Remaining convinced for YEARS that what he uttered is TRUTH, despite clear convincing evidence otherwise..
excusing his immorality, plagiarism and abuse as mere human traits, when flogging is not sufficient enough punishment, for others caught in the same kind of habits.. "god" can do no wrong..
It seems like sometimes people want to put VPW on some kind of lofty pedestal and find some profound wisdom in his words and actions. (Why in session three at exactly the 7 minute and 7 second mark did he scratch his nose 3 times with his right hand? Was he giving us some privleged signal alerting us to some deep truth? )WAKE UP! No one wants to admit they have been conned, but that is what happened to us. I work with someone who was involved with a cult I had never heard of at about the same time I was involved with TWI. We compared notes on several occasions and the similarities between the two were astoundingly similar. Somehow even if we accept that The Way was a cult we want to think it was superior to other cults. Maybe VP started out with good intentions,I don't know, but for a long, long time he lived the life of a con-man and we were the willing suckers. There are some people who will never simply accept that they were flim-flammed and exalting VPW makes it easier to hold onto that belief.
It seems like sometimes people want to put VPW on some kind of lofty pedestal and find some profound wisdom in his words and actions. (Why in session three at exactly the 7 minute and 7 second mark did he scratch his nose 3 times with his right hand? Was he giving us some privleged signal alerting us to some deep truth? )WAKE UP! No one wants to admit they have been conned, but that is what happened to us. I work with someone who was involved with a cult I had never heard of at about the same time I was involved with TWI. We compared notes on several occasions and the similarities between the two were astoundingly similar. Somehow even if we accept that The Way was a cult we want to think it was superior to other cults. Maybe VP started out with good intentions,I don't know, but for a long, long time he lived the life of a con-man and we were the willing suckers. There are some people who will never simply accept that they were flim-flammed and exalting VPW makes it easier to hold onto that belief.
Often the expression 'they worship VPW' comes up here at GS.
What does this mean to you?
It means (to me) that what he taught is accepted unquestioningly, what he did is excused, and arguments are "resolved" by referring to what Wierwille said.
Does accepting some of what he taught and choosing to fellowship with others of a like mind constitute worship to you.
No, of course not. But often the acceptance of the "some" is without question, and the like-minded fellowship is groupthink.
If I recognize that I learned something from his ministry and that I'm glad that he taught it, do you think that I worship him?
No. But often those who do so think that those who don't "recognize" those things are looked down on.
So . . . can I assume everyone, without exception, that attends an offshoot or likes PFAL worships VPW?
I think that those who turn a blind eye to the plagiarism, abuse and worse, and slobber over old vics name with labels like "the teacher" and "the man of god" do.
PFAL wasn't even his material, to begin with.
I think he was a scam artist, a fraud, a huckster.. he sold us a stolen package that he claimed was his own work.
Mixed with just enough poison to make us really sick:
"we should come to the place that we realize we owe our VERY LIVES to the ministry that taught us the word.."
The scam was SO good, it's what.. twenty some years after his death, and people STILL believe it.
I think that those who turn a blind eye to the plagiarism, abuse and worse, and slobber over old vics name with labels like "the teacher" and "the man of god" do.
PFAL wasn't even his material, to begin with.
I think he was a scam artist, a fraud, a huckster.. he sold us a stolen package that he claimed was his own work.
Mixed with just enough poison to make us really sick:
"we should come to the place that we realize we owe our VERY LIVES to the ministry that taught us the word.."
The scam was SO good, it's what.. twenty some years after his death, and people STILL believe it
Fair enough... and I know that those folks are out there. But I also know some who accept much of PFAL as good foundational teaching with full awareness that it was not VPW's work to begin with.
I guess I get it from the same logic that Belle used to suggest that I read links about rape to answer my question as to how do you define worship and does attending an offshoot = worshipping VPW.
Seems like good Greasespot logic to me.
Food for thought: Could the rape suggestion be a strawman?
I guess I get it from the same logic that Belle used to suggest that I read links about rape to answer my question as to how do you define worship and does attending an offshoot = worshipping VPW.
Seems like good Greasespot logic to me.
Food for thought: Could the rape suggestion be a strawman?
huh? I got what Belle said, but you confused me with the strawman question.
"great leaps of illogic and fantasy some folks will go to in order to defend the man they worship"... they can't help but excuse the most base of behaviors in their object of worship, because if they don't, he will not be worthy of worship.
seemed pretty plain. define worship: holding his (vpw's) image in unsullied regard, I will deny all attacks against his character, be they theft, plagiarism, drunkeness, lying... even rape. that's what his worshippers do.
The point of reading the rape threads is that there are people who excuse what Wierwille did because he taught "The Word like it hasn't been known since the first century," and therefore, we are to overlook his "faults" because he did something so good. After all, he was only human.
If I learned math from a teacher who later molested a student, should I give up what I learned about math? No. But should I be thankful to the point of excusing the teacher's molestation, because he taught me math?
The Wierwille "worshippers," IMO, want to elevate VPW to a status above accountability. MOG-dom should give him a free pass. Read the Mike threads, where he felt that God chose him especially because he was a renegade and a free thinker.
When Wierwille raped, molested, verbally abused, drank to excess, and systematically plagiarized (sorry to put these all in a list, they are not equal), he was not acting like a MOG, a superhuman, or even a human. As far as I'm concerned, this was pretty sub-human behavior. And gratitude for things learned should not extend to excusing evil.
"The point of reading the rape threads is that there are people who excuse what Wierwille did because he taught "The Word like it hasn't been known since the first century," and therefore, we are to overlook his "faults" because he did something so good. After all, he was only human. "
""great leaps of illogic and fantasy some folks will go to in order to defend the man they worship"... they can't help but excuse the most base of behaviors in their object of worship, because if they don't, he will not be worthy of worship.
seemed pretty plain. define worship: holding his (vpw's) image in unsullied regard, I will deny all attacks against his character, be they theft, plagiarism, drunkeness, lying... even rape. that's what his worshippers do."
I have said nothing about excusing VPW.
Attending a TWI offshoot is not synonymous with worshipping VPW , excusing VPW, or condoning rape.
Accepting the content of PFAL is not synonymous with worshipping VPW , excusing VPW, or condoning rape.
I do not worship or excuse VPW. I do not condone or excuse rape.
So . . . can I assume everyone, without exception, that attends an offshoot or likes PFAL worships VPW?
(Assuming also that attending an offshoot and likes PFAL = worship)
Or is that everyone without distinction?
You could probably assume some who head up these groups, promote most of the things Mr. Wierwille did, speak of him in reverential tones, regard him as a legitimate "Doctor" (and still refer to him with that one-word honorific), and still make reference to his little "bon mots" as words to live by (especially when they knew of his darker, seamier side), may be indulging in, if not "worship", then undeserved adulation.
Many who attend these groups may also be similarly afflicted.
Everyone? Nah...unless they willingly kiss the Founding MOG's statuette. (I'm still laughing over that one. A statuette? "But...but...it's just because we love him so!")
Attending a TWI offshoot is not synonymous with worshipping VPW , excusing VPW, or condoning rape.
Well, it certainly doesn't have to be. It depends on how much the offshoot (and the people who run it) is like TWI.
Accepting the content of PFAL is not synonymous with worshipping VPW , excusing VPW, or condoning rape.
That depends. How independently have you considered the information presented in the Power for Abundant Living class series? Or do you have a mindset of "'Doctor' said it...that settles it!"?
Like "all without exception" vs. "all without distinction". Does the mind still glaze over with the brilliance of "Doctor's" juxtaposition in his handling of the Word, or does the lightbulb go off when you realize, "Hey! They mean the same frakin' thing!"
Does even the possibility of entertaining the thought, "Maybe the whole Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, isn't the revealed Word and Will of God," fill you with dread, self-loathing and an irrational fear that you might soil yourself in condemnation and sin-conciousness?
To me, asking questions about what is conventionally accepted is the beginning of knowledge, starting with its most basic, foundational tenets.
Especially if the group which chiefly expounded those tenets is in the toilet, spiritually and ethically speaking.
And, knowing the depths of how people have been abused and degraded by "Doctor" Wierwille, why wouldn't you question everything the man ever said or did?
To those who would accept PFAL without deeper reflection, and would accept those who re-package and promote it, I would only say
That depends. How independently have you considered the information presented in the Power for Abundant Living class series?
Enough for my satisfaction.
Or do you have a mindset of "'Doctor' said it...that settles it!"?
No. Trust me.
And, knowing the depths of how people have been abused and degraded by "Doctor" Wierwille, why wouldn't you question everything the man ever said or did?
I have. But I realize that much of what he taught did not originate with him. It took me some time to see this.
To those who would accept PFAL without deeper reflection, and would accept those who re-package and promote it, I would only say
Caveat emptor - Let the buyer beware.
That is good advice for everyone, everywhere. (without exception/without distinction)
You want more? Start with reading the threads on rape.
Belle,
I missed your point at first. I see that you are answering my question as to what constitutes worshipping VPW.
Basically I agree with you - I have met people such as this.
My point is that if I, or anyone else, accepts PFAL as good teaching, or attends an 'offshoot' does not mean that we worship, condone, or excuse VPW of anything.
Thanks for your input.
i believe the revelation changed to WITH distinction
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Ham
What I think worshipping da MOG means:
Remaining convinced for YEARS that what he uttered is TRUTH, despite clear convincing evidence otherwise..
excusing his immorality, plagiarism and abuse as mere human traits, when flogging is not sufficient enough punishment, for others caught in the same kind of habits.. "god" can do no wrong..
that's about it.
well, you asked!
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waysider
It seems like sometimes people want to put VPW on some kind of lofty pedestal and find some profound wisdom in his words and actions. (Why in session three at exactly the 7 minute and 7 second mark did he scratch his nose 3 times with his right hand? Was he giving us some privleged signal alerting us to some deep truth? )WAKE UP! No one wants to admit they have been conned, but that is what happened to us. I work with someone who was involved with a cult I had never heard of at about the same time I was involved with TWI. We compared notes on several occasions and the similarities between the two were astoundingly similar. Somehow even if we accept that The Way was a cult we want to think it was superior to other cults. Maybe VP started out with good intentions,I don't know, but for a long, long time he lived the life of a con-man and we were the willing suckers. There are some people who will never simply accept that they were flim-flammed and exalting VPW makes it easier to hold onto that belief.
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NewParadigm
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excathedra
if you knew veepee like i knew veepee oh oh oh what a mog
(sung to the tune of if you knew susie)
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NewParadigm
Thanks, but I'll stick with Susie.
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excathedra
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Oakspear
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Ham
I just wish the SOB didn't give us so many choices.. the little good he did seems so far buried in manure, from my vantage point..
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Ham
Yeah, on one hand, you can't disqualify the good some received, on the other hand, you can't deny the abuse others endured.
I really wish all of this was easier.
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Belle
NP, this thread is one example of the great leaps of illogic and fantasy some folks will go to in order to defend the man they worship.
Here's another one.
You want more? Start with reading the threads on rape.
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NewParadigm
So . . . can I assume everyone, without exception, that attends an offshoot or likes PFAL worships VPW?
(Assuming also that attending an offshoot and likes PFAL = worship)
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Ham
I think that those who turn a blind eye to the plagiarism, abuse and worse, and slobber over old vics name with labels like "the teacher" and "the man of god" do.
PFAL wasn't even his material, to begin with.
I think he was a scam artist, a fraud, a huckster.. he sold us a stolen package that he claimed was his own work.
Mixed with just enough poison to make us really sick:
"we should come to the place that we realize we owe our VERY LIVES to the ministry that taught us the word.."
The scam was SO good, it's what.. twenty some years after his death, and people STILL believe it.
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Oakspear
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NewParadigm
I think that those who turn a blind eye to the plagiarism, abuse and worse, and slobber over old vics name with labels like "the teacher" and "the man of god" do.
PFAL wasn't even his material, to begin with.
I think he was a scam artist, a fraud, a huckster.. he sold us a stolen package that he claimed was his own work.
Mixed with just enough poison to make us really sick:
"we should come to the place that we realize we owe our VERY LIVES to the ministry that taught us the word.."
The scam was SO good, it's what.. twenty some years after his death, and people STILL believe it
Fair enough... and I know that those folks are out there. But I also know some who accept much of PFAL as good foundational teaching with full awareness that it was not VPW's work to begin with.
"I think he was a scam artist"
BTW, my former screen name was WeWereScammed.
Tell me about it.
(ps) I was never scammed by the Word.
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NewParadigm
I guess I get it from the same logic that Belle used to suggest that I read links about rape to answer my question as to how do you define worship and does attending an offshoot = worshipping VPW.
Seems like good Greasespot logic to me.
Food for thought: Could the rape suggestion be a strawman?
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potato
huh? I got what Belle said, but you confused me with the strawman question.
"great leaps of illogic and fantasy some folks will go to in order to defend the man they worship"... they can't help but excuse the most base of behaviors in their object of worship, because if they don't, he will not be worthy of worship.
seemed pretty plain. define worship: holding his (vpw's) image in unsullied regard, I will deny all attacks against his character, be they theft, plagiarism, drunkeness, lying... even rape. that's what his worshippers do.
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shazdancer
The point of reading the rape threads is that there are people who excuse what Wierwille did because he taught "The Word like it hasn't been known since the first century," and therefore, we are to overlook his "faults" because he did something so good. After all, he was only human.
If I learned math from a teacher who later molested a student, should I give up what I learned about math? No. But should I be thankful to the point of excusing the teacher's molestation, because he taught me math?
The Wierwille "worshippers," IMO, want to elevate VPW to a status above accountability. MOG-dom should give him a free pass. Read the Mike threads, where he felt that God chose him especially because he was a renegade and a free thinker.
When Wierwille raped, molested, verbally abused, drank to excess, and systematically plagiarized (sorry to put these all in a list, they are not equal), he was not acting like a MOG, a superhuman, or even a human. As far as I'm concerned, this was pretty sub-human behavior. And gratitude for things learned should not extend to excusing evil.
Regards,
Shaz
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NewParadigm
"The point of reading the rape threads is that there are people who excuse what Wierwille did because he taught "The Word like it hasn't been known since the first century," and therefore, we are to overlook his "faults" because he did something so good. After all, he was only human. "
""great leaps of illogic and fantasy some folks will go to in order to defend the man they worship"... they can't help but excuse the most base of behaviors in their object of worship, because if they don't, he will not be worthy of worship.
seemed pretty plain. define worship: holding his (vpw's) image in unsullied regard, I will deny all attacks against his character, be they theft, plagiarism, drunkeness, lying... even rape. that's what his worshippers do."
I have said nothing about excusing VPW.
Attending a TWI offshoot is not synonymous with worshipping VPW , excusing VPW, or condoning rape.
Accepting the content of PFAL is not synonymous with worshipping VPW , excusing VPW, or condoning rape.
I do not worship or excuse VPW. I do not condone or excuse rape.
Believe what you will.
I don't deny that there people who worship 'VPW'.
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Kevlar2000
Or is that everyone without distinction?
You could probably assume some who head up these groups, promote most of the things Mr. Wierwille did, speak of him in reverential tones, regard him as a legitimate "Doctor" (and still refer to him with that one-word honorific), and still make reference to his little "bon mots" as words to live by (especially when they knew of his darker, seamier side), may be indulging in, if not "worship", then undeserved adulation.
Many who attend these groups may also be similarly afflicted.
Everyone? Nah...unless they willingly kiss the Founding MOG's statuette. (I'm still laughing over that one. A statuette? "But...but...it's just because we love him so!")
Well, it certainly doesn't have to be. It depends on how much the offshoot (and the people who run it) is like TWI.That depends. How independently have you considered the information presented in the Power for Abundant Living class series? Or do you have a mindset of "'Doctor' said it...that settles it!"?
Like "all without exception" vs. "all without distinction". Does the mind still glaze over with the brilliance of "Doctor's" juxtaposition in his handling of the Word, or does the lightbulb go off when you realize, "Hey! They mean the same frakin' thing!"
Does even the possibility of entertaining the thought, "Maybe the whole Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, isn't the revealed Word and Will of God," fill you with dread, self-loathing and an irrational fear that you might soil yourself in condemnation and sin-conciousness?
To me, asking questions about what is conventionally accepted is the beginning of knowledge, starting with its most basic, foundational tenets.
Especially if the group which chiefly expounded those tenets is in the toilet, spiritually and ethically speaking.
And, knowing the depths of how people have been abused and degraded by "Doctor" Wierwille, why wouldn't you question everything the man ever said or did?
To those who would accept PFAL without deeper reflection, and would accept those who re-package and promote it, I would only say
Caveat emptor - Let the buyer beware.
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NewParadigm
That depends. How independently have you considered the information presented in the Power for Abundant Living class series?
Enough for my satisfaction.
Or do you have a mindset of "'Doctor' said it...that settles it!"?
No. Trust me.
And, knowing the depths of how people have been abused and degraded by "Doctor" Wierwille, why wouldn't you question everything the man ever said or did?
I have. But I realize that much of what he taught did not originate with him. It took me some time to see this.
To those who would accept PFAL without deeper reflection, and would accept those who re-package and promote it, I would only say
Caveat emptor - Let the buyer beware.
That is good advice for everyone, everywhere. (without exception/without distinction)
Thanks for your reply.
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excathedra
i believe the revelation changed to WITH distinction
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NewParadigm
Belle,
I missed your point at first. I see that you are answering my question as to what constitutes worshipping VPW.
Basically I agree with you - I have met people such as this.
My point is that if I, or anyone else, accepts PFAL as good teaching, or attends an 'offshoot' does not mean that we worship, condone, or excuse VPW of anything.
Thanks for your input.
Always teaching, aren't you.
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excathedra
it's my gift
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NewParadigm
It will make room for you.
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