn or John S. see if you can get them to replace the "eat the fish and throw away the bones" unscriptural dogma with Jesus' actual words and wisdom, "by their fruit you will know them". Otherwise they are going to continue to be prey for every religious conartist that they run across. I tried the last few weeks with two long phone conversations with John Lynn, but he is still holding this errant dogma like his religious life depends on it. And the last time I talked to John Lynn he also still thinks that the prophecies the CES board gave to Elizabeth are true. Even though myself and others have clearly told him that they were false. Being corrected with meekness is often very difficult for people in religious high places. I think his biblical teaching ministry is in serious jeopardy and unless he makes drastic changes in his head and heart he may not get it back. Unless of course one considers a small ex-way cult following a biblical teaching ministry which I do not. Of course, he can always continue his SAT teaching for high school kids which at this time sounds like a good thing for him.
And in retrospect Uptown, I like the way you are going about this. With an example of meekness for CES. However, have they ever listened to you to the end that they strongly considered your words? Actually, now that I think about it, Dan Gallagher says he has in recent e-mails to and from him. Like yourself I hope these guys can get back on track. The proof of the pudding though is still, "by their fruit you will know them".
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Ham
why am I not suprised..
and this kind of response, to a PEER, or better..
If the angel Gabriel came down and had a conversaton with him, he probably would still hold onto this nonsense.
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1broken1
as far as momentus, please throw out the baby with the bathwater, the tub, soap and anything else.
funny story there. i remember standing by 'the right rev.'s ___ and ___ at a conference as they discussed how they needed to 'incorporate' some of the (trademarked and copyrighted) momentus 'training' into a CES leadership class (can you say 'borrow'?). but the big problem was that the 'leader' they needed for the initial training was a 'real a$$h0l_.'
made me wonder if the training was so good why the leader was an a$$___. if the training was so good why were the 'trainees' still calling people a$$___, and about 100 other questions that came up.
sadly it was 'genuinely' seen as something that would 'help people' and 'save year working through personal problems' like it obviously did not for the guy who ran it.
but that's a HUGE issue for me with this stuff. there are no shortcuts and real healing comes from HIM, not THEM.
it was also not really about helping people. it was about 'creating leaders quickly' so the 'ministry' could grow.
but really the new snakeoil, and the new 'mark and avoid' is the psychology. you want to totally kick somebody's legs out from under them if they're standing in your way? start a rumor or report at a 'leadership retreat' that the person needs, 'counseling.' everyone will sadly nod, 'oh gosh that's too bad.' then take a seminar and declare yourself 'trainers' so you can judge when people are 'ready' to do things, and please do NOT use the Bible as a standard because this will merely get in the way.
you've seen it mentioned several times in multiple threads here. i would be skeptical to hear it from a PSYCHOLGIST, but it was obviously common Indy culture for staff to CONCLUDE that people like E Lynn need 'counseling.'
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uptown1
I’d guess that it’s going to be pretty hard for John to let go of those prophecies. He destroyed his marriage with them and hurt Elizabeth in the process I imagine. That’s a lot to own up to, so I’m not surprised he’s taking his time.
I’m also not opposed to change in the leadership of CES. If guys like John can’t move it forward (whatever that means) then they need to step aside so others can take over. It’s important to know when to stand up and lead, but it’s just as important to know when to hand over the reigns.
There’s a very interesting book titled The True Believer by Eric Hoffer. In it he discusses the nature of mass movements – the kind of stuff they all have in common. He noted that when a movement is in its infancy it requires a dynamic personality to lead it – someone who’s willing to take risks, etc. Once the movement has grown and become a growing concern this type of leadership actually becomes detrimental to the group. He needs to be replaced with someone who is more easygoing and cautious.
I point this out as an example of different kinds of leadership being necessary at different points in a group’s lifespan. I’m not trying to make any direct comparison. Put a leader into a situation and he will fail, but put that same leader into a different situation and he will succeed.
The point is that maybe the guys who are there are not right for the job.
I would like to see CES take stock of their current situation to see exactly where they are at and where they want to go. Then decide who are the best people to get them there. If that means someone has to step aside and take on a different role then they should do so graciously because they want to do what’s best.
That’s the nature of being on a team – self-sacrifice. You sacrifice yourself for the good of the team. (I’m not talking about the twi idea of self-sacrifice here.)
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Belle
Oh really?
And you know this, how?
SOME of it sucks? Just SOME? How about MOST?
Sometimes it's wiser to move onto to something that doesn't need to be "fixed".
So what do you do with all that knowledge that seems so important to you?
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uptown1
As far as the psychology and momentous stuff goes something came to me.
Who trained Paul? Paul was brought up as a Pharisee, but as soon as he started working for God he denounced all of this as “dung.” It was the training and guidance he received from Christ that enabled his ministry.
Who taught Peter? I think that was Christ too.
Moses was trained in all the knowledge of the Egyptians, but it doesn’t seem that he ever uses it for much. I don’t think it was the Egyptians that gave him the Law. Didn’t that come from God?
CES was clearly looking in the wrong direction – they were looking to men. My guess is that this is a holdover mentality from twi days.
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tonto
Well, I think this kind of thinking is wrong. Why is it assumed that if you don't have a following, you aren't doing much? Why should pleasing God have anything to do with "doing much"?
I don't mean to pick on you, just on this kind of thinking.
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uptown1
Bella,
I don’t think you’re going to find anything that doesn’t need fixing or at least some regular repairs.
And it may be that some people do need to walk away because that is truly what’s best for them.
I have spent the first part of my life moving around the country and most places I ended up I went to a fellowship – Wisconsin Rapids, Madison WI, Rock Island ILL, a couple in the Dallas area, CA, VA, etc.
Some of the believer’s I know have friends in places I haven’t been to. When we talk they report the same things I’ve seen.
I’ve had a chance to see my fare share and it’s exactly like I described – most of them really aren’t doing all that much.
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uptown1
Tonto,
Let me try to clarify a bit.
I'm not saying they're not pleasing to God. Nor do I think that you have to have a following or that you will have one if you are active.
But I honestly don't see anyone really on fire for anything.
I have a friend who took it upon himself to study the creation/evolution controversy. He has no background in any related fields, but you wouldn't know that if you talked to him because of the huge time and money investment he made to learn every detail of his subject.
He created a presentation so he could present this information to others and has done just that.
No one asked him to do any of this. He doesn't get paid for it. He just thought it up and did it.
This is not the first thing like this he has done. He also travels around to different churches and does their praise and worship music for them.
In order to pull this off he has to meet with a band and practice regularly. (That’s another big time investment.)
Again, no one asked him to do this. No one pays him for it. He just though it up and did it.
Do you know how many ex-way people I've come across that have done anything like this - none. Unless you want to count the guys from CES. I'm sure there are a few others out there, but the key word here is "few."
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uptown1
Oh, Bella, I almost forgot. You asked me what I do with all the knowledge I acquire.
Well, that’s simple. I try to educate people like you, sweetheart.
But in your case it’s more like a forced feeding.
Yes, I’m clever too!
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tonto
Well, why do we have to be "on fire" for anything? I'm not good at finding the right words, but I think that seeking the flash and sparks and sizzle isn't a good thing. Especially after having come out of a cult or two. I believe we all had some ego "problens" or we wouldn't have bought into the special-knowledge-better-than-other-Christians-thing. IMO, quiet reflection and a good dose of humble is what I think we should seek.
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excathedra
i've done my time
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Mark Sanguinetti
The above is 100% correct. However, you saying that most ex-way people have not done much is factually incorrect and very short sighted. How do you know what ex-way people have done since leaving TWI? Many have got into business with success. I know of 2 people in Gilroy, CA who started a church/ministry including ownership of the physical church building. Incidentally, Karen Ann Graeser was very jealous of this when she heard about it after a CES meeting in California. A former Grease Spot Cafe poster is now a minister of a church in New York city. Pawtucket started a great web site and forum called Grease Spot Cafe. And I just recently passed the Real Estate broker's license exam for the state of California. And these are just a few examples.
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uptown1
For each person it’s going to be different.
Moses spent forty years in the wilderness before things got rolling.
Joseph spent quite a few years in slavery and prison before things took off.
Paul spent 14 years in Arabia (I think is was Arabia).
I have been moving rather slowly myself.
I see two basic reasons for slow growth. One is that the individual person needs time to grow so they can handle the job. This is when all the prep works get done. I believe that’s what Joseph was doing while he ran that guys business and then later the prison.
The other is that it’s not the right time. Israel spent 400 or 450 years in Egypt before it was the right time to come out. This was also a factor for Joseph. He couldn’t meet the baker and cupbearer until they were thrown into jail. He couldn’t interpret Pharaoh’s dream until he had it.
There are a variety of factors and for each person depending on their particular calling, physical location, and the timing of many other events these things are all going to be different.
What I’m concerned with is that a lot of people are just doing nothing. They’re just maintaining what they’ve got when they could be amping up for something. God has stuff going on everywhere, but if we refuse to get up off of the couch what can he do with us?
Your job is not your job. It’s what you do to pay the bills. It’s a means to an end – not the end. Your job is to work for God – that’s your primary occupation. We should all be involved in this whether we’re in the preparatory building up phase or we’re in the active phase.
God has tons of stuff you could do and that you would enjoy doing. A few months ago I started asking God to find someone for me to help – no particular reason why, I just did. One day on my way to my car I lady stopped me and asked if I could help her with her car.
She just moved here and just got a job and now her car was broke down. She was a single mother of two and was barely making ends meet. I couldn’t get her car working, so instead I drove her back and forth to work for a week.
I remember what she said when I, quite out of the blue offered to do this for her: “I was praying to God that he would help me.” She was praying that right when I walked out the door and our paths crossed.
Later in Corinthians I read what Paul said about giving. He said that when we give it causes praise to go up to God. I’m pretty sure that when her prayer was answered by my gift she praised God.
There are lots of jobs we can do.
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uptown1
I don't believe my assessment of ex-wayers is factually inaccurate.
The people you mentioned are the exception to the rule and as the old saying goes, "The exception proves the rule."
I could be wrong I suppose, but this is not my experience.
Which of the following statement rings more true to you.
1. The majority of ex-way followers are pastors of churches (or some other similar job).
2. The majority of ex-way followers are just living their life like everyone else on earth.
The answer just seems obvious to me.
Excathedra,
Yes, you’ve done your time – I a cult!
How about you do some time for God?
Ask God to pick a job for you that you would like, that agrees with your personality, etc.
I bet he’ll do it.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Uptown, do yourself a favor and study 1 corin. chapter 12 and then get back to us on this. But let me give you a small hint. Is being a pastor of a church (or something similar) the only important worthwhile job in the body of Christ? If you already know that the answer to this is NO, then please stop writing posts like you think this is the case.
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Ham
That "we" who know better are living OUR dream, better than the rest of "them" out in the world?
I'm just trying to understand what I'm hearing here..
Really?
I think that said person doesn't have the right job, or is plain oblivious to what they really have..
Some of us have found our calling and purpose in life in the "secular" relm.
I threw mine away over twenty years ago at the whim of some ideas from a half-baked cult in Ohio..
I feel like God saved it and didn't let it go to the dump.
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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