Letter from John Lynn

[Estimated Prophet]

Just gotta say, it seems to me that if a minister devoted his full time career to the work of the ministry--for say, twenty to thirty years!-- teaching the 'greatest known truth since the first century church,' there would be more good fruit to show for it than broken marriages, broken friendships, law suits, internal power plays and weird prophecies and manipulations.

Something basic and important is wrong. IMO, to continue following these leaders is foolish.

I have observed a ton of good fruit over the years.

Great friendships, healed marriages (mine being one) , inspired teachings and prophecies that energize genuine Faith and Love.

John Lynn, in particular, taught me to follow the Lord Jesus,

so that I don't have to be mislead by men.

So that I can have a genuine relationship with Jesus,

"...who picks up the threads of a broken heart

and weaves them together again..."

My Lord Jesus leads me to extend mercy, love, goodness, and wisdom

towards people who have not totally escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I'm one of those people too.

how did it go, Living Victoriously in Peace?

'Do you want to be frustrated?

Look at others

Do You wnat to be miserable?

Look at yourself

Do you want to have Peace?

Look at Jesus Christ'

and let me add,

while you're looking at Jesus,

he will show you how he looks at others and yourself,

and he will show you how you can serve him in working to heal and restore our hearts.

It is the most wonderful thing.

I recall discussing VPW with John Lynn 15 or so years ago,

and John wanting me to see how much "evil" was involved in the Way.

He didn't think I was seeing it for some reason.

I did, but

I still don't care to focus on that crap.

All that evil is fairly minimal

when compared to the tremendous Truth that was held forth by Dr W.

Likewise John L.

it's the same old story, the same old spiritual battle,

the same " strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow..."

[Bramble]

All that evil is fairly minimal

when compared to the tremendous Truth that was held forth by Dr W.

Likewise John L.

it's the same old story, the same old spiritual battle,

I disagree. The evil wasn't minimal to the people who experienced it. I have no interest in a religion or god who makes people expendable for the movement of his great Truth. Ignoring evil, the renewed mind at work.

No, thanks. You can keep your wonderful healing(?) Truth. Who wants that stuff? I feel dirty just considering that type of thought.

[sprawled out]

All that evil is fairly minimal

when compared to the tremendous Truth that was held forth by Dr W.

i think you need to poke around this site a bit. "dr." w was a liar and a thief. it's all here, EP. do some digging, if you really care about "the Truth."

[Estimated Prophet]

... I have no interest in a religion or god who makes people expendable for the movement of his great Truth.

I'm sorry that's your opinion, Bramble,

but I put it in the category of an implied evil accusation.

Honestly, Bramble,

what's going on in your heart to respond to my post like that?

Do you really believe people are considered "expendable" by the folks at S&T?

Wow.

That's really a hell of a thing to say.

and I suppose you are without sin and never caused anyone pain or distress...

Hmmm

I think you need to open your spiritual eyes and see who is really out to destroy people.

We are in a spiritual battle,

and unfortunately there are casualties,

All I know to do is look to Jesus Christ and to hold on to him as tight as I can.

That is not "dirty"

but actually the Way to healing, wholeness , and purity.

[Estimated Prophet]

i think you need to poke around this site a bit. "dr." w was a liar and a thief. it's all here, EP. do some digging, if you really care about "the Truth."

Shields UP !!!

( Hi Sprawled Out )

Dr W was a liar and a thief?

That is what I call a direct evil accusation.

As I said before,

there is a thing called the bondage of corruption that is in the world through Lust.

and there is only one way to escape it.

Jesus.

That is the truth I care about.

In the world, we are all guilty as sin.

In Christ we are cleansed from all impurities.

Sin is the problem.

Jesus is the Solution.

Walk On Sprawled Out

[VeganXTC]

I cannot and will not speak for Bramble, but I do agree with what she said. Of course I believe CES/STF considers people expendable. How can I believe differently when I read about what happened to Elizabeth Lynn? If the founder's wife is cast aside (and worse)when she is deemed unsuitable, what would happen to the average follower of CES/STI?

[Estimated Prophet]

God Have Mercy

I'm sorry that you see it that way.

I wonder what the view is like at the Right hand of God.

Hmmm

[Bramble]

Why would I say such a shocking thing?

Expendable people were very much a part if TWI. It was common during the nineties to see someone's life shredded one week, and the next week everyone pretend like it never happened, and talk about how blessed they were, while that shredded person got to try to pull their lives together.

Shred em up, kick em out, on with the things of the ministry.

Don't see that the apple fell very far from the tree.

[now I see]

Estimated,

How is it that what you're saying just sounds like a mass of rationalizations?

[Ham]

If the founder's wife is cast aside (and worse)when she is deemed unsuitable,

Happened in the parent organization, too.

[Bramble]

I think the TWI model of leadership might play a role in this discussion.

TWI leadership being charismatic, great public speakers, a aura of authority and command, flash and dash..though their personal life might be in shambles, no one was supposed to notice.

We often concluded that boy, howdy, he can teach the Word, it must be a gift ministry, when it may well have been a combination of personality, natural ability and good training.

Even in groups like WOW families, this played out. A total a h0le wow who got plenty of people in the class was lauded, while others who plodded through trying to be good people got ignored due to their lack of charisma and numbers( and no, I'm not whining about my wow year. We had waay other issues going on!)

Aggressive, out going, bold personalities were seen as leadership potential, while the quiet careful thoughtful folk weren't seen as having 'natural leadership ability.'

[Ham]

We often concluded that boy, howdy, he can teach the Word, it must be a gift ministry, when it may well have been a combination of personality, natural ability and good training.

Yep, I know that feeling- the "man" excitedly waving his arms around, shouting..

I don't know it was good training- maybe somebody just put a tack on his chair.

[WordWolf]

I have observed a ton of good fruit over the years.

Great friendships, healed marriages (mine being one) , inspired teachings and prophecies that energize genuine Faith and Love.

John Lynn, in particular, taught me to follow the Lord Jesus,

so that I don't have to be mislead by men.

[With the one hand, and taught you to follow him with the other-as this post indicates to me...]

So that I can have a genuine relationship with Jesus,

"...who picks up the threads of a broken heart

and weaves them together again..."

My Lord Jesus leads me to extend mercy, love, goodness, and wisdom

towards people who have not totally escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I'm one of those people too.

how did it go, Living Victoriously in Peace?

'Do you want to be frustrated?

Look at others

Do You wnat to be miserable?

Look at yourself

Do you want to have Peace?

Look at Jesus Christ'

[Never confuse a slogan for a policy, doctrine OR spiritual walk.]

and let me add,

while you're looking at Jesus,

he will show you how he looks at others and yourself,

and he will show you how you can serve him in working to heal and restore our hearts.

It is the most wonderful thing.

[Which has little to do with this discussion, actually.

Now, back to the topic of discussion...]

I recall discussing VPW with John Lynn 15 or so years ago,

and John wanting me to see how much "evil" was involved in the Way.

He didn't think I was seeing it for some reason.

I did, but

I still don't care to focus on that crap.

All that evil is fairly minimal

when compared to the tremendous Truth that was held forth by Dr W.

Likewise John L.

it's the same old story, the same old spiritual battle,

the same " strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow..."

[i'm going to spend some time here because I find this an especially vile post]

"I recall discussing VPW with John Lynn 15 or so years ago,

and John wanting me to see how much "evil" was involved in the Way.

He didn't think I was seeing it for some reason.

I did, but

I still don't care to focus on that crap."

[in other words,

John Lynn himself was well aware of the evils in twi (and is now oblivious to evils in ces/stfi

even when specifics are brought to him by people who know better),

and you consider the evils done by vpw himself, lcm and the trained cadre under vpw

as INSIGNIFICANT.

Women were raped, women were drugged, THEN raped, children were beaten 1/2 to

unconsciousness, some developing long-term psychological damage,

some children were molested and twi'ers did a breakin to steal evidence against the

"minister" who did it, and relocated him-more than once,

one man blew his brains out because lcm insisted on repeatedly having sex with that man's wife,

vast coverups of all the above were done,

women were raped as the result of mandatory hitchhiking to LEAD-and vpw himself blew off

the accounts and did nothing to change the program,

one corps participant was crippled from injuries caused by an accident in an unsafe vehicle

used by the corps- then was kicked out of the corps and committed suicide,

people leaving twi were told it would be better if they just killed themselves,

the corps were treated like slave labour for life-by vpw himself,

and the doctrine of "the lockbox"-all these things were PERMISSABLE for the top echelon

and anyone else should remain silent-

besides other evils that escape me at the moment-

and you considered all of that INSIGNIFICANT.][

"All that evil is fairly minimal

when compared to the tremendous Truth that was held forth by Dr W.

Likewise John L."

[First of all, lives were ENDED, lives were LOST, lives were RUINED,

and you consider those "fairly minimal."

I thank God you are not in charge of determining the value of MY OWN LIFE.

I consider each person worth more than that-

even when they utter such callous, despicable things.

To you, lives are EXPENDABLE

so long as the organization and its programs are reflecting the doctrines

you want.

That's what you just said.

Second of all,

you appear remarkably ill-informed as to the proven doctrinal errors in twi at the pen

of vpw, and the practical errors he did and taught were perfectly acceptable

(if you were in the inner cadre)

and are remarkably ill-informed to the degree that the entire package of twi-

excepting the permissiveness and policies I objected to-

were all ripped off from other Christians.

The entire pfal class was taken straight from the works of other Christians-

Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger- with vpw's name added and their names removed.

All the early twi books were taken directly from the books of other Christians-

with vpw's name added and their names removed.

All the later twi books were the work of twi research people-

with vpw's name added and their names never mentioned-

and not even mentioned by category (as in "the research dept worked on this".)

Third of all,

you seem determined to make

THE SAME MISTAKE

and give John L a free pass.

People's lives were ruined? Some had breakdowns? Some were destroyed by

Momentus, "personal prophecies", and ridicule from the pulpit?

Oh, that's not important- he's teaching the Doctrine I respect!

Ignore the lost and damaged lives.

In conclusion, you're reflecting a position of

"I got mine-who cares if you suffer?"

All the pious posting on the internet can't wipe away a callous heart, nor excuse it.]

"it's the same old story, the same old spiritual battle,"

[it is indeed.

Lives are STILL being sacrificed at the whims of leadership,

and other lives are GLOSSING THAT OVER.

I consider that SPIRITUAL DARKNESS.

You may consider that something else- like "excusable" or "crap" or "minimal".

Jesus cares about ALL Christians- not just the leaders-

and would NEVER allow the one lost sheep to be cast aside.

He makes sure the lost sheep is found.

How do you think he'd address the attitude that suffering Christians are "minimal"?]

[WordWolf]

Shields UP !!!

( Hi Sprawled Out )

Dr W was a liar and a thief?

That is what I call a direct evil accusation.

[sounds like you're calling the speaker "evil" for exposing a liar and a thief.

Or did you mean that differently?

That's fascinating- all the prophets of old would likewise be considered "evil" for performing

their assigned function. Many people in power claimed that, and inflicted suffering on them

for that. Remember what they did to Jeremiah? And he wasn't one of the one who was killed

outright for speaking up for God. You place yourself in the same camp as their afflicters when

you claim those who speak up are automatically "evil."

(I suppose the lookout on the Titanic-who spotted an iceberg- he was also "speaking evil" or some

other renamed foolishness.)

vpw performed direct evil.

He lied, he plagiarized, he stole, he deceived, he raped, he drugged, he exposed himself to

females, he played a pornographic bestiality video for some of the corps, he screamed at

people who failed to prostrate themselves sufficiently for him,

and other things.

All of those have been documented, in detail. By eyewitnesses and victims, and

sometimes official documents of twi. They're NOT hard to find.]

As I said before,

there is a thing called the bondage of corruption that is in the world through Lust.

[And vpw was firmly wound in it, and saw to it that others were caught as well.]

and there is only one way to escape it.

Jesus.

[ultimately, yes. This does not dismiss the functions of RIGHT ACTION and

ABSTAINING from even the APPEARANCE of evil, let alone the PERFORMANCE of evil.]

That is the truth I care about.

In the world, we are all guilty as sin.

In Christ we are cleansed from all impurities.

[And all the OTHER truths are those you care NOTHING about-

like the ongoing performance of evil-so long as you approve of the performer's doctrine

and delivery-

and it's not YOU or YOURS that are being victimized.

I bet your pious posturing tune would change in an INSTANT if one of those

so-called servants of God drugged and raped your wife or daughter.

Would it be "Oh, turn to Jesus, sweet one, he will deliver you from your suffering?"

NO-

it would be "He did WHAT? I'll take care of this-where'd I leave my pistol and baseball bat?"

And if your response would NOT be outrage,

then SHAME ON YOU.

SHAME ON YOU for having such a callous, atrophied heart that you can't see the need

to avenge the suffering of the innocent.]

[Estimated Prophet]

"[i'm going to spend some time here because I find this an especially vile post]"

WordWolf

You've a right to your opinions everyone.

I suppose if you don't believe in an accounting for disobedience before the righteous judge at the Bema, then you'll need to get your ball bat or sharpen your pen and take matters into your own hands. That's the way of Iniquity and lawlwssness as I see it , but go ahead and have at it.

What justifies your vile words towards me Mr Wordwolf?

How is that different from the motives that justified all the physical and verbal abuse that you are so outraged at CES for inflicting on people?

If you would simply forgive, you could let go of all that baggage.

Sounds like you are still following the letter of Way Corps training rather than the Prince of Peace.

We are all so quick to seize the error and magnify it way beyond proportion.

'John Lynn insulted us because he won't post here"

Outrageous!!!

and who is he that would lay anything to the charge of God's elect?

Evil is as Evil does.

Shall we overcome evil with evil?

or overcome evil with good?

Sin and Death?

Life and Peace?

Your choice.

"Liar and Theif"? or

" Holy and Without Blame"?

One can make a case for either side.

I choose to believe the Word.

and I will reprove rebuke and admonish In season and Out of season when called upon.

( like right at this moment )

I am preacing the power of the Cross.

Foolish to some. ( rationalizing?)

A stumbilng block to others.

But to those who are being saved it is the power of God.

Can anybody hear me? !!

My picture is of a skeleton in a jester's costume. (holding the harp unstrung)

It is a reflection of my my foolish preaching out of a broken and corrupted body.

See Gal 2:20 and I Cor 1-4, Eph 2

The Cross represents the ultimate of cruelty and abuse anyone ever inflicted upon another.

It represents the depravity of the unredeemed soul.

It represents the consequences of evil actions.

It also represents the ultimate expresion of Love,

that our Savior would take that sort of punishment on our behalf,

and then forgive the ones who killed him.

It represents the lamb of God

that takes away the sins of VPW and John Lynn and You and Me...

I suggest you spend some time at the Cross Mr. Wordwolf,

and let its wonder working power soak in.

This is the same truth I spoke to John Lynn,

and he responded in much the same manner as you Mr. WordWolf.

Lets make sure everybody knows all the rotten things that were done.

Really.

Is that the wisdom from above ? Hmmmmm

Now, after 15 years of attacking and being attacked, what has this method amounted to?

And I will fight for you too WordWolf,

just like I will fight for John Lynn,

and for the honor of Jesus Christ whom we like to think we are serving.

[undone]

Can anybody hear me? !!

Quote: Estimated Prophet

I can hear you EP, I have enjoyed reading your post and can see the Christ shinning through.

I wonder sometimes why you take the abuse you take from some of these people, I guess again

it must be that Christ within. Bless you Bro., I hear ya.

Undone

[rascal]

Estimated Prophet, What is it about wolfs post that offends you precisely? The fact that John Lynn is too good to address me here, that we are considered perpetually whining victims or back biters and hard hearted frankly, offends me too.

As far as what happened in twi as *minimal evil* that is extremely offensive when people litterally lost their lives.

Please re read the post, I think you may have misjudged and charged him falsely. Wolf makes some excellent points if you can read him without becoming irrationally angry. I think that there are some salient points to consider if you can set aside your frustration long enough to consider friend.

In your address to sprawled out...do you think that vpw was not a liar and thief? You must not have known him very well. Can you set aside his public persona ...the face that he wanted everyone to see and honestly view what he was in his private life?

I take it from your post that you were never personally close and are unaware of much of what he did.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey undone, why are you offended with folks here? Is it because we talk about what these people did to us?

It sometimes feels like folks get more angry at us for telling what happened than the perpetrators who assaulted us.

I don`t understand why the people who merely report the abuse are treated with such venom and and accusations, while love and respect are reserved for the perpetrators of the evil....sigh

Your mad at the wrong guys people.

Edited March 15, 2007 by rascal

[pond]

Allow me to break down EP theory of life as he writes it.

He has the ability and special powers to do special work for God which then allows him into a special power fantasy spiritual place that no one at GS can go or do.

THEN he demands loyalty to those others he decides also has a special above the rest special power .

Then the most important part is when the special powers hurt Gods children it is quickly excused and dismissed because God forgives them and it is evil to speak "evil" (I think the word in the real world is truth) of those who he has demaded loyalty.

So the theme of "speaking the truth in love" twists and morphs into Speak what my loyal firends want you to speak about them or we will consider it evil.

so the truth is in the mouth and mind of how anyone needs to twist it, to cover for all the grief and pain when the theory falls short of blessing anyone and hurts people.

that is the reality of a cult. of using words and one another as a battle ax to kill steal and destroy.

anyone can twist word to apply how they see fit ! cult people have few other relationships in life other than one another.

ex twi and ces folks are very good at it because of the amount of words we know. and the friends we have in a cult .

I can do it.

I could slap you silly with bible verse and storys of how your wrong.

but I do not use the bible as a weapon to cause strife and hurt another.

that is your gig.

not Gods YOURS.

what do you get?

a feeling of being so Godly you are almost Jesus christ.

that it is evil.

[Ham]

If you would simply forgive, you could let go of all that baggage.

I think you are confusing forgiveness, and common sense. According to Mark Twain, a cat burned sitting on a hot stove, will not sit on it again. You can yell at the cat, telling it how evil it is, how unloving it is to exclude the hot stove from full sharing in its life.

But despite passionate pleas for love and forgiveness, and to let go of its "negative" painful "baggage" in its memory, it just won't listen.

Oh, the pain...

So, ignoring the fact that those who supposedly have "da power" are living a broken life, not unlike the rest of us, have the same bodily functions, and put their pants on the same way in the morning, despite the claims, promises, and innuendo otherwise, let's just put down our "differences", and set upon the stove once again..

[therebutforgrace]

rascal wrote....You're mad at the wrong guys, people.

Maybe what we need to see is that being mad at ANY 'guys' is wrong.

Whether they cause it, receive it or expose it.

The Word says we don't wrestle against flesh and blood.

It's either true or it isn't.

Obviously, the flesh and blood people are the ones who say and do the hurtful things.

And ignoring those sins does not make them go away.

If someone knew a child molester moved next door to you, would you want her to tell you, your neighbors and the principal of your elementary school?

If she brought his sin into the light would you, the neighbors or the principal indict her for that sin?

Would you think she caused the problem?

Would you all get together and growl, "Everything was fine in this neighborhood until she started stirring up trouble!"?

I don't think so.

NOTE: If she LIED about the person, or even if it were true but she exposed it in an ungodly manner...(fearfully, pridefully, vengefully, arrogantly, dishonestly, unethically, or in any way unlovingly).....then you could hold her accountable for that sin. But even in that case, would you confuse her sin with the molester's sin?

I don't think so.

So.....it seems to me that confusing those sins here at GreaseSpot is what makes rascal right in saying....

It sometimes feels like folks get more angry at us for telling what happened than the perpetrators who assaulted us.

Personally, I am not mad at any human.

but I am angry about what humans do.

And I am angry with the devil who has deceived the humans into doing it.

When I'm angry at God's enemy, I more easily keep myself separate from acting like hiim!

And I'm energized to right the wrongs.

As best I can, I speak truth (in love) both to the guys who hurt people...and to the guys whom they have hurt.

Sadly, I've been in both roles in my life.

Mercifully, the Lord convicted me in the former, and comforted me in the latter, so I now attempt to live my life as His representative, doing the same thing for others as He did for me.

I will do whatever I can to bring an end to evil. And I do it by remembering to direct my anger ---not to ANY guys...not to any people.....but to the SOURCE--God's enemy, Satan. I then engage my weapons that are not carnal but mighty to the pulling down of strongholds (lies we humans believe and therefore act on)....and Christ gets the vicotry and the glory!

If those who hurt people do not repent privately, speaking the truth to them becomes more public--and those of us who hear about it can stand with those actually involved in it by remembering that we don't beat evil by becoming like it....and by remembering that the GOAL is Repentance...so there is change...so evil ends.

This is a wonderful forum where hidden things can be brought to light so that we can know where to use our authority in Christ to STOP the enemy from continuing to use our brothers/sisters in Christ for his purposes.

Thanks again, Paw, for making this available.

Edited March 15, 2007 by therebutforgrace

[pond]

this is what I do not understand.

If it is all about forgivness and being loyal to those "in the house" then why does that NOT apply when we speak the truth of their life?

why does it have to be sugar coated?

why cant the truth be told?

is it possible your afraid forgivness wont be granted?

God does forgive.

people might not.. hmmm the "special above the rest power" isnt from the people is it? so you say.

no but what is?

money

and the victims of your game.

so you can not fight God or hurt him with the power... but people you can.

do you need God?

or people?

when I break it down it seems God is of no use to you but you must have people and to use this fantasy power you need quite a lot from people who will comply with the program.

erase Jesus all together much?

if the truth is told without your spin, people may not believe what you say or they preach.

and you claim then God will not be happy, or is it really the people who will not comply with what the people want.

you can not stop God from loving His children but that is the threat YOU use if the truth is revealed about people you worship.

Jesus christ knows us, and knows our details in life and will forgive.. what is the problem then?

people worship could end.

ohno

because people meet the needs of people ? and that is who you place your trust and why your AFRAID of the man behind the curtain inside may be shown as the same as the rest as needing a Saviour.

not a man , and then they would stop the worship of men and the money and well truth be told the entire lifestyle and system will just fall apart.

YOu as a soldiers fighting cant let that happen can you because then YOU would have to worship a invisable God and a spirit that is in the name of jesus christ, and you know better with your special power to TRUST in that truth.

[Ham]

Maybe what we need to see is that being mad at ANY 'guys' is wrong.

Whether they cause it, receive it or expose it.

I used to think this too.

But when the SAME kind of people, kept doing the SAME kind of evil and abuse, where is one to draw the line..

the devil makes too easy a scapegoat, in my opinion.

It's too easy to crush God's people with callous disregard, and simply say "just forgive, the devil made me do it, besides, my "package" is the greatest, keep the money coming.."

I think the "blame the devil" concept is often used to enable the abuser, to abuse again, and again, and again..

[WordWolf]

"[i'm going to spend some time here because I find this an especially vile post]"

WordWolf

You've a right to your opinions everyone.

I suppose if you don't believe in an accounting for disobedience before the righteous judge at the Bema, then you'll need to get your ball bat or sharpen your pen and take matters into your own hands. That's the way of Iniquity and lawlwssness as I see it , but go ahead and have at it.

[i suppose so.

Of course, that's a bizarre distortion of what you THINK I believe based on a single off-hand comment made which

also suggested opening discussion on the subject, but whatever you need to salve your own conscience,

I suppose. It's far easier just to lull the conscience, rationalize the hurts of others, and go about

your own business. To actually follow ALL God's injunctions takes work, sometimes hurts-a lot,

and involves actually caring about other people. I imagine that's not for everyone.

(Not that I hold myself as an exemplar of this either.)]

What justifies your vile words towards me Mr Wordwolf?

How is that different from the motives that justified all the physical and verbal abuse that you are so outraged at CES for inflicting on people?

[Well, I already posted it, but it seems your comprehension skills didn't seem up to the task, earlier up the page or

so.

You said

"I recall discussing VPW with John Lynn 15 or so years ago,

and John wanting me to see how much "evil" was involved in the Way.

He didn't think I was seeing it for some reason.

I did, but

I still don't care to focus on that crap."

and I replied

"[in other words,

John Lynn himself was well aware of the evils in twi (and is now oblivious to evils in ces/stfi

even when specifics are brought to him by people who know better),

and you consider the evils done by vpw himself, lcm and the trained cadre under vpw

as INSIGNIFICANT.

Women were raped, women were drugged, THEN raped, children were beaten 1/2 to

unconsciousness, some developing long-term psychological damage,

some children were molested and twi'ers did a breakin to steal evidence against the

"minister" who did it, and relocated him-more than once,

one man blew his brains out because lcm insisted on repeatedly having sex with that man's wife,

vast coverups of all the above were done,

women were raped as the result of mandatory hitchhiking to LEAD-and vpw himself blew off

the accounts and did nothing to change the program,

one corps participant was crippled from injuries caused by an accident in an unsafe vehicle

used by the corps- then was kicked out of the corps and committed suicide,

people leaving twi were told it would be better if they just killed themselves,

the corps were treated like slave labour for life-by vpw himself,

and the doctrine of "the lockbox"-all these things were PERMISSABLE for the top echelon

and anyone else should remain silent-

besides other evils that escape me at the moment-

and you considered all of that INSIGNIFICANT.]

You said

""All that evil is fairly minimal

when compared to the tremendous Truth that was held forth by Dr W.

Likewise John L."

and I replied

"[First of all, lives were ENDED, lives were LOST, lives were RUINED,

and you consider those "fairly minimal."

I thank God you are not in charge of determining the value of MY OWN LIFE.

I consider each person worth more than that-

even when they utter such callous, despicable things.

To you, lives are EXPENDABLE

so long as the organization and its programs are reflecting the doctrines

you want.

That's what you just said.

Second of all,

you appear remarkably ill-informed as to the proven doctrinal errors in twi at the pen

of vpw, and the practical errors he did and taught were perfectly acceptable

(if you were in the inner cadre)

and are remarkably ill-informed to the degree that the entire package of twi-

excepting the permissiveness and policies I objected to-

were all ripped off from other Christians.

The entire pfal class was taken straight from the works of other Christians-

Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger- with vpw's name added and their names removed.

All the early twi books were taken directly from the books of other Christians-

with vpw's name added and their names removed.

All the later twi books were the work of twi research people-

with vpw's name added and their names never mentioned-

and not even mentioned by category (as in "the research dept worked on this".)

Third of all,

you seem determined to make

THE SAME MISTAKE

and give John L a free pass.

People's lives were ruined? Some had breakdowns? Some were destroyed by

Momentus, "personal prophecies", and ridicule from the pulpit?

Oh, that's not important- he's teaching the Doctrine I respect!

Ignore the lost and damaged lives.

In conclusion, you're reflecting a position of

"I got mine-who cares if you suffer?"

All the pious posting on the internet can't wipe away a callous heart, nor excuse it.]

You said

""it's the same old story, the same old spiritual battle,"

and I replied

"[it is indeed.

Lives are STILL being sacrificed at the whims of leadership,

and other lives are GLOSSING THAT OVER.

I consider that SPIRITUAL DARKNESS.

You may consider that something else- like "excusable" or "crap" or "minimal".

Jesus cares about ALL Christians- not just the leaders-

and would NEVER allow the one lost sheep to be cast aside.

He makes sure the lost sheep is found.

How do you think he'd address the attitude that suffering Christians are "minimal"?]"

You said

"That is the truth I care about.

In the world, we are all guilty as sin.

In Christ we are cleansed from all impurities."

and I replied

"[And all the OTHER truths are those you care NOTHING about-

like the ongoing performance of evil-so long as you approve of the performer's doctrine

and delivery-

and it's not YOU or YOURS that are being victimized.

I bet your pious posturing tune would change in an INSTANT if one of those

so-called servants of God drugged and raped your wife or daughter.

Would it be "Oh, turn to Jesus, sweet one, he will deliver you from your suffering?"

NO-

it would be "He did WHAT? I'll take care of this-where'd I leave my pistol and baseball bat?"

And if your response would NOT be outrage,

then SHAME ON YOU.

SHAME ON YOU for having such a callous, atrophied heart that you can't see the need

to avenge the suffering of the innocent.]"

I consider the systematic excusing of evil as justification-

the vileness of your OWN words, the relabelling of "evil" as "good."

Isaiah 5:20

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

The injunctions to CEASE using our senses to discern good and evil,

contrary to God's instructions.

Hebrews 5:14

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So, call my words "vile" all you wish, if it salves your conscience.

It's just another example of swapping the labels.

And if you can't tell the difference between a warning OF evil-

which I've done and JAL and ces ONCE did-

and the inflicting of harm by inventing spiders up the nose and other things to savage a reputation,

then nothing else I say can show it to you.]

If you would simply forgive, you could let go of all that baggage.

["1 Peter 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

I can try it God's method,

or I can try it your method,

and use "a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep" (Proverbs)

when my fellow Christians are harmed and suffer.

Your method's a LOT less work.]

Sounds like you are still following the letter of Way Corps training rather than the Prince of Peace.

We are all so quick to seize the error and magnify it way beyond proportion.

[Then you need your hearing checked.

Being a Christian is SOMETIMES about Peace- Shalom Shalom-

and sometimes about that peace motivating ACTION.

And speak for yourself when "magnifying error way beyond proportion."

I've confined my discussions to the letter of what's been documented-

both on this and other threads.]

'John Lynn insulted us because he won't post here"

Outrageous!!!

[Now that's a fine example of "magnifying way beyond proportion."

Kindly cite where I made such an outrageous claim.

I claimed JAL insulted us when he made a insults and attempted to

poison the well and claimed we'd only "take potshots" at him,

and say we "lack love and courage."

Forget already?

Check out the first post of this thread- the ending is where he said each of those.

I made no claims that refusing to post here, in and of itself, was an insult.

Kindly cite the post where such a claim was made by me.

I say it indicates certain things, but not that it's an insult.]

and who is he that would lay anything to the charge of God's elect?

Evil is as Evil does.

["Galatians 2:11.

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."

That Paul must have been soooo Evil, according to your measure.

"II Timothy 2:14

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:"

There he goes again.

If Paul's a bad Christian by your lights, then I'd GLADLY join him and suffer your label, your stigma,

for actually daring to call good "good", evil "evil" and hold Christians-especially leaders-

accountable for their actions.]

Shall we overcome evil with evil?

or overcome evil with good?

[Overcome evil with good.

"Overcome" is a verb, and denotes ACTION.]

Sin and Death?

Life and Peace?

Your choice.

"Liar and Theif"? or

" Holy and Without Blame"?

[This "black and white" thinking has hobbled men of conscience for millenia.

"Liar" when a man lies,

"thief" when a man steals,

and "holy and without blame" when justified by God.

"Ephesians 4:28

Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."

Seems God can tell the difference, and expects us to NOT lie, and NOT steal.

"Romans 6:11-16

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Seems God does, at that.]

One can make a case for either side.

[seems the strength of the meaning of the verses is on the Christian being

responsible for NOT SINNING.]

I choose to believe the Word.

and I will reprove rebuke and admonish In season and Out of season when called upon.

( like right at this moment )

I am preacing the power of the Cross.

Foolish to some. ( rationalizing?)

A stumbilng block to others.

But to those who are being saved it is the power of God.

[And, naturally, skipping those parts of The Word that seem "too harsh" and are

inconvenient to one's conscience.]

Can anybody hear me? !!

My picture is of a skeleton in a jester's costume. (holding the harp unstrung)

It is a reflection of my my foolish preaching out of a broken and corrupted body.

See Gal 2:20 and I Cor 1-4, Eph 2

The Cross represents the ultimate of cruelty and abuse anyone ever inflicted upon another.

It represents the depravity of the unredeemed soul.

It represents the consequences of evil actions.

It also represents the ultimate expresion of Love,

that our Savior would take that sort of punishment on our behalf,

and then forgive the ones who killed him.

It represents the lamb of God

that takes away the sins of VPW and John Lynn and You and Me...

[And according to God's Word,

this is not an excuse to sin any further.

Romans 6:1

"1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

God forbid.

This means that JAL and WordWolf and Estimated Prophet are all

RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS, for good or ill,

for help or harm.

This includes actions and words.

Matthew 12:36

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

I suggest you spend some time at the Cross Mr. Wordwolf,

and let its wonder working power soak in.

This is the same truth I spoke to John Lynn,

and he responded in much the same manner as you Mr. WordWolf.

Lets make sure everybody knows all the rotten things that were done.

[Let a wise man build his house on solid ground, and discern the face

of the seasons, and be warned against danger.

Ezekiel 33:1-11

"1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

6But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

7So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

8When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Warning people is in God's repertoire and in his instructions.]

Really.

Is that the wisdom from above ? Hmmmmm

Now, after 15 years of attacking and being attacked, what has this method amounted to?

[if that's ALL you've gleaned from the past 15 years of JAL's life,

I'd recommend looking more closely.

I hold him responsible for a LOT more than you do, and I'm aware that he's spent a

considerable amount of time TRYING to do good.]

And I will fight for you too WordWolf,

just like I will fight for John Lynn,

and for the honor of Jesus Christ whom we like to think we are serving.

[Consider Ezekiel 33:13, and ask if you're really using ALL the proper tools....

"13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."]

[rascal]

You are a lot nicer person than me tbftg.....

I figure each one of us wakes up each day and decides what kind of person they are going to be.

Each one of us decides if we are going to be kind and helpfull or cause pain and heartache.

That people chose to be evil makes me despise them.....They could as easily choose to be a blessing.

It reminds me of the differences listed in galatians between those of the flesh and those of the spirit. I hvae no respect for those who chose to act as if they are *of the flesh* with *no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven*

I am sorry, I just don`t have any respect for them.

Edited March 15, 2007 by rascal

[WordWolf]

Estimated Prophet, What is it about wolfs post that offends you precisely? The fact that John Lynn is too good to address me here, that we are considered perpetually whining victims or back biters and hard hearted frankly, offends me too.

As far as what happened in twi as *minimal evil* that is extremely offensive when people litterally lost their lives.

Please re read the post, I think you may have misjudged and charged him falsely. Wolf makes some excellent points if you can read him without becoming irrationally angry. I think that there are some salient points to consider if you can set aside your frustration long enough to consider friend.

In your address to sprawled out...do you think that vpw was not a liar and thief? You must not have known him very well. Can you set aside his public persona ...the face that he wanted everyone to see and honestly view what he was in his private life?

I take it from your post that you were never personally close and are unaware of much of what he did.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey undone, why are you offended with folks here? Is it because we talk about what these people did to us?

It sometimes feels like folks get more angry at us for telling what happened than the perpetrators who assaulted us.

I don`t understand why the people who merely report the abuse are treated with such venom and and accusations, while love and respect are reserved for the perpetrators of the evil....sigh

Your mad at the wrong guys people.