Guns

[rascal]

On the *Gangs* thread there were some people that seemed really offended with the idea of folks being armed.

One of the fellows in chat seemed to be quite disturbed at the idea of people carrying fire arms.

There seems to be this perception of mindless the public carrying guns firing indiscriminantly at shadows.

I wondered if folks in general know what is actually required to carry a gun.

I recently accompanied a friend who fears for her safety from a soon to be ex son in law to a gun safety class. She lives way out in the county and the police can not possibly protect her. She did the responsible thing. She purchased a fire arm and then went to the gun safety course that is required before one can apply for a permit.

That course covers safety, legal issues, and practical application.

It was an all day course and there was a waiting list to apply.

Among other things, we were instructed that in order to fire our weapon we have to be in *eminent danger of physical harm or death* in order to not be charged with a crime afterwards.

We learned that IF we ever draw our weapon and fire and EVEN if it is found to be justified, we had darned well better plan on having to dish out 100, 000 dollars in legal fees in defense of ourselves.

IF we ever draw and fire our weapon in a case of justified self defense and we miss...inadvertantly causing property damage, injuring a bystander or killing an innocent person. We will lose everything that we own in being sued for damages in civil court.

All sobering reasons to maintain a cool head and composure.

In order to apply for a pemit in our state, you have to be finger printed in order to ensure that you have no criminal back ground. You have to have proof of having attended a state certified safety course, (which is quite costly as well as very time consuming) you have to pay a hefty fee, and you have to wait several weeks, maybe even moths to recieve your permit, and it has to be renewed on a regular basis to ensure that your legal status has not changed.

In short, I am just trying to clear up the misconception that people who carry are not necessary gun toting loonies looking for any excuse to blow somebody they don`t like away.

It is a time consuming, thought provoking, and very expensive process. One that is not entered lightly, or without serious consideration to ones responsibility when one makes this decision.

I hope that maybe in explaining the process a little bit that it might make people a little less afraid of the idea of responsible citizens who are simply trying to protect themselves.

[oldiesman]

I am with you Rascal.

Everyone who qualifies should be able to carry a firearm.

I have a NY State carry permit, but I can't carry my weapon into NYC. Isn't that insane?

And there ought to be state reciprocity.

One permit for all the states, like a drivers license is good anywhere.

[copenhagen]

There is nothing wrong with having a gun as long as you know how and when to use it.

If it comes down to me and my family and I have my gun on me,( which I am licnsed to carry).

You lose.

People especially woman need to know how to defend their body and homes.

copenhagen

[rascal]

I agree guys, that was the point that I was trying to make. It is possible to carry a fire arm and be responsible.

Most people who go through the arduous, and expensive process of obtaining, being educated, and getting licensed, are conscientious. These are not the folks that you need to be afraid of.

I study martial arts as well, and the legal requirements and ramifications are the same. If I were to cause injury to someone without *emminant fear of serious physical harm or death*, I would be prosecuted.

The FIRST thing that we learn is not to be where trouble is....

second: leave if possible,

third: try to talk your way out,

fourth: try to run, f

fifth: only after all else is exhausted.... defend.

Only after all other recourse have been tried, are you permitted to protect yourself.

Oldies, here in Tenn, there is a list of the states that *reciprocate* where one is allowed to carry their gun.

Edited January 17, 2007 by rascal

[Belle]

I love the security of having a gun and knowing that I'm a d@mn good shot, too.

I think, too, that the bad guys think twice about messin' with someone they know or think may be armed.

[oldiesman]

That is a proven fact, Belle.

Do you remember when firearms were required in Kennesaw , GA?

Crime plummeted.

Must be a great place to live. :)

[Tom Strange]

I love the security of having a gun and knowing that I'm a d@mn good shot, too.

Belle, I apologize profusely for anything I may have ever said to you that you may have taken offense to! :)

[Belle]

The only gun I have for you, my friend, is a melted snow-cone gun! :P

[CoolWaters]

I don't have a problem with guns.

I have a problem with people thinking that using a gun solves the problem.

Big difference.

[Tom Strange]

Touche' CW... my sister in law (the sister of 'she who must be obeyed') wants to get a permit and a gun... believe me when I tell you that she is the last person on earth that should even be anywhere near a gun... even if it has no bullets... yet, there are no psychological tests that are required to gain a permit... though for the life of me I can't understand why... it seems to me that there should be some sort of psychological test so that a profile can be established...

If she gets a permit, I'm going to have to seriously consider moving far, far away...

[rascal]

Well it certainly solves the *problem* of being in emminent danger of physical harm or death <_<

Edited January 17, 2007 by rascal

[rascal]

I suppose Tom, but then too, there ought to be phychological tests to determine ones suitability to parent before having children, or physical tests to determine ones genetic suitability, in utero tests to determine a fetus` general health before allowing it to come to term....etc.

Yes, you have a few nut jobs that will invariably be able to get through the filtration system, that are unsuitable. But I hardly see that as an excuse to deny the reasonable, responsible adults who chose to be law abiding citizens the ability to protect themselves and their families if they so desire untill we do have a reliable psycological exam process in place.

Is my friend and her daughter to be at the mercy of the lunatic ex that is trying to kill them? They live a mile back off of the road in a secluded area. There is no way that law enforcement could get there in time to help. He isn`t intimidated by that, he might however be detered when Judy levels that gun and tells him to get the he ll away from the daughter and off of her property the next time he is trying to hurt them.

[Tom Strange]

I suppose Tom, but then too, there ought to be phychological tests to determine ones suitability to parent before having children, or physical tests to determine ones genetic suitability, in utero tests to determine a fetus` general health before allowing it to come to term....etc.

now Rascal! ...there's a big difference there and you know it... ESPECIALLY with the two tests you mentioned, they're naturally occuring by-products of being a human... carrying a gun is not.

I'm sure your friend would be able to get a permit under that system, fearing for your safety and the safety of your loved ones wouldn't be a deal breaker IMO... I'd probably wager it would be the number one reason for having a permit and a gun...

On the other hand, my sister in law "just wants one"...

[CoolWaters]

I used to know a person who had a cancel/carry permit (they had been in law enforcement). I thought I knew this person well enough to allow me and my daughter to take a little weekend getaway with this person and their children. After all, what could happen...this person was packing.

I didn't know this person smoked pot...a whole helluvalot of pot...and drank nightly to the point of passing out. I also didn't know this person had a vicious mean streak a mile long. These were things this person showed only at home.

One night on that trip, I found myself and my daughter at her mercy and hurtling down the road at 85 mph while this lunatic went ape over some wrong perpetrated by some ex boyfriend. She was stoned, getting drunk, and PO'd to the max. But she fully believed that she was in total control of herself and her vehicle.

Thankfully she had to pee. My daughter and I got out at the station where she stopped to pee...and did not get back in that car.

The fool pulled out her gun and started waving it around and screaming that I'd better do what she said or else.

The clerk behind the register saw it all, dialed 911, and got me and my daughter and other customers inside and in the storage room after locking the entrance doors.

Cops came and took the woman in.

Not one shot was fired.

I kept thinking, "OMG!!!! This could become a real shootout if anybody else has a gun and decides to take matters into their own hands!"

I was far more terrified of a full blown shootout than I was of that woman capping a round at me or my daughter. We could maybe survive being shot. We would not have survived one of the gas pumps blowing.

[rascal]

God save us from your sister in law. I misunderstood, I thought you were saying that my friend shouldn`t be allowed to have one (which is why I went to the gun safety course to begin with)

[Tom Strange]

God save us from your sister in law. I misunderstood, I thought you were saying that my friend shouldn`t be allowed to have one (which is why I went to the gun safety course to begin with)

I might be moving to your neighborhood soon!

[Belle]

Tom,

Most likely she'll either do something stupid and the cops will take the gun away (hopefully the 'something stupid' won't involve hurting any other person) or once she gets it, she'll be so scared that she'll never load it or do anything with it.

Hopefully that'll be the case anyway. OR she's just all talk and will never really get around to it. Can't "she who must be obeyed" exert some power over the siblings too? It seems to work on you. :P

I might be moving to your neighborhood soon!

I've got "connections" down here, Tom. LOTS of friends of friends who work at the theme parks, if ya knowwhatimean...

[rascal]

So, that lady was a lunatic...shrug

That should not prevent my friend or myself as law abiding citizens (meaning that we have completed the back ground checks, recieved the appropriate training, legally applied for and recieved permits) the opportunity to responsibly purchase a gun for self protection.

If my friend felt like the law enforcement (who by the way were the ones who recommended that my friend do precisely this course of action) cannot protect her from the dangerous man who wants to bully and harasss defenseless women, then she should have the means at her disposal to legally do so.

[Tom Strange]

She doesn't need one for a gun in the home (or on her property) does she Rascal?

...and Belle! ...do you really think I can get a job at "one of the local theme parks" ???

[Belle]

Sure you could, Tom! They even have snow cone stands there, but what I was referring to was getting free tickets. ^_^ It really pays to have friends in the right places.

Rascal, the police wholeheartedly support responsible people getting the training, permits and guns they need/want for their protection (and even just for fun). Heck, half of them collect guns just for chits and giggles.

In situations like your girlfriend's, they are limited to suggesting that sort of thing for so many reasons. Like abuse cases - man times their hands are tied until someone does really get hurt and sometimes by then, sadly, it's too late.

Bad guys have no rules. They don't obey the law, but the laws keep getting tighter and tighter on law enforcement to the point where too many times all they can do is suggest people learn to protect themselves. :( That was one of the most frustrating things I had to see when I was married to Meister.

[Tom Strange]

Belle, making snow cones is just one of my many talents...

(they don't have any emoticons with the eyebrows moving up and down like Groucho)

[CoolWaters]

So, that lady was a lunatic...shrug

That should not prevent my friend or myself as law abiding citizens (meaning that we have completed the back ground checks, recieved the appropriate training, legally applied for and recieved permits) the opportunity to responsibly purchase a gun for self protection.

If my friend felt like the law enforcement (who by the way were the ones who recommended that my friend do precisely this course of action) cannot protect her from the dangerous man who wants to bully and harasss defenseless women, then she should have the means at her disposal to legally do so.

No, it should not prevent anybody the opportunity to responsibly purchase a gun for self protection.

I didn't say it should. Didn't even intimate it should. Not even a glossed over insinuation, either! :)

I simply related a story to exemplify how stupid some people can get with a gun given the right set of circumstances. Just like you gave an example of how a person could be in great need of a gun.

I lived in the bush in Alaska long enough to know what good a gun can be. In fact, I think that people who live in areas such as where you live or where I've lived out in the bush are foolish not to have a gun for protection...from wild animals of the mammalian sort...including human beings. Typically people in these situations have a whole lot of respect for life itself and comprehend how to handle themselves around guns...either because they were raised with the knowledge or learned the knowledge in a manner such as you have described.

Hunting is another good reason to have a gun. I'm not much for sports hunters, but those who hunt to feed themselves are a pretty impressive group of people, imo.

Then there are two types of 'wilderness' people: the ArkieRons of the world and the Crazed Bushmen of the world.

If I were to ever read a news story about ArkieRon shooting an intruder, I'd feel that ArkieRon probably did everything else possible first and shot the intruder as a last ditch effort. Why would I feel that way? I've read his posts for a long time and I have never read anything he has said that would make me think he had gone off half-cocked. I also have read how far up in the hills Ron is...and I would know that anybody up there messing around with Ron and his son were deadly serious.

[OnionEater]

In Maine do you not need a reason to carry and you do not need to take a class. It is your right to carry but only if you are not a felon.

I have a permit to carry a conceiled loaded weapon and I have had it for over 30 years. But I have never used it. No need to. I got it just in case I wanted to someday.

ps: I am a well armed LIBERAL

Edited January 17, 2007 by OnionEater

[oldiesman]

Here's an interesting question:

Are you in favor of a Vermont-style carry weapon law across the country?

Vermont Carry Law

It may have greatly helped Igor Hutorsky.

[Ham]

ps: I am a well armed LIBERAL

ahh.. the best of two worlds!

Edited January 17, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni